................................................................................................
the silence was respected well today by both sets of fans,
Respect
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96 YNWA
Sex God
Yes, just watched it on MOTD. To be fair, it usually is but this year especially poignant.
Orgasminator
yes well respected... Fortunately this fellow lancashire side has no boo boys... Good to see compassion and respect still in the game!
Sex God
Would someone like to explain what you're all talking about please because I've not a clue. 
EDIT: And I'm nosey!
EDIT: And I'm nosey!
Sex God
Quote by Dirtygirly
Would someone like to explain what you're all talking about please because I've not a clue.
EDIT: And I'm nosey!
YNWA - You'll Never Walk Alone, the Liverpool FC anthem
96 - the 96 people who died in the Hillsborough disaster 20 years ago this week.
There was a very moving and impeccably observed 2 mins silence and YNWA singalong for them at the start of Liverpool's home game yesterday.
Sex God
Aha... thank you nola! 
I saw it on TV last night and it was indeed amazing! :thumbup:
I saw it on TV last night and it was indeed amazing! :thumbup:
Sex God
DG
I found this for you, but there are several reports.
Please note I know nothing about football as such so this may not be the best site / info for you.
Sex God
Thanks Sarah... I know what it is, I just didn't get it from all the letters and abbreviations.
Sex God
You'll never walk alone
YNWA
YNWA
"We" the Anfield faithful; always sing you'll never walk alone before every game however, the one on satuday had an added meaning, we have also been allowed to demonstrate our feeling towards south Yorks police who seemingly deliberately covered up their blundering handling of the crowd control that day and did display across the kop when we played arsenal 3? years ago "TRUTH" that we so seek,
Like someone on tv said yesterday i think it was Alan Hanson it took such a sad thing to make football a better game to go and watch, only for this, there woul not be seating in a football ground - the Tayor Report.
I doubt there was a family on merseyside that didn't know someone who fell or was badly affected,
sorry if this edges towards political - by all means remove it if this is so... jw
96 YNWA
Like someone on tv said yesterday i think it was Alan Hanson it took such a sad thing to make football a better game to go and watch, only for this, there woul not be seating in a football ground - the Tayor Report.
I doubt there was a family on merseyside that didn't know someone who fell or was badly affected,
sorry if this edges towards political - by all means remove it if this is so... jw
96 YNWA
Sex God
It was the South Yorkshire Police involved, not West Yorkshire, as Sheffield is in South Yorkshire.
Sex God
What kind of 'Justice' are you talking about?
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
Sex God
Fine post, TooHot.
i can remember exactly where i was that day ... as a chelsea supporter i was standing in the away end watchin chels at leicester , chels had got promotion with record points that season .... and proceeded to lose 2 nil to them , we got legged all the way back to the car ... couldn't do that now lol . we new nothin about what had happened until on the m1 home.... my mate and i were in near tears listening to the radio reports on the way home. A sad day
Sex God
Quote by Too Hot
What kind of 'Justice' are you talking about?
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
I'm putting my ire to one side to point out the inaccuracies in this statement, quoted from the findings of the Taylor Report and Public Inquest following the tragedy.
1. "Three times as many fans travelled to Hillsborough." - So you are saying because people travel in the hope of securing a ticket, somehow makes this pre-meditated by Liverpool fans? A collective suicide mission? Get a grip. This happens at any big game played on a neutral ground when big clubs with large support are involved. I would have thought living in Greater Manchester you may have noted this given that Manchester United and City are on your doorstep.
2. "The Influx of fans was expected and the turnstiles were heavily policed." - Indeed it should have been, the same two teams played in the same competition at the same ground a year earlier. However on that occasion fans without tickets were filtered by a series of police checks approaching the ground. Those without tickets never got close enough to the ground. Those who did queued and got in under the guidance of the police and matchday people. I know. I went. The following year, there were, under the direct orders of the Officer in Charge, Duckinfield, NO filters in place, meaning that ALL the Liverpool fans, those with tickets and those without were congregated outside the ground in a few hundred metres by the turnstiles. Causing a huge crush outside the ground.
3. "The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened)" - The "other reports" you suggest are the findings of the independent public enquiry and Taylor report where it emerged that the gate was not, as reported "Charged by drunken fans and forced open" but instead an order was given by the officer in charge, Duckinfield again, to open the exit gate. This single incident created the deadly massive crush. Particularly because the "heavy police presence" didn't include as it had the previous year, due to the wisdom of the officer in charge, police stationed inside the ground on the entries to the sections of stadium, to direct fans into the relatively empty end sections of the Leppings Lane stand and to close entry to the stand when it became full.
4. "Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded." - The tragedy unfolded because the crowd surged into already full sections of the ground that were not manned by the police as they were the previous season, through a gate that had been ordered to be opened by the police officer in charge, a decision which the Taylor Report concluded was "an error of the first magnitude". The reason the gate had to be opened was because too many fans were outside the ground, this was because the policing organisation and filtration of the fans to and around the ground was laughable when compared to the previous season. One must ask the question, if it worked the previous year so well, when just as many fans turned up without tickets, why was the proceedure changed the following year? The answer is because the person in charge decided it should. That person was Duckinfield of South Yorkshire Police.
5. "Bad behaviour by a large group of fans", "Pack Mentality","Masses of liverpool fans who defied..." Oh please... It is like reading a tenth rate Kelvin McKenzie piece. Show me the evidence of this, or indeed of the fans being drunk and disorderly as was widely reported at the time, and then summarily dismissed by the findings of the public enquiry and Taylor Report. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that an uruly mob of Drunken Liverpool fans caused this. To suggest so even in the slightest terms is offensive and has been proven to be totally inaccurate.
6. "My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently." - and Liverpool fans have done a lot of soul searching over this and other events over many, many years. However Liverpool fans did not act any differently to how fans of any other club would have done on that day. The only difference to the year before, which passed off without incident was the organisation and quality of the policing. I don't condone those fans who went without tickets, I don't absolve the chancers who thought nicking into a game for free would be great and dandy. However I don't think that they thought their actions would directly result in the deaths of 96 people. Their actions could easily have been counteracted, as it had been the year before, by effective policing.
However that isn't to do with the notion of justice. The whole notion of the justice is that as people lay dying and the events unravelled, what followed was a co-ordinated attempt by South Yorkshire police to cover up their ineptitude and blame the whole tragedy on the fans. Policemens statements edited to negate any negative comments about the policing that day, Duckinfield admitting he lied about ordering the gate to be opened initially, admitting he froze when he realised the magnitude of what he had caused by his decisions and then ordering the cover up to try and save himself whilst blaming Liverpool fans, including ordering his officers to question bereaved relatives on the drinking habits of their deceased "He liked to have a few before games didn't he?" as said to one mother over her deceased 14 year old son. To this day this has never been admitted officially and the notion of blame is still open to conjecture.
I'm not proud of the actions of many Liverpool fans that day. Those who charged into the ground without tickets must share in the sorry events that day. However it does not disguise the fact that this could have easily, EASILY been stopped by effective police organisation, as happened the year previously.
Oh and one final point, as people lay dying in the ground, 44 ambulances were stationed outside Hillsborough. ONE was allowed into the ground by the police in charge to treat the wounded and dying.
So yes, Justice is warranted. Not in terms of an eye for an eye, but an admission, not of guilt, but of culpability. An admittance that the South Yorkshire Police, or more rightly the officer in charge, made the wrong decision time and time they then tried to lie and distort the facts and even the observations of their own officers to "frame" Liverpool fans for the tragedy. Finally justice would be an acceptance that had they made the right choices, as they had the year before under the guidance of a more experienced Football Officer, then 96 people may well have lived.
So, with respect officer of the law. Not a fine post. Not a fine post at all. I feel I am within my rights to disagree.
Orgasminator
Quote by Resonance
What kind of 'Justice' are you talking about?
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
I'm putting my ire to one side to point out the inaccuracies in this statement, quoted from the findings of the Taylor Report and Public Inquest following the tragedy.
1. "Three times as many fans travelled to Hillsborough." - So you are saying because people travel in the hope of securing a ticket, somehow makes this pre-meditated by Liverpool fans? A collective suicide mission? Get a grip. This happens at any big game played on a neutral ground when big clubs with large support are involved. I would have thought living in Greater Manchester you may have noted this given that Manchester United and City are on your doorstep.
2. "The Influx of fans was expected and the turnstiles were heavily policed." - Indeed it should have been, the same two teams played in the same competition at the same ground a year earlier. However on that occasion fans without tickets were filtered by a series of police checks approaching the ground. Those without tickets never got close enough to the ground. Those who did queued and got in under the guidance of the police and matchday people. I know. I went. The following year, there were, under the direct orders of the Officer in Charge, Duckinfield, NO filters in place, meaning that ALL the Liverpool fans, those with tickets and those without were congregated outside the ground in a few hundred metres by the turnstiles. Causing a huge crush outside the ground.
3. "The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened)" - The "other reports" you suggest are the findings of the independent public enquiry and Taylor report where it emerged that the gate was not, as reported "Charged by drunken fans and forced open" but instead an order was given by the officer in charge, Duckinfield again, to open the exit gate. This single incident created the deadly massive crush. Particularly because the "heavy police presence" didn't include as it had the previous year, due to the wisdom of the officer in charge, police stationed inside the ground on the entries to the sections of stadium, to direct fans into the relatively empty end sections of the Leppings Lane stand and to close entry to the stand when it became full.
4. "Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded." - The tragedy unfolded because the crowd surged into already full sections of the ground that were not manned by the police as they were the previous season, through a gate that had been ordered to be opened by the police officer in charge, a decision which the Taylor Report concluded was "an error of the first magnitude". The reason the gate had to be opened was because too many fans were outside the ground, this was because the policing organisation and filtration of the fans to and around the ground was laughable when compared to the previous season. One must ask the question, if it worked the previous year so well, when just as many fans turned up without tickets, why was the proceedure changed the following year? The answer is because the person in charge decided it should. That person was Duckinfield of South Yorkshire Police.
5. "Bad behaviour by a large group of fans", "Pack Mentality","Masses of liverpool fans who defied..." Oh please... It is like reading a tenth rate Kelvin McKenzie piece. Show me the evidence of this, or indeed of the fans being drunk and disorderly as was widely reported at the time, and then summarily dismissed by the findings of the public enquiry and Taylor Report. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that an uruly mob of Drunken Liverpool fans caused this. To suggest so even in the slightest terms is offensive and has been proven to be totally inaccurate.
6. "My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently." - and Liverpool fans have done a lot of soul searching over this and other events over many, many years. However Liverpool fans did not act any differently to how fans of any other club would have done on that day. The only difference to the year before, which passed off without incident was the organisation and quality of the policing. I don't condone those fans who went without tickets, I don't absolve the chancers who thought nicking into a game for free would be great and dandy. However I don't think that they thought their actions would directly result in the deaths of 96 people. Their actions could easily have been counteracted, as it had been the year before, by effective policing.
However that isn't to do with the notion of justice. The whole notion of the justice is that as people lay dying and the events unravelled, what followed was a co-ordinated attempt by South Yorkshire police to cover up their ineptitude and blame the whole tragedy on the fans. Policemens statements edited to negate any negative comments about the policing that day, Duckinfield admitting he lied about ordering the gate to be opened initially, admitting he froze when he realised the magnitude of what he had caused by his decisions and then ordering the cover up to try and save himself whilst blaming Liverpool fans, including ordering his officers to question bereaved relatives on the drinking habits of their deceased "He liked to have a few before games didn't he?" as said to one mother over her deceased 14 year old son. To this day this has never been admitted officially and the notion of blame is still open to conjecture.
I'm not proud of the actions of many Liverpool fans that day. Those who charged into the ground without tickets must share in the sorry events that day. However it does not disguise the fact that this could have easily, EASILY been stopped by effective police organisation, as happened the year previously.
Oh and one final point, as people lay dying in the ground, 44 ambulances were stationed outside Hillsborough. ONE was allowed into the ground by the police in charge to treat the wounded and dying.
So yes, Justice is warranted. Not in terms of an eye for an eye, but an admission, not of guilt, but of culpability. An admittance that the South Yorkshire Police, or more rightly the officer in charge, made the wrong decision time and time they then tried to lie and distort the facts and even the observations of their own officers to "frame" Liverpool fans for the tragedy. Finally justice would be an acceptance that had they made the right choices, as they had the year before under the guidance of a more experienced Football Officer, then 96 people may well have lived.
So, with respect officer of the law. Not a fine post. Not a fine post at all. I feel I am within my rights to disagree.
Very well put indeed!
Sex God
To be fair, I gave up on football not long after this sorry event and my opinions are based on what I have heard and read over the years and the overall balance has settled on the general media opinion that it was a tragedy of circumstances. It is clear that people from Liverpool or followers of that team tend to know every detail of these issues so much more than the rest of us and I would defer to their superior detail knowledge.
It just annoys me no end that vast Police resources have to be enabled on a regular basis for events like this because of the absolute knowledge that there will be trouble and if it goes wrong the Police get the blame and no one ever asks why all this time and resource is being wasted in the first place.
Every week-end across this country ordinary people get terrorised in shopping centres near football grounds, in the streets and near railway stations as mobs block roads and chant obscene and intimidating songs. What is the point of all that?
I am still wondering what justice or truth is being looked for in the Hillsborough case. AS a person with no personal interest I understand the facts to be broadly as I outlined them and probably specifically as amended by a following poster - so what is being sought now?
Why can't you just let it go and mourn the poor victims in peace.
It just annoys me no end that vast Police resources have to be enabled on a regular basis for events like this because of the absolute knowledge that there will be trouble and if it goes wrong the Police get the blame and no one ever asks why all this time and resource is being wasted in the first place.
Every week-end across this country ordinary people get terrorised in shopping centres near football grounds, in the streets and near railway stations as mobs block roads and chant obscene and intimidating songs. What is the point of all that?
I am still wondering what justice or truth is being looked for in the Hillsborough case. AS a person with no personal interest I understand the facts to be broadly as I outlined them and probably specifically as amended by a following poster - so what is being sought now?
Why can't you just let it go and mourn the poor victims in peace.
Sex God
First Too Hot, I too gave up on supporting football, certainly Liverpool in the flesh, that day too. Mainly because several friends who I did go to matches with, went and came back with injuries so severe they spent days and weeks in hospital and spent God knows how long dealing with the events of that day.
Secondly my geography and whom I support has little bearing on this. People from Liverpool, or followers of he team, know most of the details because it was their children and spouses, fathers etc that died that day. I also researched the topic in a little more detail for part of my thesis. It tends to have a motivational effect to discover why and what went wrong. However this is not a football argument, it is a social one, it is one about fairness, justice or a lack of it. It is not a football debate. I would argue this point whether the fans came from Liverpool, London or Leicester. What happened did so at a football game and because they are merely football fans does not make them any less deserving of justice than if it happened at an Opera, Pop Concert, Rugby Match or out in town on a Saturday night.
As for the complaint about police resources, unfortunately for people who think like this, football is massively popular. Many people go to games, a great many of them tax payers. There has been a downward turn in the amount of football violence since the 1980's, markedly so. At most games there are few, if any arrests made at all. Compare that with an average weekend evening in your local town centre with all the drunks there. Does this mean people too should be stopped from going out?
The scum, for that is what they are, who still do this kind of thing should be caught and punished. Like other criminals in society. Everyone has a right to go about their business without being abused. You are right, I do not understand why people do that at all. In the same way I don't understand why people drink and drive, or get so drunk at weekends they start trouble, or take drugs or indeed steal hubcaps.
However isn't it part of the police remit to catch criminals like this and maintain public order? Rather than take away peoples civil liberties because it appears they just can't be bothered policing them? Or that perhaps some sections of society are just not worthy of their protection?
As for the justice, the whole point is that the investigation by the South Yorkshire Police and subsequent publication of the "revised" Taylor report and the findings of both official public inquiries was a total whitewash. All "official" investigations into this disaster have concluded beyond any reasonable doubt, that South Yorkshire Police were most culpable for the disaster, that their actions before, during and particularly after when they reprehensibly tried to cover their tracks and lay the blame on Liverpool fans, has never been acknowledged or apologised for. As such it tarnishes the memory of those who died, it tarnishes the club and its fans and it lets the people mostly responsible for this walk away unpunished and into a cozy early retirement.
So any form of justice for the 96 who died has never been forthcoming. Not in some outdated "Someone must pay" way. But simply by the SYP admitting their part in the disaster and the lies they used to cover it up. That is all Liverpool fans want along with official recognition of those and other facts. We don't want anyone strung up for crimes, we don't want a public trial and execution with Madame Desfarges knitting along the way, we just want the truth acknowledged and reported and recorded fairly. Something that has not happened yet. Not by a long way.
I hope you don't think I am being unfair Too Hot, I am actually glad you posted and had the bravery to do so as I am sure a great many people around the country share the belief you do and at least it has given me a chance to put across the other viewpoint.
Incidentally, I personally believe that the SYP were not solely responsible for the incident. I agree that many of the Liverpool fans there that day without tickets and who tried to get into the game, should hang their head in shame. The F.A who chose a badly designed and ill suited stadium for the Semi Final and then came up with the ridiculous notion that the smaller supported side should have the larger capacity stand, while Liverpool were left with the much smaller Leppings Lane end, should also be to blame, Sheffield City Council, whose safety certificate for the stadium was out of date and did not therefore include a check of any of the "improvements" made to the stadium in recent times (Such as the erecting of fences to keep fans in) are partly to blame. I am not seeking to pin sole blame on the police or any one individual. What Liverpool fans want is the facts reported as they are. Not just 50% of the facts, and the rest covered up to protect those who made the mistakes which resulted in the tragedy.
Secondly my geography and whom I support has little bearing on this. People from Liverpool, or followers of he team, know most of the details because it was their children and spouses, fathers etc that died that day. I also researched the topic in a little more detail for part of my thesis. It tends to have a motivational effect to discover why and what went wrong. However this is not a football argument, it is a social one, it is one about fairness, justice or a lack of it. It is not a football debate. I would argue this point whether the fans came from Liverpool, London or Leicester. What happened did so at a football game and because they are merely football fans does not make them any less deserving of justice than if it happened at an Opera, Pop Concert, Rugby Match or out in town on a Saturday night.
As for the complaint about police resources, unfortunately for people who think like this, football is massively popular. Many people go to games, a great many of them tax payers. There has been a downward turn in the amount of football violence since the 1980's, markedly so. At most games there are few, if any arrests made at all. Compare that with an average weekend evening in your local town centre with all the drunks there. Does this mean people too should be stopped from going out?
The scum, for that is what they are, who still do this kind of thing should be caught and punished. Like other criminals in society. Everyone has a right to go about their business without being abused. You are right, I do not understand why people do that at all. In the same way I don't understand why people drink and drive, or get so drunk at weekends they start trouble, or take drugs or indeed steal hubcaps.
However isn't it part of the police remit to catch criminals like this and maintain public order? Rather than take away peoples civil liberties because it appears they just can't be bothered policing them? Or that perhaps some sections of society are just not worthy of their protection?
As for the justice, the whole point is that the investigation by the South Yorkshire Police and subsequent publication of the "revised" Taylor report and the findings of both official public inquiries was a total whitewash. All "official" investigations into this disaster have concluded beyond any reasonable doubt, that South Yorkshire Police were most culpable for the disaster, that their actions before, during and particularly after when they reprehensibly tried to cover their tracks and lay the blame on Liverpool fans, has never been acknowledged or apologised for. As such it tarnishes the memory of those who died, it tarnishes the club and its fans and it lets the people mostly responsible for this walk away unpunished and into a cozy early retirement.
So any form of justice for the 96 who died has never been forthcoming. Not in some outdated "Someone must pay" way. But simply by the SYP admitting their part in the disaster and the lies they used to cover it up. That is all Liverpool fans want along with official recognition of those and other facts. We don't want anyone strung up for crimes, we don't want a public trial and execution with Madame Desfarges knitting along the way, we just want the truth acknowledged and reported and recorded fairly. Something that has not happened yet. Not by a long way.
I hope you don't think I am being unfair Too Hot, I am actually glad you posted and had the bravery to do so as I am sure a great many people around the country share the belief you do and at least it has given me a chance to put across the other viewpoint.
Incidentally, I personally believe that the SYP were not solely responsible for the incident. I agree that many of the Liverpool fans there that day without tickets and who tried to get into the game, should hang their head in shame. The F.A who chose a badly designed and ill suited stadium for the Semi Final and then came up with the ridiculous notion that the smaller supported side should have the larger capacity stand, while Liverpool were left with the much smaller Leppings Lane end, should also be to blame, Sheffield City Council, whose safety certificate for the stadium was out of date and did not therefore include a check of any of the "improvements" made to the stadium in recent times (Such as the erecting of fences to keep fans in) are partly to blame. I am not seeking to pin sole blame on the police or any one individual. What Liverpool fans want is the facts reported as they are. Not just 50% of the facts, and the rest covered up to protect those who made the mistakes which resulted in the tragedy.
Sex God
Res., another fine post.
Sex God
Quote by Funslut68
i can remember exactly where i was that day ... as a chelsea supporter i was standing in the away end watchin chels at leicester , chels had got promotion with record points that season .... and proceeded to lose 2 nil to them , we got legged all the way back to the car ... couldn't do that now lol . we new nothin about what had happened until on the m1 home.... my mate and i were in near tears listening to the radio reports on the way home. A sad day
I know exactly where I was that day as well.... Arsenal fan, we were playing Newcastle and I was where I always stood...Right at the back (top) in the middle of the north bank, 50,000 plus packed in like sardines as per normal...
The FA had taken semi-finals away from Highbury a few years before because Arsenal refused to put up those same type of barriers behind the goals at each end.... one of the things I am proud of my club for doing....
Anyway... about 15 minutes into our game we started to hear there were problems, at half time the tannoy annoucer said the game had been abandoned..... it was only after we heard that a few had been killed near the end of half time that the whole severity of it hit home.... I remember the 2nd half of that game like it was yesterday...... no singing or chanting, just the sound of transistor radio's playing out loud so we could hear what was going on.....
there were already flowers and scarves wrapped around the gates of Highbury when we walked out....
I think we were all just too shocked ... liverpool street where you get supporters from all london clubs mingling was just full of people consoling each other..... One big family....
I think I got the biggest hug from my mum when I got in.... it could have happened to anyones family.....
Quote by Resonance
What kind of 'Justice' are you talking about?
I know that this has been debated many, many times sometimes passionately and always emotionally out of respect for those poor innocents.
I just struggle to understand what 'Justice' is being sought?
Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that three times as many fans than had tickets travelled to Hillsborough on that day - every one of them determined to see the game. As the influx of fans was widely anticipated the turnstiles were heavily policed and the access into the ground was slow because of additional police checks. The very large number of ticketless fans unintentionally started to interfere with the ability of fans with tickets getting into the ground. The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened). Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded.
It is absolutely right that those who died are remembered for an event that will always be in the memory of anyone who followed football in that era. Personally, I think it is wrong to try and lay blame solely at the hands of S. Yorkshire Police - there is never only one cause of a tragedy. Similar to an air crash, there was a series of unlikely circumstances which had they ALL not happened together then the events would not have unfolded in the way that they did. It was not just the S Yorkshire Police and it was not just the fact that there were terraces at the ground. Similarly it is not just the fault of masses of ticketless fans who defied LFC, Hillsborough and the Police who urged them not to come on that day, nor was it their ultimate 'pack' mentality surging towards the exit doors. Bad behaviour by a large group of fans, poor policing and Stewarding combined with poor design standards of doors, accesses and terraces all combined together in this horrific event.
I hope you don't think that I am being provocative in this post but it does get me whenever anyone is looking to lay the blame at someone else's feet. My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently. If the fans, the Police and Hillsborough all did this once and for all in an open forum then we could all put this to bed and spend the rest of our days simply remembering the poor people who died and their families who still struggle today.
I'm putting my ire to one side to point out the inaccuracies in this statement, quoted from the findings of the Taylor Report and Public Inquest following the tragedy.
1. "Three times as many fans travelled to Hillsborough." - So you are saying because people travel in the hope of securing a ticket, somehow makes this pre-meditated by Liverpool fans? A collective suicide mission? Get a grip. This happens at any big game played on a neutral ground when big clubs with large support are involved. I would have thought living in Greater Manchester you may have noted this given that Manchester United and City are on your doorstep.
2. "The Influx of fans was expected and the turnstiles were heavily policed." - Indeed it should have been, the same two teams played in the same competition at the same ground a year earlier. However on that occasion fans without tickets were filtered by a series of police checks approaching the ground. Those without tickets never got close enough to the ground. Those who did queued and got in under the guidance of the police and matchday people. I know. I went. The following year, there were, under the direct orders of the Officer in Charge, Duckinfield, NO filters in place, meaning that ALL the Liverpool fans, those with tickets and those without were congregated outside the ground in a few hundred metres by the turnstiles. Causing a huge crush outside the ground.
3. "The throng was pushing against the exit doors and people were being crushed outside the ground against the gates until the gates gave way under pressure (other reports suggest they were intentionally opened)" - The "other reports" you suggest are the findings of the independent public enquiry and Taylor report where it emerged that the gate was not, as reported "Charged by drunken fans and forced open" but instead an order was given by the officer in charge, Duckinfield again, to open the exit gate. This single incident created the deadly massive crush. Particularly because the "heavy police presence" didn't include as it had the previous year, due to the wisdom of the officer in charge, police stationed inside the ground on the entries to the sections of stadium, to direct fans into the relatively empty end sections of the Leppings Lane stand and to close entry to the stand when it became full.
4. "Either way the crowd surged into the ground and the tragedy then unfolded." - The tragedy unfolded because the crowd surged into already full sections of the ground that were not manned by the police as they were the previous season, through a gate that had been ordered to be opened by the police officer in charge, a decision which the Taylor Report concluded was "an error of the first magnitude". The reason the gate had to be opened was because too many fans were outside the ground, this was because the policing organisation and filtration of the fans to and around the ground was laughable when compared to the previous season. One must ask the question, if it worked the previous year so well, when just as many fans turned up without tickets, why was the proceedure changed the following year? The answer is because the person in charge decided it should. That person was Duckinfield of South Yorkshire Police.
5. "Bad behaviour by a large group of fans", "Pack Mentality","Masses of liverpool fans who defied..." Oh please... It is like reading a tenth rate Kelvin McKenzie piece. Show me the evidence of this, or indeed of the fans being drunk and disorderly as was widely reported at the time, and then summarily dismissed by the findings of the public enquiry and Taylor Report. There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that an uruly mob of Drunken Liverpool fans caused this. To suggest so even in the slightest terms is offensive and has been proven to be totally inaccurate.
6. "My Colour Sargeant used to say that whenever something goes wrong - look at yourself first and ask yourself if you could have done anything differently." - and Liverpool fans have done a lot of soul searching over this and other events over many, many years. However Liverpool fans did not act any differently to how fans of any other club would have done on that day. The only difference to the year before, which passed off without incident was the organisation and quality of the policing. I don't condone those fans who went without tickets, I don't absolve the chancers who thought nicking into a game for free would be great and dandy. However I don't think that they thought their actions would directly result in the deaths of 96 people. Their actions could easily have been counteracted, as it had been the year before, by effective policing.
However that isn't to do with the notion of justice. The whole notion of the justice is that as people lay dying and the events unravelled, what followed was a co-ordinated attempt by South Yorkshire police to cover up their ineptitude and blame the whole tragedy on the fans. Policemens statements edited to negate any negative comments about the policing that day, Duckinfield admitting he lied about ordering the gate to be opened initially, admitting he froze when he realised the magnitude of what he had caused by his decisions and then ordering the cover up to try and save himself whilst blaming Liverpool fans, including ordering his officers to question bereaved relatives on the drinking habits of their deceased "He liked to have a few before games didn't he?" as said to one mother over her deceased 14 year old son. To this day this has never been admitted officially and the notion of blame is still open to conjecture.
I'm not proud of the actions of many Liverpool fans that day. Those who charged into the ground without tickets must share in the sorry events that day. However it does not disguise the fact that this could have easily, EASILY been stopped by effective police organisation, as happened the year previously.
Oh and one final point, as people lay dying in the ground, 44 ambulances were stationed outside Hillsborough. ONE was allowed into the ground by the police in charge to treat the wounded and dying.
So yes, Justice is warranted. Not in terms of an eye for an eye, but an admission, not of guilt, but of culpability. An admittance that the South Yorkshire Police, or more rightly the officer in charge, made the wrong decision time and time they then tried to lie and distort the facts and even the observations of their own officers to "frame" Liverpool fans for the tragedy. Finally justice would be an acceptance that had they made the right choices, as they had the year before under the guidance of a more experienced Football Officer, then 96 people may well have lived.
So, with respect officer of the law. Not a fine post. Not a fine post at all. I feel I am within my rights to disagree.
Well done well put,
Just to add, i never said justice in my ealier post simply truth...
PRIME MINISTER: THE TRUTH ABOUT REDS FANS
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has spoken exclusively to LFC TV about his admiration for the 'magnificent' Liverpool fans who fought to save lives at Hillsborough and claimed those who attempted to blame them for the disaster had been proven wrong.
PRIME MINISTER: THE TRUTH ABOUT REDS FANS
Prime Minister Gordon Brown has spoken exclusively to LFC TV about his admiration for the 'magnificent' Liverpool fans who fought to save lives at Hillsborough and claimed those who attempted to blame them for the disaster had been proven wrong.
Sex God
Quote by Resonance
First Too Hot, I too gave up on supporting football, certainly Liverpool in the flesh, that day too. Mainly because several friends who I did go to matches with, went and came back with injuries so severe they spent days and weeks in hospital and spent God knows how long dealing with the events of that day.
Secondly my geography and whom I support has little bearing on this. People from Liverpool, or followers of he team, know most of the details because it was their children and spouses, fathers etc that died that day. I also researched the topic in a little more detail for part of my thesis. It tends to have a motivational effect to discover why and what went wrong. However this is not a football argument, it is a social one, it is one about fairness, justice or a lack of it. It is not a football debate. I would argue this point whether the fans came from Liverpool, London or Leicester. What happened did so at a football game and because they are merely football fans does not make them any less deserving of justice than if it happened at an Opera, Pop Concert, Rugby Match or out in town on a Saturday night.
As for the complaint about police resources, unfortunately for people who think like this, football is massively popular. Many people go to games, a great many of them tax payers. There has been a downward turn in the amount of football violence since the 1980's, markedly so. At most games there are few, if any arrests made at all. Compare that with an average weekend evening in your local town centre with all the drunks there. Does this mean people too should be stopped from going out?
The scum, for that is what they are, who still do this kind of thing should be caught and punished. Like other criminals in society. Everyone has a right to go about their business without being abused. You are right, I do not understand why people do that at all. In the same way I don't understand why people drink and drive, or get so drunk at weekends they start trouble, or take drugs or indeed steal hubcaps.
However isn't it part of the police remit to catch criminals like this and maintain public order? Rather than take away peoples civil liberties because it appears they just can't be bothered policing them? Or that perhaps some sections of society are just not worthy of their protection?
As for the justice, the whole point is that the investigation by the South Yorkshire Police and subsequent publication of the "revised" Taylor report and the findings of both official public inquiries was a total whitewash. All "official" investigations into this disaster have concluded beyond any reasonable doubt, that South Yorkshire Police were most culpable for the disaster, that their actions before, during and particularly after when they reprehensibly tried to cover their tracks and lay the blame on Liverpool fans, has never been acknowledged or apologised for. As such it tarnishes the memory of those who died, it tarnishes the club and its fans and it lets the people mostly responsible for this walk away unpunished and into a cozy early retirement.
So any form of justice for the 96 who died has never been forthcoming. Not in some outdated "Someone must pay" way. But simply by the SYP admitting their part in the disaster and the lies they used to cover it up. That is all Liverpool fans want along with official recognition of those and other facts. We don't want anyone strung up for crimes, we don't want a public trial and execution with Madame Desfarges knitting along the way, we just want the truth acknowledged and reported and recorded fairly. Something that has not happened yet. Not by a long way.
I hope you don't think I am being unfair Too Hot, I am actually glad you posted and had the bravery to do so as I am sure a great many people around the country share the belief you do and at least it has given me a chance to put across the other viewpoint.
Incidentally, I personally believe that the SYP were not solely responsible for the incident. I agree that many of the Liverpool fans there that day without tickets and who tried to get into the game, should hang their head in shame. The F.A who chose a badly designed and ill suited stadium for the Semi Final and then came up with the ridiculous notion that the smaller supported side should have the larger capacity stand, while Liverpool were left with the much smaller Leppings Lane end, should also be to blame, Sheffield City Council, whose safety certificate for the stadium was out of date and did not therefore include a check of any of the "improvements" made to the stadium in recent times (Such as the erecting of fences to keep fans in) are partly to blame. I am not seeking to pin sole blame on the police or any one individual. What Liverpool fans want is the facts reported as they are. Not just 50% of the facts, and the rest covered up to protect those who made the mistakes which resulted in the tragedy.
Absolutely. I would chop up your post Res but to do so, in my opinion, would take away the impact. But that bit in bold I had to highlight.
Nola x
Sex God
20 years ago i like many sat watching what happened at hillsborough 96 people who loved the beautiful game died through failures of others and no justice has come to ease there pain
football fans are humans and have the same rights as all others we have been treated badly for many years and kicked about as political and tabloid footballs
justice for all 96 and the 800 injured and the many many more who have been scared by this
a man utd fan
football fans are humans and have the same rights as all others we have been treated badly for many years and kicked about as political and tabloid footballs
justice for all 96 and the 800 injured and the many many more who have been scared by this
a man utd fan
