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Baked buns safety ban
Quote by Dave__Notts
If somebody employs somebody and do not check the person they are employing are competant.........then you have to wonder why they are in the job to employ somebody who is not competant in the first place.
How does someone check if a member of staff is competent to do the job at the start?
They can only go on past job experiences and possible references and that persons honesty at the interview.
Some people come across as being all things great to start with, but after a while are obviously fecking useless, a case in point......ALL the wankers involved in the baby P scandal from the HEAD of Harringays Social Servies, to the Social workers ( degree educated ), down to the Doctor ( minimum seven year degree ).
People can do a job they are paid to do, but the trouble is some end up going over board on interpretations of what is safe and healthy, and also employees in all walks take risks.
Not as easy in the real world Davey to spot a complete numpty......it seems though that councils employ a fecking lot of them though !!
In the real world people will check on their qualifications, check their experience, check their history and check what they are doing.
This is where laziness on the employers part fails to detect a numpty.
If we look at this in an example and an area what you know about. You run a printing firm, so are an expert in how this industry works. You employ a "H&S expert" to help to look at certain areas that you are responsible for. This expert starts telling you something that is obviously wrong as you know industry standards do not require what they are trying to get you to do. This should start alarm bells ringing that the person you have employed is not competant to be helping you in this area of work.
If an employer just employs someone and lets them have free-rule then the competance issue should be looking at the employer......as they are the numpty. It is the employers business and they need to ensure that these people are who they say they are.
The printing industry was and is full of numpties that the HSE has to write specific guidance to show them how to do their job safely. Unfortunately a number of them still ignore this basic guidance and lose bits of themselves each year. Common sense? Not that freely available from what I can see.
In all jobs there are people who cock up and are detected and dealt with. This is throughout the public and private sector, with most deaths, injuries and ill health being in the private sector.
Dave_Notts
This is where laziness on the employers part fails to detect a numpty.
If we look at this in an example and an area what you know about. You run a printing firm, so are an expert in how this industry works. You employ a "H&S expert" to help to look at certain areas that you are responsible for. This expert starts telling you something that is obviously wrong as you know industry standards do not require what they are trying to get you to do. This should start alarm bells ringing that the person you have employed is not competant to be helping you in this area of work.
If an employer just employs someone and lets them have free-rule then the competance issue should be looking at the employer......as they are the numpty. It is the employers business and they need to ensure that these people are who they say they are.
The printing industry was and is full of numpties that the HSE has to write specific guidance to show them how to do their job safely. Unfortunately a number of them still ignore this basic guidance and lose bits of themselves each year. Common sense? Not that freely available from what I can see.
In all jobs there are people who cock up and are detected and dealt with. This is throughout the public and private sector, with most deaths, injuries and ill health being in the private sector.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Max777
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
Quote by Dave__Notts
In the real world people will check on their qualifications, check their experience, check their history and check what they are doing.
This is where laziness on the employers part fails to detect a numpty.
If we look at this in an example and an area what you know about. You run a printing firm, so are an expert in how this industry works. You employ a "H&S expert" to help to look at certain areas that you are responsible for. This expert starts telling you something that is obviously wrong as you know industry standards do not require what they are trying to get you to do. This should start alarm bells ringing that the person you have employed is not competant to be helping you in this area of work.
If an employer just employs someone and lets them have free-rule then the competance issue should be looking at the employer......as they are the numpty. It is the employers business and they need to ensure that these people are who they say they are.
The printing industry was and is full of numpties that the HSE has to write specific guidance to show them how to do their job safely. Unfortunately a number of them still ignore this basic guidance and lose bits of themselves each year. Common sense? Not that freely available from what I can see.
In all jobs there are people who cock up and are detected and dealt with. This is throughout the public and private sector, with most deaths, injuries and ill health being in the private sector.
Dave_Notts
Yes Davey you are correct.
Trouble is though numpties are alive and well in all professions, not just in H and S .
I run a machine without top guards on....my choice to do so, I do not need anyone telling me the dangers of this, and ultimately it is my health and my safety I am putting at risk as nobody else runs the printing press.
Now IF I was to employ another printer I would of course replace those guards, but another employer would possibly not. That is where HandS are good, to force employers to abide by the law where otherwise they would not, and put their staff at risk.
Employers are responsible for the safety of their staff to a degree, and also the employees also have to take responsibility for their own safety as well.
Like most things in life....most of it is based on pure and simple common sense.
Quote by kentswingers777
Yes Davey you are correct.
Trouble is though numpties are alive and well in all professions, not just in H and S .
I run a machine without top guards on....my choice to do so, I do not need anyone telling me the dangers of this, and ultimately it is my health and my safety I am putting at risk as nobody else runs the printing press.
Now IF I was to employ another printer I would of course replace those guards, but another employer would possibly not. That is where HandS are good, to force employers to abide by the law where otherwise they would not, and put their staff at risk.
Employers are responsible for the safety of their staff to a degree, and also the employees also have to take responsibility for their own safety as well.
Like most things in life....most of it is based on pure and simple common sense.
You tuely believe there is nothing wrong with your actions and believe that other people have to abide by common sense.
Looking at your scenario, a machine that is known to be dangerous is fitted with guards that you remove (Good common sense
). Your staff then see this happening and will start doing the same as "The boss" does it. You are building into your business a culture of sod safety, lets just get the job done. Your actions will motivate the workforce to do something that could harm them. Removing guards, etc will not always result in an injury. It is the same as Russian roulette, just one day it may happen then this will have to stay in the memory of those that remain.If you worked alone and done this, then yes you are breaking the law but who would know? Who would it harm? If an accident happened then the individual is to blame and could face the ultimate result of death. In this instance the HSE would do nothing as they have already paid the price.........just maybe enter them into the Darwin Awards for removing themselves from the gene pool by a stupid act.
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
I wouldn`t be so sure about that !!! The machine isn`t dangerous but it could cause harm to somebody who is not careful when using it and therefore the manufacturer has fitted guards to stop numpties from harming themselves. In the hands of a skilled operator there is probably no more danger than crossing the road.
Bang on the money.
:thumbup::thumbup:
Quote by flower411
Looking at your scenario, a machine that is known to be dangerous is fitted with guards that you remove
I wouldn`t be so sure about that !!! The machine isn`t dangerous but it could cause harm to somebody who is not careful when using it and therefore the manufacturer has fitted guards to stop numpties from harming themselves. In the hands of a skilled operator there is probably no more danger than crossing the road.
It`s interesting ...we run a riding centre and livery yard ...I was doing risk assessments the other day and I`ve decided that if nobody gets on the stupid fucking animals in the first place the risk of injury will be greatly reduced :thumbup:
They`ve all started whining about how I should use my common sense but it seems obvious to me that not riding the horses is going to be much safer
Have you ever checked out the first section of the Compensation Act 2006? The Uren case is relevant too..
Quote by awayman
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
Orgasminator
Quote by flower411
Have you ever checked out the first section of the Compensation Act 2006? The Uren case is relevant too..
Robert Uren claims to have been encouraged to take part in a dangerous activity ....I tell everybody that I see on a horse that they`re mad and shouldn`t be sitting on the stupid animal in the first place cos it`s dangerous.
Id be even more of a H&S nightmare then. I ride my horse without wearing a hard hat most of the time. I give it plenty of thought, assess the risk and take it anyway. Its my risk. H&S can go slide a hedgehog up its arse.
I ride hatless because its fun and i love to feel the wind in my hair. Not much beats that. I know what'll happen if I fell off. Am I irresponisble? yes perhaps. But enjoying life every time i go out for a ride? Absolutely!
no hedgehogs were harmed in the making of this post
Orgasminator
Quote by flower411
Have you ever checked out the first section of the Compensation Act 2006? The Uren case is relevant too..
Robert Uren claims to have been encouraged to take part in a dangerous activity ....I tell everybody that I see on a horse that they`re mad and shouldn`t be sitting on the stupid animal in the first place cos it`s dangerous.
Id be even more of a H&S nightmare then. I ride my horse without wearing a hard hat most of the time. I give it plenty of thought, assess the risk and take it anyway. Its my risk. H&S can go slide a hedgehog up its arse.
I ride hatless because its fun and i love to feel the wind in my hair. Not much beats that. I know what'll happen if I fell off. Am I irresponisble? yes perhaps. But enjoying life every time i go out for a ride? Absolutely!
no hedgehogs were harmed in the making of this post
Quote by vampanya
Id be even more of a H&S nightmare then. I ride my horse without wearing a hard hat most of the time. I give it plenty of thought, assess the risk and take it anyway. Its my risk. H&S can go slide a hedgehog up its arse.
Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974.
Riding a horse is not a work activity, so H&S legislation does not apply to you. A private person can do whatever they want to do.........it's their life to live, or die. This is seen everyday by watching the cyclists go by.......some have helmets, some don't. Some fall off and some don't. In hospital those not wearing helmets have head injuries where those wearing them seem to not have. All choices and the only people who they have to answer to is themselves........as it should be.
Dave_Notts
Quote by vampanya
Have you ever checked out the first section of the Compensation Act 2006? The Uren case is relevant too..
Robert Uren claims to have been encouraged to take part in a dangerous activity ....I tell everybody that I see on a horse that they`re mad and shouldn`t be sitting on the stupid animal in the first place cos it`s dangerous.
Id be even more of a H&S nightmare then. I ride my horse without wearing a hard hat most of the time. I give it plenty of thought, assess the risk and take it anyway. Its my risk. H&S can go slide a hedgehog up its arse.
I ride hatless because its fun and i love to feel the wind in my hair. Not much beats that. I know what'll happen if I fell off. Am I irresponisble? yes perhaps. But enjoying life every time i go out for a ride? Absolutely!
no hedgehogs were harmed in the making of this post
Quote by kentswingers777
I wouldn`t be so sure about that !!! The machine isn`t dangerous but it could cause harm to somebody who is not careful when using it and therefore the manufacturer has fitted guards to stop numpties from harming themselves. In the hands of a skilled operator there is probably no more danger than crossing the road.
Bang on the money.
:thumbup::thumbup:
It is dangerous otherwise it wouldn't need guarding
In the hands of a skilled operative doing something they should do then any accident should never happen. Unfortunately a human is entered into the scenario. These get tired, rush, skip procedures, etc. The guard is there to prevent this.
If training is all that is required then there should not be any deaths by accident. Sometimes an engineering control to prevent someone inadvertently harming themselves is required as standard. To then remove the guard is stupid in the extreme.
A fellah I knew always said the same about safety. What a waste of time. He had his ways and always done them and had been in the job all his life. One day he removed the riving knife to speed up the operation on a circular saw. The wood kicked back and he died. He paid the ultimate price for trying to speed up the process.......but he also left a wife without a husband, two sons without a father, and grandchildren without a grandfather just because of a tuppence ha'penny safety device. It is just not your own life you can ruin but those around you.
Now to ride a horse in a livery is not at work for those clients who are riding their own horse. If they wish to ride bollock naked then they are free to do it. It is part of life choices.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Max777
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
Quote by Dave__Notts
It is dangerous otherwise it wouldn't need guarding
The guards are there for no other reason than to make the printers job a lot more difficult.
The guards are at the TOP of the machine and the only way you would want to get there would be to make an adjustment, which you can only do when the machine is NOT going.
A ridiculous addition to the machine and even mechanics in the past have stated they serve no purpose other than for cosmetic purpose.
Hope that answers your question.
So Davey..............madness or sensible?
I think that whilst it was a sad accident, I cannot stop laughing trying to imagine council workers up a tree, taking down all the conkers.
What a total waste of taxpayers money.
" A spokesman for the Health and Safety Executive said: 'There is no written policy concerning conkers on trees ".
Maybe they should have told the tossers down the local council offices.
They are obviously a prime target for cuts this council, as obviously they have too much money floating around.
I think that whilst it was a sad accident, I cannot stop laughing trying to imagine council workers up a tree, taking down all the conkers.
What a total waste of taxpayers money.
" A spokesman for the Health and Safety Executive said: 'There is no written policy concerning conkers on trees ".
Maybe they should have told the tossers down the local council offices.
They are obviously a prime target for cuts this council, as obviously they have too much money floating around.
Quote by awayman
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
You think that was precisely your point......
Quote by kentswingers777
So Davey..............madness or sensible?
As I keep repeating, a single person making a decision that has no basis in law. Kenny, The HSE and Environmental Health enforce H&S in the majority of workplaces within the UK. The rest of the Council are similar to private industry where they work to their own policies. Neither the HSE or Environmental Health have decided they should do this. They have taken their own decision to do it. So it is not "H&S" but individuals that are getting 2 & 2 and coming up with 5. I haven't read the link as there are hundreds of crap decisions being made by prats in every workplace that look and sound stupid or they go to the other extreme and end up hurting people.
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
I use a lot of power tools in my work and for hobbies. Many of them are impossible to make foolproof........too many safety features and they would simply cease to function !
There will always be middle ground between machinery that performs its function as safely as possible and machinery that will not do what it`s supposed to do.
Only the operator can make the ultimate decision as to what they consider is safe and no matter what we do some things will always carry an element of danger that can`t be eliminated.
Accidents will happen....people will be injured and some will die.
The only way to stop the accidents is to stop using the tools.
People will always find ways to maim or kill themselves ....no amount of health and safety regulations will ever stop that. It`s one of the things that makes us free ....the freedom to be irresponsible.
For the record ....I moan incessantly at mrs f for riding horses over jumps ...it`s dangerous and irresponsible
Machinery directives ensure the machines are safe as reasonably practicable but will always require some skill to use safely. The directive or associated regulations ensures that the machine can still work and do its job.
In fact the new work equipment regulations are more sensible than the British regulations from the 50's & 60's where they required all equipment that rotated to be enclosed. Now think how you would use a grinder? So the old laws were not workable and a blind eye was turned, now the regulations make it specific to these types of equipment and have a sensible approach to using this type of equipment.
So by throwing "too many safety features and they would simply cease to function" has already been identified and given the user the freedom to decide what they need to do a job safely. Can't say fairer than that can we? Exactly what you wanted to do.
The law isn't interested in an idiot that kills themselves, it is when their act or omission harms others, thats when the law steps in. Google any prosecution for H&S (prosecution Kenny and not a civil claim or paper headline) and you will see the idiotic things that people do to save a buck or two.
Dave_Notts
Quote by kentswingers777
It is dangerous otherwise it wouldn't need guarding
The guards are there for no other reason than to make the printers job a lot more difficult.
The guards are to prevent entry of a person into a piece of rotating machinery. Any other reason is being presented for your justification of your act of removing guards in a workplace to save a buck or two. I truly hope you don't get bitten.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Max777
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
You think that was precisely your point......
I'm more likely to know what I think than you do - or is this part of the clique's game of making constant ad hominem attacks?
Quote by awayman
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
You think that was precisely your point......
I'm more likely to know what I think than you do - or is this part of the clique's game of making constant ad hominem attacks?
You were the one that said you think that was precisely your point, I merely echoed your words.
Which clique would that be then, obviously not the Marxist one?
Quote by awayman
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
You think that was precisely your point......
I'm more likely to know what I think than you do - or is this part of the clique's game of making constant ad hominemattacks?
just in case someone needs to work out what this means...........well some people may
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Up here we have one school which has a catchment area the size of the area encompassed by the M25. Some of the villages in that catchment area have bus services only some days of the week, and haven't seen a train since the 1950s. We have schoolkids up here who do seventy mile roundtrips by taxi and bus to get to school. One of our villages still had snow on the ground in March - and all you can do is whinge about how people won;t do what you want to make your life easier....
Which school is that?
Haydon Bridge High School
I fail to see the relevance of your argument. You are citing a rather extreme case of a school in a very rural area, Kenty is talking of urban schools. There really is no comparison.
You mean what Kenty says doesn't go for schools everywhere?
I think that was precisely my point, about not generalizing from the specific.
You think that was precisely your point......
I'm more likely to know what I think than you do - or is this part of the clique's game of making constant ad hominemattacks?
just in case someone needs to work out what this means...........well some people may
Dave_Notts
:thumbup:
Quote by awayman
or is this part of the clique's game of making constant ad hominem attacks?
Oh dear.....are you actually for real or what???
Davey has a fair point indeed.
Oh dear is the Republic of Swinging Heaven it seems at an end?
You must feel all alone, but what I would say about your above comment is.............how black is your fecking kettle again??
"They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed".
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Never a truer word spoken in jest.
Quote by Dave__Notts
As I keep repeating, a single person making a decision that has no basis in law
It may well be single people making a decision Davey but............there are hundreds of these " single people " making these decisions up and down the country.
These are not isolated incidents, if only they were.
It does not have to have any basis in law, as who is going to challenge a lot of these in a court of law??
Banning playing conkers is a decision a Headmaster made in HIS school....were even any laws broken there at all?
He made a decision which went unchallenged, there are loads of other examples of this happening, which means it does not have any basis as it will never be challenged....that is the whole point.
Quote by kentswingers777
It may well be single people making a decision Davey but............there are hundreds of these " single people " making these decisions up and down the country.
These are not isolated incidents, if only they were.
It does not have to have any basis in law, as who is going to challenge a lot of these in a court of law??
Banning playing conkers is a decision a Headmaster made in HIS school....were even any laws broken there at all?
He made a decision which went unchallenged, there are loads of other examples of this happening, which means it does not have any basis as it will never be challenged....that is the whole point.
Like all bosses, it is his ball and he can take it away at any time. That is the rules in being boss. Whatever they say, goes.
What you are talking about here is a boss who has cocked up. Yep, bosses do that sometimes. It is life in business.
What you haven't been able to prove is the rediculousness of H&S legislation. I agree with you that people make stupid decisions, but the law does not support their decisions.
The main ones that I laugh my at are the two that people believe are the law. 1) You have to wear a hard hat on a construction site all the time 2) Every piece of portable electrical equipment needs PAT testing by a qualified electrician.
Dave_Notts