Is it a breach of human rights to require someone who wants to live in England to learn English?
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I think not.
I live in France (as many of you already know) and I am totally at ease with the 5th Republic's 2nd Article which says, simply "The language of France is French".
There isn't an equivalent in the UK sadly, (if not only because the UK doesn't have a Constitution) but I do feel nonetheless that the UK Government is right to have expectations about aspiring resident's dealings with it's citizens and officialdom.
For example, I can't expect to go into the local Prefecture to register a car or my local Marie to talk about collection of my rubbish and demand that the fonctionaire speak to me in English, Urdu, Spanish or any other language for that matter. The fonctionaire may well speak English sufficiently fluently to understand what I want to say in my mother tongue but why should they when the 2nd Art. says "The language of France is French"?
I'm not being anti-immigration here; after all, I am an 'immigrant' in my host Country but I do believe that you should respect the traditions of where you want to live and simply learn the language.
As for the fact Mr Chapti is 59 and not able to learn English because of his age is irrelevant IMHO. I'm 60 and I'm constantly improving my French language skills. It's just a matter of will.
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Human Rights - Speaking English
Quote by GnV
Is it a breach of human rights to require someone who wants to live in England to learn English?
no gnv.
the story of this lady i red yesterday and she has been here for i think 15 years and she speeks very very little english herself. at leest make some sort of effort if you are going to live in another country :notes:
but what do we know about the human rights bill. he will be allowed into the country and to join the many thousands of others who live here and opt not to lern the english languuage.
only the courts can decide if that is a right or a wrong thing. i think they should at leest try and lern whilst they are living does nothing to help peeple intigrate into society except possibly there own.
I would say that the same applies in the UK G. If someone goes to a Local Authority (Is that similar to a Prefecture?) they will be helped in as much that if they can get across to the person what they want i.e. it could be that they wanted to complain about their bin collection, then they would be handed a leaflet in their own language (if it was a common one.....including Welsh!!!!). That is it. The onus is on the customer to be understood by the LA. For example they could bring a friend or a translator. When there is a legal requirement to provide a translator then the LA will provide a translator, e.g. under PACE interview.
I didn't know about the new rules. Do they apply to a multi-billionairre buying a football team? Or does money get around this rule?
Dave_Notts
I didn't know about the new rules. Do they apply to a multi-billionairre buying a football team? Or does money get around this rule?
Dave_Notts
Effectively the counsel for the the UK spouse is saying that it is indirect discrimination to require him to speak English.
Quite honestly this is another example of Human Rights Act being distorted out of all proportions, it is important to remember that the reason that the HRA came into existence at all was because of the atrocities in WW2, and at the time it was put together it could not have possibly been within the foresight of the lawmakers that it would be used in this way.
It is not unreasonable to expect a person applying for citizenship to have a basic grasp of the language of their host country, and it cannot be allowed to be tantamount to breaching the Right to A Family Life aspect of the HRA to require it, solely on the grounds that the Indian based spouse has not had the opportunity to learn English.
If there is any case to answer, it is a case for the Indian authorities who have precluded the Indian based spouse from learning English - given that a basic grasp of the language is required for immigration.
... Oh... hang on... there are millions of native Indians who can speak better English than an Old Etonian - so that cannot be true.
It might be the case that the Indian based spouse simply could not be arsed to learn it, and the UK based spouse is looking for an easy option by trying to break a new legal loophole.
It cannot be allowed to happen - if you find an exception for one rule in immigration then you can make a case for others, to argue otherwise truly is discrimination.
Quite honestly this is another example of Human Rights Act being distorted out of all proportions, it is important to remember that the reason that the HRA came into existence at all was because of the atrocities in WW2, and at the time it was put together it could not have possibly been within the foresight of the lawmakers that it would be used in this way.
It is not unreasonable to expect a person applying for citizenship to have a basic grasp of the language of their host country, and it cannot be allowed to be tantamount to breaching the Right to A Family Life aspect of the HRA to require it, solely on the grounds that the Indian based spouse has not had the opportunity to learn English.
If there is any case to answer, it is a case for the Indian authorities who have precluded the Indian based spouse from learning English - given that a basic grasp of the language is required for immigration.
... Oh... hang on... there are millions of native Indians who can speak better English than an Old Etonian - so that cannot be true.
It might be the case that the Indian based spouse simply could not be arsed to learn it, and the UK based spouse is looking for an easy option by trying to break a new legal loophole.
It cannot be allowed to happen - if you find an exception for one rule in immigration then you can make a case for others, to argue otherwise truly is discrimination.
Quote by GnV
There isn't an equivalent in the UK sadly, (if not only because the UK doesn't have a Constitution)
The UK does have a constitution, but an unwritten one that is more concerned with how the fundmentals of the state interact with each other moreover than the specific laws regarding immigration.
Until the laws are enforced equitably though, it doesn't really matter whether the UK has a constitution or not. Any body of rules is only as effective as those people who are prepared to play by them.
Quote by HimandHer
There isn't an equivalent in the UK sadly, (if not only because the UK doesn't have a Constitution)
The UK does have a constitution, but an unwritten one that is more concerned with how the fundmentals of the state interact with each other moreover than the specific laws regarding immigration.
Until the laws are enforced equitably though, it doesn't really matter whether the UK has a constitution or not. Any body of rules is only as effective as those people who are prepared to play by them.
I guess I should have said a 'bill of rights' to be more specific
Quote by Dave
I would say that the same applies in the UK G. If someone goes to a Local Authority (Is that similar to a Prefecture?) they will be helped in as much that if they can get across to the person what they want i.e. it could be that they wanted to complain about their bin collection, then they would be handed a leaflet in their own language (if it was a common one.....including Welsh!!!!). That is it. The onus is on the customer to be understood by the LA. For example they could bring a friend or a translator. When there is a legal requirement to provide a translator then the LA will provide a translator, e.g. under PACE interview.
The appointment of a Prefect is in the gift of the President and is the Government's representative in a Department (roughly equating to a County), so broadly, you could make a comparison to a LA except that LA's are semi-autonomous and has elected representatives whereas the Prefect simply carries out the will of the State. The function of the prefect is the Prefecture. A better comparison might be in the days of the Empire and now the Commonwealth, the Governor of a UK territory appointed (in theory at least) by the Sovereign. There are elected councils in France as well as the two Parliamentary houses, but they perform a different functions.
The whole of France was divided into 'territories' or Departments (including the overseas territories) by Napoleon and this structure still exists today.
The fonctionaire is not quite so tolerant though as an employee in your basic LA. A Gaelic shrug is the best you can expect here if you will not or cannot address the issue in the French language and little sympathy exists for those who will not embrace the language.
Sex God
The French have a notoriously prescriptive attitude to their language though.
There are many linguists who... nah, not nearly provocative enough for you folk in here. I'll shut up.
There are many linguists who... nah, not nearly provocative enough for you folk in here. I'll shut up.
If the lady in question wants a family life, go and move back to india to be with her husband.
He only wants to come here because he's getting old and wants the use of the benifits system/health service.
And the wifes claim is being funded by the tax payer.
The countrys turned into a joke, and I despair for the future of it.
He only wants to come here because he's getting old and wants the use of the benifits system/health service.
And the wifes claim is being funded by the tax payer.
The countrys turned into a joke, and I despair for the future of it.
Sex God
Quote by HimandHer
*snips*
Interesting read. Not sure counsel makes a good argument either. The fact that the broadly applied language requirement poses particular challenges for some communities in no way constitutes racially discriminatory targetting. It can't be said that the broadly applied rule is designed to target anyone. It's not the same thing. It just doesn't follow.
N
Sex God
You want to live here? You speak English. Obviously people who are in reality unable to speak Engish will need some support. But being to lazy to learn it isn't being unable. The deaf, dumb and those with severe motor problems will need support. But otherwise - mentally get off your lazy arse and LEARN THE LANGUAGE.
I work in Germany on and off and speak enough to get by (fed, transport, housed, shagged) but we have managers who spend minimum 3 months livign there and rely 100% on their secretaries (who are German or English but always bi-lingual) for all dealings with German speakers. Frankly it's embarassing and, if I were their boss, I would give them 3 months to learn the lingo (before they go abroad) and then show them the door.
I work in Germany on and off and speak enough to get by (fed, transport, housed, shagged) but we have managers who spend minimum 3 months livign there and rely 100% on their secretaries (who are German or English but always bi-lingual) for all dealings with German speakers. Frankly it's embarassing and, if I were their boss, I would give them 3 months to learn the lingo (before they go abroad) and then show them the door.
Quote by foxylady2209
You want to live here? You speak English. Obviously people who are in reality unable to speak Engish will need some support. But being to lazy to learn it isn't being unable. The deaf, dumb and those with severe motor problems will need support. But otherwise - mentally get off your lazy arse and LEARN THE LANGUAGE.
I work in Germany on and off and speak enough to get by (fed, transport, housed, shagged) but we have managers who spend minimum 3 months livign there and rely 100% on their secretaries (who are German or English but always bi-lingual) for all dealings with German speakers. Frankly it's embarassing and, if I were their boss, I would give them 3 months to learn the lingo (before they go abroad) and then show them the door.
you are one of the very few on here who actually talks a lot of sence all of the time when posting.
i do wish others would learn from this poster :grin:
Sex God
One of the regular tips all holiday brochures, guides and travel companies mention is trying to learn a little of the language of the country that you are visiting. OK you are only going for a few weeks usually, however the local population appreciate you've at least tried to make an effort, however poorly/faulteringly, and they'll usually try and be patient and help you. (Just like we do with visitors to the UK).
Obviously moving to another country is different, as you'll be spending your life there with another culture, laws, social norms, and language. Therefore it's gonna be pretty imperative that you at least try and learn the local language and customs, so think about where you are going to live and work.
For most of the UK, then english will be fine, however for some parts of the country it's probably useful to try and learn, 'please', 'thank you', 'hello' and 'goodbye' in the local language, e.g. parts of Wales it'll be welsh and parts of Scotland it'll be Gaelic so as to get by/on with your new friends and neighbours.
GnV is quite right concerning the French. This is the one language that has replaced the multiple local languages that were spoken, probably the major one that survives being Basque although french is the official language for virtually everything. Try living in France and not learning french and you'll really struggle, the same being true for many countries in Europe never mind further afield.
Obviously moving to another country is different, as you'll be spending your life there with another culture, laws, social norms, and language. Therefore it's gonna be pretty imperative that you at least try and learn the local language and customs, so think about where you are going to live and work.
For most of the UK, then english will be fine, however for some parts of the country it's probably useful to try and learn, 'please', 'thank you', 'hello' and 'goodbye' in the local language, e.g. parts of Wales it'll be welsh and parts of Scotland it'll be Gaelic so as to get by/on with your new friends and neighbours.
GnV is quite right concerning the French. This is the one language that has replaced the multiple local languages that were spoken, probably the major one that survives being Basque although french is the official language for virtually everything. Try living in France and not learning french and you'll really struggle, the same being true for many countries in Europe never mind further afield.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
You want to live here? You speak English. Obviously people who are in reality unable to speak Engish will need some support. But being to lazy to learn it isn't being unable. The deaf, dumb and those with severe motor problems will need support. But otherwise - mentally get off your lazy arse and LEARN THE LANGUAGE.
I work in Germany on and off and speak enough to get by (fed, transport, housed, shagged) but we have managers who spend minimum 3 months livign there and rely 100% on their secretaries (who are German or English but always bi-lingual) for all dealings with German speakers. Frankly it's embarassing and, if I were their boss, I would give them 3 months to learn the lingo (before they go abroad) and then show them the door.
you are one of the very few on here who actually talks a lot of sence all of the time when posting.
i do wish others would learn from this poster :grin:
Awwww. Can I reference you on my CV? Not sure about the address though - Current Affairs Thread, Swinging Heaven. Not sure about that. LOL
It is wrong to enforce a law demanding that immigrants learn English.
what timescale would such a law use ?
why is it wrong ..... because when we call upon other nations to fight in the British Army we do not insist on thier ability to speak English and quite rightly so.
Indians died in thier thousands fighting for Britain during the 2nd world war, especially in Italian campaign.
Very few Ghurkas speak English but fight for us in Afghanistan and fought for us in the Falklands Campaign and every other war for countless years.
the Polish were our first allies during the Crimean war.
American Indians helped us during the war of independance.
There are countless cases of Foreign Nationals fighting for this country it would be wrong of us to have a rule for one scenario and not another.
I spent many years as a migrant worker in Switzerland and I did not have to learn the language (though I did) I spent 6 years living in Germany as a British Soldier on NATO duties but did not have to learn the language (i did but again personal choice)
The ramifications of such a law could be bad.
we have politicians in the welsh office who dont speak welsh !
what timescale would such a law use ?
why is it wrong ..... because when we call upon other nations to fight in the British Army we do not insist on thier ability to speak English and quite rightly so.
Indians died in thier thousands fighting for Britain during the 2nd world war, especially in Italian campaign.
Very few Ghurkas speak English but fight for us in Afghanistan and fought for us in the Falklands Campaign and every other war for countless years.
the Polish were our first allies during the Crimean war.
American Indians helped us during the war of independance.
There are countless cases of Foreign Nationals fighting for this country it would be wrong of us to have a rule for one scenario and not another.
I spent many years as a migrant worker in Switzerland and I did not have to learn the language (though I did) I spent 6 years living in Germany as a British Soldier on NATO duties but did not have to learn the language (i did but again personal choice)
The ramifications of such a law could be bad.
we have politicians in the welsh office who dont speak welsh !
Sex God
Poor analogy I think Mids? Taking just one of them, a British Army base in Germany is essentially a closed English speaking community, in which there is no expectation that you'd need to know how to speak German to do what's required of you and get by. It's apples and oranges.
As for Wales, given that English is still the de facto official language, pretty much all Welsh speakers being equally, if not more fluent in English, there's no requirement that anyone, politicians included, actually speak Welsh to be able to fully and actively participate either. The only requirement as of last year is that the Welsh language be recognised as a second, equal official language, and services be provided for speakers of it.
N x x x ;)
As for Wales, given that English is still the de facto official language, pretty much all Welsh speakers being equally, if not more fluent in English, there's no requirement that anyone, politicians included, actually speak Welsh to be able to fully and actively participate either. The only requirement as of last year is that the Welsh language be recognised as a second, equal official language, and services be provided for speakers of it.
N x x x ;)
ok ...... but asking them to die for Britain no matter how good thier command of the British Language is ?
will we refuse the help of the Ghurkas because most of them cannot speak English ? are we going to disband them and send them home ?
If we need the help of our Commonwealth Countries in times of conflict (last called upon in 1982 to assist with the Falklands Campaign) will we insist they only send forces that can speak English or will we once again welcome thier help to put thier lives at risk for us whilst pointing out that they are not welcome here in peacefull circumstances unless they speak English
will we refuse the help of the Ghurkas because most of them cannot speak English ? are we going to disband them and send them home ?
If we need the help of our Commonwealth Countries in times of conflict (last called upon in 1982 to assist with the Falklands Campaign) will we insist they only send forces that can speak English or will we once again welcome thier help to put thier lives at risk for us whilst pointing out that they are not welcome here in peacefull circumstances unless they speak English
Sex God
Are we arguing that dying (for any cause) is less of a challenge than learning a langauge? OK in practical terms it takes no effort to get shot. But I'm talking about percieved value. I'm not sure th Ghurkas don't speak English anyway. Their commanding officers are generally English, and using translators in the field isn;t always possible.
Let's turn this around - A person will die for this country but won't learn it's language? That doesn't make sense.
Let's turn this around - A person will die for this country but won't learn it's language? That doesn't make sense.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
:thumbup:
can i make love to you foxy while mrs star watches pleese
With pleasure - just at these temperatures you have to do it without actually touching me. LOL
Quote by foxylady2209
Are we arguing that dying (for any cause) is less of a challenge than learning a langauge? OK in practical terms it takes no effort to get shot. But I'm talking about percieved value. I'm not sure th Ghurkas don't speak English anyway. Their commanding officers are generally English, and using translators in the field isn;t always possible.
Let's turn this around - A person will die for this country but won't learn it's language? That doesn't make sense.
A person will die for this country but not learn the language. Like Mids said, they have done it for years. The trouble with language can be a problem though, as in the Falklands a Gurkha Officer told one of his Gurkhas that "Nobody comes down the road", that was the order. An hour later a British Officer radios and asks the Gurkha Officer to tell his Gurkha to let his platoon pass as they are on the same side
The order had to be re-said but changed to "No enemy comes down the road".The Gurkhas are supposed to speak a basic English.........but whoever sets the exam sets it really low as the ones I spoke to had a very small grasp of English. As they progress through time served their English does get better.
Gurkha Officers used to always be British or Indian Army, but the Nepalese can now get a commission so are led by their own countrymen. Only two armies have Gurkhas and that is the British Army and the Indian Army. That is one soldier I would prefer to fight on our side than to fight against........so I couldn't care less if they spoke English or not, just never give them up.
As for the debate, are we also saying that foreign nationals are not allowed to invest in this country if they cannot speak English? They shouldn't be able to set up factories, employee English people, etc?
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
I think this is all perfectly clear, there`s no point in skirting around the obvious.
If you are going to be an asset to this country and/or can provide your own teams of translators etc then you are welcome.
If you are potentially going to be a burden on the social services, you are required to speak English .......for the advantages on offer it sounds like a small price to pay.
So Sasha (my partner)1 is an Interpreteur, born in Russia with a Russian father and Lithuanian Mother she has lived in this Country for 16 years during which time she has never drawn any form of social security benefits, she pays her council tax and income tax, speaking 6 eastern european languages having a National Insurance Number and UK issued E111 card she is an imigrant to this country who earns her living doing a job that not many British born subjects could do but other immigrants keep her in work as an interpreteur, so even the non English speaking visitors and immigrants can provide work for British people and those that have chosen to make thier life here as opposed to sponge here, kinda catch 22 situation, food for thought. How close is your nearest Polish food shop, not far I am guessing. finding work in Britain but not for British subjects.
Then you have ASDA, I love ASDA but will no longer purchase meat from them as one of thier major suppliers who are based in the UK will not emply anyone who cannot speak polish.
Quote by MidsCouple24
Then you have ASDA, I love ASDA but will no longer purchase meat from them as one of thier major suppliers who are based in the UK will not emply anyone who cannot speak polish.
I have 2 points to clarify: Is that true or is it what you have heard to be true?
If it is true that they will only employ Polish speaking personnel, then it may be the case that speaking Polish is a genuine occupational requirement for the job. The job may require travel to Poland or intitmate contact with a Poland-based part of the company. Do you know that is not the case? If it is not the case then they are probably in breach of some branch of employment law or the Race Relations act - in any event I am not sure that the lack of your custom will make any difference to them.
If it true that they are a major supplier to ASDA then they are also probably supplying Lidl, Aldi, Tesco, Sainsbury, Waitrose etc etc (either one or all of them). Are you going to write to Companies House to acquire the details of the information manager and make a request under the FOI to have them disclose any other high-street chain with whom they have contractual undertakings?
It is a noble effort to not support causes (people, companies, protests) where you believe there is a fundamental flaw, but in all fairness you are probably just seeing yourself off.
Sex God
There is of course a much better reason for not shopping at Asda ..... they're owned by Walmart a notoriously oppressive employer
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
There is of course a much better reason for not shopping at Asda ..... they're owned by Walmart a notoriously oppressive employer
i bet you say that about all the employers.
care to enlighten us all as to why they are, and why they are worse than any other employer?
one bad employer equates to yet another bad employer eh mr stagggers? or do you put every employer in that spot?
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
There is of course a much better reason for not shopping at Asda ..... they're owned by Walmart a notoriously oppressive employer
i bet you say that about all the employers.
care to enlighten us all as to why they are, and why they are worse than any other employer?
one bad employer equates to yet another bad employer eh mr stagggers? or do you put every employer in that spot?
thank you ever so much mr staggers for your wiki link 
a lot of interesting stuff in there.
" activists sometimes oppose the new store and attempt to block its construction ". says it all reely the same kind of activists that are at work in london boroughs at the moment
i could of course supply a link to current employment laws which i am sure a huge company like this would adhere to, no? like minimum wages and working hours.
maybe though this company like a lot of others make there staff work in near dark conditions with 50p an hour wages. next some will say that some employers still send children down the mines as well.
i thought employment laws stopped alot of the middle age treatment, if not then the unions are not doing there jobs in protecting there members :dunno:
a lot of interesting stuff in there.
" activists sometimes oppose the new store and attempt to block its construction ". says it all reely the same kind of activists that are at work in london boroughs at the moment
i could of course supply a link to current employment laws which i am sure a huge company like this would adhere to, no? like minimum wages and working hours.
maybe though this company like a lot of others make there staff work in near dark conditions with 50p an hour wages. next some will say that some employers still send children down the mines as well.
i thought employment laws stopped alot of the middle age treatment, if not then the unions are not doing there jobs in protecting there members :dunno:
Sex God
You will of course also have noted that Walmart is the U.S. arm of the cororation where the employment laws are somewhat different...obviously you read of the disproportionate number of lawsuits brought against them for breaking those laws , you also I'm sure read of their breeches of the U.S. child labour laws , and their use of third world sweat shops as suppliers
Walmart are to many the unacceptable face of capitalism ,that they are entering U.K. markets should ring alarm bells in all our heads
Walmart are to many the unacceptable face of capitalism ,that they are entering U.K. markets should ring alarm bells in all our heads