Israel/Palestine conflict

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

Hebrew texts from before 2000 BCEdescribing the conquest of The Land of Israel????!!!! Do you mean from the Talmud or from Exodus?? Please tell me where to find this hitherto unknown gem of historical knowledge that you seem so expert on.
Deuteronomy 20:10-17
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Sounds kind of fluffy to me, the way they asked can they move in and live in peace.........or did I read it wrong lol

Dave_Notts
I'm fully aware of Deuteronomy - it's generally accepted that it was composed in the late 7th century BC. I specified prior to 2000 BCE to accentuate my point of longetivity.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by
I would like to reply with words of wisdom solving all the concerns of all parties. Sadly, this piece of land has been under dispute for so long, since the end of WW2, and their have been so many deaths on all sides; there bound to be more.
All must except that today is today and live with it, stop the killing and start a new. Before that can happen there needs to be more deaths. How many I wish I new.
It will only stop when everyone has had enough of killing.
Travis

In my opinion I think these problems will only ever end, when Hamas is wiped out from Palestine. It will only end when Palestine cannot hurt Israel in any way.
That will not happen and for that reason, the Middle East problems will be here in 50...100...and probably a 1000 years from now.
Now Israel have acted, I feel they will not let up until Palestine is on it's knees, and Hamas are wiped out and are no longer the threat to Israel, that Israel think they are.
Time will prove me right or wrong, but the hatred there, will not disperse because a few politicians agree to meet a round a table and discuss ceasefires.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by SlurpySarah
slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

Hebrew texts from before 2000 BCEdescribing the conquest of The Land of Israel????!!!! Do you mean from the Talmud or from Exodus?? Please tell me where to find this hitherto unknown gem of historical knowledge that you seem so expert on.
Deuteronomy 20:10-17
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Sounds kind of fluffy to me, the way they asked can they move in and live in peace.........or did I read it wrong lol

Dave_Notts
I'm fully aware of Deuteronomy - it's generally accepted that it was composed in the late 7th century BC. I specified prior to 2000 BCE to accentuate my point of longetivity.
It is generally accepted that it was re-written but the text was taken from earlier sources.
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
In my opinion I think these problems will only ever end, when Hamas is wiped out from Palestine.

Or the other way around. One thing that history does tell us............and that is that the weak one day become the strong.
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
slurpysarah wrote No, the Romans (an Italian city state made from many other mercenary nations) invaded Britain and wrested it from the native Britons. They weren't here before that.
according to jewish texts, they wrested the land from the indiginous population,and with even greater bloodshed and attrocities than the romans

Hebrew texts from before 2000 BCEdescribing the conquest of The Land of Israel????!!!! Do you mean from the Talmud or from Exodus?? Please tell me where to find this hitherto unknown gem of historical knowledge that you seem so expert on.
Deuteronomy 20:10-17
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
Sounds kind of fluffy to me, the way they asked can they move in and live in peace.........or did I read it wrong lol

Dave_Notts
I'm fully aware of Deuteronomy - it's generally accepted that it was composed in the late 7th century BC. I specified prior to 2000 BCE to accentuate my point of longetivity.
It is generally accepted that it was re-written but the text was taken fromearlier sources.
Dave_Notts
I would like to add to this by saying gravy was indeed an earlier sauce. Since Humanity first dicovered the roast (dinner sort) there has always been the need for sauce.

4 Jan 2009

:laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove: :laughabove:
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
In my opinion I think these problems will only ever end, when Hamas is wiped out from Palestine.

Or the other way around. One thing that history does tell us............and that is that the weak one day become the strong.
Dave_Notts
Usually History tells us this only happens through people power.
Highly unlikely to happen in Palestine.

4 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
In my opinion I think these problems will only ever end, when Hamas is wiped out from Palestine.

Or the other way around. One thing that history does tell us............and that is that the weak one day become the strong.
Dave_Notts
Usually History tells us this only happens through people power.
Highly unlikely to happen in Palestine.
They said that about Northern Ireland.
The only downside for Isreal is that they are surrounded by Arab states that want to keep the Palestinian Problem going to ensure Isreal is constantly chipped away at. If Isreal loses the backing of the USA then they will fall.
Dave_Notts

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
They said that about Northern Ireland.
Dave_Notts

Yes but Northern Ireland was full of little green people who could grant 3 wishes! :giggle:
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4 Jan 2009

Quote by blonde

They said that about Northern Ireland.
Dave_Notts

Yes but Northern Ireland was full of little green people who could grant 3 wishes! :giggle:
Sam xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Three men walked into a pub rubbed the fruit machine and the Police appeared :huh:
Ohhhhhhhhhh Robbed not rubbed :doh: I get it now

4 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
The only downside for Isreal is that they are surrounded by Arab states that want to keep the Palestinian Problem going to ensure Isreal is constantly chipped away at. If Isreal loses the backing of the USA then they will fall.
Dave_Notts

Agreed up to a point Dave,
Unfortunately I could never envisage Israel falling without a large part of the aggressor or aggressor's countries being turned into glass.
20 to 30 years ago, I would have agreed totally that without the US, Israel was a paper tiger, unable to proscecute a war without the backing of America.
Now, I believe beyond any doubt Israel is more than capable, has the infrastructure and the civil and political will to go against world opinion and wage war on whoever amongst its neighbours it deems as a sufficient and immediate threat.
Israel is no longer totally indebted to the US for weaponry, it has it's own weapons manufacturers, thought in some circles to actually surpass the quality of weapons made by the US. Many of the weapons it has been supplied with by the US have been improved upon and in some cases those improvements actually sold back to the suppliers.
It has it's own nuclear weapons programme, unlike ours under no control other than their own. In all honesty the only weakness in the Israeli armed forces is they do not have the ability to project conventional power far beyond their own borders, meaning they have to engage and fight a conventional war in or near to their own lands.
I would think that despite the rhetoric, posturing and implied threats Israels near neighbours employ, none of them wants to get into all out war with them. Hence the use and backing of terrorist groups in the hope of as you say, removing the backing, the scary thing is, I don't think this will weaken Israel enough to make a difference in the short term.

5 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
I would like to reply with words of wisdom solving all the concerns of all parties. Sadly, this piece of land has been under dispute for so long, since the end of WW2, and their have been so many deaths on all sides; there bound to be more.
All must except that today is today and live with it, stop the killing and start a new. Before that can happen there needs to be more deaths. How many I wish I new.
It will only stop when everyone has had enough of killing.
Travis

In my opinion I think these problems will only ever end, when Hamas is wiped out from Palestine. It will only end when Palestine cannot hurt Israel in any way.
That will not happen and for that reason, the Middle East problems will be here in 50...100...and probably a 1000 years from now.
Now Israel have acted, I feel they will not let up until Palestine is on it's knees, and Hamas are wiped out and are no longer the threat to Israel, that Israel think they are.
Time will prove me right or wrong, but the hatred there, will not disperse because a few politicians agree to meet a round a table and discuss ceasefires....or when Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. Who knows, the friends of Gaza may unite and role into Israel. I know unlikely, but some are hopping for just that to happen. That may be an even bigger disaster, foe everyone.
Travis

5 Jan 2009

Quote by
Or when Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. Who knows, the friends of Gaza may unite and role into Israel. I know unlikely, but some are hopping for just that to happen. That may be an even bigger disaster, foe everyone.
Travis

I'd look at The Six Day War and Yom Kippur for the reasons that probably won't ever happen again.
The Israelis were heavily outnumbered, enjoyed no where near the technological gap there is now and the best the Arab world had to offer lost and lost heavily.
I also would not under value the importance of Israels nuclear force.
Imho and I believe if the truth be known, the Palestinian's don't have any friends, least of all any capable of taking on Israel in a full on shooting war. I truly believe as Dave Notts stated they are used for this very reason, as a surrogate by other's to chip away, in the vain hope of losing Israel it's 'backers'
Imho, if it does come to a war between Israel and it's neighbours, there will only be one winner and it won't be the Arab world.

5 Jan 2009

Even though I do not think Israel are right in doing this, and civilians getting killed can never be right but....I agree with Israel to the point of, they are not going to take any more of this shit, and what Arab country have the will or the firepower, or the balls to act against them? Talk is cheap, and Israel are not going to do cheap anymore.
In my book Israel have the bollocks to say " enough is enough ". Unlike so many other countries who would roll over, Israel are tough cookies who have taken a hard line stance, and will not listen to all the Western Politicians, who have no back bone.
How the hell this Government and the US, have the sheer nerve to tell them to call a ceasefire. What right have we...currently stationed in another country, at war, be in any position to judge the Israelies?
The humanitarian disaster in Palestine is awful but....Israel have now started something for which they are now determined to finish. Knowing a bit about the history, I really cannot blame them. If they do not finish Hamas now, they will be in the same situation five years from now.
Israel may well be condemed for their actions but, I really think they do not care what anyone now say's. As someone said earlier, Israel are now self sufficiant miltarily, and will go alone if they have too.
The British and American Governments stay out! Concentrate on finishing the war you have started, before condeming others for doing the same thing.....What double standards by us.
This sort of sums it up for me...

5 Jan 2009

At the end of the day, or war, the Israeli armed forces look likely to have 20(+-) nuclear weapons.
Whether they will use them is debatable.
The same cannot be said of other countries in that area, if they possessed the weapons.
My money is on the Israeli's using them, as would the US armed forces, if sufficiently provoked.
Frying tonight ?

5 Jan 2009

Quote by
That will not happen and for that reason, the Middle East problems will be here in 50...100...and probably a 1000 years from now.
Now Israel have acted, I feel they will not let up until Palestine is on it's knees, and Hamas are wiped out and are no longer the threat to Israel, that Israel think they are.
Time will prove me right or wrong, but the hatred there, will not disperse because a few politicians agree to meet a round a table and discuss ceasefires.

Sorry, i have to disagree with you on that one. Even if Hamas did get wiped out or even turned to peaceful means of negotiation there would only be another Terrorist faction that would take it's place. Look at Northern Ireland as a good example. How many different splinter groups of the IRA where there by the end of the conflict?
Im sure if you could get hold of the members list of Hamas you'd probably fined that a lot of there members come from other muslim states.

5 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple
Or when Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. Who knows, the friends of Gaza may unite and role into Israel. I know unlikely, but some are hopping for just that to happen. That may be an even bigger disaster, foe everyone.
Travis

I'd look at The Six Day War and Yom Kippur for the reasons that probably won't ever happen again.
The Israelis were heavily outnumbered, enjoyed no where near the technological gap there is now and the best the Arab world had to offer lost and lost heavily.
I also would not under value the importance of Israels nuclear force.
Imho and I believe if the truth be known, the Palestinian's don't have any friends, least of all any capable of taking on Israel in a full on shooting war. I truly believe as Dave Notts stated they are used for this very reason, as a surrogate by other's to chip away, in the vain hope of losing Israel it's 'backers'
Imho, if it does come to a war between Israel and it's neighbours, there will only be one winner and it won't be the Arab world.
I don't think you should underestimate "the Arab World" as you put it. Yes maybe in a conventional war we would win hands down, but how many arabs do you see these day's fighting a conventional battle? Not very many. Even in Afghanistan they are turning to IED's, suicide bombing's and other guerilla warfare tactics.
I speak from experience when i tell you it's very difficult to win these types of battles because you don't know who is a civilian or who is the enemy!
Also those of you that say Palastine has no friends or words to that effect. I know for one that Iran openly backs and supports Hamas. Plus the fact that all of the surrounding muslim states don't paticularly like Israel/Jews. I'm not saying that they are all going to rise up against the Jews but i bet that Hamas has got a lot of extra recruits about now from all of the surrounding muslim states.

5 Jan 2009

Ah yes Iran. A fine example of modern History.
No wonder Israel is scared of them. Iran has a nuclear programme going, and the leader has already said " it want's Israel wiped off the face of the earth ".
I would rather have a Israel than an Iran any day of the week. Iran will have no qualms about using weapons of mass destruction, if they finally achieve that.
Br afraid, very afraid if they achieve that goal, as they are one of the most unstable countries in the Middle East, with a complete nutter with his finger on the button.

5 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
In my book Israel have the bollocks to say " enough is enough ". Unlike so many other countries who would roll over, Israel are tough cookies who have taken a hard line stance, and will not listen to all the Western Politicians, who have no back bone.

Don't the Palestinians have the right to say 'enough is enough'?
ps. Great reference the sun..

6 Jan 2009

OK I couldn't stay out of this thread.
Is Israel's action in response to the rockets the same as advocating we bombed Ireland in the 70's and 80's.
Sorry was messing with my own mind there.
Hypothetical scenario
Fellow Arabians we need to stop the mindless killing in serve notice that unless a political solution is found to the situation in 90 days we will as an organisation turn off Oil production and distribution will cease. Wouldnt that put the cat amongst the pidgeons.
And yes I can see a million and one reasons why it wouldnt work ....but heck wouldn't it focus minds . :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

6 Jan 2009

shoot 'em all, let god sort them out

6 Jan 2009

Quote by goodporking
shoot 'em all, let god sort them out

That was a very famous saying from Southern France in the Cathar suppression. But since guns were not invented they put them to the sword
Dave_Notts

6 Jan 2009

Quote by niceguysdoexist
Is Israel's action in response to the rockets the same as advocating we bombed Ireland in the 70's and 80's.

Make the situation the same and look at it.
Northern Ireland becomes an independent state with an IRA government, declares war on the mainland and fires missiles at Liverpool and Manchester constantly. What do you think the UK's response would have been.
That's the difference, we're not talking about a terrorist group in the true sense of the word, acting outside of the law of the land they operate from (The IRA) we're talking of a terrorist group who actually control and govern their own land.

6 Jan 2009

Quote by Spudorato
[
Don't the Palestinians have the right to say 'enough is enough'?
ps. Great reference the sun..

Say enough is enough to what? Being bombed by the Israeli's? Being used by Hamas as human shields? Being used as pawns by the Iranians? The answers pretty simple then isn't it? Denounce terrorism, cease any and all attacks on Israel and get back to the roadmap to peace. Egypt did it and how many times have they been attacked by Israel in the last 30 years? It takes two sides to find peace, is there really any chance of that when part of the Hamas charter is to strive for the total destruction of the state of Israel?
Condemning one side whilst being sympathetic to the cause of the other isn't going to solve anything, both sides need to find a way to live together in mutual security and aid if necessary. Every rocket fired, homicide bombing, air strike or tank shell takes that goal further and further away
Just for the record and IMHO again you do yourself a disservice with your silly snipes at which references people choose.
I'd be interested to know which far superior reference material you have access to. Not to mention your opinions on the subject.

6 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple
Just for the record and IMHO again you do yourself a disservice with your silly snipes at which references people choose.

Agreed :thumbup:
Dave_Notts

6 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Ah yes Iran. A fine example of modern History.
No wonder Israel is scared of them. Iran has a nuclear programme going, and the leader has already said " it want's Israel wiped off the face of the earth ".
I would rather have a Israel than an Iran any day of the week. Iran will have no qualms about using weapons of mass destruction, if they finally achieve that.
Br afraid, very afraid if they achieve that goal, as they are one of the most unstable countries in the Middle East, with a complete nutter with his finger on the button.

Not that i want to stick up for Iran but i had to do a Defence study on Iran not so long back and you'd be shocked at the things I found out. There are a lot of things that are miss represented or omited in certain reports.
For example when the president was talking about "Israel being wiped off the map" it was actually blown out of all proportion. As with most things in teh news they pick up on certain things and sensationallise them.
As for their nuclear program. They are a member of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty which states as a member it is their inalienable right to carry out nuclear research for the use of power.
Now i know your going to come back about them having a nuclear weapons program, however, UN inspectors found no evidence of such a program. At their current rate if they where enriching uranium for weapons they would not have the capability for another 50 years and even then it would be limited (because it needs to be a lot richer than if it is being used for power). Don't forget it's not as if tehy could have a secret refinery stashed away somewhere, this is done in a massive facility and not just in someones kitchen.
Another point that not many people know is that Iran paid America Billions of Dollars for research into nuclear power. How much research did they reseive? very little if not Non. How much of their money did they recieve back? Non. Yes fair enough their was a change of power in Iran which made the americans change their mind, but to not even give them their money back, of which we are talking Billions! I know i'd be pissed.
Instead teh US placed trade embargoes on Iran meaning they couldn't trade with the likes of China and Russia, thus stunting their growth and slowing them down from achieving Super Power status.
One final point, Iran's oil reserves are only predicted to last another 30-60 years. Their population is growing massively each year. Iran say's they only want to research Nuclear fusion for power requirements as tehy cannot sustain their current power demands using fossil fuels.
Again im not saying they are completely innocent. I don't think their is such a thing as a completely innocent party. These are just some of the things that i know i was suprised about.
If i can find a copy of my Defence study i will post it as it has more detail with references in it. Im sure a lot of you will find it an interesting read and a big eye opener.

6 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Iran has a nuclear programme going, and the leader has already said "it want's Israel wiped off the face of the earth ".

Kent, no he hasn't. It was widely reported that Ahmadinejad had threatened to wipe them off the map, but unfortunately, it's simply not true Kent. What he actually said was "The regime occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of history". That might seem a very subtle distinction, but the intent and the context is very, very different.
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal under International Law, as affirmed by countless U.N. resolutions. Iran quite obviously has good reasons why it refuses to recognise the legitimacy of a regime that continues to illegally occupy East Jerusalem. Ahmadinejad was simply saying that history itself will one day bring about a change in that situation, and the occupation will end. He went on to give other examples of how the Shah fell in Iran, and how the Soviet Union collapsed under it's own contradictions. That's all he said. That is not at all the same thing as a direct military threat.
As for whether this particular "nutter" would ever have his finger on a nuclear button, it's highly unlikely. Firstly, even if Iran were to successfully build a nuclear bomb, he would more than likely be out of power by then. Secondly, command of the armed forces and the power to declare war lies with the Supreme Leader, who's beleieved to be rather more moderate than his outspoken President, and has distanced himself at times from him.
Neil x x x ;)

6 Jan 2009

Quote by neilinleeds
Iran has a nuclear programme going, and the leader has already said "it want's Israel wiped off the face of the earth ".

Kent, no he hasn't. It was widely reported that Ahmadinejad had threatened to wipe them off the map, but unfortunately, it's simply not true Kent. What he actually said was "The regime occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of history". That might seem a very subtle distinction, but the intent and the context is very, very different.
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal under International Law, as affirmed by countless U.N. resolutions. Iran quite obviously has good reasons why it refuses to recognise the legitimacy of a regime that continues to illegally occupy East Jerusalem. Ahmadinejad was simply saying that history itself will one day bring about a change in that situation, and the occupation will end. He went on to give other examples of how the Shah fell in Iran, and how the Soviet Union collapsed under it's own contradictions. That's all he said. That is not at all the same thing as a direct military threat.
As for whether this particular "nutter" would ever have his finger on a nuclear button, it's highly unlikely. Firstly, even if Iran were to successfully build a nuclear bomb, he would more than likely be out of power by then. Secondly, command of the armed forces and the power to declare war lies with the Supreme Leader, who's beleieved to be rather more moderate than his outspoken President, and has distanced himself at times from him.
Neil x x x ;)
Fair points neil.
But Iran is in no position to dictate who should be where. The course for which they kicked out the Shah, and then the appointment of the clerical person, does not really seem like democracy to Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.
He threw out Dr Bahktiar's government on 11 February and, after a referendum, declared an Islamic Republic on 1 April.
This artical is very interesting as to Irans recent history.

6 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
The course for which they kicked out the Shah, and then the appointment of the clerical person, does not really seem like democracy to Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.
I am not up to date with Iran. Was the Shah a King? If he was then that isn't democratic either.
He threw out
Dr Bahktiar's government on 11 February and, after a referendum, declared an Islamic Republic on 1 April.
After a referendum? Isn't that when the people vote? Thats democratic............isn't it?
Dave_Notts

6 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777
Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.

7's the Ayatollah fellow had those 14 years in France :uhoh: for gods sake! How much more could you make a man suffer eh? :shock: