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Israel/Palestine conflict
Chris it is nice to see a new forum member posting.
I know a fair bit about the middle east problems, mainly through reading factual stuff from books and the web.
Politicians have been trying to sort this problem out for decades, with zero success.
This is not the same problem as with Northern Ireland, though similar in many respects.
Palestinians have a much deeper hatred than we in the West can ever imagine. Their hatred for the Jews and/or Israel, will not be settled overnight. Nor will it be settled over years. The deep seated hatred coupled with the strong religious beliefs, sadly will mean there will always be conflict.
I wish a solution could be found, but I sadly feel this particular problem cannot be solved by politicians. The only way Palestinians will be happy, is if Israel give back the land, and we know that will never happen.
By the way Chris....your signature proves to me you are a nice guy.
I know a fair bit about the middle east problems, mainly through reading factual stuff from books and the web.
Politicians have been trying to sort this problem out for decades, with zero success.
This is not the same problem as with Northern Ireland, though similar in many respects.
Palestinians have a much deeper hatred than we in the West can ever imagine. Their hatred for the Jews and/or Israel, will not be settled overnight. Nor will it be settled over years. The deep seated hatred coupled with the strong religious beliefs, sadly will mean there will always be conflict.
I wish a solution could be found, but I sadly feel this particular problem cannot be solved by politicians. The only way Palestinians will be happy, is if Israel give back the land, and we know that will never happen.
By the way Chris....your signature proves to me you are a nice guy.
Sex God
Quote by Chris-1977
Hi Nola back me up here will ya. Tell em all im a nice guy
You are a very nice man Chris and its nice to see someone able to discuss without having a full blown argument
In edit - that sounded like I was saying the rest were arguing and thats not what I mean, it should have said, its nice to see you all discussing without a full blow argument
Sex God
Quote by Chris-1977
Hi Nola back me up here will ya. Tell em all im a nice guy
:rascal: Very nice... if they're not playing then come and play with me!
Yes i totally agree. What a lot of people don't understand is the hatred between the two groups and the deep implications of their religion with each other.
All i will say is Israel is a country that should be feared. (in my opinion). They have the might, the experiance and the inclination to use it, closely backed up by the USA.
All i will say is Israel is a country that should be feared. (in my opinion). They have the might, the experiance and the inclination to use it, closely backed up by the USA.
Sex God
Quote by Chris-1977
Hi Nola back me up here will ya. Tell em all im a nice guy
:rascal: Very nice... if they're not playing then come and play with me!
MMMMM can't wait. Shame the party was a no go
:doh: Next time
Sex God
I know this conflict can be traced back a long way, and many countries (including the UK) has contributed to it in one way or another, BUT:
Both countries have a choice.
Either country can choose to stop firing.
Either country can choose to put the future over short term 'victory' or heaven forbid, revenge.
The argument "he hit me first" belongs in the playground.
The argument "You force me to hurt you" belongs in a bad James Bond movie.
Seeking the cause or origin of this conflict, laying blame is clearly going nowhere.
Perhaps what is needed is some courage on both sides.
Not the courage to kill, but the courage to talk, to listen and to change.
I am not qualified to comment on fault, responsibility etc, but I believe it is time to change direction.
Both countries have a choice.
Either country can choose to stop firing.
Either country can choose to put the future over short term 'victory' or heaven forbid, revenge.
The argument "he hit me first" belongs in the playground.
The argument "You force me to hurt you" belongs in a bad James Bond movie.
Seeking the cause or origin of this conflict, laying blame is clearly going nowhere.
Perhaps what is needed is some courage on both sides.
Not the courage to kill, but the courage to talk, to listen and to change.
I am not qualified to comment on fault, responsibility etc, but I believe it is time to change direction.
So how many professors of middle eastern history and politics do we have on the forum then? 
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might of Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of a laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
The history of this conflict is tortuous in the extreme, I do wonder however, how a people who have had such horror visited upon them in the past, can be so willing to visit the same horrors on others today.
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might of Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of a laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
The history of this conflict is tortuous in the extreme, I do wonder however, how a people who have had such horror visited upon them in the past, can be so willing to visit the same horrors on others today.
Sex God
Quote by Stormwalker
So how many professors of middle eastern history and politics do we have on the forum then?
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might if Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
The history of this conflict is tortuous in the extreme, I do wonder however, how a people who have had such horror visited upon them in the past, can be so willing to visit the same horrors on others today.
I agree with the rest of what you say Storm though the bravery I would say is more fanatacism and delusion. Is it brave to knowingly bring the wrath of an opponent down on your kin folk? I dont think it is.
What we really need is one of those pens that the men in black have
Quote by foxylady2209
I know this conflict can be traced back a long way, and many countries (including the UK) has contributed to it in one way or another, BUT:
Both countries have a choice.
Either country can choose to stop firing.
Either country can choose to put the future over short term 'victory' or heaven forbid, revenge.
The argument "he hit me first" belongs in the playground.
The argument "You force me to hurt you" belongs in a bad James Bond movie.
Seeking the cause or origin of this conflict, laying blame is clearly going nowhere.
Perhaps what is needed is some courage on both sides.
Not the courage to kill, but the courage to talk, to listen and to change.
I am not qualified to comment on fault, responsibility etc, but I believe it is time to change direction.
You're probably right. The only way to resolve most conflicts is for someone to back down. The only thing is it's not just based on land it's based around religion as well and i don't think you could get 2 more devout groups than muslims and Jew's. Plus the land that's in question is a holy place to both groups.
Quote by Lost
So how many professors of middle eastern history and politics do we have on the forum then?
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might if Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
The history of this conflict is tortuous in the extreme, I do wonder however, how a people who have had such horror visited upon them in the past, can be so willing to visit the same horrors on others today.
I agree with the rest of what you say Storm though the bravery I would say is more fanatacism and delusion. Is it brave to knowingly bring the wrath of an opponent down on your kin folk? I dont think it is.
What we really need is one of those pens that the men in black have
When you are hemmed into one of the most densely populated places on the planet without freedom of movement what choice do you have? was the Polish rising in Warsaw an act of cowardice? the siege of Berlin? No one would choose their home as a battlefield, but people seldom have the freedom to choose.
Fanatic... some are for sure, others are just desperate. What would you have them do? what would we do...?
Gaza has a population of around 1,537,269, and is only about 146 sq mi.
Sex God
You are right Storm. I guess i'm just talking/thinking from the comfort of not living there and being in some way religeously or ethnically attached wondering why that piece of shitty land is that important.
Me? If I had my way i'd find a piece of land somewhere and say roll a dice lowest score moves to it. I only wish someone did because it all frightens the living crap out of me.
Me? If I had my way i'd find a piece of land somewhere and say roll a dice lowest score moves to it.
I only wish someone did because it all frightens the living crap out of me. Quote by Lost
You are right Storm. I guess i'm just talking/thinking from the comfort of not living there and being in some way religeously or ethnically attached wondering why that piece of shitty land is that important.
Me? If I had my way i'd find a piece of land somewhere and say roll a dice lowest score moves to it.
That's the tragedy Lost, it's not a shitty land at all, It's a beautiful land. It's full of good and decent people for the most part, forced into a hell by forces they have no control over and surrounded by people who will do nothing to help them. We demonize one side or the other according to our prejudice and rejoice that it's nothing to do with us. That's the real tragedy of the middle east. :cry:
In edit: that may have sounded a bit like a dig at you Lost..it wasn't mate.
Master of Sex
Quote by Lost
You are right Storm. I guess i'm just talking/thinking from the comfort of not living there and being in some way religeously or ethnically attached wondering why that piece of shitty land is that important.
Me? If I had my way i'd find a piece of land somewhere and say roll a dice lowest score moves to it.
that`s what happened 60 years ago,only problem was, the fathers of the "terrorists" used to own the land ..
Quote by Stormwalker
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might of Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of a laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
Hi storm think it was me that used the term cowardly.
I used it because the rockets are fired indiscriminately and find innocent civilian victims.I would respect the use of these weapons if they targettted only military targets.
They are also fired from areas heavily populated with civilians which to me is devoid of ethical principle ...hiding behind the innocent if you like.
This is the reason cited by the Israeli's as to why they have to cause so much co-lateral my view Israel hides behind this excuse and it has little conscience when it comes to retaliation.
Storm I do understand the point you make about the courage of the few against overwhelming odds but courage should never be bequeathed on the innocent without their agreement.
As I stated previously I think the palestinians have enough moral capital to seek a political settlement they just need to be smart enough to use the power of humanity and garner effective worldwide support.
Below are figures that put into proportion the one sided nature of the conflict in terms of deathsinjuries in recent times.
Casualty figures for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from the OCHAoPt
Year Deaths Injuries
P'stinians Israelis P'stinians ISraeli
2005 216 48 1260 484
2006 678 25 3194 377
2007 396 13 1843 322
2008
Total 1290 86 6297 1183
Foxy Lady think you have it spot on.
Quote by Stormwalker
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might of Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of a laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
I'm sorry, I really take issue with this. Lets put this into context here, If you apply that logic to this situation, what else could it be applied to? We have people using whatever means they have to strike a blow at what they see as the enemy. So 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Madrid, the Homicide bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan all fall into a similar pot? It shouldn't matter a damn who is right or wrong, both sides are as cowardly as each other once the decision to target civilians is made.
And a 'few' rockets? Almost 50 a day is the figure I remember hearing, now fine most of them hit empty land, but why should that make any difference? People die on both sides.
Both sides are using the means they have to visit death and destruction on each other, there is no honour in that, there is no glory, more importantly there is no right. It's simple indiscriminate murder of civilians on both sides. Yes an awful lot more Gazan's appear to die than Israeli's, that doesn't make it any different though and it sure as hell does not offer one side more of an excuse for their actions than the other.
As for the rest of your post, are the Israeli's practising genocide in Gaza? Are there Israeli death camps? How many Gazan's have the Israeli's systematically murdered? How many times has Israel been attacked by it's neighbours since its inception?
It's all spin.
Always struck me as funny, the time when the Egyptian border was stormed by Gazan's, I don't know if you remember the news reports at the time, but for a people supposedley so down trodden and close to starvation how many luxury items (TV's, new vehicles, cigarettes, etc etc) were coming across the border rather than food and medicines.
It's a bullshit situation, perpetrated for years by the international community and imho encouraged by the backers of both sides. The U.S. and Iran.
The solution, I don't think there is one as things stand.
Get ready to watch the Middle East burn, because I think that's where this will end.
Quote by Stormwalker
And can we stop calling the Palestinian fighters "cowards" please. I think that anyone who fights the armed might of Israel with a few rockets and mortars whilst under the glare of a laser guided bomb dropping from an F16 is a braver man than most of us.
It is very easy to be brave when the people who will suffer from your "fighting" are not soldiers.
They would be brave if they fought from a battleground with no civilians. But they fight from areas with civilians to "protect" them. They then launch weapons into civilian areas, from civilian areas.
They have support from Iran and Syria.
The Israelis have support from the USA.
If neither side had support from any major power, then the Israeli armed forces would win, hands down.
Israel has had the capacity to produce nuclear weapons for over 40 years, there is no doubt in many peoples minds that, rather than lose a conflict, Israel would use nuclear weapons.
In any case, I fail to see how a discussion on a minor sex site is going to solve a complex, deep-rooted problem.
Other than please Mr GnV.
I also used the term " cowards ". The reason? Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas, where they KNOW Israel will not fire back into. If that is not cowardice, then I do not know what is.
What really angered me today though was when I heard that the USA and the Uk, had ordered a ceasefire. Who the fuck are they to order anything? Are these two countries not just as guilty as Israel?
The USA has been a war monger for decades, and are currently occupying Iraq and Afganistan. So for them to order anyone to do anything, is double standard hypocrisy at it's worst.
What really angered me today though was when I heard that the USA and the Uk, had ordered a ceasefire. Who the fuck are they to order anything? Are these two countries not just as guilty as Israel?
The USA has been a war monger for decades, and are currently occupying Iraq and Afganistan. So for them to order anyone to do anything, is double standard hypocrisy at it's worst.
just a quickie lol. the israelis n the west hate hamas in my mind they would love a puppet regime in palestine .its a control thing , look back in history its always happened. i myself abhor violence of any kind and wish all the peoples of the middle east a brighter future. its only hope but if you dont have hope you dont dare. love to all ste xxxx
Quote by kentswingers777
I also used the term " cowards ". The reason? Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas, where they KNOW Israel will not fire back into. If that is not cowardice, then I do not know what is.
What really angered me today though was when I heard that the USA and the Uk, had ordered a ceasefire. Who the fuck are they to order anything? Are these two countries not just as guilty as Israel?
The USA has been a war monger for decades, and are currently occupying Iraq and Afganistan. So for them to order anyone to do anything, is double standard hypocrisy at it's worst.
The tactic of firing rockets from built up, populated areas is a tactic that is used all the time in Iraq by insurgents. Why? Simple. If the insurgents where to fight face to face using conventional tactics then they would lose hands down. So they resort to these rocket attacks and road side bombings because they have a reasonable succes rate with little risk to themselves.
Like i've said before these people are driven by religion. A religion they have been fed on since birth in most cases. A religion which encourages suicide bombings against there enemies.
Before everyone starts briefing me up Im well aware that Islam is a very tollerant religion, however, it is widely open to interpretation hense the reason it breeds such fanatacism.
I very much doubt you are going to change there religious beliefes anytime soon.
No i don't agree with these tactics but im not in there situation and when your on the outside of the gold fish bowl looking in then it's alway's easy to make assumptions and judgements on other people's actions.
Who knows what you would be capable of or would do when cornered. It's obviously hard for us to understand because we have no concept of what is at stake because we are not in their situation.
Quote by kentswingers777
Hamas fire rockets from civilian areas, where they KNOW Israel will not fire back into. If that is not cowardice, then I do not know what is.
That is your opinion. My opinion is that you don’t know the word cowardice. These people are fighting for a reason and they go against the supreme military power in the area. They know Israel will fire back into the civilian areas to kill them, yet they carry on fighting. Hammas have tuppence hapenny rockets and personal weapons, the Israelites have guided rockets and smart bombs.
I would call them misguided in their beliefs, but not a coward.
Insurgency has been the weapon of the army/people without the military power. Examples in modern times would be Iraq and Afghanistan, in the past it would be the French Resistance and the British Chindits.
Quote by Chris-1977
The tactic of firing rockets from built up, populated areas is a tactic that is used all the time in Iraq by insurgents. Why? Simple. If the insurgents where to fight face to face using conventional tactics then they would lose hands down. So they resort to these rocket attacks and road side bombings because they have a reasonable succes rate with little risk to themselves.
That is the basis of guerilla warfare. If the two opposing sides had the same equipment and numbers then a conventional war would happen. It is only when one is weaker does guerilla warfare breakout.
But a guerilla has been part of the British armoury since war started. It was the Spanish Guerillas that killed more French in Spain than the whole of the British Army. We use them and applaud their tactics when they fight for us but then say they are terrible when they fight against us.
Dave_Notts
Master of Sex
The variable noun springs to mind:
I am a patriot,
You are a freedom fighter,
He is a terrorist.
It all depends on your point of view - which end of the howitzer you're on.
I am a patriot,
You are a freedom fighter,
He is a terrorist.
It all depends on your point of view - which end of the howitzer you're on.
Am pished but ....I am afraid to say that if I was in Palestinian situation then maybe violence would be one of the only ways we could garner negotiating strength by bringing the worlds and Israel's attention to a neverending struggle. After all it worked for the Irish didn't it ?
Then I'd sober up and realise I could do it without violence by effective communication to the world of the plight Iwas in .
Happy new year
Then I'd sober up and realise I could do it without violence by effective communication to the world of the plight Iwas in .
Happy new year
Master of Sex
nelson mandela is a convicted terrorist,according to the regime in power back then,now the world thinks him a hero.
Sex God
Go back 2,000 years and at various points in the intervening history both sides fight over historical precedents.
'The West' carve up Palestine after WW2 and give the Jews a 'home.' The Arabs are outraged and the Isreali's feel that they are back to their historical home. Both sides claim the land as their own but it just depends how far back in history you want to go.
Personally, my sympathy is with the Arabs who fight Tanks with slingshots in ironic modern versions of David V Goliath. My admiration is with Israel who always take decisive and robust action to protect themselves.
A previous poster was slated for suggesting that no one on this forum was qualified to offer really informed opinion. I agree with that poster because the attitudes and engendered religious fervour that infects all of the fanatical factions in that area can never really be appreciated unless you experience it first hand.
I was told once by a very well educated University graduate and practicing lawyer in Basra that the people who lived across the water (in Iran) were descendants of pure evil and genetically pre-disposed to violence and hatred. This attitude was rooted so deeply in him because the same attitudes had been passed down from generation to generation over hundreds of years and this conviction far outweighed any personal and logical thought that really - it could not possibly be true. Multiply this kind of thinking across the religious divides and countries and the scale of the problem really hits home. It is very easy for us to say stop looking backwards and look into the future but that is simply not how things work in an area where even the most basic of every day living tasks are rooted in historical religious beliefs - on all sides.
The answer ? ........................
'The West' carve up Palestine after WW2 and give the Jews a 'home.' The Arabs are outraged and the Isreali's feel that they are back to their historical home. Both sides claim the land as their own but it just depends how far back in history you want to go.
Personally, my sympathy is with the Arabs who fight Tanks with slingshots in ironic modern versions of David V Goliath. My admiration is with Israel who always take decisive and robust action to protect themselves.
A previous poster was slated for suggesting that no one on this forum was qualified to offer really informed opinion. I agree with that poster because the attitudes and engendered religious fervour that infects all of the fanatical factions in that area can never really be appreciated unless you experience it first hand.
I was told once by a very well educated University graduate and practicing lawyer in Basra that the people who lived across the water (in Iran) were descendants of pure evil and genetically pre-disposed to violence and hatred. This attitude was rooted so deeply in him because the same attitudes had been passed down from generation to generation over hundreds of years and this conviction far outweighed any personal and logical thought that really - it could not possibly be true. Multiply this kind of thinking across the religious divides and countries and the scale of the problem really hits home. It is very easy for us to say stop looking backwards and look into the future but that is simply not how things work in an area where even the most basic of every day living tasks are rooted in historical religious beliefs - on all sides.
The answer ? ........................
Quote by kentswingers777
nelson mandela is a convicted terrorist,according to the regime in power back then,now the world thinks him a hero.
Yes funny that one.
Maybe in 20 years time Mugabi will be viewed in the same light?
History is a funny thing.
It is "bloody" funny and Mugabi I bet would be written in the positive if his party stays in power.
Some old Greek or Roman once wrote that history is written by the victor.......that is why these people seem to be heros.
I read Mandelas autobiography and what he wrote in there spelt out he was a terrorist. He would have been my hero if he had not resorted to terrorism.
My heroes are Ruth (never gave up her seat), Gandhi and the two Martin Luther Kings. (There are plenty others but for getting things done without resorting to terrorism they are my tops)
Dave_Notts
