They may occur in the same (twisted) mindset, but they aren't the same thing. Nor do they have to always go together. I think you are right about the casual link between fascists we are familiar with and their policies that end up being racist (or culturist) too. I wouldn't invite either to dinner.
I agree with No2, you can be a facist without being a racist, it is all about power, true AHitler hated the jews, but that wasnt really racist, he hated jews from all races. He was racist against eastern europeans (as we know them now) he did believe Russians to be a sub human race and back then Russians were Albanians, Lithuanians etc. Pohl Pott on the other hand simply killed his own people as did Stalin with no thought of race entering the equation, their targets were simply people within their own nations that they thought might be a threat to their power. Idi Amin and many others fall under that category. Mussolini simply wanted more power and land he didnt care who or where it came from his facist regime simply wanted more. Personally I dont think being a facist has anything to do with being racist though some facist dicatators have used race to give power to their cause, blame the jews, blame the blacks, blame the red indians, basically just pick on the less popular minority within your nation and use that to stir up support for yourselves whilst stirring up hatred for towards them and get the people behind you. Argentina used the Falklands invasion to get the Nation behind a Dictatorship that was failing rapidly, suddenly the out of control inflation was forgotton, the Nations problems were forgotton, the people got behind the dictator. I think this shows that Dictators just look for a good cause to get the people behind them, sometime they choose, race, sometimes religion, sometimes just land ownership.
I agree facisim and racism are two different things but due to media reporting the lines between the two can get somewhat blurred. I personally while never agreeing with mr Dicanios political views always respected him as he stood up for his beliefs and wore his heart on his sleeve. Now that he is in a position much more in the limelight he seems to be backtracking a bit at which i do not agree . Wether i like your political stance or not i,ll respect your right to have it what i wont respect is when you try to hide/change it to get yourself out of trouble
I think its a thin line.....fascism....is not exactly racist ....but almost every time ends up with the leader wanting do ethic cleanse the country !! If de Canio is a fascist, then he at the very least holds extreme right wing views. Though I strongly oppose those views, I would fight for his right to hold them, so long as within the law. However the views would not go down well, in a quite left wing Sunderland !! He would do well, to keep well out of politics and keep his mind on football. Sunderland should just about survive by skin of their teeth.....but they have employed a very loose cannon in De Canio......I think they may well live to regret it.
Now this hand signal is synonymous with a certain Adolf Hitler. Now we all know he was a Fascist but also a huge racist. He murdered millions of people because of their race and their sexual orientation. This picture depicts very clearly to all except the most dumb in society, that this is him without a shadow of a doubt using a openly racist gesture. Italy's football supporters and many Italian's openly are racist.
Is there really any difference in the two pictures? He is Italian and racism is rife in Italian football.
Pretty clear cut to me and no wonder David Miliband quit the club, as on the evidence he really had very little choice. Yes Paolo Di Canio is certainly guilty of using a racist gesture, does that make him an open racist though? Probably yes it does.
Quote by stars arse Is there really any difference in the two pictures?
Of course there is a difference. The photographers art is to capture a picture which will make him money - sometimes lots of it - and the picture you have chosen to publish in this thread is only there to suit your nefarious purposes. For all I know, he could have been gesticulating his position to the pizza deliver boy (particularly as his hand is raised significantly) as opposed to some dodgy fascist pose. In the case of the picture of the Fuehrer of course, totally different. The picture is in context, he is dressed in his customary uniform and clearly making his trademark gesture which sent a chill down the spines of even his own followers.
Quote by stars arse Is there really any difference in the two pictures?
Quote by GnV Of course there is a difference.
Is there?
Quote by GnV The photographers art is to capture a picture which will make him money - sometimes lots of it - and the picture you have chosen to publish in this thread is only there to suit your nefarious purposes. For all I know, he could have been gesticulating his position to the pizza deliver boy (particularly as his hand is raised significantly) as opposed to some dodgy fascist pose.
For all YOU know ? Well with regards to the picture I published, very fecking little obviously. This picture was taken in 2005 and caused an outcry while playing in Italy he gave a Nazi style straight armed salute to the notoriously thuggish Ultras who follow Rome side Lazio. I suggest you have a little Google with regards to the Ultras GnV as you obviously have not got a single clue as to who they are or what they stand for. I know you have a view on most things, and invariably with very little knowledge. So to save you the time. Never too old to learn GnV.
Quote by GnV In the case of the picture of the Fuehrer of course, totally different. The picture is in context, he is dressed in his customary uniform and clearly making his trademark gesture which sent a chill down the spines of even his own followers.
No it is not. Both pictures are of people who have used a straight armed salute to depict who they are and what they believe in. The people who use the salute are indeed different as Hitler carried out his ideologies, and Di Canio would just like too. Stars arse indeed. :rotflmao::rotflmao: Anything else you are unsure of with the forgetful memory, don't be afraid to ask mate. :thumbup:
Quote by starlightcouple Now this hand signal is synonymous with a certain Adolf Hitler. Now we all know he was a Fascist but also a huge racist. He murdered millions of people because of their race and their sexual orientation. This picture depicts very clearly to all except the most dumb in society, that this is him without a shadow of a doubt using a openly racist gesture. Italy's football supporters and many Italian's openly are racist.
No wonder people have the views they do, can anyone blame them?
Is there really any difference in the two pictures? He is Italian and racism is rife in Italian football.
Pretty clear cut to me and no wonder David Miliband quit the club, as on the evidence he really had very little choice. Yes Paolo Di Canio is certainly guilty of using a racist gesture, does that make him an open racist though? Probably yes it does.
Surely the Nazis (Nationalsts) invented that particular salute? That makes it a fascist salute, not specifically racist. Your line "He is Italian and racism is rife in Italian football." Seems to imply that since he is Italian and Italian football has a lot of racists that he is, be that definition alone, a racist. That doesn't work. I am an engineer, the vast majority of engineers are men therefore I am also a man? Hardly. Dodgy logic at best. That person in the first picture may or may not be a racist - the image is clearly of a Nazi salute, especially if you take his facial expression into account, but even then does it mean he is a believer in the Nazi mind-set, a true fascist? Or does it mean he is just an ignorant, testosterone-driven, berk who thought it made him look tough?
Quote by stars arse I suggest you have a little Google with regards to the Ultras GnV as you obviously have not got a single clue as to who they are or what they stand for.
Quote by stars arse I suggest you have a little Google with regards to the Ultras GnV as you obviously have not got a single clue as to who they are or what they stand for.
Quote by GnV Frankly, I don't give a shit
Well then as
Quote by Flower why bother to post ?
Obviously to just have a go at me I would presume.:giggle:
Quote by foxylady2209 Surely the Nazis (Nationalsts) invented that particular salute? That makes it a fascist salute, not specifically racist. Your line "He is Italian and racism is rife in Italian football." Seems to imply that since he is Italian and Italian football has a lot of racists that he is, be that definition alone, a racist. That doesn't work. I am an engineer, the vast majority of engineers are men therefore I am also a man? Hardly. Dodgy logic at best. That person in the first picture may or may not be a racist - the image is clearly of a Nazi salute, especially if you take his facial expression into account, but even then does it mean he is a believer in the Nazi mind-set, a true fascist? Or does it mean he is just an ignorant, testosterone-driven, berk who thought it made him look tough?
I shall point you in that same direction as GnV with regards to who he was saluting to, and what they stand for in the link. If you still think there was no harm in it, then nothing more to add. But many symbols mean only one thing no matter how you paint the picture.
Does this actuality mean " fuck you " or I am going to the shops to buy " one " pint of milk? It is obvious what it means but I suppose if you had a very vivid imagination it could mean anything to anyone.
But AH was not racist, not as we see racism, he simply hated Jews and Jews are from every nationality, he simply wanted power, to rule the world, he hated homosexuals and gypsies who also come from all nations. He believed the insane and old were a burden on resources so was happy to put them on the etermination list albeit at a lower priority to jews and gypsies. He believed people from Russia were sub human but they were black, white, eastern and anything else available, or so he preached but we all know he just wanted Russian oilfields and resources so told his followers whatever they wanted to hear. The Master Race couldn't murder sub humans just simply put them out of their misery. He was a facist but so was Italys Mussolini which is more likely where De Canio gets his facist ideals from. If you want to discuss mass racism let's talk about the USA especially the South the KKK and the NRA.
Quote by starlightcouple I suggest you have a little Google with regards to the Ultras GnV as you obviously have not got a single clue as to who they are or what they stand for.
Quote by GnV Frankly, I don't give a shit
Well then as
Quote by Flower why bother to post ?
Obviously to just have a go at me I would presume.:giggle: Talking through your arse, as usual star :lol2: You should win an award for the most appropriate avatar :haha:
Quote by starlightcouple But many symbols mean only one thing no matter how you paint the picture.
Does this actuality mean " fuck you " or I am going to the shops to buy " one " pint of milk? It is obvious what it means but I suppose if you had a very vivid imagination it could mean anything to anyone.
You being bi-curious star, it could mean 'up your arse'
Talking through your arse, as usual star :lol2: You should win an award for the most appropriate avatar :haha:
Remind me again GnV.............which cheek is yours again? :bounce: I worry about you star.. you take too much an interest in another man's arse :lol2:
Quote by GnV I worry about you star.. you take too much an interest in another man's arse :lol2:
You're safe GnV...........I only go for younger guys, they have much tighter arses and don't droop to the floor. Not for a second suggesting yours does though btw. :giggle:
Fascists would have you believe that theirs is a considered set of political beliefs rather than a knee jerk xenophobic reaction against anyone from a different culture or ethnic background.... but that's just bollocks .... of course fascists are racists.... if it looks like a duck waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck ..... it's a duck .. however much it might like to pretend it's a swan!
Quote by Green_Fox_71 Fascists would have you believe that theirs is a considered set of political beliefs rather than a knee jerk xenophobic reaction against anyone from a different culture or ethnic background.... but that's just bollocks .... of course fascists are racists.... if it looks like a duck waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck ..... it's a duck .. however much it might like to pretend it's a swan!
Could you give me some examples of the Facists you speak about, let us start with two of the most infamous ....... Adolf Hitlet and Benito Mussolini. Which races do you think they were racist against and why ? If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck ..... it's a duck, unless of course it is made of metal and plastic and used by duck hunters to lure real ducks into the area.
Jed Are you suggesting that AH and BM were not racists because they hated everybody equally? AH: I hate all Jews whether black or white therefore i am not a racist? BM: I'm with mate .. and I hate all Gypsy whether they come from Poland or Romania or Serbia or Albania.. and because my hatred is so "pure" i am not a racist either Gotta admit to having some difficulty following your logic on this one Jed.
Fascists do not have to be racist and not all racists are fascist. But beware of confusing Nazism with Fascism. Nazism is extremely racist, superior white race etc. Funnily enough this was the mindset of the majority of the British Elite & Middle Classes pre collapse of the Raj. We weren't fascist though, but were certainly racist.
Quote by Green_Fox_71 Jed Are you suggesting that AH and BM were not racists because they hated everybody equally? AH: I hate all Jews whether black or white therefore i am not a racist? BM: I'm with mate .. and I hate all Gypsy whether they come from Poland or Romania or Serbia or Albania.. and because my hatred is so "pure" i am not a racist either Gotta admit to having some difficulty following your logic on this one Jed.
Absolutely, he was quite happy with many people from most races, his Afrika Corps recruited Black africans, his SS recruited Russians, Albanians, Romanians and whoever else would join his fight for power, land and the Master Race. Racism is exactly that, hatred and persecution of someone because of their race, the German Jews were treated no differently to the Polish Jews his hatred and persecution of Jews did not consider ethnic nationalities, Black, White, Asian they were just Jews to him. BM just wanted land and power so yes did whatever his mate asked of him. AH did believe in a Master Race which could be described as a form of racism but for him that was the "ideal German" a blonde haired muscle bound superior being, anyone else was just inferior no matter what their colour, nationality or even religion providing they were not Jewish because Jews in his mind were not human. You cannot confuse racism with the hatred of a religious community or religious beliefs, that is a hatred just as destructive but totally different. Adolf Hitler was not Racist he was Xenophobic, which is far worse than being racist since it means that up against a Xenophobic your race will not necessarily make you a target but equally it will not protect you from the xeonphobics as was the case for black and white jews, German or other.
I suppose we could go down the path of questioning whether being a jew is to be a member of a religion or a race ... (I would say both) Jed I can accept your right to hold your view but i can not agree m8 - Hitler was a racist pure and simple...
Quote by MidsCouple24 Jed Are you suggesting that AH and BM were not racists because they hated everybody equally? AH: I hate all Jews whether black or white therefore i am not a racist? BM: I'm with mate .. and I hate all Gypsy whether they come from Poland or Romania or Serbia or Albania.. and because my hatred is so "pure" i am not a racist either Gotta admit to having some difficulty following your logic on this one Jed.
Absolutely, he was quite happy with many people from most races, his Afrika Corps recruited Black africans, his SS recruited Russians, Albanians, Romanians and whoever else would join his fight for power, land and the Master Race. Racism is exactly that, hatred and persecution of someone because of their race, the German Jews were treated no differently to the Polish Jews his hatred and persecution of Jews did not consider ethnic nationalities, Black, White, Asian they were just Jews to him. BM just wanted land and power so yes did whatever his mate asked of him. AH did believe in a Master Race which could be described as a form of racism but for him that was the "ideal German" a blonde haired muscle bound superior being, anyone else was just inferior no matter what their colour, nationality or even religion providing they were not Jewish because Jews in his mind were not human. You cannot confuse racism with the hatred of a religious community or religious beliefs, that is a hatred just as destructive but totally different. Adolf Hitler was not Racist he was Xenophobic, which is far worse than being racist since it means that up against a Xenophobic your race will not necessarily make you a target but equally it will not protect you from the xeonphobics as was the case for black and white jews, German or other. So mids by your definition...if someobe says they hate all blacks.....disregarding if they are from Africa, Jamica or Birmingham or Bradford....then he is not racist because he not choseing one race !!!
Quote by starlightcouple Which races do you think they were racist against and why ?
Is that a serious question Mids? He persecuted the Jews and killed millions of them so how on Earth is that not a racist thing to do? What race do you have to be, to be Jewish ? What race do you have to be, to be Christian ? What race do you have to be to be Catholic ? Religion has nothing to do with Race, Jews, Christians, Catholic come in all forms, black, white, asian. He was Xenophobic, people are confusing hatred of ones religious beliefs with racism. There are some that hate Muslims, how popular is that religion in the middle east, popular yes, but it is also popular all over the world, from the former Yugoslavia to the depths of Africa. Xenophobia is a dislike or fear of people from other countries or of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange, black, white, asian it is not the colour or the race it is the outsider that is hated. To AH Jews were strange, to be despised, hated and killed. Go to the deep south of the USA, A black African will be treated totally different to a White South African, a White South African would not be welcomed in Harlem as a Black person might be. That my friends is racism, Rio Ferdinand plays for England yet is often subjected to racist taunts by English fans when he plays at club level.
You may be right to question whether being a Christian makes you a member of a race ditto whether being a Roman Catholic or for that matter a Muslim..... because all of these religions are proselytising religions (hope spell check will help me out!). The Jews and certain other religions did not proselytisye (i.e. actively convert others) and so the membership of the religion is very closely tied to their race though there are a small number of exceptions I would suggest there is no real room to argue that the Jews are not a distinct "race" Jack
Quote by Green_Fox_71 You may be right to question whether being a Christian makes you a member of a race ditto whether being a Roman Catholic or for that matter a Muslim..... because all of these religions are proselytising religions (hope spell check will help me out!). The Jews and certain other religions did not proselytisye (i.e. actively convert others) and so the membership of the religion is very closely tied to their race though there are a small number of exceptions I would suggest there is no real room to argue that the Jews are not a distinct "race" Jack
I would like to concede that point because it does make sense, but think it would be wrong to do so, Polish Jews, Romanian Jews, German Jews, French Jews, Dutch Jews, although they are all caucasions there were a small number of non-caucasion Jews murdered, the fact that their numbers are few being the main reason, the reason that I have to reject the argument is because AH would have killed every Jew if he could, had he found large numbers in Afria or in Asia he would have treated them exactly the same and for the same reason his mind wanted the other jews murdered not because of colour but because they were Jews. It may be a fine line but a line it is and what I am saying is that AH was worse than a racist he was a xenophobist.
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