Crime and punishment

21 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
I wonder how many people feel too intimidated to post oppositional views on this thread?

About the same ammount of people who will not post on my thread regarding the 13 year old Keeno.
I would also like to know how you would deal with kids who have done this? You said we all had a " knee jerk " attitude, so the question was very valid... What would you do? But then again you said you would act differently if it WAS your Grandad.
Surely everyone deserves the same?
The softly softly approach that the liberals have adopted over the last 10 years clearly has not worked, so in my view with scum bags like this surely stiff penalties should be imposed?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
I wonder how many people feel too intimidated to post oppositional views on this thread?

About the same ammount of people who will not post on my thread regarding the 13 year old Keeno.
I would also like to know how you would deal with kids who have done this? You said we all had a " knee jerk " attitude, so the question was very valid... What would you do? But then again you said you would act differently if it WAS your Grandad.
Surely everyone deserves the same?
The softly softly approach that the liberals have adopted over the last 10 years clearly has not worked, so in my view with scum bags like this surely stiff penalties should be imposed?
Surely the last person hung in Britain was over 10 years ago, I'm sure I would have remembered it.
Surely the last person flogged in Britain was over 10 years ago, I'm sure I would have remembered it.
By your arguements and views it would seem the moral degeneration of society has been happening for decades.

21 Oct 2008

Surely everyone deserves the same?
quote]
The sad truth about human rights is the only qualification you need is to be human. Sure, you do wonder about with shitbags like this but as you say Kent........ everyone deserves the same?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
My opinions on how these people are to be punished is not the subject of the discussion.
Question.
Are you prepared to flog these people yourself or would you pay someone else 30 pieces of silver to do it for you?

Your opinions on punishment are up for debate as you have questioned my answer to punishment. Thus bringing yourself into the punishment debate. I have a right to ask in my opinion as you have the same right to say I am wrong in my thinking.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
I wonder how many people feel too intimidated to post oppositional views on this thread?

About the same ammount of people who will not post on my thread regarding the 13 year old Keeno.
I would also like to know how you would deal with kids who have done this? You said we all had a " knee jerk " attitude, so the question was very valid... What would you do? But then again you said you would act differently if it WAS your Grandad.
Surely everyone deserves the same?
The softly softly approach that the liberals have adopted over the last 10 years clearly has not worked, so in my view with scum bags like this surely stiff penalties should be imposed?
Surely the last person hung in Britain was over 10 years ago, I'm sure I would have remembered it.
Surely the last person flogged in Britain was over 10 years ago, I'm sure I would have remembered it.
By your arguements and views it would seem the moral degeneration of society has been happening for decades.
The last people to hang in the UK were Peter Anthony Allen and Gwynne Owen Evans on the 13th August 1964, the last flogging I would have no idea.
Society has always had bad people Keeno BUT it has got worse, much worse over the last 15 years. When was the last person shot by another gang member, before 1995? If there was one I doubt it, but now it is common place. Is it pure coincidence that there have been what, 20+ youngsters knifed or shot on our streets this year? JUST this year. Unprecedented on our streets.
We have said how we would deal with these but you have still not answered our question as to how you would? Not being arguementative Keeno, just that you have picked faults as to how we would deal with this issue, and we have only asked what your answer would be.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Theladyisaminx
My opinions on how these people are to be punished is not the subject of the discussion.
Question.
Are you prepared to flog these people yourself or would you pay someone else 30 pieces of silver to do it for you?

Your opinions on punishment are up for debate as you have questioned my answer to punishment. Thus bringing yourself into the punishment debate. I have a right to ask in my opinion as you have the same right to say I am wrong in my thinking.
I am generally happy with the sentances meted out by the courts of this land.
I do not believe that violence gegets anything other than violence.
I do not believe tough sentancing or punishment act as a deterant since I believe that crimes are carried out by people who don't believe they are going to get caught.

21 Oct 2008

Fair enough Keeno. BTW Mrs777 says ya chest needs a shave. lol

21 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
I wonder how many people feel too intimidated to post oppositional views on this thread?

You as well as anyone else entitled to your views and opinions.
To debate takes two side, without which we can’t debate as then we would all agree.
I am just coming back with a counter debating points, as I don’t know what you think thus not being able to debate further.
That we agree or disagree to me is irrelevant we can at a point beg to differ.
Hopefully what we are debating here is the form of punishment as that is why you entered this debate as you stated you disagree with what I said. Hopefully we both agree this was a vile act.
If it was on punishment I have stated my stance here but as yet you haven’t said how you would treat such criminals.
As you stated prisons are full. We all know prison doesn’t seem a deterrent.
You are right in places where corporal of capital punishment is given out, there are still crimes that warrant such punishment.
But I do wonder if such levels would rise if these punishments were abolished.
When this country done away with such punishments the levels of such crimes rose to what we have today.
So all I would say if crimes have risen, so has innocent victims that are being affected.
Isn’t it about time we started thinking about the victims rights first?
It is a sad state of affairs that on asking my son about crime he expects to get mugged in his life.
Doesn't this say we all live in fear of crime?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by GnV
So we should just tell the poor old guy that got beaten up that we're not going to punish the poor misguided youths that did this if they are caught as its the fault of society for not giving them a playground when they were younger
That should do the trick yes....

Yup, that's about it Steve..
The Liberals will all be for getting the likkle gobshites in to the same room as the victim so they can "unburden" themselves so they will become better people.
Ooooo, I must be a liberal - bugga!! lol

I actually believe that for some young people it can work - see it done and used the process myself!
I think it depends on the crime though - hurting someone is a different kettle of fish than smashing a shop window or whatever.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by anais
So we should just tell the poor old guy that got beaten up that we're not going to punish the poor misguided youths that did this if they are caught as its the fault of society for not giving them a playground when they were younger
That should do the trick yes....

Yup, that's about it Steve..
The Liberals will all be for getting the likkle gobshites in to the same room as the victim so they can "unburden" themselves so they will become better people.
Ooooo, I must be a liberal - bugga!! lol

I actually believe that for some young people it can work - see it done and used the process myself!
I think it depends on the crime though - hurting someone is a different kettle of fish than smashing a shop window or whatever.
Of course it can work for some Anais but... what about people who beat up and kick the hell out of a poor 92 year old man? Oh to be a judge for a day. lol

21 Oct 2008

Quote by keeno
My opinions on how these people are to be punished is not the subject of the discussion.
Question.
Are you prepared to flog these people yourself or would you pay someone else 30 pieces of silver to do it for you?

Your opinions on punishment are up for debate as you have questioned my answer to punishment. Thus bringing yourself into the punishment debate. I have a right to ask in my opinion as you have the same right to say I am wrong in my thinking.
I am generally happy with the sentances meted out by the courts of this land.
I do not believe that violence gegets anything other than violence.
I do not believe tough sentancing or punishment act as a deterant since I believe that crimes are carried out by people who don't believe they are going to get caught.
Keeno you know I am not digging you out here but you are the only one up for this counter debate and I respect you for that, we have pm-ed each other to say so to.
But I have to disagree with this statement as so many offenders reoffend doesn’t that contradict your statement. If they thought they wouldn’t get caught.
Why do it again and not have learnt from their first lesson?
I think because the deterrent isn’t good enough.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by anais
So we should just tell the poor old guy that got beaten up that we're not going to punish the poor misguided youths that did this if they are caught as its the fault of society for not giving them a playground when they were younger
That should do the trick yes....

Yup, that's about it Steve..
The Liberals will all be for getting the likkle gobshites in to the same room as the victim so they can "unburden" themselves so they will become better people.
Ooooo, I must be a liberal - bugga!! lol

I actually believe that for some young people it can work - see it done and used the process myself!
I think it depends on the crime though - hurting someone is a different kettle of fish than smashing a shop window or whatever.
I believe it can work on children.
So Anais I must be a mixed up liberal. lol

as:
I don't think at the age of 20+ there is much anyone can do then. I might be wrong.
What happens then?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Theladyisaminx
So we should just tell the poor old guy that got beaten up that we're not going to punish the poor misguided youths that did this if they are caught as its the fault of society for not giving them a playground when they were younger
That should do the trick yes....

Yup, that's about it Steve..
The Liberals will all be for getting the likkle gobshites in to the same room as the victim so they can "unburden" themselves so they will become better people.
Ooooo, I must be a liberal - bugga!! lol

I actually believe that for some young people it can work - see it done and used the process myself!
I think it depends on the crime though - hurting someone is a different kettle of fish than smashing a shop window or whatever.
I believe it can work on children.
So Anais I must be a mixed up liberal. lol

as:
I don't think at the age of 20+ there is much anyone can do then. I might be wrong.
What happens then?
It can work up to the age of 16 yrs old (sometimes 18 - depends on the crime). In this instance - they deserve a more just punishment and if and when they are caught no matter how old - I would hope that they receive one.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Fair enough Keeno. BTW Mrs777 says ya chest needs a shave.

:kick: no it doesn't! I love Keeno's chest!

21 Oct 2008

Unfortunately these yobs have been created by a breakdown in society that has it roots a lot further back than 15 years.
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?
Perpetrators of crimes will not be thinking about punishment as much as they are not thinking about their victims.
What i am disappointed with is the second part of "New" Labour`s pledge .... "tough on the causes of crime ... not the first part ... "tough on crime"
I'd much rather see the root problems being dealt with than this reaction to what in effect we have created ... a society where respect and thoughts for others have diminished.
Can it be done and how can it be done ... im not so sure, it may be too late :-(

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head
Unfortunately these yobs have been created by a breakdown in society that has it roots a lot further back than 15 years.
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?
Perpetrators of crimes will not be thinking about punishment as much as they are not thinking about their victims.
What i am disappointed with is the second part of "New" Labour`s pledge .... "tough on the causes of crime ... not the first part ... "tough on crime"
I'd much rather see the root problems being dealt with than this reaction to what in effect we have created ... a society where respect and thoughts for others have diminished.
Can it be done and how can it be done ... im not so sure, it may be too late :-(

Sorry but are you saying a judge that will dish out the punishment, is as bad as the thugs that have done the crime? Sorry that is how it reads to me.
Sorry but it all starts with the parents from an early age. If there are no parental boundaries at home, then there are none out of it. If there is no respect for their parents, they will have no respect for others so....it has to start at grass root levels, the parenting stage. That is where I am worried though, as a small percentage of parents are nothing more than ferel thugs themselves, with neither boundaries or respect, and that is passed on to their kids.
Correct punishments are a must to make people realise it will not be tolerated, not an I Pod for good behaviour, as some schools are doing.
In all seriousness I am not advocating the birch, just a sentence that reflects the crime. If these scumbags are caught then 5 years minimum should be given. I not for a second think that is too harsh a sentence under these circumstances.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
Sorry but it all starts with the parents from an early age. If there are no parental boundaries at home, then there are none out of it. If there is no respect for their parents, they will have no respect for others so....it has to start at grass root levels, the parenting stage. That is where I am worried though, as a small percentage of parents are nothing more than ferel thugs themselves, with neither boundaries or respect, and that is passed on to their kids.

I do agree that there are parents who don't give a damn, you state this as a small number, and that implies that the rest come from families where parents do care and may have other children that aren't wayward.
How do you explain parents who have numerous children and only one turns out wayward?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?

The thread suggests bringing back some kind of corporal punishment ... i agree sentences should match the crime but not corporal punishment ... violence to punish violence can't be right can it ?

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head

I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?

The thread suggests bringing back some kind of corporal punishment ... i agree sentences should match the crime but not corporal punishment ... violence to punish violence can't be right can it ?
Sorry suede did not see that bit in your reply. My appologies.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Calista

Sorry but it all starts with the parents from an early age. If there are no parental boundaries at home, then there are none out of it. If there is no respect for their parents, they will have no respect for others so....it has to start at grass root levels, the parenting stage. That is where I am worried though, as a small percentage of parents are nothing more than ferel thugs themselves, with neither boundaries or respect, and that is passed on to their kids.

I do agree that there are parents who don't give a damn, you state this as a small number, and that implies that the rest come from families where parents do care and may have other children that aren't wayward.
How do you explain parents who have numerous children and only one turns out wayward?
I do not profess to know all the answers, I wish I did. That question I do not know, maybe it is another child that is out of control they are " hanging around " with. dunno

What I do know is a lot of kids have learnt no respect from their parents, and that surely does not help. In my day you used to be scared silly by a copper but nowadays they hold no fear at all. That is another major problem.
Giving people 6 months in prison for a serious crime is no deterent, a much harsher sentence is what is needed. The softly softly approach is not working, so time for another approach maybe?

21 Oct 2008

The approach i'd like to see is the building up of communities again and with that would come the respect. Where i lived as a child i could tell you the name of everyone who lived in my estate ... now when i go back everyone is busy with their own lives.
There is no local shop, no local "characters" who would be role models to those who maybe didn't have the parental guidance others were blessed with.
No amount of punishment will install the feeling of what is right and wrong that has been lost in times gone by.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head
The approach i'd like to see is the building up of communities again and with that would come the respect. Where i lived as a child i could tell you the name of everyone who lived in my estate ... now when i go back everyone is busy with their own lives.
There is no local shop, no local "characters" who would be role models to those who maybe didn't have the parental guidance others were blessed with.
No amount of punishment will install the feeling of what is right and wrong that has been lost in times gone by.

Last week I was listening to a radio programme coming from Cyprus. The family over there always comes first, and all the families set firm boundaries.
The crime rate is very low and families spend time together, at least once a week all the family gather together. Your right people have no time for anyone now as they used too.
Up North there is more of a togetherness than down south, but yes I do not even know my neighbours 3 doors down.

21 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head
Unfortunately these yobs have been created by a breakdown in society that has it roots a lot further back than 15 years.
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?
Perpetrators of crimes will not be thinking about punishment as much as they are not thinking about their victims.
What i am disappointed with is the second part of "New" Labour`s pledge .... "tough on the causes of crime ... not the first part ... "tough on crime"
I'd much rather see the root problems being dealt with than this reaction to what in effect we have created ... a society where respect and thoughts for others have diminished.
Can it be done and how can it be done ... im not so sure, it may be too late :-(

Thank you for your post Suede, you are right on one aspect, nothing is a deterrent these days. Well we've had a few against the new way of punishment and a few for, one thing's for certain - my original question remains the same, when will it all end??
By the way, does anyone remember Borstal?? would that work again? (actually why did it stop in the first place?)

21 Oct 2008

Quote by jaymar
Unfortunately these yobs have been created by a breakdown in society that has it roots a lot further back than 15 years.
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?
Perpetrators of crimes will not be thinking about punishment as much as they are not thinking about their victims.
What i am disappointed with is the second part of "New" Labour`s pledge .... "tough on the causes of crime ... not the first part ... "tough on crime"
I'd much rather see the root problems being dealt with than this reaction to what in effect we have created ... a society where respect and thoughts for others have diminished.
Can it be done and how can it be done ... im not so sure, it may be too late :-(

Thank you for your post Suede, you are right on one aspect, nothing is a deterrent these days. Well we've had a few against the new way of punishment and a few for, one thing's for certain - my original question remains the same, when will it all end??
By the way, does anyone remember Borstal?? would that work again? (actually why did it stop in the first place?)
Probably because it infringed their new human rights dunno

?

22 Oct 2008

Same old same old, is anyone really suprised it has happened again.
I will bet my bollocks that they all have previous convictions and get away with it.

22 Oct 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
The approach i'd like to see is the building up of communities again and with that would come the respect. Where i lived as a child i could tell you the name of everyone who lived in my estate ... now when i go back everyone is busy with their own lives.
There is no local shop, no local "characters" who would be role models to those who maybe didn't have the parental guidance others were blessed with.
No amount of punishment will install the feeling of what is right and wrong that has been lost in times gone by.

Last week I was listening to a radio programme coming from Cyprus. The family over there always comes first, and all the families set firm boundaries.
The crime rate is very low and families spend time together, at least once a week all the family gather together. Your right people have no time for anyone now as they used too.
Up North there is more of a togetherness than down south, but yes I do not even know my neighbours 3 doors down.
How to build up communities?
Ban the car. Simple.
Make everyone live within walking distance of work. Do not let the poor oiks go to university then they would not get qualified and want to improve their lives.
In short, when things improve there is always a pay off on another level. My best mate still has a life from the sixties. He lives on the same road as his parents, his brother and sister live within walking distance as well. They continually meet up on a daily/weekly basis and have a family get together. In contrast, at one point my brother was in the midlands, my sister was in London, my mother was in Wales and I was in Germany. Basically spread to the four winds. Met up once a year for family get togethers or twice if there was a funeral or wedding lol

None of my best mates family nor any of my family have ended up in prison or got into trouble. The only difference is that my family all gained an education and have more than my best mates family. Materialistic? Yep but that is what capitalism teaches us.
So by comparing the past, people would want to have what they had in the past. People are not like that. We want to better ourselves, for ourselves and family.
Dave_Notts

22 Oct 2008

My last post on the subject but I will continue to read the thread with interest.
One question.
What are you going to do about it? Will you:
Write to the papers demanding stiffer sentances?
Write to your MP demanding action?
Do nothing at all but sound off in here?
If you are a responsible member of Society you should act on any strongly held beliefs. If you don't you are as bad or even worse than the bleeding heart liberals you have slagged off here.

22 Oct 2008

ok excuse my ramblings ....
the act of a physical violence towards any body or animal makes me feel sick/anger/sad/frustrated/dispair
the criminal systemn is a arse. ive seen people i know are guilty get off, and people who were innocent set up.
ive seen people who are guilty not even get to court, its cautions, or cps dont go forward, or not caught or not enough evidence.
those who do go to court get pathetic sentances.
the answer ?? i dunno les start with tougher sentances.
i feel the situation we are now in has been a snowball effect.
ok here goes.... i blame the benefit system.
ffs ill place my disclaimer now... not all ppl on benefit are like this ok.
i have a huge issue with benefit being far to easy,
i actually think it should be a safety net, not a cuddle blanket.
benefit should be issued as tokens, vouchers for food, set amount for the electric, gas and none to be spent of alcohol or fags or bad food. if you dont like the shame of that then get a job.
and even the vouchers should be for a limited time.
i know some people are loan parents, fair enough but i think there should be a contract to getting the benefit, i know some loan parents are doing good jobs at teaching the kids to be respectfull etc, but a vast majority dont, they should be made to engage in childrens centres and those who are good parents wont have a issue with this anyway.
single people on benefit not really ill.. same deal get out and do vlo work, at day centres etc attend job clubs,
far to many ppl sat on their arses not having any respect for those who work their arses off, they say thats not my fault, they shouldnt be so stupid.!
ok they only take what the government give, so stop fecking giving with out conditions.
if people worked they would have less time to be twats, more respect and feel they are contributing to a society therofore have a vested intrest in society.
like share holders.
xx fem xx

22 Oct 2008

I thought I was right wing. lol

So on that basis fem, I have to agree with a lot of your comments. We DO have a benefits culture going on here, but way too complex a mess for anyone to sort out.

22 Oct 2008

Quote by Suede-head
Unfortunately these yobs have been created by a breakdown in society that has it roots a lot further back than 15 years.
I can not see any form of corporal punishment as being anything other than revenge and agree with Keeno that punishment however extreme will not act as a deterrent. It may make us feel better for a while ... but in the long run are those who dish out punishment as bad as the original perpetrators ? I can see why some can say they deserve it but does it make it right ?
Perpetrators of crimes will not be thinking about punishment as much as they are not thinking about their victims.
What i am disappointed with is the second part of "New" Labour`s pledge .... "tough on the causes of crime ... not the first part ... "tough on crime"
I'd much rather see the root problems being dealt with than this reaction to what in effect we have created ... a society where respect and thoughts for others have diminished.
Can it be done and how can it be done ... im not so sure, it may be too late :-(

Suede you are right a flogging is a short term answer for a long term problem.
Unless we go right back to the grass roots I believe it is never going to be resolved.
You talk total sense in your post.
I was just opening up a debate by throwing in the flogging. it is how I felt yesterday after reading that story. I don't think differently today, just my reaction might be different. So it always best to debate with a clear mind.
What I can see are some of the causes for crime and general attuidute are below.
Self belief
Respect for themselves and others
Deprivation
Education
Future prospects
Self belief
Parenting
Schooling
Social climate
Community spirit
Media
All have a part to play in my opinion