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Joewally
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 66
0 miles · Merseyside
Forum
Quote by Resonance
wrote some good stuff
It is good to see someone putting over the whole story. Stating that there were so many faults during the day and years before. I am glad the post was not just a police bashing exercise but a look at all the authorities and the fans involved. All of them that aggravated the problem need to hang their head in shame.
On the other hand, some of the police can hold their head up high as their actions saved lives as well as the fans saved lives. Alternatively, some of the fans should hang their head in shame as well as the police and local authorities.
Dave_Notts
Without a doubt Dave, another one of the injustices about the disaster is the actions of many police and emergency services on that day, not to mention many of the people of Sheffield who opened their doors to the hurt, confused, wounded and afraid, who have been overlooked somewhat by the whitewash of misinformation that followed.
I don't know about the releasing of the official documents. To me this seems a half arsed gesture. Aimed at moving towards opening a new enquiry, but still falling well short of it. I don't think it will achieve anything but open up new avenues of hurt and anger for those most closely involved. It will increase calls for a new enquiry, but I think if the Government were going to do that, they would have done that long ago. This is simply a measure of calculated appeasement, timed for maximum publicity I hasten to add, rather than a genuine attempt at putting the record straight.
couldnt agree more, and any realsing of documents will of course be the edited version.
Quote by Mike2mike
GRRRR Had to happen..ffs i have to work late in newcastle on saturday, so this probably means i wont be in attendance i say probably because if i can make it happen i will.... and ladies don't forget this is the last time i'll be coming before my birthday..(subtle hint) i love birthday pressies
Nooo! Dude, how am I supposed to party without the 'Original Party Animal' indahouse? Get back here, Joe, I can't handle all these lovely ladies on my own.
Especially with Jet lag...
well what can i do? the paymasters insist i work....
GRRRR Had to happen..ffs i have to work late in newcastle on saturday, so this probably means i wont be in attendance i say probably because if i can make it happen i will.... and ladies don't forget this is the last time i'll be coming before my birthday..(subtle hint) i love birthday pressies
Quote by ScoobySmudge
i cant get world at war to run on my hp hdx 64 bit vista, it has a blu ray drive, i wonder if thats the reason?
i've searched online but nowt doing, even tho i did get it to install, it won't install or run now
Just becaust you've got 64 Vista doesn't mean you can play it. You need to look at what Video card you've got instaled. Basicaly look on the back of the box and it'll tell you what spec your computer has to be to be able to play the game. I say video card because that's usually the main cause for not being able to play a game, but other things like processor speed and memory (not hard drive memory) also count.
Any probs then message me and i'll try and help you out
hi thx but its not the card nor the system quality, its more to do with on the cod website it says it wont run on 64 bit vista, however; i have had it running Its more to do with the blu ray dvd drive i think?
Just to add, i never said justice in my ealier post simply truth...
PRIME MINISTER: THE TRUTH ABOUT REDS FANS
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has spoken exclusively to LFC TV about his admiration for the 'magnificent' Liverpool fans who fought to save lives at Hillsborough and claimed those who attempted to blame them for the disaster had been proven wrong.
PRIME MINISTER: THE TRUTH ABOUT REDS FANS
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has spoken exclusively to LFC TV about his admiration for the 'magnificent' Liverpool fans who fought to save lives at Hillsborough and claimed those who attempted to blame them for the disaster had been proven wrong.
Quote by Resonance
What kind of 'Justice' are you talking about?
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
I'm putting my ire to one side to point out the inaccuracies in this statement, quoted from the findings of the Taylor Report and Public Inquest following the tragedy.
1. "Three times as many fans travelled to Hillsborough." - So you are saying because people travel in the hope of securing a ticket, somehow makes this pre-meditated by Liverpool fans? A collective suicide mission? Get a grip. This happens at any big game played on a neutral ground when big clubs with large support are involved. I would have thought living in Greater Manchester you may have noted this given that Manchester United and City are on your doorstep.
2. "The Influx of fans was expected and the turnstiles were heavily policed." - Indeed it should have been, the same two teams played in the same competition at the same ground a year earlier. However on that occasion fans without tickets were filtered by a series of police checks approaching the ground. Those without tickets never got close enough to the ground. Those who did queued and got in under the guidance of the police and matchday people. I know. I went. The following year, there were, under the direct orders of the Officer in Charge, Duckinfield, NO filters in place, meaning that ALL the Liverpool fans, those with tickets and those without were congregated outside the ground in a few hundred metres by the turnstiles. Causing a huge crush outside the ground.
3. "The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened)" - The "other reports" you suggest are the findings of the independent public enquiry and Taylor report where it emerged that the gate was not, as reported "Charged by drunken fans and forced open" but instead an order was given by the officer in charge, Duckinfield again, to open the exit gate. This single incident created the deadly massive crush. Particularly because the "heavy police presence" didn't include as it had the previous year, due to the wisdom of the officer in charge, police stationed inside the ground on the entries to the sections of stadium, to direct fans into the relatively empty end sections of the Leppings Lane stand and to close entry to the stand when it became full.
4. "Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded." - The tragedy unfolded because the crowd surged into already full sections of the ground that were not manned by the police as they were the previous season, through a gate that had been ordered to be opened by the police officer in charge, a decision which the Taylor Report concluded was "an error of the first magnitude". The reason the gate had to be opened was because too many fans were outside the ground, this was because the policing organisation and filtration of the fans to and around the ground was laughable when compared to the previous season. One must ask the question, if it worked the previous year so well, when just as many fans turned up without tickets, why was the proceedure changed the following year? The answer is because the person in charge decided it should. That person was Duckinfield of South Yorkshire Police.
5. "Bad behaviour by a large group of fans", "Pack Mentality","Masses of liverpool fans who defied..." Oh please... It is like reading a tenth rate Kelvin McKenzie piece. Show me the evidence of this, or indeed of the fans being drunk and disorderly as was widely reported at the time, and then summarily dismissed by the findings of the public enquiry and Taylor Report. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that an uruly mob of Drunken Liverpool fans caused this. To suggest so even in the slightest terms is offensive and has been proven to be totally inaccurate.
6. "My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently." - and Liverpool fans have done a lot of soul searching over this and other events over many, many years. However Liverpool fans did not act any differently to how fans of any other club would have done on that day. The only difference to the year before, which passed off without incident was the organisation and quality of the policing. I don't condone those fans who went without tickets, I don't absolve the chancers who thought nicking into a game for free would be great and dandy. However I don't think that they thought their actions would directly result in the deaths of 96 people. Their actions could easily have been counteracted, as it had been the year before, by effective policing.
However that isn't to do with the notion of justice. The whole notion of the justice is that as people lay dying and the events unravelled, what followed was a co-ordinated attempt by South Yorkshire police to cover up their ineptitude and blame the whole tragedy on the fans. Policemens statements edited to negate any negative comments about the policing that day, Duckinfield admitting he lied about ordering the gate to be opened initially, admitting he froze when he realised the magnitude of what he had caused by his decisions and then ordering the cover up to try and save himself whilst blaming Liverpool fans, including ordering his officers to question bereaved relatives on the drinking habits of their deceased "He liked to have a few before games didn't he?" as said to one mother over her deceased 14 year old son. To this day this has never been admitted officially and the notion of blame is still open to conjecture.
I'm not proud of the actions of many Liverpool fans that day. Those who charged into the ground without tickets must share in the sorry events that day. However it does not disguise the fact that this could have easily, EASILY been stopped by effective police organisation, as happened the year previously.
Oh and one final point, as people lay dying in the ground, 44 ambulances were stationed outside Hillsborough. ONE was allowed into the ground by the police in charge to treat the wounded and dying.
So yes, Justice is warranted. Not in terms of an eye for an eye, but an admission, not of guilt, but of culpability. An admittance that the South Yorkshire Police, or more rightly the officer in charge, made the wrong decision time and time they then tried to lie and distort the facts and even the observations of their own officers to "frame" Liverpool fans for the tragedy. Finally justice would be an acceptance that had they made the right choices, as they had the year before under the guidance of a more experienced Football Officer, then 96 people may well have lived.
So, with respect officer of the law. Not a fine post. Not a fine post at all. I feel I am within my rights to disagree.
Well done well put,
"We" the Anfield faithful; always sing you'll never walk alone before every game however, the one on satuday had an added meaning, we have also been allowed to demonstrate our feeling towards south Yorks police who seemingly deliberately covered up their blundering handling of the crowd control that day and did display across the kop when we played arsenal 3? years ago "TRUTH" that we so seek,
Like someone on tv said yesterday i think it was Alan Hanson it took such a sad thing to make football a better game to go and watch, only for this, there woul not be seating in a football ground - the Tayor Report.
I doubt there was a family on merseyside that didn't know someone who fell or was badly affected,
sorry if this edges towards political - by all means remove it if this is so... jw
96 YNWA
Like someone on tv said yesterday i think it was Alan Hanson it took such a sad thing to make football a better game to go and watch, only for this, there woul not be seating in a football ground - the Tayor Report.
I doubt there was a family on merseyside that didn't know someone who fell or was badly affected,
sorry if this edges towards political - by all means remove it if this is so... jw
96 YNWA
