Israel/Palestine conflict

6 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts

The course for which they kicked out the Shah, and then the appointment of the clerical person, does not really seem like democracy to Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.
I am not up to date with Iran. Was the Shah a King? If he was then that isn't democratic either.
He threw out
Dr Bahktiar's government on 11 February and, after a referendum, declared an Islamic Republic on 1 April.
After a referendum? Isn't that when the people vote? Thats democratic............isn't it?
Dave_Notts

Ermmmmm..........there was a referendum AFTER he was booted out, not before.
Also being Iran can you imagine anyone voting against an Islamic Republic? They would have had their hands chopped off, just for asking why.
I wonder if the people of Iran have any say in anything? An Islamic Republic.....sounds like fun. wink

6 Jan 2009

Quote by kentswingers777

The course for which they kicked out the Shah, and then the appointment of the clerical person, does not really seem like democracy to Khomeini returned to Iran on 1 February after 14 years' exile.
I am not up to date with Iran. Was the Shah a King? If he was then that isn't democratic either.
He threw out
Dr Bahktiar's government on 11 February and, after a referendum, declared an Islamic Republic on 1 April.
After a referendum? Isn't that when the people vote? Thats democratic............isn't it?
Dave_Notts

Ermmmmm..........there was a referendum AFTER he was booted out, not before.
Also being Iran can you imagine anyone voting against an Islamic Republic? They would have had their hands chopped off, just for asking why.
I wonder if the people of Iran have any say in anything? An Islamic Republic.....sounds like fun. wink

Going off what you said............
The Shah was an absolute ruler so there would never have been a referendum before he was ousted from power. That type of political set up needs an ousting before it can change political systems.
Now.....what other country had that type of political system, absolute monarchy........hmmmmmmm oh yes..........now I remember........it was us. But we didn't do anything as barbaric as throw him out of his country..........nope, we just cut his head off lol

Dave_Notts

6 Jan 2009

We as a civilised country stopped that, how many years ago? In Iran that barbaric system is still in place, it's called Sharia law! Well a part of it anyway.
I had a friend who's parents were in Tehran about 2 years before the Shah was ousted. Westerners were free to come and go, and his Father was working there.
When the Shah was ousted, all Westerners were either placed under house arrest, or were ordered to leave.
Any Americans that were there, were targeted and told to stay indoors, and not to venture out.
When the Ayotolla arrived, all Westerners were then the " enemy ", and my friends Father was ordered to leave. It used to be a lovely country, but in the 80's and now it is not. Well not for Westerners anyway.A dangerous regime.

7 Jan 2009

I think I made my first post on this thread by ackowledging that my knowledge of Arabian/Israeli politicshistory was very limited and I am still very concious of that fact. But just wanted to say there have been some excellent posts on here that has expanded my knowledge of the intricacies and histories of the area.
That is the power of threads like this that they can provide solid information that allows us to question our beliefs in light of a far more comprehensive knowledge base.
The world is a confused place run by the powerful for the benefit of the few; we owe it to our children to be able to see through the fog of political spin that we are fed with day in and day out.

7 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple
Or when Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. Who knows, the friends of Gaza may unite and role into Israel. I know unlikely, but some are hopping for just that to happen. That may be an even bigger disaster, foe everyone.
Travis

I'd look at The Six Day War and Yom Kippur for the reasons that probably won't ever happen again.
The Israelis were heavily outnumbered, enjoyed no where near the technological gap there is now and the best the Arab world had to offer lost and lost heavily.
I also would not under value the importance of Israels nuclear force.
Imho and I believe if the truth be known, the Palestinian's don't have any friends, least of all any capable of taking on Israel in a full on shooting war. I truly believe as Dave Notts stated they are used for this very reason, as a surrogate by other's to chip away, in the vain hope of losing Israel it's 'backers'
Imho, if it does come to a war between Israel and it's neighbours, there will only be one winner and it won't be the Arab backer are not loved by all, therefore antone who stands against them will have friends.
As for the six day war Israel rewrote the book on tank war. It was a considered campaign. This campaign is straight out of the American book, bomb everything in sight, them wonder why they are more hated.

7 Jan 2009

Quote by
Israels backer are not loved by all, therefore antone who stands against them will have friends.
As for the six day war Israel rewrote the book on tank war. It was a considered campaign. This campaign is straight out of the American book, bomb everything in sight, them wonder why they are more hated.

Exactly, the Palestinians are used as surrogate's to sting the elephant because the Palestinians 'friends' don't have the bottle to do it themselves.
Fine choice of friends that.
It's a different campaign because it's a different type of conflict, one fought in a built up area, tactically tanks are not the best weapons for fighting in urban areas.
Air power is. Ground troops are. Sensibly, you do not waste troops by throwing them against strong points or occupied buildings without a little 'softening up' first. Now unfortunately, you don't drop 500 or 1000 pound bombs into a built up area without other buildings getting damaged, which in truth is probably where most of the civilian casualties are coming from. Even precision guided weapons which have a CEP less than 30 feet will still create a blast wave more than strong enough to drop anything else around it's target.
Hmmmm, the Israeli's hated? Do you think they care? Or is it fair to assume all they want is the rockets to stop? Both sides are to blame, this is the culmination of a series of actions from both sides, imho it's going to get worse before it gets any better.

7 Jan 2009

Hated, who cares? Ask the next generation. The answer is simple, put in covert teams. Take out the rocket teams, but that would be dangerous. Better to kill those who just want to live in piece....so their families join the fight.
What would have happened if we bombed towns over the boarder, just to get IRA members?

7 Jan 2009

Quote by
Hated, who cares? Ask the next generation. The answer is simple, put in covert teams. Take out the rocket teams, but that would be dangerous. Better to kill those who just want to live in piece....so their families join the fight.
What would have happened if we bombed towns over the boarder, just to get IRA members?

Think about the problems that an Israeli special forces team would face operating inside Gaza.
Different ethnicity, different language, no access to support or re supply, not to mention the logistical problems of locating, tracking and assaulting the 'rocket teams' who most of the time only show themselves just before setting up and firing.
How many teams would you suggest they use, Gaza is an area of 150 sq miles if I remember correctly? Every building or open space can be used as a firing point.....still seem a good idea?
Far easier and infinitely more sensible to have unmanned drones on constant recon, supported by strike aircraft on combat air patrol who will find and attack the target within 5 minutes of it being identified.
I'm sure the next generation of Israelis will swap being hated for being alive, what do you think?

7 Jan 2009

Quote by
The answer is simple, put in covert teams. Take out the rocket teams, but that would be dangerous. Better to kill those who just want to live in piece....so their families join the fight.

How would an Isreali pass off as a Palestinian? When sent on Ops you are supposed to have a good chance of extraction..........if you don't then it is a suicide mission. Is that what you are suggesting?
The simple answer has come from Tony Blair that I read this morning in the Sun. He said to fill in the tunnels between Egypt and Gaza where the rockets are coming from. This question has troubled me. Gaza has no munition factories so where are these rockets oming from? A Katyusha is no small thing. So I was surprised to read about these tunnels.
Dave_Notts

7 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple
Hated, who cares? Ask the next generation. The answer is simple, put in covert teams. Take out the rocket teams, but that would be dangerous. Better to kill those who just want to live in piece....so their families join the fight.
What would have happened if we bombed towns over the boarder, just to get IRA members?

Think about the problems that an Israeli special forces team would face operating inside Gaza.
Different ethnicity, different language, no access to support or re supply, not to mention the logistical problems of locating, tracking and assaulting the 'rocket teams' who most of the time only show themselves just before setting up and firing.
How many teams would you suggest they use, Gaza is an area of 150 sq miles if I remember correctly? Every building or open space can be used as a firing point.....still seem a good idea?
Far easier and infinitely more sensible to have unmanned drones on constant recon, supported by strike aircraft on combat air patrol who will find and attack the target within 5 minutes of it being identified.
I'm sure the next generation of Israelis will swap being hated for being alive, what do you think?I am happy not to be facing the IRA with guns and bombs in their hands...and that was not done by whole sale slaughter.

7 Jan 2009

Pictures from (Some pics are graphic, the more graphic among them require an extra click)

7 Jan 2009

Quote by essex34m
Pictures from Gaza (Some pics are graphic, the more graphic among them require an extra click)

After the photos there are number of comments. One comment made me think:
"To sum it up simply if the Hamas would lay down their weapon's there would be peace, if Israel laid down theirs, there would be no Israel."
Would that be true? Quite possibly
Dave_Notts

8 Jan 2009

Quote by
I am happy not to be facing the IRA with guns and bombs in their hands...and that was not done by whole sale slaughter.

But surely you must see that is a completely different situation. PIRA (If you believe them) were fighting for a united Ireland, they were fighting to not be ruled by a foreign (as they saw it) government. Most of PIRA's activities were aimed at the armed forces and the economic and political apparatus, hence the reason they gave coded warnings when using IED's in civilian area's.
Hamas is not an indigenous Israeli terror organisation, they are in effect a government with their own 'state'. They are not concerned with having independence from a ruling government because they already have it, their aim is the destruction of a neighbouring democratic state and the 'return' of lands they believe were stolen from them. They do not give warnings, they target civilians indiscriminately, they use their own citizens to self detonate causing as many casualties as possible. A completely different set of tactics to achieve their aims, because to them it is what their version of God tells them to do.
Northern Ireland was not a conflict based on religion, no matter what people think.
And therein lies the difference and reason why any comparison is ridiculous. You can deal with an organisation who do not require your complete annihilation to achieve their aims.
What are the Israelis to do? March quietly into the darkness again without a murmur?

8 Jan 2009

Iraq
Britain virus America
Britain turns up to search a house. They knock at the door, say what is happening. They are in fact heavily armed police. Britain is pulling out a job well done.
America beats down the door, knocks out the windows smashes furniture, and pull old men and women into the street. They are shot at far more than the b
British troops. At last the US Army have opened a camp to train personnel in the British style. This will now improve, but slowly. America have acted badly for to long in Iraq.
Israel have occupied to much land and behaved badly for to long. You can feel it on the streets. I did when I was there.
...and that is my last post on this thread!

8 Jan 2009

Quote by
Iraq
Britain virus America
Britain turns up to search a house. They knock at the door, say what is happening. They are in fact heavily armed police. Britain is pulling out a job well done.
America beats down the door, knocks out the windows smashes furniture, and pull old men and women into the street. They are shot at far more than the b
British troops. At last the US Army have opened a camp to train personnel in the British style. This will now improve, but slowly. America have acted badly for to long in Iraq.
Israel have occupied to much land and behaved badly for to long. You can feel it on the streets. I did when I was there.
...and that is my last post on this thread!

And you really believe that's the only difference?
Seriously?
Nothing to do with the fact that the British army got the southern Basra zone where numerous attempted rebellions had been brutally put down by Saddam prior to the invasion? Whilst the American troops have to deal with Bagdahd, Fallujah, Tikrit and the other hotbeds of Ba'ath party support. And despite all this British troops are still targeted by IED's and snipers.
But again, it's a pointless comparison, the Israelis havn't invaded or occupied Gaza for three years before this.
Sorry your leaving the thread, I was quite enjoying it.

8 Jan 2009

Quote by essex34m
Pictures from Gaza (Some pics are graphic, the more graphic among them require an extra click)

Some fantasticly thought provoking images there widey....

9 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple
Northern Ireland was not a conflict based on religion, no matter what people think.

And the Palestinian struggle is? Palestinians are made up of Christian and Muslims aswell, both who opposed the establishment of Israel.
From what I understand, its the Israelis who believe that God promised them that land.

9 Jan 2009

Quote by Rak
And the Palestinian struggle is? Palestinians are made up of Christian and Muslims aswell, both who opposed the establishment of Israel.
From what I understand, its the Israelis who believe that God promised them that land.

Well considering that both Hamas and Hezbollah are internationally recognised as 'Muslim' terrorist organisation's although from different sects (Shia and Sunni Islam),both use religious texts as both a recruiting tool and justification for their actions, both have in their charter the stated aim of the the destruction of Israel or the "zionist entity" and the formation of an Islamic state in its place, not to mention as you correctly say the Israeli belief that "God promised them the land" I'd say yep, it probably is a religious conflict or at least is rooted in religious differences.
I don't remember hearing the PIRA ever calling for a Catholic state, or shouting death to the Church of England......do you?

9 Jan 2009

Quote by Rak
Palestinians are made up of Christian and Muslims aswell, both who opposed the establishment of Israel.

That sounds really good that both denominations are working together. But where did you get this information? Christians used to make up 25% of the population in the beginning of the 20th century. In Gaza it is estimated that there are 3000 out of 1,500,000. This makes up % of the population. This tells me that something is happening and perhaps it is just not the Jews that are being persecuted by the Islamic fundamentalists.
Dave_Notts

9 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
This tells me that something is happening and perhaps it is just not the Jews that are being persecuted by the Islamic fundamentalists.
Dave_Notts

I think this also explains some of the recent Palestinian vs palestinian history...
O.K. i know its from Wiki... wink

oh and i also give you a reference on Hamas...
look carefully at their political aims and "constitution"...I thought there was something that was making me lose some sympathy for them....or even have it in the first place.
I just want to add that there happens to be a recognised distinction between Judaism and Zionism.. and that many are wrongly interchanging the two. Israel is a secular state... which has an elected government.. representing the cross-section of political,secular and religious parties...

10 Jan 2009

Quote by staffcple

And the Palestinian struggle is? Palestinians are made up of Christian and Muslims aswell, both who opposed the establishment of Israel.
From what I understand, its the Israelis who believe that God promised them that land.

Well considering that both Hamas and Hezbollah are internationally recognised as 'Muslim' terrorist organisation's although from different sects (Shia and Sunni Islam),both use religious texts as both a recruiting tool and justification for their actions, both have in their charter the stated aim of the the destruction of Israel or the "zionist entity" and the formation of an Islamic state in its place, not to mention as you correctly say the Israeli belief that "God promised them the land" I'd say yep, it probably is a religious conflict or at least is rooted in religious differences.

We can argue the "one mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc". The point I was making is that the Palestinians aren't solely Muslims, but Christians as well. This wasn't a religious struggle to begin with, but based on land and sovereignty. Religion was then used to pump up the heat.

10 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
That sounds really good that both denominations are working together. But where did you get this information? Christians used to make up 25% of the population in the beginning of the 20th century. In Gaza it is estimated that there are 3000 out of 1,500,000. This makes up % of the population.
Dave_Notts

Would you want to live there?
I certainly wouldn't and would do everything to leave that place.

10 Jan 2009

Quote by DeeCee
I just want to add that there happens to be a recognised distinction between Judaism and Zionism.. and that many are wrongly interchanging the two. Israel is a secular state... which has an elected government.. representing the cross-section of political,secular and religious parties...

Oh come on.
Zionism is basically Jewish National/Terrorism.
Go look at history and at events like the bombing of the King David Hotel by Zionists during which British personnel were hurt.

10 Jan 2009

Quote by Rak

That sounds really good that both denominations are working together. But where did you get this information? Christians used to make up 25% of the population in the beginning of the 20th century. In Gaza it is estimated that there are 3000 out of 1,500,000. This makes up % of the population.
Dave_Notts

Would you want to live there?
I certainly wouldn't and would do everything to leave that place.
I am not a Palestinian but suspect, if I was, that I would want to live there as it was my country
Dave_Notts

11 Jan 2009

some informed comment from a different perspective

11 Jan 2009

Quote by GnV
Here's some informed comment from a different perspective

I think that this is a good article...thanks for the post.
Basically, what he is saying is that Israel will do whatever she likes and puts a big 2 fingers up to those that critisize... and the said attitude is something that it has done repeatedly since her formation as a state... and in the future.
The writer says that origionally Jews played ball politically, but after the wholesale slaughter and attempts to wipe Jews from the face of history in WW2 they took a different tack....and Israel (ta all intents and purposes a predominantly Jewish state) they have done so consistently since.... whatever the political fallout.
On a basic level, any confrontation leads to a choice of 3 options
fight, flight or freeze....
i know what id do if i was Israel......and i wouldnt give 2 shites if people dont like the way i fight....it will teach people to mess with me in future.....
sorry if this offends anyone... to me its common sense.....

11 Jan 2009

Whatever the rights/wrongs and positions of how we got here. My question is - where do we end up?
And by WE I mean the world - this isn't two small islands throwing rocks at each other without affecting the rest of the world. This is a war in a central world location. Surrounded by countries that are directly and indirectly affected by the actions being taken.

11 Jan 2009

Quote by foxylady2209
Whatever the rights/wrongs and positions of how we got here. My question is - where do we end up?
And by WE I mean the world - this isn't two small islands throwing rocks at each other without affecting the rest of the world. This is a war in a central world location. Surrounded by countries that are directly and indirectly affected by the actions being taken.

I would like to think we can end up with peace in the region. I pray there will be.

12 Jan 2009

Quote by DeeCee
The writer says that origionally Jews played ball politically, but after the wholesale slaughter and attempts to wipe Jews from the face of history in WW2 they took a different tack....

You mean terrorism? Correct me if I'm wrong, it was the zionists wthat were the first people in the 20th century to commit acts of international terrorism. Much before any religious group, IRA, ETA etc.
Also, lets put things into perspective. It was only in lands occupied by the Germans where Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, not in the free western world.
And Jews werent the only people that suffered under Hitler. I don't think homosexuals resorted to terrorism and wanted their own country as Hitler tortured and killed many of them also.
I also dont want to offend anyone, but I dont think peace will ever be accomplished by killing innocent people. When people are backed into a corner (or surrounded by a wall) then they have nothing to lose. I think that if the Palestinians were given more assistance, then they would stop supporting people like Hamas who appear to be their saviours.

12 Jan 2009

Quote by Dave__Notts
I am not a Palestinian but suspect, if I was, that I would want to live there as it was my country
Dave_Notts

Without going into too much details, I can say that during the partition of the Indian subcontinent (1947), millions were killed and forced to leave their homes with nothing. Musharraf (ex Pakistani president) was born in India, while Singh (India PM) was actually born in Pakistan.
Also, alot of the Ugandan-Indians in the UK (Indians who had migrated to Uganda afew generations ago) were forced to leave by Idi.
We'd all like to think we'd stay in our own country, but its not always possible or desirable.
Its not only Christian Palestinians who have left Gaza of the other refugee camps, many Muslims have also tried to integrate into which ever country accepts them.