Anti-Semitic and homophobic text books

22 Nov 2010

This was enlightening and a little scary. Thought it make for an interesting debate.
For me this should be investigated and every attempt made to stop the distribution of such books.
Panorama unearths evidence of anti-Semitic and homophobic text books being taught to about 5,000 Muslim children in Britain.

23 Nov 2010

There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Dave_Notts

23 Nov 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Dave_Notts

Don't think the Bible mentions any thing about Jews looking like pigs though Dave, these books are a large step from depicting homosexuality as a sin
I should like to add, these books form part of teachings in these faith schools

23 Nov 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Dave_Notts

Don't think the Bible mentions any thing about Jews looking like pigs though Dave, these books are a large step from depicting homosexuality as a sin
How do you know - have you read one?
From your link:
'Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.'
I would infer from that, that they do see homosexuality as a sin, punishable in an extreme fashion.

23 Nov 2010

Quote by Freckledbird
There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Dave_Notts

Don't think the Bible mentions any thing about Jews looking like pigs though Dave, these books are a large step from depicting homosexuality as a sin
How do you know - have you read one?
From your link:
'Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.'
I would infer from that, that they do see homosexuality as a sin, punishable in an extreme fashion.
I only know what I saw on Panarama, and yes muslims see it as a sin, I never said that they did not. The point I was attempting to make, which you made better than me is the bible,s (which dave drew referance too) view point was tame/measured in comparison to these books

23 Nov 2010

1 rule for them, and 1 rule for us..........

23 Nov 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
I only know what I saw on Panarama, and yes muslims see it as a sin, I never said that they did not. The point I was attempting to make, which you made better than me is the bible,s (which dave drew referance too) view point was tame/measured in comparison to these books
Tame?
Leviticus 20:13 (NAS)
13t'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Now i have my own theological views,but most evangelicals will teach that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin which should be punished by death.

Thank you for that quote Kaz, I have never heard that actual quote before, and that is kind of my point really. Also we can be fairly certain that it is unlikely that a Christan teacher will attempt to radicalise any one to carry out such acts.
Below are some quotes from the links;
One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people. A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".
Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.
In a book for 14-year-olds, Sharia law and its punishment for theft are explained, including detailed diagrams about how hands and feet of thieves are amputated.
Panorama has also found evidence of extreme views on some private, full-time Muslim school websites, including messages that state: "Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition to almost everything Islam stands for" and "We need to defend our children from the forces of evil".
I think that the anti- western tone and racist undertones seen in these teachings are very undesirable, I find some of them completely unacceptable.

23 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411
Also we can be fairly certain that it is unlikely that a Christan teacher will attempt to radicalise any one to carry out such acts.

How on earth can you make such a sweeping statement ?
It was easy, but even if I am totally incorrect, that does not make these books any less undesirable

23 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411

Here`s something to ponder....

Interesting read thank you flower, I did not mean, if I have given that impression, to imply one religion is better than another.
What I feel uncomfortable with is this is children being taught to hate and dislike
Can we defend a wrong with another wrong?

23 Nov 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Can we defend a wrong with another wrong?

Yes.
Guantanamo Bay.

23 Nov 2010

Quote by essex34m

Can we defend a wrong with another wrong?

Yes.
Guantanamo Bay.
Sorry essex, I do not understand

23 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411

Here`s something to ponder....

:shock: :shock: :shock:

23 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411

Here`s something to ponder....

Interesting read thank you flower, I did not mean, if I have given that impression, to imply one religion is better than another.
What I feel uncomfortable with is this is children being taught to hate and dislike
Can we defend a wrong with another wrong?
Absolutely not ...that`s my point.... both the koran and the bible are ancient texts that contain just about any prejudice one cares to promote.
I`m questioning the fact that you appeared to be saying that one lot of radicals was worse than another.
If that is how it appears then that was not my intention, but if you compare the quote that Kaz provided form the bible, "13t'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them", with, "punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff", I feel there is a difference.
So asking children to debate which way is the best way to punish these people to death does not sit well with me.
I have not mentioned the Koran, I never even brought up the Bible, these are school books which ask the pupils things like, "list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people"
I find that unpalatable, whatever religious person or persuasion it should come from.
I have no alliance with any religion, I have no religion.
If there are faith schools of other religions which are making and using school text books which attack other people and faiths in the same way then I will be equally disgusted with them.
I feel it would be better to compare like for like, I am not talking of quotes from religious texts, but from school text books.

24 Nov 2010

If a man who lies with a man should be stoned, why didnt George Michael use this as his defence?

24 Nov 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I feel it would be better to compare like for like, I am not talking of quotes from religious texts, but from school text books.

These text books are based on the principles of their religion, so it is hard to distinguish between the two.
Without the religion, you wouldn't have Sharia Law. It is a catch 22 debate by trying to keep the religion out of it.
Most of our way of life is based on the bible and its teachings. They are so intertwined it is hard to see where one stops and the other starts.
Dave_Notts

24 Nov 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
I feel it would be better to compare like for like, I am not talking of quotes from religious texts, but from school text books.

These text books are based on the principles of their religion, so it is hard to distinguish between the two.
Without the religion, you wouldn't have Sharia Law. It is a catch 22 debate by trying to keep the religion out of it.
Most of our way of life is based on the bible and its teachings. They are so intertwined it is hard to see where one stops and the other starts.
Dave_Notts
I do get your point Dave, but still feel there is a difference between old religious text and modern text books. Even if I except your point I still do not think this can be used as an excuse for these kinds of text books and there teachings.
For my info, as I really do not know, does the Koran list the reprehensible qualities of Jewish people?
I feel very uncomfortable with the anti Semitic teaching of these text books. This is step one to teaching hate, and I do not like it one bit, and can't find any way to defend it. I don't feel that listing wrongs from other religion makes this acceptable.

25 Nov 2010

Blue has been backed into a corner I think although any discussion on religion is going to be fraught with arguement.
Maybe if the question was based more on 'Should schools be allowed to teach hatred and intolerance between peoples of different religions' then maybe that would be better, I don't know.
It does seem to me that any teachings of intolerance shouldn't be taught at school and that includes the Bible of which I have no love for, however remarkable a document it is. I also believe that schools should be a place to learn about secular issues taught in a secular way and that hypothetical subjects, however real to some, should be a choice made away from school. How that would be achieved i can't even speculate.
Religion in all its choices should be a choice made by an individual searching for their individual needs. As with racism, no one can stop peoples thoughts and ideas about what is right or wrong for them, but it can be made wrong to extol its virtues by ways and means public.

25 Nov 2010

Although possibly backed into a corner Lost, I feel no one has actually provided me with an argument that makes these text book acceptable, so far to me, most arguments people have made here are excuses for the books, rather that valid reasons for them.
In my view, I feel I have the high ground, as there can be no justification for such teachings

25 Nov 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Although possibly backed into a corner Lost, I feel no one has actually provided me with an argument that makes these text book acceptable, so far to me, most arguments people have made here are excuses for the books, rather that valid reasons for them.
In my view, I feel I have the high ground, as there can be no justification for such teachings

I think you might want to reconsider that - I don't think anyone thinks the textbooks are acceptable. What is being said by some, is that there are things said in both holy books, there are unacceptable (to most) passages. Of course, that doesn't make either of them 'right'.
And by the way, I agree - there can be no justification for such teachings (in any school, state run or voluntary/part time) of hate, intolerance or encouragement of violence toward particular groups of people.

25 Nov 2010

Quote by Freckledbird
Although possibly backed into a corner Lost, I feel no one has actually provided me with an argument that makes these text book acceptable, so far to me, most arguments people have made here are excuses for the books, rather that valid reasons for them.
In my view, I feel I have the high ground, as there can be no justification for such teachings

I think you might want to reconsider that - I don't think anyone thinks the textbooks are acceptable. What is being said by some, is that there are things said in both holy books, there are unacceptable (to most) passages. Of course, that doesn't make either of them 'right'.
And by the way, I agree - there can be no justification for such teachings (in any school, state run or voluntary/part time) of hate, intolerance or encouragement of violence toward particular groups of people.
Yes you are correct, that is exactly what they are saying, and I do not disagree. I hold those passages from any books in equal contempt.
I must view things in another way to people here. When I see some thing distasteful I condemn it, and if I find some thing in another book which is equally distastefull, I will condemn that also. I don't understand that stance, If we condemn some one for murder, showing others who have also murdered does not lesson any thing.
Dave's question was, There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Let me try to answer Dave's question a little better than I have until now, No, I would not wish to ban any old religious books, but would stop the production of modern school text books, aimed at children which take specific passages, focus on those pasages, which in turn, promote hatred of others.

25 Nov 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
No, I would not wish to ban any old religious books.

I fu*king would!

25 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411
Although possibly backed into a corner Lost, I feel no one has actually provided me with an argument that makes these text book acceptable, so far to me, most arguments people have made here are excuses for the books, rather that valid reasons for them.
In my view, I feel I have the high ground, as there can be no justification for such teachings

I think you might want to reconsider that - I don't think anyone thinks the textbooks are acceptable. What is being said by some, is that there are things said in both holy books, there are unacceptable (to most) passages. Of course, that doesn't make either of them 'right'.
And by the way, I agree - there can be no justification for such teachings (in any school, state run or voluntary/part time) of hate, intolerance or encouragement of violence toward particular groups of people.
Yes you are correct, that is exactly what they are saying, and I do not disagree. I hold those passages from any books in equal contempt.
I must view things in another way to people here. When I see some thing distasteful I condemn it, and if I find some thing in another book which is equally distastefull, I will condemn that also. I don't understand that stance, If we condemn some one for murder, showing others who have also murdered does not lesson any thing.
Dave's question was, There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Let me try to answer Dave's question a little better than I have until now, No, I would not wish to ban any old religious books, but would stop the production of modern school text books, aimed at children which take specific passages, focus on those pasages, which in turn, promote hatred of others.
I think that the only issue people had with your original post is that it seemed to be drawing particular attention to muslim texts and teachings rather than a general distaste for anti semitic and inflamatory religious prejudice.
I feel that everybody is in agreement with you ....we just weren`t really sure of your motives in bringing muslim anti semitism to the foreover and above all the christian anti semitism and hatred.
Because that was what the program and link was was about? dunno

25 Nov 2010

Quote by flower411
Although possibly backed into a corner Lost, I feel no one has actually provided me with an argument that makes these text book acceptable, so far to me, most arguments people have made here are excuses for the books, rather that valid reasons for them.
In my view, I feel I have the high ground, as there can be no justification for such teachings

I think you might want to reconsider that - I don't think anyone thinks the textbooks are acceptable. What is being said by some, is that there are things said in both holy books, there are unacceptable (to most) passages. Of course, that doesn't make either of them 'right'.
And by the way, I agree - there can be no justification for such teachings (in any school, state run or voluntary/part time) of hate, intolerance or encouragement of violence toward particular groups of people.
Yes you are correct, that is exactly what they are saying, and I do not disagree. I hold those passages from any books in equal contempt.
I must view things in another way to people here. When I see some thing distasteful I condemn it, and if I find some thing in another book which is equally distastefull, I will condemn that also. I don't understand that stance, If we condemn some one for murder, showing others who have also murdered does not lesson any thing.
Dave's question was, There is book out there that is in every hotel room that says homosexual activities is a sin. This has been read by millions in this country. Should this be banned as well?
Let me try to answer Dave's question a little better than I have until now, No, I would not wish to ban any old religious books, but would stop the production of modern school text books, aimed at children which take specific passages, focus on those pasages, which in turn, promote hatred of others.
I think that the only issue people had with your original post is that it seemed to be drawing particular attention to muslim texts and teachings rather than a general distaste for anti semitic and inflamatory religious prejudice.
I feel that everybody is in agreement with you ....we just weren`t really sure of your motives in bringing muslim anti semitism to the foreover and above all the christian anti semitism and hatred.
Because that was what the program and link was was about? dunno

And you hilighted the anti muslim stance on SH ....you could have mentioned the program and also mentioned other anti semitism and homophobia from other religions ....some of us were simply looking for a balanced view rather than an attack on muslims ...simple really.
Quite incorrect, I have not directly attacked any Muslims. I highlighted what I saw as a wrong, the religion of those involved in that wrong is irrelevant to me.
I mentioned the program in the first post, with a link.
Why do I need to mention other anti semitism. If I was talking about a murderer who was Islamic, I would not have to mention a Christian one for balance.