The more I read about this alternative way, it rings a bell from ages past on a post by Foxy (I think).
One of these alternatives was the LETTs system of, basically, bartering. This is one of the alternatives you are thinking about to get us out of the financial crisis? This is something that works well in small communities and has been working well for years. But can it really work in the wider world?
Dave_Notts
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Fixing The Irish Problem
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Quote by Dave__Notts
So the facts are you cannot or will not prove your own points
Great debate :thumbup:
Now even I managed to find something that you were alluding to when asked to look at money as debt. It's a short film isn't it? By a Canadian artist who said on his own website when flaws were pointed out in the movie:
When I made Money as Debt I had the assistance of 4 consultants who all had much more experience and knowledge of the money system than I did. Two of them were the source of this idea. None of them flagged this point as a problem. However, it has been one of two main criticisms of my movie and in the revised edition will be replaced with less contentious information. Unfortunately, if this information is actually misleading, it is rather late to correct it given that millions have already viewed the movie.
So he has made a mistake, blamed it on the "consultants", and since millions have seen it, it is too late to change. Please tell me this is not your evidence?
Dave_Nottsdave, no, this is not my evidence and i'm not sure if the film you have watched is what i referred to. all the evidence you need is what is happening at an accelerating rate all around you. how many trillions of credits (in whatever currency denomination)exist in the world today, how many were there years ago and if there are more now, where did they come from and who created them ?
Quote by gulsonroad30664
join with me to identify it and come up with solutions.
I thought you said
Quote by gulsonroad30664
when people ask for solutions, i say it's not for me to lead you but for you to be enpowered with the knowledge to lead yourself. solutions come from knowledge not ignorance.
So which is it? Join with you to come up with solutions or not to lead.........you should make your mind up Guls
Dave_Notts
Quote by gulsonroad30664
dave, no, this is not my evidence and i'm not sure if the film you have watched is what i referred to. all the evidence you need is what is happening at an accelerating rate all around you. how many trillions of credits (in whatever currency denomination)exist in the world today, how many were there years ago and if there are more now, where did they come from and who created them ?
This is now getting interesting. So you gave me the keywords to search, I find the exact same things that you are talking about and then you tell me that it wasn't what you were on about?
Come now Guls, I have tried to play your game but you do need to be more helpful with your evidence if I have to find it for you.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
join with me to identify it and come up with solutions.
I thought you said
Quote by gulsonroad30664
when people ask for solutions, i say it's not for me to lead you but for you to be enpowered with the knowledge to lead yourself. solutions come from knowledge not ignorance.
So which is it? Join with you to come up with solutions or not to lead.........you should make your mind up Guls
Dave_Nottsbefore you can come up with solutions, you have to first understand the problem you are trying to solve. understanding as much as you possibly can by debate and constant analysis brings you closer to the total of the reality that you are trying to comprehend in its totality. i do not profess to know all of the issue but am constantly persueing and analysing as much data and information as i can, filtering bullshit and spin that is constantly thrown around to disguise the depth of the crisis.
hope you and max are with me and not against.
Quote by gulsonroad30664
before you can come up with solutions, you have to first understand the problem you are trying to solve. understanding as much as you possibly can by debate and constant analysis brings you closer to the total of the reality that you are trying to comprehend in its totality.
Agreed, but I have no idea who to believe on this issue as the mainstream and the heterodox economic and libertarian groups cannot agree among themselves about anything. So this to me looks very similar to religion, as you have to have faith in your own side that you believe in. This could be why you do not produce the "evidence" I so crave for my understanding as it is your blind faith in your groups idea what is right.
i do not profess to know all of the issue but am constantly persueing and analysing as much data and information as i can,
Thank you, so it is a blind faith in a certain type of economics that you have, as you do not have the answers
filtering bullshit and spin that is constantly thrown around to disguise the depth of the crisis.
There is always spin by politicians and newspapers. However, at least their spin is laid out before us and we can look at it all and make a decision on what we see and read. You have never allowed me to see what evidnce you have. Don't ask me a question. Tell me what the answer is and how you came about that answer and link it to proof. Then you will have me agreeing with you wholeheartedly.
hope you and max are with me and not against.
I can never speak for Max as he is an individual. I am not against you, I just cannot understand what the hell you are talking about. This is putting my heart on my sleeve for you.........you have me confused and frustrated in your riddles that make no sense to me
Quote by Dave__Nottsit does make sense to you.
before you can come up with solutions, you have to first understand the problem you are trying to solve. understanding as much as you possibly can by debate and constant analysis brings you closer to the total of the reality that you are trying to comprehend in its totality.
Agreed, but I have no idea who to believe on this issue as the mainstream and the heterodox economic and libertarian groups cannot agree among themselves about anything. So this to me looks very similar to religion, as you have to have faith in your own side that you believe in. This could be why you do not produce the "evidence" I so crave for my understanding as it is your blind faith in your groups idea what is right.
i do not profess to know all of the issue but am constantly persueing and analysing as much data and information as i can,
Thank you, so it is a blind faith in a certain type of economics that you have, as you do not have the answers
filtering bullshit and spin that is constantly thrown around to disguise the depth of the crisis.
There is always spin by politicians and newspapers. However, at least their spin is laid out before us and we can look at it all and make a decision on what we see and read. You have never allowed me to see what evidnce you have. Don't ask me a question. Tell me what the answer is and how you came about that answer and link it to proof. Then you will have me agreeing with you wholeheartedly.
hope you and max are with me and not against.
I can never speak for Max as he is an individual. I am not against you, I just cannot understand what the hell you are talking about. This is putting my heart on my sleeve for you.........you have me confused and frustrated in your riddles that make no sense to me
i have a faith in the fact that there is a worldwide financial crisis ? no. there is a worldwide financial crisis and it is getting worse by the day. absolute fact, independent of my conscietousness or existance. it is. absolute. faith or a belief is not knowledge. faith is not objective. if i ask you to have faith or just go along with me, believe something you dont understand just temporarily while i explain, that is faith. when i have explained and you understand, you no longer have faith you have knowledge.
newspapers and politicians lay things out so you can decide for yourself. no they dont, they create falsehoods constantly backed up by lies and deceptions and many, but less as time goes by, believe them.
my evidence exists all around you. look at my first posts on this issue and the date. i have not waivered from day one. the process has continued exactly as i said. where did i get such premises ? blind faith or knowledge ? thank you for your interest. regards dave
Quote by gulsonroad30664
join with me to identify it and come up with solutions.
I thought you said
Quote by gulsonroad30664
when people ask for solutions, i say it's not for me to lead you but for you to be enpowered with the knowledge to lead yourself. solutions come from knowledge not ignorance.
So which is it? Join with you to come up with solutions or not to lead.........you should make your mind up Guls
Dave_Nottsbefore you can come up with solutions, you have to first understand the problemyou are trying to solve. understanding as much as you possibly can by debate and constant analysis brings you closer to the total of the reality that you are trying to comprehend in its totality. i do not profess to know all of the issue but am constantly persueing and analysing as much data and information as i can, filtering bullshit and spin that is constantly thrown around to disguise the depth of the crisis.
hope you and max are with me and not against.
The problem is though Gulson, is that you do NOT understand the problem. The central plank to your argument is that the Bank of England, along with all other central banks, is a private bank and lends to the government at interest and that the whole world is indebted to a cartel of bankers and due to the interest they charge, the debts can never be repaid as there is not enough money in the world.
Unfortunately that is bollox!
There is no doubt that there is a monetary crisis within the banking system but it was caused by the deregulation of the banks effectively allowing them to become gamblers and the results of their (bad) gambling leading to the banks becoming massively under capitalised. The current situation is exacerbated by the previous governments profligate spending resulting in huge levels of government debt.
You ask for debate and I'm quite happy to debate but it is a pointless exercise when the central
plank of your argument is patently incorrect. You have said you can prove everything you say, then spend hours doing everything to avoid having to provide proof.
To me, you are talking bollox, along with your other conspiracy theories, such as 9/11 being an inside job, there being non existant bombers re 7/7 ( try telling that to the survivors and victims relatives currently attending the inquests), Al Qaeda not existing etc etc.
I'm not going to play your game any longer but hey, keep ranting, you have your desciples.
Quote by Max777
join with me to identify it and come up with solutions.
I thought you said
Quote by gulsonroad30664
when people ask for solutions, i say it's not for me to lead you but for you to be enpowered with the knowledge to lead yourself. solutions come from knowledge not ignorance.
So which is it? Join with you to come up with solutions or not to lead.........you should make your mind up Guls
Dave_Nottsbefore you can come up with solutions, you have to first understand the problemyou are trying to solve. understanding as much as you possibly can by debate and constant analysis brings you closer to the total of the reality that you are trying to comprehend in its totality. i do not profess to know all of the issue but am constantly persueing and analysing as much data and information as i can, filtering bullshit and spin that is constantly thrown around to disguise the depth of the crisis.
hope you and max are with me and not against.
The problem is though Gulson, is that you do NOT understand the problem. The central plank to your argument is that the Bank of England, along with all other central banks, is a private bank and lends to the government at interest and that the whole world is indebted to a cartel of bankers and due to the interest they charge, the debts can never be repaid as there is not enough money in the world.
Unfortunately that is bollox!
There is no doubt that there is a monetary crisis within the banking system but it was caused by the deregulation of the banks effectively allowing them to become gamblers and the results of their (bad) gambling leading to the banks becoming massively under capitalised. The current situation is exacerbated by the previous governments profligate spending resulting in huge levels of government debt.
You ask for debate and I'm quite happy to debate but it is a pointless exercise when the central
plank of your argument is patently incorrect. You have said you can prove everything you say, then spend hours doing everything to avoid having to provide proof.
To me, you are talking bollox, along with your other conspiracy theories, such as 9/11 being an inside job, there being non existant bombers re 7/7 ( try telling that to the survivors and victims relatives currently attending the inquests), Al Qaeda not existing etc etc.
I'm not going to play your game any longer but hey, keep ranting, you have your desciples.
mmm. so you do know about the deregulation in the city and termination of glass steagal allowing retail banks, hedgefunds and commercial banks to gamble with credit that they did not have (under capitalised) with only tiny reserve (50 to 70 times and more) and lose, only for governments to backstop their loses with tax payers money, eliminating their risk (encouraging further wrecklessness) and affording record bonuses to be paid.
as i have alluded to before max on more than one occaision in the past on this site. i was never patronising you. you understand very well what is taking place and like me are alarmed at the direction that this process is heading in. all the proof you ask for is available to you as you well know, of everything i have said.
we shall never know the totality of liabilities on financial institutions balance sheets but even mainstream financial journalist's reports put the figure in the quadrillions for credit default swaps alone. you are aware of this and know, that wether it be greece, ireland, portugal, spain, italy, the u.s. or the u.k., that such debt can never be repaid. how was it created and where (who) did it come from ? fraud.
repudiate the debt or call a moretorium. which one of us is playing a game ?
regards alf
The only person playing games here Gulson, is you. I understand only too well the financial problems that this and other countries are facing and that is why I also know that you are talking bollox. That's not me being patronising either. As I said in my previous post, rant away to your heart's content as I'm not playing your little game any longer.
The one thing I do have to thank you for though is your posts have pointed me in the direction of various websites where I can see you get your ideas from!
The one thing I do have to thank you for though is your posts have pointed me in the direction of various websites where I can see you get your ideas from!
Sex God
I think I have the answer !!
We should convert all the Monetary Debt into BISCUIT Debt. For instance instead of us owing 386 Billion pounds we could convert that to 386 Billion Jaffa Cakes, the Irish could convert their debt into Waggon Wheels and the Greeks could use Kit Kats.
So now we're trading in useful stuff and stuff which can't be created by tapping a key on a computer. Also, if the warehouses where this "biscuit debt" is kept has a rodent problem then the debt disapears overnight.............Simples !!!
John
We should convert all the Monetary Debt into BISCUIT Debt. For instance instead of us owing 386 Billion pounds we could convert that to 386 Billion Jaffa Cakes, the Irish could convert their debt into Waggon Wheels and the Greeks could use Kit Kats.
So now we're trading in useful stuff and stuff which can't be created by tapping a key on a computer. Also, if the warehouses where this "biscuit debt" is kept has a rodent problem then the debt disapears overnight.............Simples !!!
John
Sex God
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
I think I have the answer !!
We should convert all the Monetary Debt into BISCUIT Debt. For instance instead of us owing 386 Billion pounds we could convert that to 386 Billion Jaffa Cakes, the Irish could convert their debt into Waggon Wheels and the Greeks could use Kit Kats.
So now we're trading in useful stuff and stuff which can't be created by tapping a key on a computer. Also, if the warehouses where this "biscuit debt" is kept has a rodent problem then the debt disapears overnight.............Simples !!!
John
And you don't feel that the poor wagon wheel has not suffered enough at the hands of deflation!
:giggle:
Quote by Geordiecpl2001
I think I have the answer !!
We should convert all the Monetary Debt into BISCUIT Debt. For instance instead of us owing 386 Billion pounds we could convert that to 386 Billion Jaffa Cakes, the Irish could convert their debt into Waggon Wheels and the Greeks could use Kit Kats.
So now we're trading in useful stuff and stuff which can't be created by tapping a key on a computer. Also, if the warehouses where this "biscuit debt" is kept has a rodent problem then the debt disapears overnight.............Simples !!!
John
Sorry John, no can do.
Because of VAT rules, Jaffa Cakes could NOT BE CONSIDERED as eligible for biscuit debt as the simplistic answer is that CAKES GO HARD WHEN LEFT AND EXPOSED TO OPEN AIR and yet biscuits GO SOGGY!
It is not for me to lead you, but a leading source of user submitted articles states the following:
Under UK law, no Value Added Tax (VAT) is charged on plain biscuits and cakes — they are "zero rated". Chocolate covered biscuits, however, are subject to VAT. In Ireland, plain biscuits and cakes attract the "reduced" rate. Chocolate cakes and biscuits attract the "standard" rate. McVities classed its Jaffa Cakes as cakes, but in 1991, this was challenged by Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and the case ended up before the courts. This may have been because Jaffa Cakes are about the same size and shape as some types of biscuit, and particularly because they are commonly eaten alongside, or instead of, traditional biscuits. The court asked "What criteria should be used to class something as a cake?"
McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes, producing a 12" (30 cm) Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes.
McVities argued that a distinction between cakes and biscuits is, among other things, that biscuits would normally be expected to go soft when stale, whereas cakes would normally be expected to go hard. It was demonstrated to the Tribunal that Jaffa Cakes become hard when stale. Other factors taken into account by the Chairman, Potter QC, included the name, ingredients, texture, size, packaging, marketing, presentation, appeal to children, and manufacturing process. Potter ruled that the Jaffa Cake is a cake. McVities therefore won the case and VAT is not paid on Jaffa Cakes in the UK.
Regards,
Essex Meldrew
Quote by Max777you should have just asked me...f.t.......wsj.......telegraph.....money week.....washington post......bloomberg......max keiser....jim rogers......LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS......milton friedman.....keynes......das capital.......myers......austrian school......goldman sachs.......start with these
The only person playing games here Gulson, is you. I understand only too well the financial problems that this and other countries are facing and that is why I also know that you are talking bollox. That's not me being patronising either. As I said in my previous post, rant away to your heart's content as I'm not playing your little game any longer.
The one thing I do have to thank you for though is your posts have pointed me in the direction of various websites where I can see you get your ideas from!
Quote by gulsonroad30664
you should have just asked me...f.t.......wsj.......telegraph.....money week.....washington post......bloomberg......max keiser....jim rogers......LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS......milton friedman.....keynes......das capital.......myers......austrian school......goldman sachs.......start with these
That is a list Guls. No proof at all of any of your claims. This is why some people are frustrated at what you are saying.
Is the reason that you are afraid to place any proof is that others can then look at it and evaluate it? At the moment you make a statement.........and thats it. No evidence, no links. When someone puts on this thread an alternative view with evidence and links you then dismiss it as fraudulent and lies but with no alternative evidence. If this was a court case and I was a jurist and the defendant stated to me "I have the knowledge, you should go look for it yourself" then I am afraid they have just lost their case. A forum is a platform for people to bring their beliefs and opinions to. To debate and discuss, very similar to a court. The watchers and contributers will read with interest and may even change their mind from what they read. Yet when their is no proof, no links, then they have no other option but not believe that person, unless they already carried that beleif with them already.
Some of the links that you advised me to follow in the past lead to websites that have critisised governments for not releasing or producing the evidence. This is exactly what you are doing within this thread.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Oh my word - still no answers from Gulson and you're still here asking him?
Waste of time. Just tell him he's right and let him rant/copy and paste/make nice lists of important sounding terminology that he thinks make him sound clever. Even his basic spelling leaves a lot to be desired. Stop feeding him
Waste of time. Just tell him he's right and let him rant/copy and paste/make nice lists of important sounding terminology that he thinks make him sound clever. Even his basic spelling leaves a lot to be desired. Stop feeding him
Quote by Freckledbird
Oh my word - still no answers from Gulson and you're still here asking him?
Waste of time. Just tell him he's right and let him rant/copy and paste/make nice lists of important sounding terminology that he thinks make him sound clever. Even his basic spelling leaves a lot to be desired. Stop feeding him
yor rite frekle, my spellin gets wurse the more glases i drink. dont take any notice of me. i dont know what i'm talking about but also, i have never posted and pasted.
we shall see alf
Sex God
Quote by Too Hot
Does anyone else think that the issues in Ireland (which followed Greece) and which will soon manifest themselves in Portugal & Spain are entirely avoidable?
The Tories were right all along - The Euro has removed all rights of self protection and now Ireland has simply put off by a few years the day when it will be forced to quit the Euro and we all will have paid heavily for those few years.
The Euro is a dead duck and can only exist with similar stable economies - all other economies are signing themselves up for hyper inflation and total loss of state identity until the time comes when they just have to jump ship because the cost of natural domestic disaster outweighs the financial obligations to pay back loans in a higher value currency than the one they have just abandoned.
I predict that Greece will be the first to jump ship on the realisation that a massively devalued Drachma will at least bring tourists back as well as help national exports - the pay back to the Euro zone may well take a lifetime but sooner or later they will have to opt for the lesser of two evils. Think about it - who goes to Greece now when it is three times the price of Turkey for the same experience?
After Greece will be Spain and then a toss up between Portugal & Ireland at which time the French & Germans will will over react by trying to keep the Eurozone intact and force the smaller countries out as well.
So going back to the original post..............
Is withdrawal from the €Euro zone an option for Ireland and accepting an even greater debt than they already have now by having to pay it back with a weaker currency?
Or do they take the EU money, then repudiate it, then arrest the politicians and bankers and start trading potatoes again?
Quote by gulsonroad30664
Oh my word - still no answers from Gulson and you're still here asking him?
Waste of time. Just tell him he's right and let him rant/copy and paste/make nice lists of important sounding terminology that he thinks make him sound clever. Even his basic spelling leaves a lot to be desired. Stop feeding him
yor rite frekle, my spellin gets wurse the more glases i drink. dont take any notice of me. i dont know what i'm talking about but also, i have never posted and pasted.
we shall see alf
Guls
Why are you resorting to type again?
Why not give evidence of what you say?
Do you actually have any evidence?
Dave_Notts
If we need to change because things are not working then we need something to change to.
All the evidence that has been shown for boom and bust over the centuries is because of banking and money. Previous to this time we had a barter society, and their was no boom or bust........it was live (you had enough to eat) or die (you didn't have enough to eat).
The alternatives that are on websites out there go against the mainstream, then they do not agree with each other whether it could work or not. There is no other way that will magically change our situations. One of the things that was put forward in this thread was the LETT. It is removing money out of the system and going back to bartering. We are now materialistic and people would want "x" amount in their pocket over being owed "two rooms to be decorated". In theory it is ok for small communities, in practice it is going back to the dark ages.
So why if you know it is wrong, why do you have to provide the solution? Just the old saying of don't come with problems, come with solutions..........as anybody can moan.
We all know that economies go through cycles of boom and bust, and there are winners and losers. It could be looked at as wealth re-distribution. As people like making predictions, in ten years time we will be in a boom situation.....do I know something? No, it is just historic evidence. Things go through phases.
We have no green shoots and everything is going downhill.........just I do not see it everywhere. For example UB Biscuits profits stood at 13% for 2010. Yep, that looks like no green shoots and totally failing to me. There are other businesses that are showing record profits, and others that are showing record losses. Thats life I am afraid.
Dave_Notts
All the evidence that has been shown for boom and bust over the centuries is because of banking and money. Previous to this time we had a barter society, and their was no boom or bust........it was live (you had enough to eat) or die (you didn't have enough to eat).
The alternatives that are on websites out there go against the mainstream, then they do not agree with each other whether it could work or not. There is no other way that will magically change our situations. One of the things that was put forward in this thread was the LETT. It is removing money out of the system and going back to bartering. We are now materialistic and people would want "x" amount in their pocket over being owed "two rooms to be decorated". In theory it is ok for small communities, in practice it is going back to the dark ages.
So why if you know it is wrong, why do you have to provide the solution? Just the old saying of don't come with problems, come with solutions..........as anybody can moan.
We all know that economies go through cycles of boom and bust, and there are winners and losers. It could be looked at as wealth re-distribution. As people like making predictions, in ten years time we will be in a boom situation.....do I know something? No, it is just historic evidence. Things go through phases.
We have no green shoots and everything is going downhill.........just I do not see it everywhere. For example UB Biscuits profits stood at 13% for 2010. Yep, that looks like no green shoots and totally failing to me. There are other businesses that are showing record profits, and others that are showing record losses. Thats life I am afraid.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Gulson? Serious question? Why do you let people wind you up like this? To the point where you seem to give up on the whole proper debate thing and settle for becoming a caricature of yourself?
I for one agree with you in large part that the solution to the failure of economic policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital sure as hell ain't the application of still more policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital. I accept that yer South American Chicago Boy laborotaries have been back-pedalling at a ferocious pace for some time. I believe that the IMF was dead in the water not 5 years ago cos their prescriptions were no longer deemed to be the miracle injection they were seen to be a decade or so ago? Seems like the IMF and their proven to be failed prescriptions re: massive austerity measures and fucking over the poor are on the ascendency again cos countries have nowhere to go? T'is quite scary that, IMO? ;)
Trouble is, you make a piss poor argument at times. In fact, you make very little argument whatsoever, beyond the whole 'Wake up sheeple' kinda thing? If you have the courage of your convictions, please present them. I for one would read them with interest!
N x x x ;)
I for one agree with you in large part that the solution to the failure of economic policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital sure as hell ain't the application of still more policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital. I accept that yer South American Chicago Boy laborotaries have been back-pedalling at a ferocious pace for some time. I believe that the IMF was dead in the water not 5 years ago cos their prescriptions were no longer deemed to be the miracle injection they were seen to be a decade or so ago? Seems like the IMF and their proven to be failed prescriptions re: massive austerity measures and fucking over the poor are on the ascendency again cos countries have nowhere to go? T'is quite scary that, IMO? ;)
Trouble is, you make a piss poor argument at times. In fact, you make very little argument whatsoever, beyond the whole 'Wake up sheeple' kinda thing? If you have the courage of your convictions, please present them. I for one would read them with interest!
N x x x ;)
Quote by flower411
But the point being made is that boom and bust is a deliberate policy of the ruling elite ....the bankers... who pull the strings of the politicians. The longer they get away with engineering the economy to thier own advantage and the longer they can keep the population under control the more difficult it will be to change.
On a personal level, I have already started preparing for all sorts of outcomes and although I don`t expect a total breakdown of society within my lifetime, I do expect a catastrophic series of events that will change our current cosy situation in the western democracies beyond all recognition.
There may not be an answer at all, it may just be a good idea to make yourself ready. Try your best to pay off any debt you already have and don`t build up any in the future. Go without rather than agreeing to pay later.
Save up for things and buy them outright if you can`t do without them.
Recycle stuff ..... and I don`t mean putting it the green bin !!!!! Reuse stuff, mend things rather than buying new ones. Put yourself in a position where you are less reliant on fossil fuels.
Be ready, is my only solution.
"Be ready for what ?" I hear you cry !!
Be ready for the worst scenario you can imagine ......and I don`t mean the final of xfactor being cancelled !!!!
Individuals can do this and some are engaged in it. Can countries or large business though. It would be great if the government only spent what it had. But what would have happened in the Industrial Revolution? Would that have happened without access to credit? Would we have still been an island of sheep farmers if we didn't borrow for investment?
It would be lovely not to have any debt, but is it achievable? These are the solutions I would love to listen to.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Quote by Dave__Notts
But the point being made is that boom and bust is a deliberate policy of the ruling elite ....the bankers... who pull the strings of the politicians. The longer they get away with engineering the economy to thier own advantage and the longer they can keep the population under control the more difficult it will be to change.
On a personal level, I have already started preparing for all sorts of outcomes and although I don`t expect a total breakdown of society within my lifetime, I do expect a catastrophic series of events that will change our current cosy situation in the western democracies beyond all recognition.
There may not be an answer at all, it may just be a good idea to make yourself ready. Try your best to pay off any debt you already have and don`t build up any in the future. Go without rather than agreeing to pay later.
Save up for things and buy them outright if you can`t do without them.
Recycle stuff ..... and I don`t mean putting it the green bin !!!!! Reuse stuff, mend things rather than buying new ones. Put yourself in a position where you are less reliant on fossil fuels.
Be ready, is my only solution.
"Be ready for what ?" I hear you cry !!
Be ready for the worst scenario you can imagine ......and I don`t mean the final of xfactor being cancelled !!!!
Individuals can do this and some are engaged in it. Can countries or large business though. It would be great if the government only spent what it had. But what would have happened in the Industrial Revolution? Would that have happened without access to credit? Would we have still been an island of sheep farmers if we didn't borrow for investment?
It would be lovely not to have any debt, but is it achievable? These are the solutions I would love to listen to.
Dave_Notts
Maybe we would all be happyer?
Master of Sex
Quote by Bluefish2009
Maybe we would all be happyer?
Yet to meet a happy sheep farmer.
Sex God
Quote by Jewlnmart
Maybe we would all be happier?
Yet to meet a happy sheep farmer.
Oh! you have been unlucky
Quote by neilinleeds
Gulson? Serious question? Why do you let people wind you up like this? To the point where you seem to give up on the whole proper debate thing and settle for becoming a caricature of yourself?
I for one agree with you in large part that the solution to the failure of economic policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital sure as hell ain't the application of still more policies along the lines of over-borrowed, de-regulated, free-market movements of capital. I accept that yer South American Chicago Boy laborotaries have been back-pedalling at a ferocious pace for some time. I believe that the IMF was dead in the water not 5 years ago cos their prescriptions were no longer deemed to be the miracle injection they were seen to be a decade or so ago? Seems like the IMF and their proven to be failed prescriptions re: massive austerity measures and fucking over the poor are on the ascendency again cos countries have nowhere to go? T'is quite scary that, IMO? ;)
Trouble is, you make a piss poor argument at times. In fact, you make very little argument whatsoever, beyond the whole 'Wake up sheeple' kinda thing? If you have the courage of your convictions, please present them. I for one would read them with interest!
N x x x ;)
neil, thank you for your interest. you are very perceptive and fiscally alert.
it would not matter what evidence you put forward, which i have done, because naturally people are in denial. you could take the veiw, if you wanted to, of the fraudster nouriel roubini who's claim to fame was that of predicting the crisis who now says risk is fading but we are not out of the woods yet nonsense or that of paul volker and alan greenspan who have both acknowleged the insolvable nature of debt servicing debt.
contrary to front page headlines (express tues 14th "house prices are rising"), all of the evidence of systemic worldwide collapse are there for all to see in the financial pages of publications like the f.t. and telegraph.
why would banks who's balance sheets are impaired by toxic assets like credit default swaps of no value marked as having a value, who can borrow at .5% from the central bank and lend it as bonds, gilts or treasuries to soveriegn entities at % consider lending at risk to any enterprise ? they wont ! they are insolvent ! it is not a question of liquidity (you can print as much as you like), its a question of insolvency. the banks are bankrupt !
to resolve there bankruptcy, they are, along with their owned politicians, robbing the people of what little they have left (austerity) and that wont solve the problem only increase the rate of collapse. a b c
relative micro...if you increase the limit on student fees by 200%, a percentage of students that would have gone to uni wont. surplus of uni's. surplus of lecturers, surplus of principles, surplus of admin. surplus of mrs mop's cleaning the classrooms.
all activity relies on the availability of credit (money) at an affordable price and terms. it IS NOT as i have pointed out above. if credit (money) is being removed from circulation in the form of interest and fees, and new credit (money) is not available at equal rate or more, then the tendancy is for the amount in circulation and its velocity to fall. = deflation (meaning fall in most asset classes values) there are speculative influences that challenge this general law i.e. the casino stock market (totally fixed by insider trading and has been for years).
we can expand on this further but i have been posting regarding this topic because i want people to become more aware of the process that is taking place and who is responsible. this is not like previous recessions/depressions. this is the mother of them all. regards dave
