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assisted suicide?
Quote by kentswingers777
I know that GNV...what I was trying to prove is that in some cases even though a body has not been found, or in this case has long since gone, there can be enough evidence to charge and to get a jury to convict.
My additions to the post have crossed your one kent...
Quote by GnV
Let's look at this from another perspective which you might not have considered.
Ray Gosling is 71 years of age and, who is to say, might be suffering from early stages of dementia or some such condition. He may now honestly believe, racked with guilt about his earlier life, that he killed his lover. The truth, if it is ever known, may be entirely different. He may have been present at his lover's death and considering the pact they apparently made, may not have done anything but just watched him suffer helplessly and has been racked with guilt all these years.
He now believes that he assisted his lover's death to assuage these pangs of guilt - but in reality perhaps it never happened. His lover died "naturally" - whatever that means.
Now, isn't he entitled to the same protection of the law that we are all entitled to? He may believe he did for his lover, but unless there is incontrovertible evidence that proves this to be the case, the law must offer him protection.
The Police treated him very well whilst he was in custody. Maybe they have the same thoughts too. We shouldn't be too quick to judge him.
Quote by GnV
I know that GNV...what I was trying to prove is that in some cases even though a body has not been found, or in this case has long since gone, there can be enough evidence to charge and to get a jury to convict.
My additions to the post have crossed your one kent...
Quote by GnV
Let's look at this from another perspective which you might not have considered.
Ray Gosling is 71 years of age and, who is to say, might be suffering from early stages of dementia or some such condition. He may now honestly believe, racked with guilt about his earlier life, that he killed his lover. The truth, if it is ever known, may be entirely different. He may have been present at his lover's death and considering the pact they apparently made, may not have done anything but just watched him suffer helplessly and has been racked with guilt all these years.
He now believes that he assisted his lover's death to assuage these pangs of guilt - but in reality perhaps it never happened. His lover died "naturally" - whatever that means.
Now, isn't he entitled to the same protection of the law that we are all entitled to? He may believe he did for his lover, but unless there is incontrovertible evidence that proves this to be the case, the law must offer him protection.
The Police treated him very well whilst he was in custody. Maybe they have the same thoughts too. We shouldn't be too quick to judge him.
That sounds like a typical leftie Liberal arguement.....never had you down as one of those knitters GNV.
Your back to those bloody theories again....ya really must stop ya know.
Pragmatism does not necessarily refer to what is practical.
You should be careful when talking about "opposites". No philosophical position is ever really the "opposite" of another since there are different forms of the same theory and there are many subtle nuances. :wink:
Pragmatism does not necessarily refer to what is practical.
You should be careful when talking about "opposites". No philosophical position is ever really the "opposite" of another since there are different forms of the same theory and there are many subtle nuances. :wink:
Sex God
OK, I know this sounds mad, but as part of my degree, I have actually studied death and dying!!!
It is completely legal in this country for a doctor to end someone's life by giving them a medicine (for example morphine) which they know will end their life as long as this is not the primary reason for giving it. So if someone is dying (terminal) and in extreme pain, a doctor can intentionally give them high doses of morphine to relieve the pain knowing that it will also kill them. This is known as the doctine of double effect.
Anyone can visit their GP and complete what is called an advanced directive. This is where you can state that if you are ever in a position where you are injured or ill to such a degree where you need life support or will need a specific surgery and at the time you will not be able to consent, you can refuse treatment in advance using this advance directive. It has to be very specific giving examples of situations where you would like this to be applied and exaclty what treatment you are refusing. A solicitor should be present and your next of kin must be fully aware of the content of the document.
The problem with assisted suicide, is that people who have degenerative disorders may state their intent to die when they reach a certain stage in their illness but, when this time comes and they can no longer communicate, there is no way to confirm that now is the time. They may have changed their mind and have no way of telling you this. This would then be murder.
It is completely legal in this country for a doctor to end someone's life by giving them a medicine (for example morphine) which they know will end their life as long as this is not the primary reason for giving it. So if someone is dying (terminal) and in extreme pain, a doctor can intentionally give them high doses of morphine to relieve the pain knowing that it will also kill them. This is known as the doctine of double effect.
Anyone can visit their GP and complete what is called an advanced directive. This is where you can state that if you are ever in a position where you are injured or ill to such a degree where you need life support or will need a specific surgery and at the time you will not be able to consent, you can refuse treatment in advance using this advance directive. It has to be very specific giving examples of situations where you would like this to be applied and exaclty what treatment you are refusing. A solicitor should be present and your next of kin must be fully aware of the content of the document.
The problem with assisted suicide, is that people who have degenerative disorders may state their intent to die when they reach a certain stage in their illness but, when this time comes and they can no longer communicate, there is no way to confirm that now is the time. They may have changed their mind and have no way of telling you this. This would then be murder.
This is a subject very close to my heart as my ex father in law had terminal lung cancer and lived with me until a week before he died and he actually asked the doctors at the hospital when they said they couldnt help him anymore with treatment, could they put him down like people do with dogs and cats.
I watched for 6 months as my father in law slowly wasted away, he wasnt bothered about dying, he was more bothered about the fact that he wouldnt be able to do things for himself. He didnt want me to have to do everything for him, he wanted to go into a care home and just be left to die. My FIL lived with me and my children until a week before he died and then he only went into hospital as he said he didnt think he had long left and didnt want one of the children walking into his bedroom in the morning to find him dead.
The pain and suffering that my FIL went through was horrible, as my FIL said if we put down dogs and cats to save them suffering then why cant humans have the fght to decide when they want to die.
I watched for 6 months as my father in law slowly wasted away, he wasnt bothered about dying, he was more bothered about the fact that he wouldnt be able to do things for himself. He didnt want me to have to do everything for him, he wanted to go into a care home and just be left to die. My FIL lived with me and my children until a week before he died and then he only went into hospital as he said he didnt think he had long left and didnt want one of the children walking into his bedroom in the morning to find him dead.
The pain and suffering that my FIL went through was horrible, as my FIL said if we put down dogs and cats to save them suffering then why cant humans have the fght to decide when they want to die.
Quote by soul-girl
This is a subject very close to my heart as my ex father in law had terminal lung cancer and lived with me until a week before he died and he actually asked the doctors at the hospital when they said they couldnt help him anymore with treatment, could they put him down like people do with dogs and cats.
I watched for 6 months as my father in law slowly wasted away, he wasnt bothered about dying, he was more bothered about the fact that he wouldnt be able to do things for himself. He didnt want me to have to do everything for him, he wanted to go into a care home and just be left to die. My FIL lived with me and my children until a week before he died and then he only went into hospital as he said he didnt think he had long left and didnt want one of the children walking into his bedroom in the morning to find him dead.
The pain and suffering that my FIL went through was horrible, as my FIL said if we put down dogs and cats to save them suffering then why cant humans have the fght to decide when they want to die.
I work with terminal patients and see the desperation of a lot of people affected by this and many other horrible illnesses and diseases. I've been there when sufferers have cried to be allowed to die with some dignity and I've been there weeks, sometime months later when their disease-racked bodies have finally closed down. I saw the same thing with my own father 6 years ago.
When I have my uniform on, I'm not allowed to voice an opinion on this subject. All other times I whole heartedly agree with it. I've already warned my sons that, if I am ever diagnosed with a terminal illness and the docs tell me no more can be done, I will book my ticket to Switzerland. I already have a living will drafted to say that I refuse any intervention that will just prolong the inevitable - ie, no peg tubes, trachys etc. Let me die with my dignity and not as a wasted version of my former self. I don;t want my sons to remember me that way as I do my father
When I posted on this thread earlier on, I was undecided, perhaps still am. The two suicides in my family were of people who were healthy and escaping from their situations in life.
I can however see the case for the clinic situation in Switzerland becoming more universal for the most extreme cases of terminal illness only, but this must be done under the supervision of professionals within a legal framework fully debated and agreed by governments under the democratic process. The Ray Gosling position of a private citizen taking unilateral extermination action was entirely wrong whatever the circumsances.
Plim
I can however see the case for the clinic situation in Switzerland becoming more universal for the most extreme cases of terminal illness only, but this must be done under the supervision of professionals within a legal framework fully debated and agreed by governments under the democratic process. The Ray Gosling position of a private citizen taking unilateral extermination action was entirely wrong whatever the circumsances.
Plim
Sex God
Quote by Plimboy
When I posted on this thread earlier on, I was undecided, perhaps still am. The two suicides in my family were of people who were healthy and escaping from their situations in life.
I can however see the case for the clinic situation in Switzerland becoming more universal for the most extreme cases of terminal illness only, but this must be done under the supervision of professionals within a legal framework fully debated and agreed by governments under the democratic process. The Ray Gosling position of a private citizen taking unilateral extermination action was entirely wrong whatever the circumsances.
Plim
I don't know the details - but if Mr Gosling's friend asked him to do it - is it still wrong? I don't think it would be. The authorities always act like they have the right to make all the decisions - and we are complicit in letting them. But surely the authorities are only there to deal with situations where people don't agree?
Quote by foxylady2209
When I posted on this thread earlier on, I was undecided, perhaps still am. The two suicides in my family were of people who were healthy and escaping from their situations in life.
I can however see the case for the clinic situation in Switzerland becoming more universal for the most extreme cases of terminal illness only, but this must be done under the supervision of professionals within a legal framework fully debated and agreed by governments under the democratic process. The Ray Gosling position of a private citizen taking unilateral extermination action was entirely wrong whatever the circumsances.
Plim
I don't know the details - but if Mr Gosling's friend asked him to do it - is it still wrong? I don't think it would be. The authorities always act like they have the right to make all the decisions - and we are complicit in letting them. But surely the authorities are only there to deal with situations where people don't agree?
Intentional taking a life should only be done through operation of law. If you don't like a situation then you can lobby to get the law changed - well at least in theory.
Plim :sad:
After the dreadful debacle at Stafford, you can see where the assisted suicide lobby will get more attention.
For these poor people to have suffered so and then still die but in considerable pain, discomfort and in such an undignified way at the hands of the same "professionals" who decry assisted suicide, I don't find it difficult to side with the pro-lobby.
For these poor people to have suffered so and then still die but in considerable pain, discomfort and in such an undignified way at the hands of the same "professionals" who decry assisted suicide, I don't find it difficult to side with the pro-lobby.
find it very difficult to decide...
Firstly I do from time to time have to do some work in old peoples homes and see people in chairs, in what seems like a coma, dribbling from there mouth etc etc. And you think what an undignified way to live. You think that person was once fit and active etc etc. But there again, I don't know what is going on in there head. Inside they might be as happy as larry. In reality I just have no idea.
Secondly is the guilt you would feel, at being the one that decides a love one should die. My dog was had arthrtis, was in a degree of pain, and couldn't walk more than to the garden and back, for last year of its life. I felt the quality of life was not very good. I took her the vet, who actually said, she is 11 and now maybe had her time. And although he was willing to do the injection, it would be me, that had that final say. I couldn't do it. The guilt i felt every time I looked into her face. Just imagine that guilt, if it was your mother, father, son or daughter !!! Even though you were doing it for all the right reasons; even though all the doctors felt it was for the best; I would at least, still be racked with guilt for ever more !! I would not want that responsability.
Firstly I do from time to time have to do some work in old peoples homes and see people in chairs, in what seems like a coma, dribbling from there mouth etc etc. And you think what an undignified way to live. You think that person was once fit and active etc etc. But there again, I don't know what is going on in there head. Inside they might be as happy as larry. In reality I just have no idea.
Secondly is the guilt you would feel, at being the one that decides a love one should die. My dog was had arthrtis, was in a degree of pain, and couldn't walk more than to the garden and back, for last year of its life. I felt the quality of life was not very good. I took her the vet, who actually said, she is 11 and now maybe had her time. And although he was willing to do the injection, it would be me, that had that final say. I couldn't do it. The guilt i felt every time I looked into her face. Just imagine that guilt, if it was your mother, father, son or daughter !!! Even though you were doing it for all the right reasons; even though all the doctors felt it was for the best; I would at least, still be racked with guilt for ever more !! I would not want that responsability.
Sex God
this is a subject that is very relevant in our fmily at the moment my parents are un paid carers for a friend of theirs not constantly their friend has paid carers do the majority of the caring but the friend does spend a lot of time with my parents at thier home and if she needs to go anywhere like shopping or hospital appointments they take her so they are very close and play a huge part in her life and so obviously certain subjects come up and assisted suicide is one of them
the friend has degenerative MS and she is now chair bound and looking like it on't be all that long before she is bed bound and finds it all very hard to accept what is instore for her at the end which anyone who has anything to do with an MS sufferer at the end will tell you isn't nice
this friend has on a few occasions tried to take her own life already she has had enough and has no desire to carry on living as she now is there is no chance of her situation improving only deteriorating further so it has been decided that when she is ready my parents will accompany her to switzerland to help her carry out her wishes, i'm not sure when this will happen but i think it will be when she reaches the bed bound stage
my mum told me of the decision a short while ago and we discussed it at length and she made me promise that if she ever felt the need i would do the same for her and i would in a heartbeat without guilt now i don't know if that makes me a bad person but i just know i would want the same if it was me in that situation in fact i had already decided a long time ago tht if i was diagnosed with a deteriorating terminal illness then i would end my life myself whilst i was still able as i do not wish to put my loved ones in the predicament of having to make choices like that or to see me loose myself and have memories of me being a shell of my former self and just hope they forgive me my choices
the friend has degenerative MS and she is now chair bound and looking like it on't be all that long before she is bed bound and finds it all very hard to accept what is instore for her at the end which anyone who has anything to do with an MS sufferer at the end will tell you isn't nice
this friend has on a few occasions tried to take her own life already she has had enough and has no desire to carry on living as she now is there is no chance of her situation improving only deteriorating further so it has been decided that when she is ready my parents will accompany her to switzerland to help her carry out her wishes, i'm not sure when this will happen but i think it will be when she reaches the bed bound stage
my mum told me of the decision a short while ago and we discussed it at length and she made me promise that if she ever felt the need i would do the same for her and i would in a heartbeat without guilt now i don't know if that makes me a bad person but i just know i would want the same if it was me in that situation in fact i had already decided a long time ago tht if i was diagnosed with a deteriorating terminal illness then i would end my life myself whilst i was still able as i do not wish to put my loved ones in the predicament of having to make choices like that or to see me loose myself and have memories of me being a shell of my former self and just hope they forgive me my choices
Quote by GnV
Seems now that Ray Gosling is to be charged with wasting Police time...
I told you he wasn't guilty
So, to sum up.
The police arrested and questioned a man when they had no evidence of a crime actually occurring, and now they want to charge the man they arrested with wasting their time?
Am I the only one, etc...
Sex God
So let me get this straight.
If you are being tried and plead Guilty you get a shorter term than if you make them actually do any work. So admitting you did it is seen as favourable by the prosecutors.
But - -
If you confess to a possible crime and they find something, they prosecute. And if they don't find anything, they still prosecute.
Erm, hang on, there may be something a bit off there.
If you are being tried and plead Guilty you get a shorter term than if you make them actually do any work. So admitting you did it is seen as favourable by the prosecutors.
But - -
If you confess to a possible crime and they find something, they prosecute. And if they don't find anything, they still prosecute.
Erm, hang on, there may be something a bit off there.
Sex God
Quote by foxylady2209
So let me get this straight.
If you are being tried and plead Guilty you get a shorter term than if you make them actually do any work. So admitting you did it is seen as favourable by the prosecutors.
But - -
If you confess to a possible crime and they find something, they prosecute. And if they don't find anything, they still prosecute.
Erm, hang on, there may be something a bit off there.
it has nothing to do with law its now conviction rate quota thing :eeek:
