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Greece : Right or Wrong to hold Referendum ?

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With yesterday's 'shock' announcement by the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou to hold a referendum on a EU debt rescue package, endorsed by his cabinet overnight, do you agree with their approach ?
It may even be invalid if fewer than the required 40% of voters take part.
Even if it were to climb over the 40% threshold, the result may be ignored. After all, anything approved with less than a 55% majority is not mandatory - just advisory.
The planned referendum also threatens to unravel a deal reached at a EU summit last week aimed at resolving the euro debt crisis.
Leaders agreed on a 100bn-euro loan (£86bn; $140bn) to Athens and a 50% debt write-off.
But in return, Greece must make deep cuts in public spending, slashing pensions and wages and making thousands of civil servants redundant.
Eurozone chief Jean-Claude Juncker said if a referendum rejected the bailout, it could mean bankruptcy for Greece. "It will depend on the manner in which the question will be exactly formulated and on what the Greeks exactly vote on," he said.
I certainly dont agree with the way he announced it, it seems like Mr Papandreou has staked all on a single roll of the dice.
With the vote of no confidence on friday it looks like he expected to lose, and has done this as a last ditch attempt to cling to power.
Alea iacta est
Quote by Big_Fraser
Alea iacta est

Oooooooooooo they are playing craps
Can I have a roll :bounce:
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Alea iacta est

Oooooooooooo they are playing craps
Can I have a roll :bounce:
Dave_Notts
Yeah come to my casino, it costs £££ for chips and pays out in €€€ biggrin
I believe it is OK for the Greek people to hold referendum on a EU debt rescue package, It is after all the people who will have to suffer the austerity measures required to pay this back. I feel it is Right for those who will suffer to decide there own fate, it was not them who lost it, but they have to pay it back. If of coarse they vote yes, which I don't think they will, and it all goes tits up, the Prime Minister can say, you voted for it.
I suspect the result of this is that Greece could well be the first country to default and have their debt wiped and start afresh. Interesting and scary times ahead.
Quote by Bluefish2009
I suspect the result of this is that Greece could well be the first country to default and have their debt wiped and start afresh. Interesting and scary times ahead.

What would happen if they did default?
Dave_Notts
would you vote for pay cuts..and higher taxes..and smaller pensions ?
Greece will default....leave the euro..and go back to the Drackma. However what is more worrying is the domino effect. Portugal, italy and Spain...are all on the brink. It was even mentioned on radio yesterday that France is not far behind. I'm thinking of taking my money out the bank and sticking it under my matress !!!! safest place I'm thinking !!
Quote by Dave__Notts
I suspect the result of this is that Greece could well be the first country to default and have their debt wiped and start afresh. Interesting and scary times ahead.

What would happen if they did default?
Dave_Notts
In all honesty Dave, I do not know, harder times than staying in I suspect. But I still feel they will default. I shall follow this story with great interest
Quote by deancannock
I'm thinking of taking my money out the bank and sticking it under my matress !!!! safest place I'm thinking !!

I read recently that in France, that's exactly the advice being given... don't put all your eggs in one basket, have a stash somewhere in case it all goes tits up! Problem for the Française is that the Franc has at long last died its death and is no longer legal tender. All those millions of Francs still missing buried in biscuit tins and no prospect of ever spending it.
As for Greece, well; they never have been anywhere near compliant on anything European and it is hardly surprising that the PM has announced this move towards holding a referendum with the very slight majority he holds (3, I think) so late in the day.
Problem is that that he should have come clean at the outset indicating he did not have the authority to commit Greece to the deal instead of burying his head in the sand (or dipping it in to the taramasalata). The world markets have understandably reacted badly to this idiocy and he has risked the whole of the Euro zone for his own short term gain.
Bloody typical of the Greeks.
If it was the UK and not Greece - the population would be screaming for a referendum.
This is only delaying the inevitable. Whether Greece defaults in, or out, of the Euro is somewhat irrelevant cos they will still have to pay back what they owe. The country is bust because they do not have the economic capability to live to their Euro status.
Coming out of the Euro will be massively damaging for Greece as it will devalue their returning currency by about 50% but in fact put them where they should be, not where the Euro has been artificially keeping them.
If Greece, Spain, Portugal and others come out of the Euro they will benefit from massive increase in tourism and their domestic products will sell better on the International markets - but that will be small comfort for the decades of debt that will face them in the future and a reduced value currency with which to repay it.
at leest unlike blare and now cameron and brown that the Greek minister has the guts to do what greece demands which is a true democracy based on thousands of yeers.
unlike in the uk where they promised us a referendum in there manifestos and then lied there bollocks off and then slunk into the corner and denied us that right.
greece are fucked as is ireland as is a huge part of europe. Us? we are fucked to only we don't realise that just yet.
take away the only thing worth anything now which is the banks and we are on a level with cuba, no wonder the government skinted us by bailing them out as without them we are now worthless and more importantly as skint as the next euro country.
Quote by starlightcouple
greece are fucked as is ireland as is a huge part of europe. Us? we are fucked to only we don't realise that just yet.

Ireland seem to be doing particularly well just now....
Quote by GnV
greece are fucked as is ireland as is a huge part of europe. Us? we are fucked to only we don't realise that just yet.

Ireland seem to be doing particularly well just now....
so would a lot of countries much larger than ireland had they of received what was it now? oh yes 72 billion pounds.
any country like ireland that was so desperate to sign up to that currency who because of that go into meltdown, then i beleeve the other euro states should have bailed them out. unfortunatly even though we as a country opted not to join the euro we will still have to contribute to help to bail them out with even more of our money, even though we are effctivly skint as well.
of course ireland are doing ok they were bailed out just like our banks were. the banks made awful decisions which meant they lost huge sums of money, and ireland whilst not the same still made terrible decisions culminating in them on the brink of going bankrupt as a country. had they not have got any money then i am sure ireland would be worth less than malawi.
when little fish want to become friends with the bigger fish in the pond, sometimes by trying to keep up, they can get swallowed up. ireland take note.

not gone bust but only by the skin of there teeth and the bail out by other countries. give that ammount of money to other hard pressed poor countries and they would be doing fine as well. ireland is only doing ok because others stopped them from going they should have let them go under and that would have been a lesson to us all. do not try and keep up with things much bigger and faster than yourself, you will get bitten.
ireland got the referendum that we did not and they decided a big no. then they were forced politically to take another referendum, and then were railroaded into accepting. they only have themselves to blame for their dire financial mess, and we as a nation should never have contributed a penny to that!
The referendum is withdrawn, it seems.
Quote by GnV
The referendum is withdrawn, it seems.

is it gnv?
all i can find is that some members in the greek parliment have said they are not supporting it.
i do not see how they have any choice in the matter. if the greek peeple voted against the bailout, then surely the whole country would sink? the rest of europe who are in the euro would lose billions and billions of euros as the markets would crash. the money lost would be far worse than the money they are attempting to give to greece.
i bet other euro countries are sweting there bollocks off because surely if greece go under the euro would be dead and buried along with possibly a few other countries.
what was that i stated about little fish wanting to be a bigger fish than they are?
Quote by starlightcouple
The referendum is withdrawn, it seems.

is it gnv?
Says so
Maybe its less a question of whether Greece wants to stay in teh Euro and more about if the Euro-zone countries still want Greece in there.
UK, of course, shouldn't have a say since we aren't in it.
Quote by foxylady2209
Maybe its less a question of whether Greece wants to stay in teh Euro and more about if the Euro-zone countries still want Greece in there.
UK, of course, shouldn't have a say since we aren't in it.

I have not read into this, but someone on this forum insinuated that we have given money to bail out the Euro. If this is the case then we should have a say........but if we haven't then I agree with you
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
Maybe its less a question of whether Greece wants to stay in teh Euro and more about if the Euro-zone countries still want Greece in there.
UK, of course, shouldn't have a say since we aren't in it.

I have not read into this, but someone on this forum insinuated that we have given money to bail out the Euro. If this is the case then we should have a say........but if we haven't then I agree with you
Dave_Notts
Dave,
Thought the UK involvement was like our Irish 'bail-out' the other year, i.e. we'd leant them money at a high (relative) interest rate
Quote by HnS
Maybe its less a question of whether Greece wants to stay in teh Euro and more about if the Euro-zone countries still want Greece in there.
UK, of course, shouldn't have a say since we aren't in it.

I have not read into this, but someone on this forum insinuated that we have given money to bail out the Euro. If this is the case then we should have a say........but if we haven't then I agree with you
Dave_Notts
Dave,
Thought the UK involvement was like our Irish 'bail-out' the other year, i.e. we'd leant them money at a high (relative) interest rate
As members of the IMF, the UK provided funds to them and has a place at the table, as it were.
If the IMF then made a loan to a Member State in the Euro, it was under IMF rules (which the UK is entitled to participate in and comment on as a contributing member of the fund), not because the UK provided funds per-se to prop up the Euro, but because a Member State in the Euro was voted assistance.
There's a subtle difference.
The direct loan to Eire was a different matter altogether and should not be confused with bailing out the Euro, now under scrutiny.
the euro masters being the french and the germans would never let a member state go to the wall. if that were to happen europe would collapse as we know it. the euro would be dead and buried except for the peeple who would fight for it until there dying breaths. no guessing who they would be.
greece is an example of what can happen when a little country wants to play big boy politics. greece have one industry and that is the tourist. the current riots just like in egypt have only unsettled the greek economy more than it already was. if this is not stopped now greece will plunge into certain uncertanty for yeers to come.
i always said that europe and especially the euro was a disaster waiting to happen and so it has proved. greece had no alternative solution other than to watch as there paymasters in the euro namely france and germany, bankrolled there survival.
just think a civilisasion like greece that has existed for thousands of yeers, taken to the point of bankrupsy and destruction, just because the suited idiots in there parliament thought it would be good for greece to become part of the euro. goes to show they actuually like most politicians are liars and actually know fuck all about the peeple they reckon they serve.
the greek god of thunder should be rising up with anger . Thor is certainly angry.
what country will be next? italy or portugal? let us hope it is not the uk eh?
Quote by starlightcouple
the greek god of thunder should be rising up with anger . Thor is certainly angry.

classical education required
Ares
The god of war, bloodlust, violence, manly courage, and civil order. The son of Zeus and Hera, he was depicted as either a mature, bearded warrior dressed in battle arms, or a nude beardless youth with helm and spear. His attributes are golden armour and a bronze-tipped spear. His sacred animals are the vulture, venomous snakes, alligators, and dogs.
or did you mean
Zeus
The king of the gods, the ruler of Mount Olympus and the god of the sky, weather, thunder, law, order, and fate. He is the youngest son of Cronus and Rhea, whom he overthrew after Cronus swallowed his brothers and sisters and he is brother-husband to Hera. In artwork, he was depicted as a regal, mature man with a sturdy figure and dark beard. His usual attributes are the royal scepter and the lightning bolt, and his sacred animals are the eagle and the bull.
whereas
Thor
In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing, healing, and fertility.
Thor is a prominently mentioned god throughout the recorded history of the Germanic peoples, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania, to the tribal expansions of the Migration Period, to his high popularity during the Viking Age, when, in the face of the process of the Christianization of Scandinavia, emblems of his hammer, Mjölnir, were worn in defiance and Norse pagan personal names containing the name of the god bear witness to his popularity.
Into the modern period, Thor continued to be acknowledged in rural folklore throughout Germanic regions.
So Star, Thor as the god of thunder might well be rising up with anger though any resembalance between the current German Chancellor with Thor is probably libellous, though it is probably true she is angry with the Greeks
interesting script but poorly stage managed. beware greeks bearing referendum (democracy). highly unlikely unless it's just part of the blame game. must watch the next episode of "the contrived world economic monetary crisis unfolding". it will be on every night from now on. i do like the characters being played by the selected politicians, they do make me laugh, especially when they forget their lines and drop things out of the bag.
lazy phukin greeks, irish, portugese, spaniards, italians, icelandic's, belgians,french and british. they all borrowed too much money (must have got it from mars) and now cant pay it back to whoever lent it them wherever they got it from. musta bin mars or anuva planet. give em all cuts and austerity. that'll teach em to live within their means.......i feel anuva war comin on..... ah yes, keep watchin that telievision, the way outa this mess is to av anuva war and destroy all that debt (and the debtors). ....lets blame the fussiewussies cos they is sittin on oil......
Quote by gulsonroad30664
interesting script but poorly stage managed. beware greeks bearing referendum (democracy). highly unlikely unless it's just part of the blame game. must watch the next episode of "the contrived world economic monetary crisis unfolding". it will be on every night from now on. i do like the characters being played by the selected politicians, they do make me laugh, especially when they forget their lines and drop things out of the bag.
lazy phukin greeks, irish, portugese, spaniards, italians, icelandic's, belgians,french and british. they all borrowed too much money (must have got it from mars) and now cant pay it back to whoever lent it them wherever they got it from. musta bin mars or anuva planet. give em all cuts and austerity. that'll teach em to live within their means.......i feel anuva war comin on..... ah yes, keep watchin that telievision, the way outa this mess is to av anuva war and destroy all that debt (and the debtors). ....lets blame the fussiewussies cos they is sittin on oil......

Is this a new language you write? :shock:
Quote by gulsonroad30664
lets blame the fussiewussies cos they is sittin on oil......

Last time I used that expression, it ended in a ban :shock:
Quote by HnS
So Star, Thor as the god of thunder might well be rising up with anger though any resembalance between the current German Chancellor with Thor is probably libellous, though it is probably true she is angry with the Greeks

:laughabove::laughabove:
:cheers:
Quote by Freckledbird
interesting script but poorly stage managed. beware greeks bearing referendum (democracy). highly unlikely unless it's just part of the blame game. must watch the next episode of "the contrived world economic monetary crisis unfolding". it will be on every night from now on. i do like the characters being played by the selected politicians, they do make me laugh, especially when they forget their lines and drop things out of the bag.
lazy phukin greeks, irish, portugese, spaniards, italians, icelandic's, belgians,french and british. they all borrowed too much money (must have got it from mars) and now cant pay it back to whoever lent it them wherever they got it from. musta bin mars or anuva planet. give em all cuts and austerity. that'll teach em to live within their means.......i feel anuva war comin on..... ah yes, keep watchin that telievision, the way outa this mess is to av anuva war and destroy all that debt (and the debtors). ....lets blame the fussiewussies cos they is sittin on oil......

Is this a new language you write? :shock:
the spelling is atrocious eh mrs frckle? :bounce:
Quote by gulsonroad30664
interesting script but poorly stage managed. beware greeks bearing referendum (democracy). highly unlikely unless it's just part of the blame game. must watch the next episode of "the contrived world economic monetary crisis unfolding". it will be on every night from now on. i do like the characters being played by the selected politicians, they do make me laugh, especially when they forget their lines and drop things out of the bag.
lazy phukin greeks, irish, portugese, spaniards, italians, icelandic's, belgians,french and british. they all borrowed too much money (must have got it from mars) and now cant pay it back to whoever lent it them wherever they got it from. musta bin mars or anuva planet. give em all cuts and austerity. that'll teach em to live within their means.......i feel anuva war comin on..... ah yes, keep watchin that telievision, the way outa this mess is to av anuva war and destroy all that debt (and the debtors). ....lets blame the fussiewussies cos they is sittin on oil......

I'm not sure I follow your logic here Gulson. Whose debt are you referring to? Debtors are people that owe money to you........doesn't make sense to destroy them. It could make sense to destroy your creditors, ie the people that you owe money to. But of course you didn't mean that as you do know what you're talking about, don't you?
Also, a huge portion of the West's debt is owed to China and I don't see the West taking China on anytime soon.
Just tell them the cheque's in the post. That should keep them quiet for a few weeks. lol
Quote by Max777
snip...
Also, a huge portion of the West's debt is owed to China and I don't see the West taking China on anytime soon.

Interesting thought there.
When 'dubbya' was standing for re-election (his second term) there was a great deal of controversy in the States (I was there at the time) about his ability such as is the discussion now about Obama.
The general consensus at the time was that the American people never vote a President out of office if there's a war going on.
Currently, (other than few bits left over from the last Administration) there is no war going on so BA is exposed.
He has 12 months to start one - hands up with suggestions as to where he might decide to start one.
North Korea? That would get the Chinese going somewhat :grin: