At last ! A policy worth voting for !!

3 Sep 2010

I hate hunting with hounds being called a sport. I hate what it is. I dont hate hunters. I hate what they do. I think making it a class thing sidesteps the issue completely and gives the hunt more strength in their argument about being victims of a class war. As so many have said people from all walks of life support hunting with dogs. Move on from that smoke screen point and oppose it for what it really is.
Its an act of cruelty. Nothing else. I hate it that these decent people cant or wont see the cruelty involved and try to justify it with all sorts of nonesence such as pest control at the same time as breeding their quarry for future 'fun'.
Its not likened to fishing or shooting, or domestic cats or anything else. If the arguement for it is that strong let it stand on its own!
Sport is where both sides have a chance to compete and win. The odds are not only stacked but when the fox does 'win' its dug out. It's not sport. Its barbaric, outdated and has much less inhumane alternatives that are just as much fun.

3 Sep 2010

After reading this thread I have a few questions that spring into my head.
Is it the "sport" that people do not like or the killing of the animal?
If the animal is a pest then it has to go, whether it is hunted, shot, poisoned, gassed or snared. Each one can be a quick death, but I bet most are not and they are drawn out, painful and the animal is in fear. So whichever way you deal with it, the animal is going to suffer in someway. To argue which one is less painful or fearful for the animal is, IMO, to argue whether to be hit by a 10 ton or 11 ton truck at 50 MPH.
So any form of pest control can be justified as cruel. Do people want to stop all pest control? Or only when it suits them? Which animals could be killed in a slow, agonising death and who gets to choose? Is it going to be the "dirty" rat or "fluffy" squirrel and fox that people wouldn't mind killing?
Looking at fox hunting on its own. If dogs were used and the animal is chased down and despatched with a couple of glum old gamekeepers would the law have come in? Would anybody have cared? So is it because people follow the hunt and enjoy the spectacle that they object to?
Last one, if it is animal cruelty that is the issue, where is the demand for all pest control (and possibly any type of animal husbandry) to stop and let things happen naturally?
Dave_Notts

3 Sep 2010

Its cruelty for fun. Dont kid yourself that its for pest control. There are far more effective ways to control pests. Breeding them isn't amongst the top ways. And most farmers that have pest problems deal with it themselves in the most effective way they can. Hunting with hounds is for tradition, nothing else.
And dont leave out the stag hunts. Deer are a problem if left unchecked. They have no natural preditors any more and can cause serious damage to the balance without being culled. But chasing them down with dogs is by far the most stressful and cruel way to manage that population. Its also a long way from being the most effective. A man with a shotgun can take 5 or 6 a day and they die with grass in their mouth. THe only argument for doing this is the 'sport' aspect. Dont dress it up as necessety.
Whats wrong with drag hunting? Why is that not acceptable?

3 Sep 2010

So pest control is ok and all other types of animal husbandry because it is "less cruel" and the bit you object to is the sport side of it? Blue mentioned it earlier where he said (paraphrasing as I am too lazy to go find his quote) just because people enjoy their work, why ban it?
If it gets rid of the problem, I couldn't care less if they came dressed up as clowns riding a penny farthing.
Dave_Notts

3 Sep 2010

No. Its the chasing down and tearing apart thing i have a problem with. I know plenty of people who use guns for pest control and enjoy it.
Anyway I was just putting forward my unwavering opinion on this subject. You've as much chance as changing my mind on it as I have changing yours.
I've been riding with people who hunt plenty of times to know that both sides are far too blinkered to ever be able to agree and that both sides will use whatever examples of cruelty they can to justify or strengthen our position. We can argue it out and never ever win. Or we can have a good canter and talk about something else. In the end we look at each other a little differently, we think the other is a bit of a nut job for believing what they do (how could they be so blind??) but the world keeps turning.
I'll never change my mind on how i feel about hunting with hounds. I celebrate the fact that its illegal but i know the law is a fragile one at best and flauted blatently so the victory is a hollow one.

3 Sep 2010

Penny farthings though? on that terrain? Now that would be worth following! lol

:lol:

3 Sep 2010

Quote by vampanya
snip...
Whats wrong with drag hunting? Why is that not acceptable?

I didn't think homophobia was really your sort of thing vamps...

3 Sep 2010

Ah he'd never had scored those furs with a hunt... they're in one peice still!

3 Sep 2010

Like someone has mentioned, there were that many loopholes in the law that the "victory" was never there. I think that only one person has ever been found guilty of fox hunting and that was a not a custodial sentance.
People can still use dogs for pest control so the chasing down and tearing apart is still happening. The question in my mind, is this type any more cruel then a slow lingering death by poison or a bad shot by a shotgun.
The law came in supposedly on the cruelty aspect, but the majority of arguments seems to focus on the classes. IMO if a law comes in for some reason then that reason should be paramount and not for scoring points. A bit like the smoking law, the reason was to reduce the death rate of non-smokers per-se, not to outcast folk.
As for penny farthings and clown suits..........I think I can see an idea coming on.
Dave_Notts

3 Sep 2010

Well as most here will know, I love fox hunting and stag hunting with hounds, although rarely get the time these days. Brought up in a very rural background, my grandfarther was a farrier who I spent all the summer holidays with as a child must have had a big influence on me. Also we had a hunt on our doorstep where I played as a child.
I will defend it to the last for many reasons, probably the highest reason is I am bias!
But equally I do not see it as any more cruel than any other form of pest control, and despite what some may feel/think here, it is about pest control in the main. In fact, and you can find this some where in this thread in a little more in depth, I strongly feel it is one of the least cruel ways of controlling the fox.
Is it wrong to enjoy your job, difficult one to answer. A man once said this to me, that he hunts foxes for the same reason you eat chicken, because I enjoy it. That is a fair point IMO and only leaves a few with the high moral ground. Almost always, at the point of the animal being torn apart it is long since dead, having witnessed all other forms of fox control, I feel that the rare time that a fox is put to some distress during death is a still far better than other methods. For instance, and this again can be found in this thread, the hunt carries out many task, two of which are the collection of fallen stock, dead cows, sheep, etc are collected free of charge for food for the hounds. Another is aside from official hunt days where all the follower's would be in tow, hunts control foxes that worry live stock. They would be informed of maybe a fox killing sheep, then on a morning when the Shepard finds a dead animal, he calls the master and they arrive with the hounds. The hunt then starts from the dead sheep and the troublesome fox is traced by the hounds. This can not be done by man, they can not insure that the actual fox causing sheep deaths is taken out clean, only the hounds can do this.
As a sub note here, shot guns are almost never used for dear stalking, but are some times used for fox shooting.
I do not like the fact that class is so often the main reason behind some peoples hate for hunting. In fact so much of this prejudice was broken down by the campaign to save hunting, and in many ways it was a god send for the hunting community as it has had a renewed interest with support at an all time high. Hunting transcends all classes, OK you have the toff's/knobs at the front but below are every man and his dog who are involved on so many levels. I know why some do not like some of the so called toff's as I have had many a run in with them, but just like any other walk of life there are the ass holes and the nice ones.
Try not to Analise to much Dave_Knotts wink

3 Sep 2010

personally I wish they would do cat hunting, every day I have to go into my front and back garden clean up the mess the local cats leave behind, as its not safe for my kids to play outside otherwise.

3 Sep 2010

Quote by soulgirl
personally I wish they would do cat hunting, every day I have to go into my front and back garden clean up the mess the local cats leave behind, as its not safe for my kids to play outside otherwise.

Unfortunately whether you like it or not, cats are not covered under the animals act for trespass.
Cats are deemed by the law to be " free spirits ", and can legally roam wherever they choose but....they are still covered by the same animal cruelty laws as any other animal.
Cats and trespass.....
" The situation regarding trespass was clarified in 1971 and cats once more became "free spirits" under the law ".
Annoying yes but the law protects the cat.....there are some very good products on the market that can prevent cats from messing in your garden though.

4 Sep 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
.....there are some very good products on the market that can prevent cats from messing in your garden though.

one of these perhaps?

4 Sep 2010

That's cruel GNV. lol

4 Sep 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
That's cruel GNV.

but effective!

4 Sep 2010

I have two moggies, I should report you to the relevant authorities.
Oh bollox your in France. lol

:lol:

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Well as most here will know, I love fox hunting and stag hunting with hounds, although rarely get the time these days. Brought up in a very rural background, my grandfarther was a farrier who I spent all the summer holidays with as a child must have had a big influence on me. Also we had a hunt on our doorstep where I played as a child.
I will defend it to the last for many reasons, probably the highest reason is I am bias!
But equally I do not see it as any more cruel than any other form of pest control, and despite what some may feel/think here, it is about pest control in the main. In fact, and you can find this some where in this thread in a little more in depth, I strongly feel it is one of the least cruel ways of controlling the fox.
Is it wrong to enjoy your job, difficult one to answer. A man once said this to me, that he hunts foxes for the same reason you eat chicken, because I enjoy it. That is a fair point IMO and only leaves a few with the high moral ground. Almost always, at the point of the animal being torn apart it is long since dead, having witnessed all other forms of fox control, I feel that the rare time that a fox is put to some distress during death is a still far better than other methods. For instance, and this again can be found in this thread, the hunt carries out many task, two of which are the collection of fallen stock, dead cows, sheep, etc are collected free of charge for food for the hounds. Another is aside from official hunt days where all the follower's would be in tow, hunts control foxes that worry live stock. They would be informed of maybe a fox killing sheep, then on a morning when the Shepard finds a dead animal, he calls the master and they arrive with the hounds. The hunt then starts from the dead sheep and the troublesome fox is traced by the hounds. This can not be done by man, they can not insure that the actual fox causing sheep deaths is taken out clean, only the hounds can do this.
As a sub note here, shot guns are almost never used for dear stalking, but are some times used for fox shooting.
I do not like the fact that class is so often the main reason behind some peoples hate for hunting. In fact so much of this prejudice was broken down by the campaign to save hunting, and in many ways it was a god send for the hunting community as it has had a renewed interest with support at an all time high. Hunting transcends all classes, OK you have the toff's/knobs at the front but below are every man and his dog who are involved on so many levels. I know why some do not like some of the so called toff's as I have had many a run in with them, but just like any other walk of life there are the ass holes and the nice ones.
Try not to Analise to much Dave_Knotts

i agree about all sorts following hunting,but can never get over the cruelty of the death.A shot gun provides a clean painless kill.
As some one who enjoy shooting, you would think that I would agree with you. However all too often the farmer is not a good shot, he does not spend hours shooting, they often olny pick up the gun on odd occations to detroy vermin. This mothod is also indescriminate and does not tackle the rogue fox directly.

4 Sep 2010

Leave the poor bloody foxes alone ya cruel lot. lol

On a bigger scale I prefer animals to humans most of the time anyway.
I have a adult fox that comes into my garden, and my year old cat has made it his mission to be his mate.
I have a fantastic image of two weeks ago when I saw both the fox and my cat sitting about a foot away from each other, with no aggression at all between the two of them.
Now either the fox thinks it is a cat, or the cat thinks he is a fox, but whatever the case it was a memorable sight.

4 Sep 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Leave the poor bloody foxes alone ya cruel lot.
On a bigger scale I prefer animals to humans most of the time anyway.
I have a adult fox that comes into my garden, and my year old cat has made it his mission to be his mate.
I have a fantastic image of two weeks ago when I saw both the fox and my cat sitting about a foot away from each other, with no aggression at all between the two of them.
Now either the fox thinks it is a cat, or the cat thinks he is a fox, but whatever the case it was a memorable sight.

One would liken it to a photo of kent and Benny sitting close to each other....
bolt

4 Sep 2010

Nothing worse than an over excited yuppie.

4 Sep 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Nothing worse than an over excited yuppie.

or being beaten by a teen wink

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Kaznkev

i agree about all sorts following hunting,but can never get over the cruelty of the death.A shot gun provides a clean painless kill.

As some one who enjoy shooting, you would think that I would agree with you. However all too often the farmer is not a good shot, he does not spend hours shooting, they often olny pick up the gun on odd occations to detroy vermin. This mothod is also indescriminate and does not tackle the rogue fox directly.
But you could say the same about the grouse and pheasant shoots the Duke of Northumberland organises up of these are bought up for corporate jollies by people who pick up a gun once a fire indiscriminatly and without skill.i was stopped from earning money beating as a teen when a friend almost got shot in the face by an over excited yuppie.
did she look like a grouse then dunno

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
did she look like a grouse then

may be not, but I bet she ducked...

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Kaznkev

i agree about all sorts following hunting,but can never get over the cruelty of the death.A shot gun provides a clean painless kill.

As some one who enjoy shooting, you would think that I would agree with you. However all too often the farmer is not a good shot, he does not spend hours shooting, they often olny pick up the gun on odd occations to detroy vermin. This mothod is also indescriminate and does not tackle the rogue fox directly.
But you could say the same about the grouse and pheasant shoots the Duke of Northumberland organises up of these are bought up for corporate jollies by people who pick up a gun once a fire indiscriminatly and without skill.i was stopped from earning money beating as a teen when a friend almost got shot in the face by an over excited yuppie.
Sadly this kind of shoot has all to often become very commercial, not a problem in its self but some times the welfare of the birds are not always at the forefront of the Keepers minds.
The hope is that they have some well trained dogs and pickers to collect any injured birds, due to poor shooting and dispatch them as quickly as possible

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Kaznkev

i agree about all sorts following hunting,but can never get over the cruelty of the death.A shot gun provides a clean painless kill.

As some one who enjoy shooting, you would think that I would agree with you. However all too often the farmer is not a good shot, he does not spend hours shooting, they often olny pick up the gun on odd occations to detroy vermin. This mothod is also indescriminate and does not tackle the rogue fox directly.
But you could say the same about the grouse and pheasant shoots the Duke of Northumberland organises up of these are bought up for corporate jollies by people who pick up a gun once a fire indiscriminatly and without skill.i was stopped from earning money beating as a teen when a friend almost got shot in the face by an over excited yuppie.
Sadly this kind of shoot has all to often become very commercial, not a problem in its self but some times the welfare of the birds are not always at the forefront of the Keepers minds.
The hope is that they have some well trained dogs and pickers to collect any injured birds, due to poor shooting and dispatch them as quickly as possible
i know the local keeper he is good,but still you seem to be saying some forms of shooting are worse than others.
Then let me correct myself, the problem lies more with the persons behind the gun, as discribed by your self

4 Sep 2010

you gotta see it here in France to believe it!
The hole themselves up in a hunting lodge in the middle of the fôret on a Friday night, get absolutely pissed on home made hooch and then at dawn go out shooting at each other....
So many problems with this, the hunt police now insist on them all wearing yellow jackets so they have a better target to shoot at!

4 Sep 2010

No tell them to leave the jackets off.
That way they can shoot as many Frenchmen as they like. lol

4 Sep 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
No tell them to leave the jackets off.
That way they can shoot as many Frenchmen as they like.

For Sale

Never fired, dropped twice

4 Sep 2010

:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:
Slight staining?

4 Sep 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
No tell them to leave the jackets off.
That way they can shoot as many Frenchmen as they like.

For Sale

Never fired, dropped twice

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
Bit unfair Blue, they only dropped it once
Dave_Notts