Capital punishment ??

27 May 2013

Quote by Too Hot
The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough.
The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.

I didn't have to dig at all to find any details regarding the murder of Mohammed Saleem. It would appear that most mainstream newspapers reported it on their websites. I can't say whether it was reported in the actual newspapers as I don't read them.
Murders are an all too common occurrence, most of which do not receive national news coverage. The difference with the murder of Lee Rigby was that it was carried out in full public view, by people who claimed to have committed the murder for political reasons and who obviously wanted to attract as much publicity as possible.
I'm sure that had Mr Saleem been murdered in similar circumstances to Lee Rigby by two members of the EDL, the media coverage would have been just as extensive and and the focus would equally have been on the racial aspect of the crime.

27 May 2013

Quote by Max777
Murders are an all too common occurrence, most of which do not receive national news coverage. The difference with the murder of Lee Rigby was that it was carried out in full public view, by people who claimed to have committed the murder for political reasons and who obviously wanted to attract as much publicity as possible.
I'm sure that had Mr Saleem been murdered in similar circumstances to Lee Rigby by two members of the EDL, the media coverage would have been just as extensive and and the focus would equally have been on the racial aspect of the crime.

Murder isn't common at all in the UK. It has one of the lowest rates in the world at 1.2 murders per 100,000 head of population.
I think you are quite correct in the fact that if 2 murderers had committed such an atrocity in the name of christianity and stood waiting to be interviewed and caught by the police, then that would have splattered its way across every news/media reporting outlet.
They way this brutal act was portrayed and reported got the attentioin the killers wanted, also by referring to them as terrorists legitimised, in their eyes, what they did.
Should never have shown the videos and only referred to them as common thugs.

27 May 2013

Quote by Rogue_Trader
Murders are an all too common occurrence, most of which do not receive national news coverage. The difference with the murder of Lee Rigby was that it was carried out in full public view, by people who claimed to have committed the murder for political reasons and who obviously wanted to attract as much publicity as possible.
I'm sure that had Mr Saleem been murdered in similar circumstances to Lee Rigby by two members of the EDL, the media coverage would have been just as extensive and and the focus would equally have been on the racial aspect of the crime.

Murder isn't common at all in the UK. It has one of the lowest rates in the world at 1.2 murders per 100,000 head of population.
I think you are quite correct in the fact that if 2 murderers had committed such an atrocity in the name of christianity and stood waiting to be interviewed and caught by the police, then that would have splattered its way across every news/media reporting outlet.
They way this brutal act was portrayed and reported got the attentioin the killers wanted, also by referring to them as terrorists legitimised, in their eyes, what they did.
Should never have shown the videos and only referred to them as common thugs.
I think that at over 10 murders a week, it can be said to be an all too common occurrence. The fact that we have one of the lowest murder rates in the world is something that we should be grateful for but 10 per week is still 10 too many.
The point I was making is how many of those 10 receive national news coverage?
Is it not correct that the media reported the full facts of the Lee Rigby murder? The videos would have come into the public domain regardless and then the media would have been accused of a cover up.

27 May 2013

Quote by Max777
The point I was making is how many of those 10 receive national news coverage?

Why should they receive national coverage? How does a murder in Scotland affect me here in Devon? The key here is national news. News that is worthy to affect or to be of interest to the public nationally.
Again, I would argue that these murderers did not deserve such coverage.

27 May 2013

Quote by Rogue_Trader
The point I was making is how many of those 10 receive national news coverage?

Why should they receive national coverage? How does a murder in Scotland affect me here in Devon? The key here is national news. News that is worthy to affect or to be of interest to the public nationally.
Again, I would argue that these murderers did not deserve such coverage.
It was Too Hot that accused the media of bias for not reporting the two murders equally. I simply made the point that only a small minority of murders make national news.
So you don't believe that the murder of Lee Rigby worthy of national news coverage?

27 May 2013

Firstly may I say the cold bloodied killing of Lee Rigby was ofcause worthy of national coverage, and we should all be outraged and all be on our guard.
However what we must also must be careful of, is the frenzy of hysteria that can be whipped up by newspapers and also on social networking sites. This was a brutal killing by two mad men...that happen to be Muslims. I have heard so many times before murderers of prostitutes, say God told them to do it !! we don't then go round hassling all church goers ?
we all need to keep things in perspective. There are good and bad in all creeds, colours and religions. If we now separate and cause friction between religions, is that not what the terrorists would have wanted. If we now live in fear of each other just because we come from different backgrounds, then they have won, mission accomplished.
What we must all do, every creed, colour and religion, is come together in a united condemnation of violence of any sort, towards any other human being. That way they lose...and we win.

27 May 2013

Quote by deancannock
Firstly may I say the cold bloodied killing of Lee Rigby was ofcause worthy of national coverage, and we should all be outraged and all be on our guard.
However what we must also must be careful of, is the frenzy of hysteria that can be whipped up by newspapers and also on social networking sites. This was a brutal killing by two mad men...that happen to be Muslims. I have heard so many times before murderers of prostitutes, say God told them to do it !! we don't then go round hassling all church goers ?
we all need to keep things in perspective. There are good and bad in all creeds, colours and religions. If we now separate and cause friction between religions, is that not what the terrorists would have wanted. If we now live in fear of each other just because we come from different backgrounds, then they have won, mission accomplished.
What we must all do, every creed, colour and religion, is come together in a united condemnation of violence of any sort, towards any other human being. That way they lose...and we win.

100% :thumbup:

28 May 2013

Quote by Geordiecpl2001
Thanks for the replies, but none answered the specific question.
So I'll change it round a bit.
The question now is;
If UKIP promised a referendum on Capital Punishment as part of their manifesto would it make you more or less likely to vote for them ?
For me, it would make me more likely to vote for them, even tho I may vote against Capital Punishment, I'd like the chance to have my say.
John

Well personally speaking I thought my answer was clear, I am totally against the death penalty and therefore it is more likely that any party promising a referendum on such a matter would be less likely to get my vote, that said if a party said they were "going to bring back the death penalty" I would vote against them, if a party proposed a referendum I would have to think about it, I believe in referendums I believe that the view of the people should be heard, I would just worry that many would make a knee jerk choice rather than think it through.

28 May 2013

Quote by Too Hot
The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough.
The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.

I agree that this is a grotesque crime of equal proportion to that of the murder of the soldier, but I plead innocence to the media's lack of reporting in the matter, I do not buy newspapers and I rarely watch the news, when I do watch the news I watch it on SKY/VIRGIN and use different channels to check what is being said, I often find that the reporting in different countries puts a different perspective on things.
Those that buy newspapers, who are the worst for twisting the facts, ommitting important information, slanted views and the like are supporting the things they do.
The media have been doing it for decades and yet some people still support them in their actions then bemoan that they do it.

28 May 2013

Hello forumites, pretty new to the site, thought I'd try out the forum.
Capital punishment, cant decide if I'm for it or against it. Plenty of argument for either side......
Unless its part of a wider strategy to fix everything though, its just another sticky plaster, so you can see my dilema.
Dave.

28 May 2013

Quote by Skyndave
Hello forumites, pretty new to the site, thought I'd try out the forum.
Capital punishment, cant decide if I'm for it or against it. Plenty of argument for either side......
Unless its part of a wider strategy to fix everything though, its just another sticky plaster, so you can see my dilema.
Dave.

yes welcome...and with pictures like you have...very very welcome !!!!! lol

28 May 2013

Quote by Max777
The lack of information about the death of Mohammed Saleem simply proves the point that a seemingly grotesque racist attack on an innocent 75 year I'd goes largely unreported albeit you can find details if you dig deep enough.
The reporting on the equally hideous death of Lee Rigby has opened wounds in the British psyche that have been closed for decades and the hysterical media coverage is creating division where there need not be division. These two murderers were demented criminals and not representative of the Muslim community. By focusing the nations attention on the racial and religious aspect of this crime we are at risk of alienating the vast majority of Muslims who are fully integrated into our society and who have contributed greatly to our society. We need mainstream Islam to fight radical Islam - attacking Islam generally will not help.

I didn't have to dig at all to find any details regarding the murder of Mohammed Saleem. It would appear that most mainstream newspapers reported it on their websites. I can't say whether it was reported in the actual newspapers as I don't read them.
Murders are an all too common occurrence, most of which do not receive national news coverage. The difference with the murder of Lee Rigby was that it was carried out in full public view, by people who claimed to have committed the murder for political reasons and who obviously wanted to attract as much publicity as possible.
I'm sure that had Mr Saleem been murdered in similar circumstances to Lee Rigby by two members of the EDL, the media coverage would have been just as extensive and and the focus would equally have been on the racial aspect of the crime.
Couple of excellent posts. Too Hot, of course the idea that Muslims or Islam are generally responsible for the murder is every bit as wrong-headed as blaming white christians for Anders Brevik running amok in Norway. Noone tries to blame an entire ethnic group or religion for that, it's nonsense. Lots of Muslim groups, mosques, whatever have spoken out against it, but why should they be expected to? Wasn't them killed Lee Rigby, they've got nothing to apologise for. Max, yes, the killers themselves made it clear the murder was politically motivated, done for effect. That makes it terrorism. Can't be anything but, the reporting was accurate. Mohammed Saleem's death might well be a hate crime, hate crimes are in my view mostly political themselves, they're ideologically driven, but the two murders aren't quite the same.
I'm concerned at the revitalisation of the EDL since Woolwich. EDL Leeds Division are planning a little get together in the city this coming Saturday, 1st June. Mainly involves them getting pissed to fuck at the train station pubs before staggering off chanting obscenities making nazi salutes and generally being offensive to all decent people to get to the Cenotaph at Leeds Art Gallery, where they will lay a wreath with a minute of swaying silence before carrying on again no doubt with the mindless chanting and nazi saluting. They seem to think that's honouring the war dead and being respectful, or something, I dunno? Will be out at the counter-demo, need as many out as poss to show just how laughable their claim to be somehow speaking on our behalves is, and demonstrating what solidarity looks like.
The EDL have been absolutely imploding in recent months, massive fallouts within the organisation, splinter groups forming that can't be doing with each other, bleeding what little support it had at a ferocious pace. Fast going the way of the BNP before them, soon to be an irrelevance. And then Woolwich. They've had big days in Newcastle and London on the back of it, it's given a boost to the commitment levels getting more EDLers out to them than would probably have been the case a fortnight ago. I don't think the numbers indicate any increase in support for them as yet, but it's important they're denied opportunities to exploit and capitalise on the Woolwich murder as much as possible. The EDL as an organisation, and their narrative have to be challenged.

28 May 2013

Seemingly much of the loss of support of EDL and BNP has been to the benefit of UKIP. The perception, rightly or wrongly, is that you can talk about immigration in the name of UKIP but talking about it in the name of the BNP and EDL makes you a Nazi.
The great irony of this is that the two murderers are British citizens.
You are right to go on your demo Neil and no one has the right to suggest that you are not every bit as outraged about the murder as the EDL just because you oppose them. Difference is that you have a sense of understanding and proportion that seems to be in short supply at the moment.

29 May 2013

personally Neil i think let the EDL demo scream obscenities and rant like they do till like the bnp they run out of steam.
this is a short lived episode for them and they will bask in the glory of thinking they where right and chants of we told you so will probably ring out over the next few months,
after that things will return to normal
the EDL will whitter away like all the fascist groups before them until another will replace them like the EDL replaced the bnp.
i must admit that it offends me the very same as it does you, but i wouldn't give them the pleasure of my attendance to an anti EDL rally, as i think that if they was ignored they would go away a lot quicker with out an audience than they would with one wink

29 May 2013

I have always voted for the same party all my voting life and i supose that if they said they would have a referendum about bringing back capitol punishment then i would mostl likely still vote for them.
However i would always vote NO to bringing back capitol punishment.

29 May 2013

Let us not forget that the Nazi party and Adolf Hitler achieved many of its/his goals by latching onto a situation.
He convinced the German people and others (Austrians etc) that their problems were basically down to the rise in wealth and power of the Jews, unlike some who committed gross atrocities against their own nations such as Pohl Pott, Stalin, Idi Amin and others.
I believe that in a misguided way the Governement here in the UK and in other Countries are laying the paving stones for a similar situation, all over Europe immigrants are being blamed for all the woes of the Nation, Greece is a prime example.
The average UK citizen is not racist, but we are being pushed towards racism, the average UK citizen would not mind legal immigrants if they were not all percieved to be milking the country dry, and many don't milk it.
When you hear stories of immigrants from eastern europe and africa being given more benefits, easier access to housing and all the rest of the freebies you will as a human being resent them.
Much of it is urban legend, hearsay and not true, but the media does highlight some scanadlous cases where immigrants are recieving unproportional amounts and the real racists use it to stir hatred just as Hitler did.
Acts of violence/terrorism by a minority of Muslims creates a disproportional amount of mistrust and hatred of all muslims.
The Government appear to appease immigrants, allowing them to fly their flags (as they should) whilst banning the British or English flag on public buildings (that they shouldn't ban), supermarkets penalise workers for wearing Help for Heroes bracelets, the government cowtow to Europe even when it is totally against our intersts as a nation and appear more willing to fund projects abroad than projects in the UK, they will throw billions into saving Syrians whilst our own National Health falls apart and our best hospital for children relies on charity, they will supply money for helicopters in Syria whilst our own needs for emergency helicopters and forces helicopters is in dire straits.
The Government are to blame for much of the Racism, aided by the media.

29 May 2013

this is how you deal with the EDL

i cant believe no one else spotted it :sad:

29 May 2013

Quote by Lizaleanrob
this is how you deal with the EDL

i cant believe no one else spotted it :sad:

They didn't spot it rob because it didn't suit their purpose to....

29 May 2013

Sometimes a picture really does speak a thousand words.....

30 May 2013

Speaking of a thousand words.....
Up 'til now I've sort of (dis)regarded Russell Brand as a bit of an air-head ;) but after reading I've had to reassess that less than subjective judgement.
He eloquently sums up a lot of what I'd struggle to express, especially around the knee-jerk reaction/retaliation that fuels much of the EDL's (and to some extent other political parties) popularity.
As he says, we should be looking to those in power to answer for these types of heinous crimes, and supporting those caught up in the events with kindness, understanding, and compassion.

30 May 2013

Quote by Lizaleanrob
this is how you deal with the EDL

i cant believe no one else spotted it :sad:

Was being shared widely on my Facebook on Tuesday that Rob. Think it great that members of the mosque engaged with them like that, but that only happened because so many turned out against them to defend it. Gestures like that are a whole lot easier when you outnumber the opposition 20 to 1, suspect it would have been a very different story if numbers were more even, or the EDL were in the majority. They must have shit themselves! smile

So yeah, counter-protests. Usually I'd probably agree with you that groups like these are best ignored altogether and left to wither away. They were in absolute terminal decline, the less committed were just drifting off but Woolwich has boosted their confidence, they're doing much better at getting activists and hangers on out this last week. Hundreds were meant to be going to the last Leeds demo according to the Facebook event page for it, they managed less than 150, we outnumbered them nearly 2 to 1. Newcastle and London this week they managed over 1000 at both. They can't be allowed to build on it. Counter protests are about ruining what they hope will be a fun day out, and making their attempt at a protest as pointless and as frustrating as possible, showing them up for what they are and achieving nothing because we know already that helps lose them the hangers on, the less committed types who'll not bother turning out for shit days out in future.

10 Jun 2013

Possibly an aside but can anyone name any terrorists who have quoted their religion as the reason for their actions rather than western foreign policy ?
It strikes me that rather than jumping to conclusions about radical religious belief we should start to address the reasons why people might become radicalised

22 Jun 2013

Quote by Geordiecpl2001
After the terrible attack in London I wonder if UKIP would / could / should promise a referendum on bringing back the death penalty for terrorism and killing of police officers ?
If they did I suspect it would push them even higher in the polls. Doubt Lib-dems or Labour could say they would do the same thing, but would the Tories have to follow suit to stay in the race ?
John

birmingham 6, guildford 4, stephan kizco............ they would all have been wrongly executed if capital punishment was available.
Have you seen the records in america where they habitually kill people that they subsequently find not to have been guilty?
Shame on you for suggesting this.

22 Jun 2013

Quote by capricornten
After the terrible attack in London I wonder if UKIP would / could / should promise a referendum on bringing back the death penalty for terrorism and killing of police officers ?
If they did I suspect it would push them even higher in the polls. Doubt Lib-dems or Labour could say they would do the same thing, but would the Tories have to follow suit to stay in the race ?
John

birmingham 6, guildford 4, stephan kizco............ they would all have been wrongly executed if capital punishment was available.
Have you seen the records in america where they habitually kill people that they subsequently find not to have been guilty?
Shame on you for suggesting this.
Shame on me for suggesting what ???
I ask if people would be more likely to vote for a particular party if they offered a REFERENDUM to the people of this Country as to if they should bring back capital punishment.
Nowhere did I predict what the outcome of the referendum would be.
Perhaps you should read the wording of the question before jumping to a conclusion.
I'm sure if I'd asked the question, "Should the police drive red or blue cars?" You'd have said "They must drive Fords"
John

24 Jun 2013

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Possibly an aside but can anyone name any terrorists who have quoted their religion as the reason for their actions rather than western foreign policy ?
It strikes me that rather than jumping to conclusions about radical religious belief we should start to address the reasons why people might become radicalised

Definetely an "aside" I think.
Whislt I do not believe that all terrorism or violence of this nature has religious groundings, there is no doubt that secretarian violence exists and to deny it is naive to say the least.
Take the situation in Northern Ireland, yes the IRA came about because they did not like the British presence and influence in Ireland but religion became a tool, a weapon and a reason for some of the violence there.
No Protestant would feel safe or would be safe announcing his religion in the Creggan, Turf Lodge, Falls or Bogside, no Catholic would feel safe announcing his religion in the waterside etc.
Violence would have been inflicted soley on the persons religion not on their reason for being there, their nationality or colour.
Their religious beliefs may not have been the reason for the conflict but it certainly came into it.
Many Muslim terrorists quote the will of allah as a reason for violence whilst more Muslims quote allah as a reason for peace.
Religion in the past has divided armies and peoples bringing them into conflict, check out the targets of the crusades for example.
Religion has divided Nations, United nations and brought Nations into conflict with other nations, how often did religion come into the equation of our wars with Spain and France ? they may often be used as labels or excuses by the powers that be but many of those that fought believed they were doing so for religious reasons and not the greed of governments, rulers and politictians.

24 Jun 2013

Then I suddenly remembered why I am a 100% Atheist.

24 Jun 2013

Quote by MidsCouple24
Possibly an aside but can anyone name any terrorists who have quoted their religion as the reason for their actions rather than western foreign policy ?
It strikes me that rather than jumping to conclusions about radical religious belief we should start to address the reasons why people might become radicalised

Definetely an "aside" I think.
Whislt I do not believe that all terrorism or violence of this nature has religious groundings, there is no doubt that secretarian violence exists and to deny it is naive to say the least.
Take the situation in Northern Ireland, yes the IRA came about because they did not like the British presence and influence in Ireland but religion became a tool, a weapon and a reason for some of the violence there.
No Protestant would feel safe or would be safe announcing his religion in the Creggan, Turf Lodge, Falls or Bogside, no Catholic would feel safe announcing his religion in the waterside etc.
Violence would have been inflicted soley on the persons religion not on their reason for being there, their nationality or colour.
Their religious beliefs may not have been the reason for the conflict but it certainly came into it.
Many Muslim terrorists quote the will of allah as a reason for violence whilst more Muslims quote allah as a reason for peace.
Religion in the past has divided armies and peoples bringing them into conflict, check out the targets of the crusades for example.
Religion has divided Nations, United nations and brought Nations into conflict with other nations, how often did religion come into the equation of our wars with Spain and France ? they may often be used as labels or excuses by the powers that be but many of those that fought believed they were doing so for religious reasons and not the greed of governments, rulers and politictians.
The thing is that non of the examples you give answer the question ..... the I.R.A. had political not religious motives, that crossed the sectarian divide , search David Russell for example
I used to work with an old bloke from Glasgow who spent his youth having to answer whether he was a 'billy' or a 'dan'....the people asking him were not terrorists
Yes there is the question of Jihad in the world of muslim terrorists BUT I don't know of an example where this is qouted as the reason for any act, messages left and questioning of terrorists as far as I'm aware state quite specific political reasons and aims for their actions
To write off the many many 'terrorist' groups around the world as religious fanatics whose aim is to reach paradise is a cop out .It fails to address and avoids the very real issues that are being protested, so why are these muslims being radicalised ? Do you really think the promise of martydom is enough? I know it wouldn't be for me.
P.S. I know I said it was an aside but I think he issue of religious radicalisation was mentioned earlier in the thread ... I was just bringing it back round. (in edit ... My bad it must have been elsewhere,nevertheless it's here now

24 Jun 2013

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Possibly an aside but can anyone name any terrorists who have quoted their religion as the reason for their actions rather than western foreign policy ?
It strikes me that rather than jumping to conclusions about radical religious belief we should start to address the reasons why people might become radicalised

Definetely an "aside" I think.
Whislt I do not believe that all terrorism or violence of this nature has religious groundings, there is no doubt that secretarian violence exists and to deny it is naive to say the least.
Take the situation in Northern Ireland, yes the IRA came about because they did not like the British presence and influence in Ireland but religion became a tool, a weapon and a reason for some of the violence there.
No Protestant would feel safe or would be safe announcing his religion in the Creggan, Turf Lodge, Falls or Bogside, no Catholic would feel safe announcing his religion in the waterside etc.
Violence would have been inflicted soley on the persons religion not on their reason for being there, their nationality or colour.
Their religious beliefs may not have been the reason for the conflict but it certainly came into it.
Many Muslim terrorists quote the will of allah as a reason for violence whilst more Muslims quote allah as a reason for peace.
Religion in the past has divided armies and peoples bringing them into conflict, check out the targets of the crusades for example.
Religion has divided Nations, United nations and brought Nations into conflict with other nations, how often did religion come into the equation of our wars with Spain and France ? they may often be used as labels or excuses by the powers that be but many of those that fought believed they were doing so for religious reasons and not the greed of governments, rulers and politictians.
The thing is that non of the examples you give answer the question ..... the I.R.A. had political not religious motives, that crossed the sectarian divide , search David Russell for example
I don't need to read what Russell David has to say, I have worked and lived in NI for many years, my eldest daughter was born there, I have seen good and bad and experiencedn secretarian violence and political violence at first hand. the first thing I said was that the Irish conflict was a political one which because of the situation there resulted in many religious confrontations as well as the political ones. The two have become entwined and people use both as ammunition.
I used to work with an old bloke from Glasgow who spent his youth having to answer whether he was a 'billy' or a 'dan'....the people asking him were not terrorists
On my first day living in Scotland I was called a "left footer" because in the showers I was wearing a cross, when I got to the bottom of what was meant I found I was labelled as a Catholic because of the cross, and abused accordingly by the Protestant person, when I said I was Church of England he could not get his head round the fact that I wore the cross as decoration, it had been a present from my girlfriend and not a symbol of my personal religious beliefs.
Yes there is the question of Jihad in the world of muslim terrorists BUT I don't know of an example where this is qouted as the reason for any act, messages left and questioning of terrorists as far as I'm aware state quite specific political reasons and aims for their actions
You cannot fight a jihad (struggle) without the religious connontations, the word means struggle and is Religious duty of Muslims. Now I am not saying all Muslims fighting for what they believe in are doing it in the name of Religion, some fight because they believe that their way of following their Religion is the right way as with many religions, the Church of England has factions that follow similar beliefs to CofE with some quite hardline alternatives such as Jehovahs Witnesses, There are Jews and Orthadox Jews etc. Some fight because they believe occupying forces have invaded their land, some believe the occupying forces are there to free them from tyranny and fight the fundamentalists. There are many reasons why people fight, religion can be one of them it can also be a label for a group of fighters and it can also be used as an excuse for greed and power seeking was what I said.
To write off the many many 'terrorist' groups around the world as religious fanatics whose aim is to reach paradise is a cop out .It fails to address and avoids the very real issues that are being protested, so why are these muslims being radicalised ? Do you really think the promise of martydom is enough? I know it wouldn't be for me.
I personally don't write off any terrorist group as religious fantatics, there are many such groups with no religious affiliations, such as Bader Meinhof, Red Hand etc, who had purely political motives and did not care much for any Religion. i have worked in Africa where it was tribal not religious conflict, it was about greed and power and it was a desire for tribal cleansing not ethnic cleansing.
P.S. I know I said it was an aside but I think he issue of religious radicalisation was mentioned earlier in the thread ... I was just bringing it back round. (in edit ... My bad it must have been elsewhere,nevertheless it's here now
Understand that but I don't think you can ignore the Religious side of the discussion because it may not be the big issue, it might only be occasionally relevant but relevan it is.

24 Jun 2013

And why do these people become radicalised ?What leaves them believing the only answer is to strap on a bomb.... I don't know if you're missing the point or choosing not to address it ....We are repeatedly told by government and media that these people are religious fanatics that their religion is why they act as they do ... We are rarely if ever informed of any political motive , it is never mentioned that there may well be a reason why the Muslim east may feel threatened by us...I mean we've never prosecuted any illegal wars against them for the most tenuous or even fabricated reasons have we

25 Jun 2013

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
And why do these people become radicalised ?What leaves them believing the only answer is to strap on a bomb.... I don't,t know if you're missing the point or choosing not to address it ....We are repeatedly told by government and media that these people are religious fanatics that their religion is why they act as they do ... We are rarely if ever informed of any political motive , it is never mentioned that there may well be a reason why the Muslim east may feel threatened by us...I mean we,be never prosecuted any illegal wars against them for the most tenuous or even fabricated reasons have we

We are easily fooled into believing that this is all the fault of the Western Crusaders. However, let us not forget that Muslim v Muslim atrocities are far more common than attacks on innocent Christians. The Iran / Iraq war 35 years ago was one of the most gruesome in modern history and Iraq today suffers wave after wave of car bombings, kidnappings and murder by Muslim against Muslim.