Alcohol - worse than heroin?

24 Mar 2007

Quote by splendid_
It's just that it is possible to enjoy alcohol in moderation - not so with heroin.

I work with, on a daily basis, those who enjoy heroin recreationally and in moderation. They hold down full time responsible jobs... they work in others' homes. They work in supportive roles in the community etc etc. Heroin is used by a fair cross section of society. I have seen every profession.
the main 'problem' with heroin (in my opinion) is the media representation of it, also the cost which leads to other, social, problems.
As for alcohol, it costs society more in everyway. The true issue is the facts and figures are not presented to the media machine as, to curtail alcohol use would cost far more, as it is legal. Heroin and other illicit drugs are easier and cheaper to villify and act against.
splendid
Thing is, when you buy a pint, you generally know what you are getting is going to be pretty much the same as the last pint you bought. With heroin, you have to trust a dealer. Not the most trustworthy of people, them. If I buy a pint of boddingtons in the pub, I know I'm going to get pretty much the same pint of boddies as I got last time I bought one - alcohol content will be pretty much the same, so llong as the landlord keeps his pumps clean and stuff.
If I am buying smack, which I do not do but have known on a personal level several people who do, I have NO IDEA what I am getting - is this pure or is it cut with rat shit and ajax? No idea - I take my chances that this shady pusher person is selling me the same shit he sold me yesterday.
And that is the reality of drug use - you have no quality control whatsoever - no Watchdog to champion consumer rights - you buy your shit off someone who is operating well outside the law and you don't know what you have bought until you have smoked or injected it.
And that is why drugs - all illegal drugs - are not worth messing with. This may well open up a discussion around the legalisation and quality control of currently illegal narcotics - personally I'd legalise and monitor all of them if I was in charge, becuse I agree that it is possible to use drugs recreationally, but given the fact they are controlled exclusively by criminals, I steer well away. I wouldn't touch drugs even if they were legal, personally

24 Mar 2007

Having watched a young member of my own family slowly disintegrate (literally) in front of my eyes through heroin abuse, I object when I hear people say that it isn’t that bad for your health.
Try sitting all night with someone in agony who constantly throws up, has hallucinations and shakes because they haven’t had their fix. When they are taking the drug they lose weight because it reduces the appetite and gives you diarrhoea. I can spot a heroin user a mile off due to their awful spotty skin, dark circles under their eyes and weight loss.
They also steel everything not nailed down to fund their habit and they don’t care who they are steeling from or who they hurt in order to get their fix. Heroin addicts are single minded in their pursuit of the drug.
I could go into details about how much the addicts drag themselves and their families into a world of crime and violence (I have witnessed) and how I have discovered how many very young children are addicted in my area, but this is all very raw to me still.
However, I do think that alcohol in excess is also detrimental to health and society.

24 Mar 2007

I've watched both - heroin addiction is no joke at all and not to be taken lightly. Neither is alcoholism. This discussion is getting too depressing to continue with now :/

24 Mar 2007

Quote by Gothic-punk
I've watched both - heroin addiction is no joke at all and not to be taken lightly. Neither is alcoholism. This discussion is getting too depressing to continue with now :/

Sorry to see you leave the discussion as you make valid points......as do others. Those of us that have lived through it can go by experience, which may help those that have not. But just by living through it only makes the individual understand the things that affected them........and not the needs of the majority or what affects them.
Dave_Notts

24 Mar 2007

berksbex, im sorry youve had to go through that and i do have a very good idea of what its like.
i think you may have misunderstood my point. i wasnt saying that using heroin isnt bad for your health. i was mainly talking about long term physical damage done by the actual drug compared to alcohol, not the associated lifestyle.
im well aware of how heroin use can destroy lives and families. i have sat with people in agony from withdrawals and i have had people ive worked with for a long time die from polydrug overdose. (i can say the all of same for alcohol users although its not my specialist field.)
a couple of things i have to pick up on....you say you can spot a heroin user? im sorry but the stereotype you talk about is not what every heroin user looks like, as splendid said earlier. and as for stealing everything in sight to fund a habit? i have many clients who have full time jobs. the service i work in has a hardcore of 100 users who commit crime. it has 500 who do not.
im not disagreeing with everything you say, just giving a balanced perspective as someone who works in the area. i understand your experiences are very personal with it being a member of your family and it sounds like you have been a great support to this family member despite the hard times and im sorry if i offended you. :thumbup:

24 Mar 2007

Quote by sexkittenhfx
berksbex, im sorry youve had to go through that and i do have a very good idea of what its like.
i think you may have misunderstood my point. i wasnt saying that using heroin isnt bad for your health. i was mainly talking about long term physical damage done by the actual drug compared to alcohol, not the associated lifestyle.
im well aware of how heroin use can destroy lives and families. i have sat with people in agony from withdrawals and i have had people ive worked with for a long time die from polydrug overdose. (i can say the all of same for alcohol users although its not my specialist field.)
a couple of things i have to pick up on....you say you can spot a heroin user? im sorry but the stereotype you talk about is not what every heroin user looks like, as splendid said earlier. and as for stealing everything in sight to fund a habit? i have many clients who have full time jobs. the service i work in has a hardcore of 100 users who commit crime. it has 500 who do not.
im not disagreeing with everything you say, just giving a balanced perspective as someone who works in the area. i understand your experiences are very personal with it being a member of your family and it sounds like you have been a great support to this family member despite the hard times and im sorry if i offended you. :thumbup:

I'm not offended. smile

I didn’t misunderstand any points because I wasn’t actually objecting to any one person’s point in this thread, so my reply wasn’t aimed at you exactly. It was just general because I had just seen a few too many posts suggesting that heroin was innocuous and I know it’s not.
I’m not using stereotypes, I try very hard not to do that. I’m just explaining what I have seen and what I am seeing daily with my own eyes. Maybe the heroin users you have met look after themselves better or are older? The ones I know are all under 20 years old. These heroin addicts that have come to my house to visit this member of my family and who live nearby all look like that. Male/female doesn’t make any difference.
No offence but living with someone addicted like this is a million miles away from working with them.

25 Mar 2007

Quote by berksbex
No offence but living with someone addicted like this is a million miles away from working with them.

none taken kiss

25 Mar 2007

On a lighter note Berksbex wrote:-

If I buy a pint of boddingtons in the pub, I know I'm going to get pretty much the same pint of boddies as I got last time I bought one - alcohol content will be pretty much the same, so llong as the landlord keeps his pumps clean and stuff.

That's why I buy the real ale stuff straight from the barrel.. tastes different every time wink

hijack over :thumbup:

25 Mar 2007

Quote by earthchild
isnt it funny
i woke up the other morning ( about 3 days ago ) and i stoped smoking :shock: havent had a fag for three days now
but the realy funny thing is im goin right off booz too :shock:
i now drink ones a week at home . where once i would have a bottle of whisky now im only getting half a bottle and i dont finnish that :shock:
i now feel that geting drunk in public is somehow degrading , thats how i feel :?
although i wouldnt say they should ban alcohol i can see where everyone is comeing from on this one .
if taken sencibley it can be a good thing but if abused it becomes very dangerus
just my opinion :wink:

hasnt improved your spelling though rolleyes

leave my spellin alone redface

:roll: :wink:

25 Mar 2007

I've seen this topic come up with interest. Only had the chance to have a speed-read through some of the points put forward so far so I'll come back and digest it in detail during the week.
One initial observation I'd like to make is that the subject was raised as a result of an article published in the Lancet, contributed to by learned medical professionals. The Home Office are poo-poohing its content.
Which are you more likely to believe (particularly given recent exposes of incompetence): the medical profession or the Home Office?

25 Mar 2007

Very interesting thread, isn't most things bad for you if taking in extreme, dunno

thats the problem with health its not an exact science, Smoking causes cancer yes may be it does, i have seen lots of people have surgery to remove cancerous tumors that don't smoke.
Unfortunately for every argument against something you will always find and argument for. If my memory sever me well i do believe, that the like of heroin, cocaine etc we made illegal due to pressure from the tobacco companies, Talking of tobacco nicotine is supposedly addictive yet, i know people who can start and stop smoking at the drop of a hat.
There has been further report suggesting that some individual my be more susceptible to addictive substances then other.
I don't know :dunno: if i have made any sense or not but i don't think we will ever be able to say 100% for definite that something is more damaging then something else everyone of use is different and things effect use all differently

25 Mar 2007

Quote by Dave__Notts
So what is all this about? In my mind, it is not the drug or narcotic that is the problem but how it is retailed. If you price something out then crime usually rears its head into an organised unit that allows crime to florish.
Just to point out..........I am not advocating narcotics over drinking. I do not take narcotics, I drink little but smoke like a chimney.
Dave_Notts

25 Mar 2007

Quote by MandH

So what is all this about? In my mind, it is not the drug or narcotic that is the problem but how it is retailed. If you price something out then crime usually rears its head into an organised unit that allows crime to florish.
Just to point out..........I am not advocating narcotics over drinking. I do not take narcotics, I drink little but smoke like a chimney.
Dave_Notts

In general I'd agree with everything you've said, but at what level do you price it?
There was a report the other day that documented the increase in heavy home drinking, citing the relative low cost of alcohol (notably beers and wines) as one of the reasons.
M
I'd hazard a guess that the smoking ban in Scotland has done little to discourage drinking at home, heavy or otherwise. I'd imagine the same will happen in England when the ban comes in! confused

27 Mar 2007

The fact that the use of illegal narcotics is illegal is enough to make it more wrong than drink as it is illegal.
Whichever way things are looked at the rule of law has to prevail.
Too add further to this debate what about the addiction of food. This effects far more than both alcohol and drugs and its advertised and promoted costing the government spends a couple of quid telling us about healthy eating.
This also tends to effect the lower placed in society as chips cost less than asparagus and sport centers are too expensive to use regularily. oh and yeah we are to frightened to let our kids out now to play and where they used to be able to play aint there no more.
dunno

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

27 Mar 2007

Quite interesting to hear on yesterdays news was the fact that the village of Bournville in Birmingham organised a campaign against Tesco's being able to sell alcohol in their store in the area...
They have no outlets anywhere in the area that sell alcohol and didnt want to add to the non drink related social problems they already have in the area..
Just goes to show that drink isnt the root of all evil wink

27 Mar 2007

Quote by Mallock2006
Quite interesting to hear on yesterdays news was the fact that the village of Bournville in Birmingham organised a campaign against Tesco's being able to sell alcohol in their store in the area...
They have no outlets anywhere in the area that sell alcohol and didnt want to add to the non drink related social problems they already have in the area..
Just goes to show that drink isnt the root of all evil

I read that, I think the update was they won their campaign... I wonder what their social problems are in that event?

27 Mar 2007

Quote by jaymar
Quite interesting to hear on yesterdays news was the fact that the village of Bournville in Birmingham organised a campaign against Tesco's being able to sell alcohol in their store in the area...
They have no outlets anywhere in the area that sell alcohol and didnt want to add to the non drink related social problems they already have in the area..
Just goes to show that drink isnt the root of all evil

I read that, I think the update was they won their campaign... I wonder what their social problems are in that event?
Makes you wonder doesnt it...

27 Mar 2007

Quote by Dave__Notts
Off on one of my rambles now, so just skip this post
Alcohol worse than Heroin? It could be and it depends on the society at that time in history.
Also in the 50's, as someone else pointed out, this country had a medicine that was based on herion......it think it was called Lourdinum or something like that. Dave_Notts

Laudanum
it's opium in alcohol ! *Very* popular in Victorian times

27 Mar 2007

Very interesting debate this , I'm learning a a mad thought.I wonder what would happen if they banned alcohol and legalised heroin.

27 Mar 2007

Quote by MandH

So what is all this about? In my mind, it is not the drug or narcotic that is the problem but how it is retailed. If you price something out then crime usually rears its head into an organised unit that allows crime to florish.
Just to point out..........I am not advocating narcotics over drinking. I do not take narcotics, I drink little but smoke like a chimney.
Dave_Notts

In general I'd agree with everything you've said, but at what level do you price it?

The easiest way of trying to explain my ramble is to use contraband or hooky tobacco. As long as the price (profit margin) is there, then the crime rings will appear. I am not talking of Uncle Bob nipping across the water to pick up 30 packets but those that pop over with an articulated truck and fill it up. Thats a modern day comparisson......historically you can either use The Mob in the USA with bootleg drink or the good old UK (legalised drug running) when we went to war with China to keep our opium trade going into China.
Dave_Notts
Dave_Notts

28 Mar 2007

are we talking " proibition " here ?
if so we have to look not only at the over the water beer trip but the uncle jessie " still in the loft" thing too confused

1 Nov 2010

Still in the news;
Alcohol is more harmful than heroin or crack, according to a study published in medical journal the Lancet.
The report is co-authored by Professor David Nutt, the former UK chief drugs adviser who was sacked by the government in October 2009.
It ranks 20 drugs on 16 measures of harm to users and to wider society.

1 Nov 2010

I reckon that booze is worse than heroin, plenty of people have a booze addiction that can and does lead to all kinds of problems.
However, as far as I know, alocolics don't mug/rob/burgal to get money for booze.

1 Nov 2010

Quote by browning
I reckon that booze is worse than heroin, plenty of people have a booze addiction that can and does lead to all kinds of problems.
However, as far as I know, alocolics don't mug/rob/burgal to get money for booze.

In my experiences many years ago people who do Heroin often drink and smoke pot and cigarettes etc etc. The stolen money is used to buy all of the above as is the job seekers allowance and everything else.

1 Nov 2010

what report says...is to wider society.....Alcohol is more of a problem than heroin.
It also states that on a personal level...heroin is far worse than alcohol.
Fact is you can have one or two units of alcohol...and be fine. If you drink to excess then it can become a problem. Due to its availability it is ofcause more of a problem to society as a whole.....with under age drinkers ; binge drinkers ; abuse and violence caused by excess alcohol..etc.
Heroin and crack heroin especially is dangerous fron its first dose. It has an addiction level that will mean after just one use, you can become vunerable. What the report does not address is the crime that occurs because of its use. So much crime heavy organised crime is drugs related. The police will tell you that they believe 90% of house burgularies are people trying to steal one or two items, that they can then sell to fund their drug habit. a large number of prostitues do it to fund their drub habit.
Please..please do not be fooled......Heroin is a nasty nasty substance that is highly addictive and should be avoided at all costs.

1 Nov 2010

Quote by deancannock
what report says...is to wider society.....Alcohol is more of a problem than heroin.
(snip)
Please..please do not be fooled......Heroin is a nasty nasty substance that is highly addictive and should be avoided at all costs.

I agree - the huge ENORMOUS point that should come out of this report is that alcohol is (overall) as damaging as heroin.
Not that heroin is as harmless as a glass of sherry in the hands of an aged Aunt.
If someone were to come up with alcohol - it never having been invented before - and explained what it does and how it can (in the wrong doses) make people behave, it wouldn't get past the most basic licensing discussions. But we have it, and as such we have to live with it and manage its dangers, but first we have to understand and accept those dangers.

1 Nov 2010

As this thread has resurfaced it's now more appropriate to have it in the Current Affairs forum. ;-)

1 Nov 2010

Quote by Cubes
As this thread has resurfaced it's now more appropriate to have it in the Current Affairs forum. ;-)

This is one of the reason I dont like the forum divides and the "Current affairs" forum. There is nothing current about heroin and alcohol. There is also nothing current about UK politics from the 70's and 80's which often also gets debated here.
Thats nothing against you by the way Cubes, I understand why it was moved I just dont believe it should have to be :cool:
Hmm maybe this calls for a thread :idea:

1 Nov 2010

Quote by tweeky
Hmm maybe this calls for a thread :idea:

Actually, I cant be arsed :haha:

1 Nov 2010

Quote by tweeky

Hmm maybe this calls for a thread :idea:

Actually, I cant be arsed :haha:
:thumbup: