Num

Joined:: 14 Jun 2007
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Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

It's gone further than that blue.....nothing there at all now

My dad went through a stage of combing across, I have promised myself not to indulge in this tradition

A wise decision blue.....I shaved mine (head that is) at the fist sign of thinning ...best thing I ever did,it's so much easier than all that combing and brushing and washing and nonsense

Too HotSuper human rambling

Joined:: 7 Oct 2005
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flower411 wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:

1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK

Where would you get your coal from?

Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.

So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?

The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.

Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

You were referring I believe to Australia and Poland and they did not subsidise. Poland had cheap labour and Australia had cheap extraction

Too HotSuper human rambling

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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

flower411 wrote:

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......

It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..

As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..

Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!

It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .

I think you will find that we have all lost out.

We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.

I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.

You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.

Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't have similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

What a joke and just how arrogant. I think we tried this once before as an excuse for colonising. If you recall we went to "civilise" the world and tell them how they should live their lives.

Really - you ought to visit the factories of India and China and really try to understand the global economy. Asking them to raise their standards of living so as not to create unfair working advantages is really a joke.

LizaleanrobGodlike

Joined:: 27 Mar 2007
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

It's gone further than that blue.....nothing there at all now

My dad went through a stage of combing across, I have promised myself not to indulge in this tradition

A wise decision blue.....I shaved mine (head that is) at the fist sign of thinning ...best thing I ever did,it's so much easier than all that combing and brushing and washing and nonsense

ditto

Too HotSuper human rambling

Joined:: 7 Oct 2005
Posts:: 764
Location:: North West

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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

flower411 wrote:

Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

I was a Navigator in the Merchant Navy and I thought it was great that the Union negotiated that for every day we had at sea we had a day in the UK (on full pay). Some years later when i had been made redundant and all the Company ships sold to foreign flag operators I wondered at the wisdom of negotiating such wonderful perks.
The problem is that the economy IS global - like it or not and we have to be globally competitive.

Yes, it would be nice to have the same job all our life and get steady and reliable increases but that is a fantasy world that will never be a reality because of the way our world works. In micro economics a company down the road that can be more efficient than you can cut its prices and give you problems - the same argument applies around the globe. Why do you think call centres are now predominantly in India - cost saving of course.

I am sorry Staggs but you have a puritanical and fantasy view of how life should be - but it just is not like that at all in the real world. We all have to accept that we will have jobs, do well, get sacked and have to start over leaner, meaner and more competitive. These are the natural laws of survival and unfortunately in this country we have believed for too long that we are owed something better. We are not owed anything and everything we do has to be hard earned and fought for.

As an aside - this very argument is being battled out now between Unite who wanted to maintain outdtated working practices which were effectively making BA non profitable since the arrival of the low cost operators. Unite will lose this battle and if they don't the demise of BA will be a humiliating day for this country. But really, the fact is that BA are no longer the worlds favourite airline - Ryanair is. Ryaniar run a tight ship, pay shit wages and have poor working conditions but they carry lots of people cos they can do it cheap. - ie economically competitive.

And you believe that the only way to compete is a constant erosion of pay and working conditions ?? where do we stop with this downward spiral ? we live in country where call centres are being moved back from India because they're cheaper to run over here,whilst I congratulate our Indian brothers for raising their standards to above ours I despair of the fact we have fallen so low, your attitude is one of the reasons why...you may know your place in the world and be content..I for one will not be content whilst the average working man in this and any other country continues to fall further and further behind .You have no need to be sorry my view is neither puritanical or a fantasy,the idea that there is a 'natural law' to an artificial man made order of things tells me one thing only ,you are beaten you are defeated by 'the man ' and have bought his lies hook line and sinker....we are, you're right, not owed anything, we have to earn and fight for whatever we get,the trades union movement has been fighting for and earning rights for the common man for hundreds of years and you're prepared to just throw them away without a word of complaint.....shame on you

Snap s3xy....crossed in posting

Who said that? I am talking about being competitive in a global economy and controlling costs. If you ran a window cleaning business and a guy up the road started up in competition and undercut you by 50% what would you do about it? You would have to react or go out of business.
This started to happen to many traditional industries in our country in the 1970's and continues to this day. If you are not competitive you die and unfortunately it is a natural law of evolution in the jungle and in business as well.
Sometimes you have to see the writing on the wall and accept that change has to come about because the world is constantly changing around us and these days the world is a very small place indeed.

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
Posts:: 3944
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Lizaleanrob wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

It's gone further than that blue.....nothing there at all now

My dad went through a stage of combing across, I have promised myself not to indulge in this tradition

A wise decision blue.....I shaved mine (head that is) at the fist sign of thinning ...best thing I ever did,it's so much easier than all that combing and brushing and washing and nonsense

ditto

Not shaving it yet, but do use the clippers with no gaurd on

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
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Too Hot wrote:

I am talking about being competitive in a global economy and controlling costs. If you ran a window cleaning business and a guy up the road started up in competition and undercut you by 50% what would you do about it? You would have to react or go out of business.
This started to happen to many traditional industries in our country in the 1970's and continues to this day. If you are not competitive you die and unfortunately it is a natural law of evolution in the jungle and in business as well.
Sometimes you have to see the writing on the wall and accept that change has to come about because the world is constantly changing around us and these days the world is a very small place indeed.

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

Joined:: 14 Jun 2007
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Too Hot wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

This is no suggestion of colonisation...the trade union movement is a global one...the N.U.M. Who we've been dicussing were notable for the aid they offered many foriegn unions (both in campaign ing and financially) they were not alone,it is a suggestion that we should help the poor and oppressed inother countries to organise and raise their standards of living

At the risk of sounding trite there is little comparison to be made between a global business and a local window cleaner,however...why were we undercut?what is the significant factor that allows other economies to undercut ours?....Lower wages and a poorer standard of living..how then using your model do we compete ? Lower wages and a poorer standard of living...For who ?..the working classes..management and board menbers will be getting bonuses for increasing competitiveness.What then do I suggest ?global co-operation between the working classes of all nations to collectively raise awarenes,wages and living standards.Your alternative is an ever downward spiral into poverty.So how does the first window cleaner respond to being undercut ?lower his prices ? And the others response? Lower prices...Result both go bankrupt and the large multinational conglomerate of glass hygienists step in and charge twice the original price...they have no competition you see.

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
Posts:: 3944
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

I have competitors who work around me and undercut me, I overcome this with a better/more professional service, I make myself/business more attractive to the consumer

Too HotSuper human rambling

Joined:: 7 Oct 2005
Posts:: 764
Location:: North West

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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Too Hot wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

There is no difference between the window cleaner and a global economy - none at all. What should have happened in the 1970's is that Austin Rover (as an example - but transfer concept to Steel works, shipping industry, coal mining, ship building etc etc) could have reacted the same way that BMW and Mercedes did and responded with efficient production of high quality vehicles offering an edge over what was being mass produced cheaper in Japan. In the UK, the Unions resisted all attempts at mass mechanisation and modernisation if it meant the loss of one job. Result - shit cars, shit service, appalling industrial relations and now a complete lack of a motor industry "owned" in this country.
We can't change the world because it does not suit us just and our way of comfortable living we have to be prepared to react and change and sometimes that change is not pallatable. Many of our industries simply could not change because of the Union stranglehold over them and as a result many of those industries are now gone from this country.
I would have thought this lesson is as clear as daylight to anyone 45 years and over who has lived and worked through the last thirty years or so.

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

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Too Hot wrote:

There is no difference between the window cleaner and a global economy - none at all. What should have happened in the 1970's is that Austin Rover (as an example - but transfer concept to Steel works, shipping industry, coal mining, ship building etc etc) could have reacted the same way that BMW and Mercedes did and responded with efficient production of high quality vehicles offering an edge over what was being mass produced cheaper in Japan. In the UK, the Unions resisted all attempts at mass mechanisation and modernisation if it meant the loss of one job. Result - shit cars, shit service, appalling industrial relations and now a complete lack of a motor industry "owned" in this country.
We can't change the world because it does not suit us just and our way of comfortable living we have to be prepared to react and change and sometimes that change is not pallatable. Many of our industries simply could not change because of the Union stranglehold over them and as a result many of those industries are now gone from this country.
I would have thought this lesson is as clear as daylight to anyone 45 years and over who has lived and worked through the last thirty years or so.

I'm 46 the lesson I've learned over the last thirty years is that those who lose out to 'competition' are the working classes..and the result is an underclass of unemployed sneered at victims of global economics...I think this is unacceptable in whatever country occurs....I've put forward a simple (simplistic even)outline of a few measures that I believe may help....You may see waving, I see drowning

Too HotSuper human rambling

Joined:: 7 Oct 2005
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Unfortunately, I think that your idealistic and probably honourable ideas will be lost in the reality of the harsh world. In many countries you starve if you don't work - this is the step above actually spending your time hunting game to provide for your food.
In this country we have been shielded from these excesses because we are a civilised country but we must still feel some pain when people more hungry than we are go into direct competition with us. This is the harsh reality of the global economy and the way that the majority in the world truly have to fight to feed themselves.
This is not about accepting a downward spiral of wages - but what happened in this country four or five years with the massive influx of plumbers and electricians from the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia? These people were prepared to work longer hours and for less money than the UK nationals - something had to give in that equation - what was it?

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
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The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

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Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
Posts:: 3944
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

To my simple logic, some is surely better than none

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

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Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

To my simple logic, some is surely better than none

And to mine it depends on wether you're one of those 'some' or not

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
Posts:: 3944
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

To my simple logic, some is surely better than none

And to mine it depends on wether you're one of those 'some' or not

To my mind that logic is flawed, as you would sacrifice the chance of the some with the end result that everybody looses

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

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Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

To my simple logic, some is surely better than none

And to mine it depends on wether you're one of those 'some' or not

To my mind that logic is flawed, as you would sacrifice the chance of the some with the end result that everybody looses

I would say that not one worker has to lose...it is the boardroom and shareholders of a company that require competition...the workers don't...they require a livelihood..it's the same in all companies in all countries....why then should they suffer to line the pockets of their 'masters' ?

Bluefish2009Godlike

Joined:: 20 Jun 2009
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Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

Staggerlee_BB wrote:

Bluefish2009 wrote:

The working class at BMW, did they loose out, at least some still have jobs, where as we have no car indutry left at all

Surely the lessen is, we did it the wrong way, they did it the right way

To my simple logic, some is surely better than none

And to mine it depends on wether you're one of those 'some' or not

To my mind that logic is flawed, as you would sacrifice the chance of the some with the end result that everybody looses

I know this very knoble sentiment, but its not happening, it will never happen, so we have to make it work the best way we can so the least amount of people suffer

Staggerlee_BBGodlike

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Too Hot wrote:

In many countries you starve if you don't work

I find it unfortunate that we in the western world seem to accept this as an unchangeable fact...it isn't and the answer doesn't lie in us eroding our standard of living...people starving in this country will not allieviante the suffering of those in others,the only way to do this is to enable them to improve their standard of living.

Too Hot wrote:

we must still feel some pain when people more hungry than we are go into direct competition with us. This is the harsh reality of the global economy and the way that the majority in the world truly have to fight to feed themselves.

This is indeed the reality of our world...not the inevitable reality but just the present reality.Similar conditions existed in this country at one time...WE the working classes changed that,and again the answer is not to give up what the unions and their members have fought for, but to assist and enable others to achieve the same.

Too Hot wrote:

This is not about accepting a downward spiral of wages - but what happened in this country four or five years with the massive influx of plumbers and electricians from the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia? These people were prepared to work longer hours and for less money than the UK nationals - something had to give in that equation - what was it?

Why did those plumbers,electricians etc. Flock here ?Higher wages and better conditions...what then if similar wages and conditions were available in their own countries ? Would they still have come?would some of us make the opposite journey?
The answer isn't and never will be to erode our standard of living in the name of competition.
The answer is to raise the standard of living worldwide in the name of brotherhood and freedom.

There is an old slogan..."workers of the world unite,you have nothing to lose but your chains." it was and still is true.

Bluefish2009 wrote:

I know this very knoble sentiment, but its not happening, it will never happen, so we have to make it work the best way we can so the least amount of people suffer

I think the above serves as answer to your point too blue.

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