I was just reading the thread about minding other peoples children and when I read a comment from Foxy lady it reminded me of a couple of articles I read not to long back.
Both articles where about the ambulance service. The articles where very similar in that the ambulance service arrived at the scene but where stopped from doing there job by the seniour paramedic due to health and safety issues.
The first incident would have needed the medics to drop into a ditch to treat the casualty. I can't remember the exact height of the ditch but I'm pretty sure it wasn't above 2m. The result of which meant that the casualty drowned in shallow water (inches)! The casualty, If I remember correctly was a father and had more than one child! Come on! I know i'm 6'3" but 2m isn't a big drop for anyone.
The second incident was on the coast I beleive. To get to the casualty would have meant the paramedics would have had to walk through a couple of inches of water. Again the seniour medic wouldn't allow the paramedics to go and treat because they weren't trained for water rescue! In a couple of inches of water! Instead locals had to go and put the person onto a back board, kindly supplied by the ambulance crew, and carry the casualty onto dry land before the paramedics could tend to the person.
Is it just me that thinks that is outrageous? Being in the army we always find a way to overcome problems. On many occasions soldiers put their lives on the line to save others, not just their muckers but people they don't even know. It's just part of our job. Surely it's not asking to much to expect this level of commitment from our emergency services?
Join the most popular community of UK swingers now
Login
Health and Safety gone mad
Before anyone comments on the level of commitment emergency services should show I'm not saying they should blindly put their lives at risk. I mean use a common sense approach. I also understand that they may be bound by health and safety, but I'm sure they wouldn't get the sack for waiding through a bit of water to save someone. I think my point is that some profesions should be ruled by more flexible health and safety rules ie. ultimately it should be down to the person on the ground to make the decision instead of being tied down by rules that were no doubt written up by someone sat behind a nice comfy desk.
Sex God
We get involved in HS&E training at work. What I would say is when people blame Health and Safety for spoiling the school sports day or forcing professionals to not do their job properly, it isn't true. What is actually at fault is either a) an individual's ignorance of what the Health and Safety Executive would allow or b) they are actually afraid of being sued if someone stubs their toe.
If you check out the HSE website it is very clear that in the majority of social/cultural activities all you need is to be aware of potential risks and mitigate sensibly. In more professional situations people in poistions of responsibiltiy are expected to minimise risk to their staff - however this would NEVER require a paramedic to avoid stepping in water unless there was a REAL risk of their drowning.
The HSE really doesn't want people to cancel sports day or make paramedics wear inflatable jackets to cross a puddle.
If you check out the HSE website it is very clear that in the majority of social/cultural activities all you need is to be aware of potential risks and mitigate sensibly. In more professional situations people in poistions of responsibiltiy are expected to minimise risk to their staff - however this would NEVER require a paramedic to avoid stepping in water unless there was a REAL risk of their drowning.
The HSE really doesn't want people to cancel sports day or make paramedics wear inflatable jackets to cross a puddle.
Sex God
I think that Foxy is right 'health and safety' is a convenient excuse... I suspect that sometimes people are actualy bothered about potential compensation claims rather than breaching health and safety regs so it is easier just to blame it on that and not do whatever it is.
Common sense should generally prevail. :thumbup:
Common sense should generally prevail. :thumbup:
Quote by foxylady2209
We get involved in HS&E training at work. What I would say is when people blame Health and Safety for spoiling the school sports day or forcing professionals to not do their job properly, it isn't true. What is actually at fault is either a) an individual's ignorance of what the Health and Safety Executive would allow or b) they are actually afraid of being sued if someone stubs their toe.
If you check out the HSE website it is very clear that in the majority of social/cultural activities all you need is to be aware of potential risks and mitigate sensibly. In more professional situations people in poistions of responsibiltiy are expected to minimise risk to their staff - however this would NEVER require a paramedic to avoid stepping in water unless there was a REAL risk of their drowning.
The HSE really doesn't want people to cancel sports day or make paramedics wear inflatable jackets to cross a puddle.
I know what your saying but I know that when faced with certain factors that their are rules that are to be followed, these rules usualy driven by health and safety. I believe that in these incidents they were following the rules. All beit blindly.
I'd like to think if I was in any of those situations I'd politly tell the Incident Commander where to go and then go about treating the casualty.
Quote by foxylady2209
We get involved in HS&E training at work. What I would say is when people blame Health and Safety for spoiling the school sports day or forcing professionals to not do their job properly, it isn't true. What is actually at fault is either a) an individual's ignorance of what the Health and Safety Executive would allow or b) they are actually afraid of being sued if someone stubs their toe.
If you check out the HSE website it is very clear that in the majority of social/cultural activities all you need is to be aware of potential risks and mitigate sensibly. In more professional situations people in poistions of responsibiltiy are expected to minimise risk to their staff - however this would NEVER require a paramedic to avoid stepping in water unless there was a REAL risk of their drowning.
The HSE really doesn't want people to cancel sports day or make paramedics wear inflatable jackets to cross a puddle.
Maybe not but they sure as hell have not made it any easier.
In fact the " blame " culture has certainly increased, and nowadays why should anybody lay on anything where thee is an element of risk, for as we know there are plenty of lawyers out there ready and waiting to sue ya arse off.
No they do not want anyone to cancel a sports day but the enjoyment factor has been taken away from it, because health and safety wankers have just pushed things way too far, as have the local council.
Schools shut now at the first sign of a snow flake, they never used to.
Councils cancel productions if little Mary is not wearing the correct shoes on stage etc etc.
No they don't want anyone to stop having any fun, as long as everyone follows the one million shit rules you have to follow before you can even pick your nose. I remember Gaunty calling some of them "Health and Safety Na-is".
Another body that thinks they know best and do not think the general public are clever enough to access the risks for themselves.
Great topic that is surrounded by myth. Gaunty shouts about the H&S Nazis and their million and one rules and laws that stop everything. Yet when he is asked to name the "Rule" or "Law" that prevents him or an organisation from doing anything.............he can't. He writes in his column about it but can not back it up with substance. That is why he is a joke in my eyes. If someone is going to state something then they should have the balls to give examples instead of just emotive comments.
Chris, the example you have given should make the individual who made the initial decision hang their head in shame. You are right, a common sense approach to risk assessment would have identified the water is an inch deep so the crew can walk to the injured person. There is no law or rule that stops it.......just individuals that can not think sensibly.
Dave_Notts
In my old job - we stopped taking young people to the beach for a day trip. This was because we had to take a qualified lifeguard with us. We couldn't allow the kids to paddle in the sea without one on hand. What used to be a cheap day trip for us as an organisation having to have a qualified lifeguard made the day more expensive for us (unless we were lucky enough to have a lifeguard working in our organisation) so they eventually stopped. Was a shame as its amazing how many young people haven't been to the seaside or even seen the sea.
We had one member of staff off sick for ages - she had accompanied another project on a day trip to the seaside. All the group were walking along the cliff path responsibly (it wasn't that near to the cliff edge either), the group had stopped to discuss something or other. The worker was stood in front of a small group when the cliff gave way and 6 young people disappeared before her eyes.
Luckily it wasn't that high up and not one of them were hurt, she was so shocked she refused to go on any more trips again. She had nightmares for years about it.
I do agree it is about a common sense approach but I have heard so many horror stories over the years it put me right off giving some trips permission. An yes, I have taken kids home with broken arms (dry slope skiiing mostly) etc... parents have been great in those circumstances (they do realise there is a small risk with some sports).
As with everything in life - accidents do happen and as long as you complete the proper risk assessments, ensuring parents have a copy. Have a home base phone contact to check things out whilst away and staff are equipped and qualified enough to take responsibility and take appropriate actions - ya covered as much as poss.
As a project we took H & S extremely serious and if in any doubt it didn't go ahead. Some of it did seem a bit daft - but at the end of the day I know how I would feel if it was my child that had an accident on a trip. I would want to know that everything had been done to ensure it was safe for all and correct actions had been taken.
The example you gave though Chris is I hope an extreme one - I'm sure they were a few ways they could have checked the depth of water and quickly assessing the situation before any staff member went to the aid of the causality. But - not being in that situation its a hard one... understand where your coming from tho.
We had one member of staff off sick for ages - she had accompanied another project on a day trip to the seaside. All the group were walking along the cliff path responsibly (it wasn't that near to the cliff edge either), the group had stopped to discuss something or other. The worker was stood in front of a small group when the cliff gave way and 6 young people disappeared before her eyes.
Luckily it wasn't that high up and not one of them were hurt, she was so shocked she refused to go on any more trips again. She had nightmares for years about it.
I do agree it is about a common sense approach but I have heard so many horror stories over the years it put me right off giving some trips permission. An yes, I have taken kids home with broken arms (dry slope skiiing mostly) etc... parents have been great in those circumstances (they do realise there is a small risk with some sports).
As with everything in life - accidents do happen and as long as you complete the proper risk assessments, ensuring parents have a copy. Have a home base phone contact to check things out whilst away and staff are equipped and qualified enough to take responsibility and take appropriate actions - ya covered as much as poss.
As a project we took H & S extremely serious and if in any doubt it didn't go ahead. Some of it did seem a bit daft - but at the end of the day I know how I would feel if it was my child that had an accident on a trip. I would want to know that everything had been done to ensure it was safe for all and correct actions had been taken.
The example you gave though Chris is I hope an extreme one - I'm sure they were a few ways they could have checked the depth of water and quickly assessing the situation before any staff member went to the aid of the causality. But - not being in that situation its a hard one... understand where your coming from tho.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Great topic that is surrounded by myth. Gaunty shouts about the H&S Nazis and their million and one rules and laws that stop everything. Yet when he is asked to name the "Rule" or "Law" that prevents him or an organisation from doing anything.............he can't. He writes in his column about it but can not back it up with substance. That is why he is a joke in my eyes. If someone is going to state something then they should have the balls to give examples instead of just emotive comments.
Chris, the example you have given should make the individual who made the initial decision hang their head in shame. You are right, a common sense approach to risk assessment would have identified the water is an inch deep so the crew can walk to the injured person. There is no law or rule that stops it.......just individuals that can not think sensibly.
Dave_Notts
With the second situation I'm lead to believe that if water is involved (lake or whatever) then the paramedics had to be trained in water rescue before they can do anything. If they weren't they had to wait for someone who was or the fire brigade (correct me if I'm wrong). This rule no doubt came from a health and safety assesment. Just like the rule Anais mentioned about the life guard situation. I'm not saying that having someone trained as a life guard is a bad idea I'm just using it as an example where a health and safety assesment was made and a rule, which has to be followed, came out of it.
I can also understand Anais point about the incident with the children and in situations like that then, yes, safety is paramount. Surely when it comes to the emergency services we shouldn't restrict what they can do by imposing rules upon them, thereby restricting what they can and can't do?
Are there any firemen, paramedics or police here to comment? Have you experienced any of these stupid rules or am I talking bollocks??
Quote by Dave__Notts
Great topic that is surrounded by myth. Gaunty shouts about the H&S Nazis and their million and one rules and laws that stop everything. Yet when he is asked to name the "Rule" or "Law" that prevents him or an organisation from doing anything.............he can't. He writes in his column about it but can not back it up with substance. That is why he is a joke in my eyes. If someone is going to state something then they should have the balls to give examples instead of just emotive comments.
Chris, the example you have given should make the individual who made the initial decision hang their head in shame. You are right, a common sense approach to risk assessment would have identified the water is an inch deep so the crew can walk to the injured person. There is no law or rule that stops it.......just individuals that can not think sensibly.
Dave_Notts
Davey as you are no doubt aware, Gaunty was sacked for calling someone a H and S Nazi on his radio show.
The reason was made very clear by him and that was, this council had decided to stop letting smokers adopt kids. This was all about council officials deciding it is against their Health and Safety garbage.
He has given many examples of this over many months on his radio show....you should listen more often.
To say he has no " substance " or no " balls " is sorry matey.....laughable. He writes a column in his news paper thingy but it is his radio show, where he makes his comments on H and S bollocks very clear indeed....maybe he is so clever, some cannot understand what he is saying?
Sex God
So there I was running blindfold down the stairs scissors in hand (and not the nice rounded end ones) bloody health and safety gone mad it was
You can read the myths yourself:
Have a good read.
ALL emergency services have to have risk assessments for the jobs they do. There were lots of insults hurled at the two pcso who "left a boy to drown in a pond because they were not trained".....which ignored the fact that the boy had been dead for many minutes anyway...
In spite of the health and safety at work (etc) act, some 300+ people are killed every year in almost totally avoidable accidents.....many more than that die because of injuries or illness contracted at work. 6000 die a year from asbestosis.....many more than that die from respiratory disease caused by inhaling dust and fume...
I've had my fill of clowns at work who ignore the regulations, and the companies health and safety policy (a legal requirement) and then after they have been injured they trot-off to the solicitors to see if they can get compensation....fortunately MOST of them cannot.
If anyone injures me and it is caused by them ignoring safety in preference for expediency they had better make sure they have a good insurance policy because my union has a VERY good legal team.
Have a good read.
ALL emergency services have to have risk assessments for the jobs they do. There were lots of insults hurled at the two pcso who "left a boy to drown in a pond because they were not trained".....which ignored the fact that the boy had been dead for many minutes anyway...
In spite of the health and safety at work (etc) act, some 300+ people are killed every year in almost totally avoidable accidents.....many more than that die because of injuries or illness contracted at work. 6000 die a year from asbestosis.....many more than that die from respiratory disease caused by inhaling dust and fume...
I've had my fill of clowns at work who ignore the regulations, and the companies health and safety policy (a legal requirement) and then after they have been injured they trot-off to the solicitors to see if they can get compensation....fortunately MOST of them cannot.
If anyone injures me and it is caused by them ignoring safety in preference for expediency they had better make sure they have a good insurance policy because my union has a VERY good legal team.
Chris, using your example as a fact then you are right in someone somewhere has made a decision for their workplace. Is it right? In my opinion it is not as you cannot make a rule for all situations where the risks are not static. This is where competance comes into play. The person who made the original assessment where this "rule" came into being has come to the conclusion how? Did they follow guidance or written advice.......or as I suspect, pulled it out of their bum.
H&S law is the legislation. People banning things in their workplace is company policy and is not binding to other employers.
With all the rambling........I do agree with you Chris
Dave_Notts
H&S law is the legislation. People banning things in their workplace is company policy and is not binding to other employers.
With all the rambling........I do agree with you Chris
Dave_Notts
Quote by kentswingers777
Davey as you are no doubt aware, Gaunty was sacked for calling someone a H and S Nazi on his radio show.
The reason was made very clear by him and that was, this council had decided to stop letting smokers adopt kids. This was all about council officials deciding it is against their Health and Safety garbage.
He has given many examples of this over many months on his radio show....you should listen more often.
To say he has no " substance " or no " balls " is sorry matey.....laughable. He writes a column in his news paper thingy but it is his radio show, where he makes his comments on H and S bollocks very clear indeed....maybe he is so clever, some cannot understand what he is saying?
He is so clever that he does not know the difference between the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 and a company/Council Policy. Fostering kids is not a work activity and is not restricted by any legislation under the Act. Yeah, right clever he I’ll stick to no substance and balls until he shows me what piece of legislation he believes is wrong.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
Did I mention I love the phrase "health and safety gone mad"it always brings a smile to my face.......says so much whilst meaning nothing
Quote by browning
That's the sort of shit health and saftey thats gone mad!
I would kind of agree with you.
That is a shit decision by an employee of a bus company........but nowt to do with health and safety. It is an excuse to not do something so they say it is for health and safety reasons why we can't. I have done a quick trawl of the HSE website and found no reference to push chairs being banned anywhere
Dave_Notts
well...let me say now.....i have a small vested interest as I am involved in risk assesment in my job. Now then all risk assesment is....is basically common sence. However due to the appearance of american style lawyers looking to make money out of accidents....companies now do have to go a little belt and braces on things. Take for example the fact McDonalds got fined as a guy spilt his hot coffee on himself. he was driving his car at the time..and had cup his lap !! Now basic common sence would tell you not to do that surely. It seems not..McDonalds got fined for not informing him, that the coffee was hot !! You will notice on all McDonalds coffee cups now it says...."caution contains hot water". The thing that annoys me for example is now on building sites , you have to wear high viz jackets, stell cap boots, hard hat....and now protective gloves. Now some of the guys are complaining about haveing to wear these gloves......yet these are the damn same people, who should they get as much as a scratch on their little finger...are threatning to sue and are straight down the lawyers office.
Lets not forget people were up in arms when they brought in seat belts as compulsary. but we now accept it as a reasonable safety precaution.
In all the things...risk assesment..and health and safety is about basic common sence !!
Lets not forget people were up in arms when they brought in seat belts as compulsary. but we now accept it as a reasonable safety precaution.
In all the things...risk assesment..and health and safety is about basic common sence !!
On a long train journey last year - nobody could have a hot drink even though they had hot water/tea/coffee etc. They had no bags to put the hot drinks/food in. Luckily I happen to have changed trains an put my last one in the top of my bag (I was being tidy ). The whole carriage I was in used my bag so they could buy a drink.
). The whole carriage I was in used my bag so they could buy a drink. 