Israel/Palestine conflict

3 Jan 2009

Quote by flower411
This subject is a long and drawn out one which i don't believe there is anyone on this site qualified enough to give an educated answer.

Blimey !!!! I`m the first to start whining when people attack new posters...but FFS !!!
Who the hell are you to make a comment like that ?? :shock:
Back in my box now !! rolleyes

wow calm down. All im saying is it's a very deep subject which i had to research and i still only scrathed the surface!
Most people rely on what they see in the papers or on the news which is massively driven by spin doctors within governments.
Im by no way saying that all people on this site are thick! Far from it. The middle east is subject which is very very deep.
And as for who do i think i am im someone who's done several tours in the middle east and know a little on the subject. (i really do mean a little, like i said it's very deep)
And some people may know a lot more than you but don`t feel the need to comment on this forum ..For you to state that there isn`t anybody on this site qualified to answer is weird to say the least !!
Missed that one flower. I am not stating there is no one qualified on this site. It's my opinion that there probably isn't. Like a lot of people have said in the post it is a situation that has been going for a long time, long before anyone on this site was born.
Prior to my first tour in Iraq i had the honour of speaking to a well known writer who has made his career from understanding the middle east and even he said it is a subject he is still learning more about everyday. Because it is so complex.
Before you ask i can't remember the writers name because it was 6 years ago now but if you really want to know who it was then let me know and i'll find out for you.
Like i said i wasn't stating their is no one qualified it is just my opinion.

3 Jan 2009

Since the conflict started after the rise of Islam (7th century) I seriously doubt there is anyone alive that knows anything about it !
Further, the subject is so mired (and bogged-down) by political, personal and religious ambition and bigotry that I doubt there is anyone in the world able to know anything about it. Or interested. Let's form another international committee to go to the mid-east to investigate it. We can then stay in the best hotels, with an army of servants (sorry, assistants), travel better-than-first-class (never mind global warming, sorry....climate change) and have a stonking great pension, for doing nothing, and doing it badly, but in great style and at massive expense.

3 Jan 2009

The Palestinians living in Gaza elected the Hamas party, which is a Palestinian terrorist organization (recognised as such by Canada, the European Union, Japan and the US), to be their leaders and representatives. Hamas has continued to bomb Israel, to send suicide bombers to Israel and to build illegal underground tunnels into Israel. A truce was negotiated between Hamas and Israel, but despite the truce Hamas continued to bomb Israel. Israel issued a warning to Hamas and notified Egypt, who share a border with Gaza, that if Hamas' bombing continues Israel will take action. Hamas ignored the warning and continued the bombing. Several days in advance of actually commencing retaliatory strikes, Israel sent a message to notify thousands of Hamas Palestinian people that Israel did intend to attack the Hamas military infrastructure, and for Hamas to ensure that civilians are removed from Hamas military zones. Hamas ignored the warning and still continued bombing Israel and allowed Palestinian civilians to continue living near Hamas military sites. Hamas held army recruit graduation ceremonies on two Hamas bases despite the explicit warnings from Israel to evacuate the military areas. Hamas did not evacuate the local civilian population and continued bombing Israel. The Israelis retaliated in self-defence. The causes for the outbreaks of violence have been said by previous posters, but it should be noted that Jewish Israel have never expressed any religious hatred towards Muslims whereas Hamas quite clearly states it’s policy of anti-Semitism. In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD. You do the maths and decide who has the right to live there. The Jews have been persecuted by many nations throughout their history - they won’t take any more Muslim shit.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by SlurpySarah
In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD

4 Jan 2009

Quote by SlurpySarah
Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD. You do the maths and decide who has the right to live there.

Woohoooooooo Slurpy-Sarah for Prime Minister. This will mean that all the Anglo-Saxons would have to bugger off to Germany, Denmark and other dark foresty places and give it all beck to the Welsh lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD. You do the maths and decide who has the right to live there.

Woohoooooooo Slurpy-Sarah for Prime Minister. This will mean that all the Anglo-Saxons would have to bugger off to Germany, Denmark and other dark foresty places and give it all beck to the Welsh lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dave_Notts
dont you mean the New Zealanders?
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4 Jan 2009

Quote by SlurpySarah
The Palestinians living in Gaza elected the Hamas party, which is a Palestinian terrorist organization (recognised as such by Canada, the European Union, Japan and the US), to be their leaders and representatives. Hamas has continued to bomb Israel, to send suicide bombers to Israel and to build illegal underground tunnels into Israel. A truce was negotiated between Hamas and Israel, but despite the truce Hamas continued to bomb Israel. Israel issued a warning to Hamas and notified Egypt, who share a border with Gaza, that if Hamas' bombing continues Israel will take action. Hamas ignored the warning and continued the bombing. Several days in advance of actually commencing retaliatory strikes, Israel sent a message to notify thousands of Hamas Palestinian people that Israel did intend to attack the Hamas military infrastructure, and for Hamas to ensure that civilians are removed from Hamas military zones. Hamas ignored the warning and still continued bombing Israel and allowed Palestinian civilians to continue living near Hamas military sites. Hamas held army recruit graduation ceremonies on two Hamas bases despite the explicit warnings from Israel to evacuate the military areas. Hamas did not evacuate the local civilian population and continued bombing Israel. The Israelis retaliated in self-defence. The causes for the outbreaks of violence have been said by previous posters, but it should be noted that Jewish Israel have never expressed any religious hatred towards Muslims whereas Hamas quite clearly states it’s policy of anti-Semitism. In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD. You do the maths and decide who has the right to live there. The Jews have been persecuted by many nations throughout their history - they won’t take any more Muslim shit.

the italians have as much right to england as the jews have to palestine,cos they were here 2000 years ago

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Spudorato
No offence.. but how can you really be so dumb??
0% jews in gaza? why would they live there if there is no power, no water, no food, no medicines, no freedom, no life??
Can you explain that to me?
And whats all this bullshit about hebrew texts.. does it mean that the native indian american should come back and bomb the usa and get their land back?
It's unbelievable how you guys read the sun or watch sky and think you understand what the situation is.

No life? In Gaza? Are you sure......? Seems pretty lively to me when there are rockets being lobbed across the border every day, or is that yet another zionist plot?
No medicine, no food? Er......Egyptian border roughly 6 months ago, no food, no medicine, why were there huge amounts of luxury items being bought across then? TV's, Motorcycles, Cigarettes? Not to mention the weapons and ammunition Hamas always seem to be able to get in, perhaps if they concentrated on 'governing' rather than trying to sting the elephant things may just improve a little bit for Gaza and it's inhabitants?
Like it or not, the Gazan civilians suffer because of one thing.....Hamas. If people think that Hamas have any right to to use rockets, homicide bombers and kidnap as a means to protect and further their claim to what is currently Israel, by that logic Israel has the same right to defend it's population from Hamas attacks.
The only way this is ever going to be solved is by both sides admitting they are wrong and starting from a mutual position of reconcilliation and peace rather than 'We're right and your wrong'
By the way....I don't read the Sun, but don't let that little fact get in the way of your next bit of prejudice eh? And it's generally accepted that to rip into someone else's post, you also provide your take on things, so we can see where your coming from.

4 Jan 2009

Sorry, had to find this again:

It is a bit long. But informative about Islam.
If you do not like what you hear, I care not.
Peaceful my arse.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by JTS
Sorry, had to find this again:

It is a bit long. But informative about Islam.
If you do not like what you hear, I care not.
Peaceful my arse.

Looks like BNP propaganda to me. A similar documentary could be made of Christian fundamentalists but I would never put the dear old lady next door into the same basket as the fundamentalists just because she goes to church on a Sunday. If you do, then you have a very narrow outlook IMO.
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Chris - you don't have to apologise to anyone, no one who has not experienced first hand the culture, ideology and history of this region first hand can really offer informed comment about this.
Armchair Politicians were responsible for Great Britain trying to syphilise (I mean 'civilise') the world hundreds of years ago. It is one of the reasons that this issue gets such heated debate because conventional western (logical) thinking simply does not apply in these conflict area's and our frustration at being unable to understand the mentality often leads to anger.
Personally, I think your comments were were on the button.

4 Jan 2009

Have we solved it yet then........ rolleyes

4 Jan 2009

Quote by markz
Have we solved it yet then........

Yep
We put them all in a field and bomb the bastards.
Dave_Notts
PS Now where did that phrase come from? I am sure I watched it on TV years ago.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by markz
Have we solved it yet then........

No.
And I thought I'd throw this quote in - as, although it's from earlier times, it still represents the attitude of one of the sides:
"We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."
Golda Meir (to Saddat)
Of course it's daughters too now.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Spudorato
In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD

No offence.. but how can you really be so dumb??
0% jews in gaza? why would they live there if there is no power, no water, no food, no medicines, no freedom, no life??
Can you explain that to me?
And whats all this bullshit about hebrew texts.. does it mean that the native indian american should come back and bomb the usa and get their land back?
It's unbelievable how you guys read the sun or watch sky and think you understand what the situation is.
What the fuck does that idiotic comment mean?
I suppose you read the Economist, and never pick your nose either?
Not all Sun readers are in the bracket you would like to think they are in! I understand the situation perfecty and I read the Sun. What ill informed bullshit. cool

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Spudorato
In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD

No offence.. but how can you really be so dumb??
0% jews in gaza? why would they live there if there is no power, no water, no food, no medicines, no freedom, no life??
Can you explain that to me?
And whats all this bullshit about hebrew texts.. does it mean that the native indian american should come back and bomb the usa and get their land back?
It's unbelievable how you guys read the sun or watch sky and think you understand what the situation is.
Sigh! Please read something other than the Beano or Big Butts Monthly - the Jews moved out en-masse in 2005 and before in smaller numbers. Also, as dumb means not being able to speak, I would also suggest you read a dictionary or at least look up the big words (3 letters or more in your case) before attempting to use them.
And finally, the Native Americans don't have to use bombs - much of their land has been returned to them or been compensated for.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by annejohn
The Palestinians living in Gaza elected the Hamas party, which is a Palestinian terrorist organization (recognised as such by Canada, the European Union, Japan and the US), to be their leaders and representatives. Hamas has continued to bomb Israel, to send suicide bombers to Israel and to build illegal underground tunnels into Israel. A truce was negotiated between Hamas and Israel, but despite the truce Hamas continued to bomb Israel. Israel issued a warning to Hamas and notified Egypt, who share a border with Gaza, that if Hamas' bombing continues Israel will take action. Hamas ignored the warning and continued the bombing. Several days in advance of actually commencing retaliatory strikes, Israel sent a message to notify thousands of Hamas Palestinian people that Israel did intend to attack the Hamas military infrastructure, and for Hamas to ensure that civilians are removed from Hamas military zones. Hamas ignored the warning and still continued bombing Israel and allowed Palestinian civilians to continue living near Hamas military sites. Hamas held army recruit graduation ceremonies on two Hamas bases despite the explicit warnings from Israel to evacuate the military areas. Hamas did not evacuate the local civilian population and continued bombing Israel. The Israelis retaliated in self-defence. The causes for the outbreaks of violence have been said by previous posters, but it should be noted that Jewish Israel have never expressed any religious hatred towards Muslims whereas Hamas quite clearly states it’s policy of anti-Semitism. In Israel, Muslims make up approx. 17% of the population and they live in peace with their neighbours. Current population of Jews in Gaza - 0%. In a nutshell, Hamas say that Israel is their land, the Israelis say it’s theirs. Archaeological digs have found Hebrew texts and other historical evidence to show that Jews had occupied the general area of Israel since before 2000 BC. Islam was founded in the mid 7th Century AD. You do the maths and decide who has the right to live there. The Jews have been persecuted by many nations throughout their history - they won’t take any more Muslim shit.

the italians have as much right to england as the jews have to palestine,cos they were here 2000 years ago
No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.

4 Jan 2009

okay... i have watched this thread with interest, I wish I had got in earlier....
lets look at some facts here...
there had been a 6 month truce between Hamas and Israel... however since the formation of the Hamas government, Israel has had a blockade on gaza by land and sea, only allowing in essential aid....
it was only when hamas said they were not going to extend it on the same terms that israel turned this up a notch
also.... with regard to hamas rockets being fired into isreal.... according to Israeli figures, how many people have been killed in all the months and years by these rockets.....
the answer is 4.......let me say that again.... 4!
so it is all well and good saying these are fired indiscriminatly, but if israel planes then hit a mosque like they did on friday, or a shopping mall like they did today, and then say "oops" then who wins the "hearts and minds" war???
lets look back to last summer........
last summer 2 israeli soldiers were kidnapped from a barracks in northern israel..... the israeli response, bomb the bejesus out of lebanon....
where is that a "measured" response???
in the long term... if israel want peace and security, they have to win over the moderate arabs which then marginalises the extremists.....
all that israel is doing at the moment is polarising moderate arab opinion..... calls for a ceasefire, israel is rejecting it....
neither side comes out of it looking good.... just a case of who comes out of it worse, I sure it plays well in israel, i am sure it doesn't play well in the outside world

4 Jan 2009

How can you win over "moderate" people when their religion glorifies the killing of those not religious, or of differing religions ?
Pray tell me ? (no pun)

4 Jan 2009

Quote by JTS
How can you win over "moderate" people when their religion glorifies the killing of those not religious, or of differing religions ?
Pray tell me ? (no pun)

Which one are you asking about?
The moderate Islam, Jewish or Christian. Not being funny but they all glorify violence as they were written in a time where you "slay your neighbour" just to survive. However most religious people realise that the books are not literal but a way of life.....where some of it will change with time.
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by JTS
How can you win over "moderate" people when their religion glorifies the killing of those not religious, or of differing religions ?
Pray tell me ? (no pun)

the thing about books like the Qur'an or the Bible is that people can interpret any way to suit there views...... be that both moderate and extremist
try reading some parts of the old testament some time...... it is not exactly a "my god is a merciful god" piece of writing

4 Jan 2009

slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

4 Jan 2009

I think that fabio's post is quite accurate and to add i have a friend who lives in Jeruslem, after what seemed like ww3 there once i mailed him to ask if he was ok, he told me that the news sensationalise whats happening, hence the tally of 4 dead sounding right.
The other thing that is in my thinking, it suits the U.S. to allow Isreal to bomb indescriminatley? after all, isn't in their eyes all the arab world the enemy?it sometimes appears so? If it wasn't for the amount of Jews in America and the positioning of isreal in the middle East, would the world community look upon all parties differently?

4 Jan 2009

Quote by fabio
also.... with regard to hamas rockets being fired into isreal.... according to Israeli figures, how many people have been killed in all the months and years by these rockets.....
the answer is 4.......let me say that again.... 4!

With the greatest respect Fabio, I'd check your figures.
I can find and present figures that say 13 Israeli citizens have been killed by rocket fire alone since 2001.
I can also present figures that show when homicide bombings, mortar fire and shootings by 'Palestinian terror groups' as a whole are factored in, the number killed is 1000 plus and the number injured is over 8000.
Now I know that's 'widening the goalposts' a little, but isn't the whole Israeli operation to destroy the terrorist infrastructure of Hamas? They are not solely looking at the rocket problem, so isolating those figures from the total death toll is imho and to be fair not giving the whole picture

4 Jan 2009

Quote by annejohn
slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

4 Jan 2009

okay.... i'll give ya 13.... what you may find is that is is 4 in the south (border with gaza) and 9 in the north (border with lebanon)
same number of people killed when they stuck the mosque, just as an aside
so again would you call what is going on a "measured response"???

4 Jan 2009

I would like to reply with words of wisdom solving all the concerns of all parties. Sadly, this piece of land has been under dispute for so long, since the end of WW2, and their have been so many deaths on all sides; there bound to be more.
All must except that today is today and live with it, stop the killing and start a new. Before that can happen there needs to be more deaths. How many I wish I new.
It will only stop when everyone has had enough of killing.
Travis

4 Jan 2009

Can I just remind some of you what the Acceptable Use Policy says, especially this section:
Non Acceptable Behaviour.
Abusive, aggressive, hateful or racist behaviour towards fellow members, Ops/Mods or Administration staff.
Be aware, that failure to abide by this can result in your profile being deactivated from the site. If you have not read the AUP recently, then it can be found via this link - http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/main/aup.html

4 Jan 2009

Quote by fabio
so again would you call what is going on a "measured response"???

I cannot answer that, for one simple reason.....
I'm not living under fire every day. If I were my opinion may be very different from the one I have now.
I would hazard a guess and say for the Israeli people, who have lived with the threat of Palestinian rocket attack, homicide bombing, gunmen, mortar attacks and kidnap, it probably appears a minimal response. For those of us lucky enough to live in reasonably peaceful areas of the world it may appear 'over the top' The difference being, our necks are not on the line if we do nothing but talk.
Damned if they do and possibly dead if they don't.....not much of a choice is it?
I've said time and again in this thread that neither side will gain anything from this conflict, imho both sides are wrong, but I also do not see what choice the Israeli's have, facing an enemy that will not ever stop, but to wage war on them.
So I'll turn your question back on you......If this is not a 'measured response' what would you class as one?

4 Jan 2009

Quote by SlurpySarah
slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

Hebrew texts from before 2000 BCE describing the conquest of The Land of Israel????!!!! Do you mean from the Talmud or from Exodus?? Please tell me where to find this hitherto unknown gem of historical knowledge that you seem so expert on.
Deuteronomy 20:10-17
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Sounds kind of fluffy to me, the way they asked can they move in and live in peace.........or did I read it wrong lol

Dave_Notts