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Hail to the new Hostel

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Quote by MidsCouple24
France of course has run true to form and pulled its troops out of the danger zone 2 days ago and 2 years ahead of the rest of the coalition and are sending them all home this month, nothing unusual there.

A wise choice by France. We should have done the same.
Quote by Ben_Minx
Agriculture
Construction
Manufacturing

The Armed forces do jobs where they risk their lives for the good of others. Whilst it might ultimately be argued that a war wasn't for the greater good that is the fault of the politicians not the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen that took part.
To my mind that is why I think the country owes more of a debt of respect to Soldiers than say Farmers, Civil Engineers, and Factory workers.
Quote by Robert400andKay
Agriculture
Construction
Manufacturing

The Armed forces do jobs where they risk their lives for the good of others. Whilst it might ultimately be argued that a war wasn't for the greater good that is the fault of the politicians not the Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen that took part.
To my mind that is why I think the country owes more of a debt of respect to Soldiers than say Farmers, Civil Engineers, and Factory workers.
I think you will find when we went to war, those soldiers were farmers, factory workers and engineers.
Professional soldiers were in short supply for WW1 and WW2...
and perhaps that is what it is that makes them special, they are just farmers, factory workers and everyday people who answer the call and usually for very low wages.
back in the 70s I was on supplementary benefit, I was serving in NI at the time but my wages were so low that I fell into the poverty area where the DHSS stepped in and paid the difference to my salary they deemed was the minimun needed to survive.
Quote by Ben_Minx
Fair point. So I assume you wouldnt be a bin man either.

You assume wrong. Have I said that at all? A bin mans job is bloody important to the people who want their rubbish taken away.
Quote by Ben_Minx
So what makes people who choose to be soldiers different?

I think Mids has already answered that question better than I could have. But I would also like an answer to the question Mids has asked of you.
Quote by You
Agriculture
Construction
Manufacturing

In reference to dangerous jobs and Mids has given you time scales as to deaths and injuries of soldiers.
Quote by MidsCouple24
what is your timescale for deaths in those industries, I gave you timescales for my examples, and those were British casualties, if you are going to do it since those industries began then what are the figures ? and do they compare with the number of soldiers lost in every conflict, war, battle ?
So how many British farmers were killed in 1 day, 11 years and 3 months (the examples I gave you. (you can pick a bad year/day/quarter)

I would also like an answer to that question, or are you just picking into thin air? I bet you come up with zero or will fail to answer the question put to you.
In my opinion all human beings deserve shelter food and warmth.
And I would agree with the sentiment Ben. It's interesting that quite often those who would extend their support and compassion to one group would not extend it to another in very similar circumstances. For example ( and Mids, I know you've never said this so no need to take me to task for it ) Mids mentions soldiers who've succumbed to alcohol and drug abuse after their exit from the services. IME many would feel sympathy there and offer their support for the project where they might be much less inclined to offer that same support for, and would even go so far as to dismiss and condemn a very similar group of drug and alcohol users in other circumstances. Buddhism teaches infinite compassion. It makes no distinction between the deserving and undeserving. One can not be said to be a truly compassionate human being if one is selective in its application.
Quite.
I think it's selective compassion that yanks my chain.
Quote by neilinleeds
And I would agree with the sentiment Ben. It's interesting that quite often those who would extend their support and compassion to one group would not extend it to another in very similar circumstances. For example ( and Mids, I know you've never said this so no need to take me to task for it ) Mids mentions soldiers who've succumbed to alcohol and drug abuse after their exit from the services. IME many would feel sympathy there and offer their support for the project where they might be much less inclined to offer that same support for, and would even go so far as to dismiss and condemn a very similar group of drug and alcohol users in other circumstances. Buddhism teaches infinite compassion. It makes no distinction between the deserving and undeserving. One can not be said to be a truly compassionate human being if one is selective in its application.

I would not take you to task over it because what you say is absolutely true, many of us do dismiss people who need help often believing that they are merely weak willed followers who go for the easy option and that all too often whatever help we give will simply be a waste of time as these people will soon go back to their old ways, it is a sad scenario but humans are well known for grouping everyone in the same bracket, we all like to think that we are compassionate to all that need help but the truth is very few are.
Why are people supporting this particular help for soldiers, partyly because they earn respect but I believe that folks don't think it would be a waste of time or money, that these once respected members of the community will return to it and be able to get themselves on the right track, that they once contributed to society and will again, not saying that is right or wrong but it is the human trait.
Humans are greedy, we always want more than what we have, we will not give it away too lightly so we do need to believe that people need our help, deserve our help and will indeed gain from our help.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Why are people supporting this particular help for soldiers, partly because they earn respect but I believe that folks don't think it would be a waste of time or money, that these once respected members of the community will return to it and be able to get themselves on the right track, that they once contributed to society and will again, not saying that is right or wrong but it is the human trait.

Forgive the edit.
I have worked with countless homeless people. All had a tragic back story and all benefited from the help provided.
Quote by Stevie_and_Kitty
France of course has run true to form and pulled its troops out of the danger zone 2 days ago and 2 years ahead of the rest of the coalition and are sending them all home this month, nothing unusual there.

A wise choice by France. We should have done the same.
Not so much true to form, but true to their word.
They said they would do it and have. 4 soldiers killed in one day by the very people they were sent there to protect and train.
Sometimes, enough is enough. I watched the pained look on the face of the new President of France and saw the resolve in his eyes to never again have to sit through such a ceremony as he was required to do so soon after taking office.
Let's not get embroiled in an argument about the French being cowardly. They are not. These were brave men who died without cause.
Sometimes, it's more brave to turn away than to die needlessly in a conflict that can never be won.
Quote by Ben_Minx
In my opinion all human beings deserve shelter food and warmth.

As I said earlier, I agree with you without reservation, but I did point out the reality of human thinking, it is sad but true that not everyone feel that way, I have no factual evidence but think that one of the biggest reasons for homelessness is not alcohol or drugs related but family breakups (possibly followed by financial problems losing a job etc). Apart from the mental anquish this can have setting up a new home for someone going through the trauma can be difficult, then coping with being alone perhaps for the first time in decades, missing the kids or the dog, it all adds up, if you do have drug or drink related problems there are organisations to help but there are very few organisations for those experiencing a family break up and so much harder for many to seek out, have a drug or drink problem the hospitals will set you on the path towards those that can help but do divorce lawyers do that, I don't think so.
All that doesn't stop many humans thinking they should have sorted it out themselves because they are all addicts or alcoholics that end up on the street.
ok so being a pedestrian as dangerous, somewhere between 5000 and 6000 die each year in the UK alone, but I have never seen "pedestrian" advertised as a job, people do not choose to be a pedestrian instead of a soldier, refuse collector, firefighter or office PA, so cannot really be compared as a "dangerous job".
Soldiers, refuse collectors, firefighters, office clerks, lawyers and check-out girls are also pedestrians.
Yep, there is a common misconception that the homeless are drinkers, druggies or loonies.
Many are, but that's the chicken not the egg.
Complex and individual are the reasons I have observed.
Quote by Ben_Minx
Yep, there is a common misconception that the homeless are drinkers, druggies or loonies.
Many are, but that's the chicken not the egg.
Complex and individual are the reasons I have observed.

They may not start out that way, but sure as hell they often end up that way.
But, I have to agree with Ben here. They are complex and very individual. There but for the grace etc....
Quote by GnV
France of course has run true to form and pulled its troops out of the danger zone 2 days ago and 2 years ahead of the rest of the coalition and are sending them all home this month, nothing unusual there.

A wise choice by France. We should have done the same.
Not so much true to form, but true to their word.
They said they would do it and have. 4 soldiers killed in one day by the very people they were sent there to protect and train.
Sometimes, enough is enough. I watched the pained look on the face of the new President of France and saw the resolve in his eyes to never again have to sit through such a ceremony as he was required to do so soon after taking office.
Let's not get embroiled in an argument about the French being cowardly. They are not. These were brave men who died without cause.
Sometimes, it's more brave to turn away than to die needlessly in a conflict that can never be won.
It will never happen of course but wouldn't it be nice if Governments did not put soldiers (airforce and Navy) into these situations in the first place some wars have to be fought but not all, I understood and supported our actions in the Gulf but have never supported our action in Afghanistan, however, ask most soldiers and all they seek is the equipment and authorisation to do the job they are asked to do and not to have themselves withdrawn before the job is done, nobody likes losing, I am sure that applies to the soldiers of France too, I am sure that they would like to think that the 86 men they lost did not die for nothing.
The armies of the world don't pull out of conflicts, they obey the orders of their respective governments, there is no doubt they would rather be at home with their families and friends but given the job they do like to see it through.
Politicians put them in there, then when popularity is at stake and with it votes they pull them out, what soldiers find difficult is that if it was important enough to send them in the first place what has changed when they are prevented from finishing the job, it is then that your friends life or his/her being maimed for life becomes a little pointless.
Personally I never had to face that and in the conflicts I worked in we were allowed to finnish the job even now though regulars here know how I feel about giving up the Falkland Islands, that I believe is a betrayal of the soldier.
Quote by Mids
I am sure that applies to the soldiers of France too, I am sure that they would like to think that the 86 men they lost did not die for nothing.

Maybe they are grateful to their masters that no more lives will be lost without good cause and reason.
Maybe the French military are more pragmatic dunno
I rather think that all troops in the alliance have similar emotions and only wish their masters were as forward thinking but their loyalty to their commanders in chief (whether misplaced or not) prevents them from expressing their true emotions.
Quote by GnV
I am sure that applies to the soldiers of France too, I am sure that they would like to think that the 86 men they lost did not die for nothing.

Maybe they are grateful to their masters that no more lives will be lost without good cause and reason.
Maybe the French military are more pragmatic dunno
I rather think that all troops in the alliance have similar emotions and only wish their masters were as forward thinking but their loyalty to their commanders in chief (whether misplaced or not) prevents them from expressing their true emotions.
Maybe ? who knows, my opinion is based on the views of my comrads in arms on various frontlines around the world, what do you base your opinion on may I ask ?
Quote by MidsCouple24
I am sure that applies to the soldiers of France too, I am sure that they would like to think that the 86 men they lost did not die for nothing.

Maybe they are grateful to their masters that no more lives will be lost without good cause and reason.
Maybe the French military are more pragmatic dunno
I rather think that all troops in the alliance have similar emotions and only wish their masters were as forward thinking but their loyalty to their commanders in chief (whether misplaced or not) prevents them from expressing their true emotions.
Maybe ? who knows, my opinion is based on the views of my comrads in arms on various frontlines around the world, what do you base your opinion on may I ask ?
Gut feeling, plain and simple.
I have no military experience on which to draw :sad:
Sorry
But I do consider myself a good judge of character.
Quote by MidsCouple24
aaaaah no wonder I chose fisherman as one of the jobs I wouldnt want to do, but how does that compare with the armed forces, 60,000 soldiers in a day that equates to 535 years of fishing.

Mids, lets get your facts right. Sixty thousand British soldiers did not die on the first day off the battle of the somme. The sixty thousand people you have misquoted breaks down as follows:
Officers killed: 993
Other Ranks killed: 18,247
Total killed: 19,240
Total casualties (killed, wounded and missing): 57,470
If you would like to provide figures for the number of fishermen that died in 1916 I would welcome the information, however I think it would be a futile search. One thing I will say though is that in this modern health and safety era you cannot compare figures for today's fishing industry to those of a war torn continent almost 100 years ago. To do so would be preposterous.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Is that UK fishermen or is that worldwide ?

My figures were for UK fishermen.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Now this
Agriculture
Engineering
Farming
what is your timescale for deaths in those industries, I gave you timescales for my examples, and those were British casualties, if you are going to do it since those industries began then what are the figures ? and do they compare with the number of soldiers lost in every conflict, war, battle ?
So how many British farmers were killed in 1 day, 11 years and 3 months (the examples I gave you. (you can pick a bad year/day/quarter)

I have been unable to find statistics comparable to the timelines you mentioned for the fishing industry due to the complications caused by a multi agency approach. However I have found a direct comparison year on year for combat related deaths of UK Soldiers in Afghanistan/Iraq (Including those that died of their wounds at a later date)and UK farmers.
UK Soldiers (Afghanistan)
04/05 = 0
05/06 = 1
06/07 = 18
07/08 = 31
08/09 = 41
Total = 91 UK soldiers.
UK Soldiers (Iraq)
04/05 = 20
05/06 = 14
06/07 = 24
07/08 = 29
08/09 = 0
Total = 87 UK Soldiers
Total UK soldiers killed by combat = 178.
UK Farmers
04/05 = 42
05/06 = 34
06/07 = 36
07/08 = 46
08/09 = 25
Total - 183 UK farmers.
I agree that soldiers do a hard job in harsh conditions at times, however there are other jobs not so well recognised for the danger associated to them.
Quote by Trevaunance
aaaaah no wonder I chose fisherman as one of the jobs I wouldnt want to do, but how does that compare with the armed forces, 60,000 soldiers in a day that equates to 535 years of fishing.

Mids, lets get your facts right. Sixty thousand British soldiers did not die on the first day off the battle of the somme. The sixty thousand people you have misquoted breaks down as follows:
Officers killed: 993
Other Ranks killed: 18,247
Total killed: 19,240
Total casualties (killed, wounded and missing): 57,470
OK I got the casualties mixed with the number of confirmed dead but I think you should concede that almost all of the MIA (missing in action) were dead since they havent been found yet. still a bad day by any account.
If you would like to provide figures for the number of fishermen that died in 1916 I would welcome the information, however I think it would be a futile search. One thing I will say though is that in this modern health and safety era you cannot compare figures for today's fishing industry to those of a war torn continent almost 100 years ago. To do so would be preposterous.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Is that UK fishermen or is that worldwide ?

My figures were for UK fishermen.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Now this
Agriculture
Engineering
Farming
what is your timescale for deaths in those industries, I gave you timescales for my examples, and those were British casualties, if you are going to do it since those industries began then what are the figures ? and do they compare with the number of soldiers lost in every conflict, war, battle ?
So how many British farmers were killed in 1 day, 11 years and 3 months (the examples I gave you. (you can pick a bad year/day/quarter)

I have been unable to find statistics comparable to the timelines you mentioned for the fishing industry due to the complications caused by a multi agency approach. However I have found a direct comparison year on year for combat related deaths of UK Soldiers in Afghanistan/Iraq (Including those that died of their wounds at a later date)and UK farmers.
I agree trying to find the number of fishermen killed is surprisingly difficult
UK Soldiers (Afghanistan)
04/05 = 0
05/06 = 1
06/07 = 18
07/08 = 31
08/09 = 41
Total = 91 UK soldiers.
UK Soldiers (Iraq)
04/05 = 20
05/06 = 14
06/07 = 24
07/08 = 29
08/09 = 0
Total = 87 UK Soldiers
Total UK soldiers killed by combat = 178.
UK Farmers
04/05 = 42
05/06 = 34
06/07 = 36
07/08 = 46
08/09 = 25
Total - 183 UK farmers.
I agree that soldiers do a hard job in harsh conditions at times, however there are other jobs not so well recognised for the danger associated to them.
This one shocked me, ask me yesterday and my guess would have been 3-5 killed per year not an average of 39 a year, that really is terribly sad especially as most of the deaths involve slurry pits and is avoidable. doubly shocked because I have family who are farmers albeit working small tennant farms
Quote by MidsCouple24
OK I got the casualties mixed with the number of confirmed dead but I think you should concede that almost all of the MIA (missing in action) were dead since they havent been found yet. still a bad day by any account.

The British forces listed 72,000 men as missing in the somme battlefield area throughout the war and they are all listed on the Thiepval memorial, (which in my opinion is well worth a visit). Around 90% of them were from the Battle of the Somme (1 July - 18 Nov 1916)
The British forces suffered 19,240 dead (including those that died of their wounds at a later date), 35,493 wounded, 2,152 missing and 585 men were taken prisoner by the Germans..
Quote by MidsCouple24
This one shocked me, ask me yesterday and my guess would have been 3-5 killed per year not an average of 39 a year, that really is terribly sad especially as most of the deaths involve slurry pits and is avoidable. doubly shocked because I have family who are farmers albeit working small tennant farms

Only 10% of deaths in agriculture are caused by drowning and asphyxiation. Not all of these will involve slurry stores.
The main causes of death to workers continue to be:
transport (being run over or vehicle overturns) - accounting for 26% of fatalities
falling from a height (through fragile roofs, trees etc) - 16%
struck by moving or falling objects (bales, trees etc) - 16%
asphyxiation/drowning - 10%
livestock-related fatalities - 10%
contact with machinery - 8%
trapped by something collapsing or overturning - 6%
contact with electricity - 3%
Quote by GnV
France of course has run true to form and pulled its troops out of the danger zone 2 days ago and 2 years ahead of the rest of the coalition and are sending them all home this month, nothing unusual there.

A wise choice by France. We should have done the same.
Not so much true to form, but true to their word.
They said they would do it and have. 4 soldiers killed in one day by the very people they were sent there to protect and train.
Sometimes, enough is enough. I watched the pained look on the face of the new President of France and saw the resolve in his eyes to never again have to sit through such a ceremony as he was required to do so soon after taking office.
Let's not get embroiled in an argument about the French being cowardly. They are not. These were brave men who died without cause.
Sometimes, it's more brave to turn away than to die needlessly in a conflict that can never be won.
Am sure many old soldiers will remember our soldiers coming to the aid of France over Nazi Germany GnV. I wonder how many British soldiers died protecting France? Whenever it seems the likes of the UK or in particular NATO want France's help there are always it seems reasons for them to want to back out. Maybe this country should have left France to fend for itself in 1941-1945?
France makes plenty of noise , but history tells us they are all mouth and no trousers.
They were not killed by the people they were sent to protect, you are getting that mixed up with the soldiers killed in NI after troops were initially sent in at the request of the Catholic population fearing more attacks by the Protestant population.
Sadly many British servicemen have been killed by the same method, insurgents dressing in Afghan Police uniforms or Army uniforms posing as such and not as Taliban which is what they actually were.
It is true that many people in this Country do feel let down by the French who ignored all advice given them by the British prior to the invasion by Germany, they had built their Maginot Line and believed it was enough, they dismissed British fears of a 2nd attack through Belgium as the Germans had done in WW1.
When it happened they abondoned the BEF quickly surrendered and many took the side of the Germans against the British and allied forces as Vichy forces, they refused to sink their warships or hand them over to the British culminating in a sad waste of life as the British were forced to remove their threat.
To this day some hate the British for that action, an action against a hostile force who has given their allegience to Germany.
Whilst there were and are many great French subjects who are happy to work with and alongside Britain there seems to be an awfull lot that resent what happened in WWII and go out of their way to make things difficult for us or at the very least will not support us.
Quote by MidsCouple24
They were not killed by the people they were sent to protect, you are getting that mixed up with the soldiers killed in NI after troops were initially sent in at the request of the Catholic population fearing more attacks by the Protestant population.
Sadly many British servicemen have been killed by the same method, insurgents dressing in Afghan Police uniforms or Army uniforms posing as such and not as Taliban which is what they actually were.
It is true that many people in this Country do feel let down by the French who ignored all advice given them by the British prior to the invasion by Germany, they had built their Maginot Line and believed it was enough, they dismissed British fears of a 2nd attack through Belgium as the Germans had done in WW1.
When it happened they abondoned the BEF quickly surrendered and many took the side of the Germans against the British and allied forces as Vichy forces, they refused to sink their warships or hand them over to the British culminating in a sad waste of life as the British were forced to remove their threat.
To this day some hate the British for that action, an action against a hostile force who has given their allegience to Germany.
Whilst there were and are many great French subjects who are happy to work with and alongside Britain there seems to be an awfull lot that resent what happened in WWII and go out of their way to make things difficult for us or at the very least will not support us.

Mids that is total speculation, there is no evidence for the French resenting our part in WWII and we should not hold resentment for theres!
Blimey we are even extending our hate of foreigners to our allies during a world wide conflict today.
What you may be forgetting Jed is the political situation in France at the time.
Whereas the UK had relative political stability, France did not. The 4th Republic was a complete mess, almost hardly a week going by before the Government changed again and/or the President resigned.
Little wonder then Paris capitulated and Petain was given free reign to do the budding of the Reich.
But, there were many brave Frenchmen (and women) for whom this was not good enough.
Quote by Ben_Minx"]Blimey we are even extending our hate of foreigners to our allies during a world wide conflict today.
Quote by MidsCouple24
It is true that many people in this Country do feel let down by the French who ignored all advice given them by the British prior to the invasion by Germany, they had built their Maginot Line and believed it was enough, they dismissed British fears of a 2nd attack through Belgium as the Germans had done in WW1.

Really? Where is your evidence of this?
Quote by MidsCouple24
When it happened they abondoned the BEF quickly surrendered

Hmm, maybe my history knowledge isn't as great as it could be, but I seem to remember that the battle of France culminated in a retreat by the Brtish who were defended by the French at Dunkirk. The figures speak for themselves. British casualties amounted to 68,000, while French losses totalled around 290,000. German casualties, on the other hand, amounted to 27,074 killed and 111,034 wounded. Lets also remember that the last troops to defend at Dunkirk were 40,000 frenchmen who then endured 5 years in a POW camp. That doesnt sound like they abandoned the BEF to me.
Quote by MidsCouple24
To this day some hate the British for that action, an action against a hostile force who has given their allegience to Germany.

Are you able to detect french thinking from Stoke by some kind of mind reading system?