london riots

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
tell me why didnt the police go in ????
have you thought that while peoples house's,cars and business burned the police stood by
just maybe to champion their cause regarding the cuts to the forces

Load of rubbish Lizzy
They didn't go in as it is possesions.......things..........money.......this can all be replaced. Nothing is worth risking a life......except to save another.
Dave_Notts

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts

tell me why didnt the police go in ????
have you thought that while peoples house's,cars and business burned the police stood by
just maybe to champion their cause regarding the cuts to the forces

Load of rubbish Lizzy
They didn't go in as it is possesions.......things..........money.......this can all be replaced. Nothing is worth risking a life......except to save another.
Dave_Notts
really dave so the people that jumped out of burning houses were just possesions dave
interesting point of view loon

10 Aug 2011

Quote by neilinleeds
As for escalation, if they keep at it then bringing in the TA will make them think twice. No kid is stupid enough to throw rocks at someone with a gun, who knows how to use it and can do. If they are stupid enough, then they deserve to get shot and so help thin out the gene pool.
Note: I don't condone the killing of children or youngsters, but it merely stands as a symbol of what it takes to bring the youth of today back into line and be a part of society and the community that is now taking an active stand against them.

Dewi, you're not the only one advocating putting armed soldiers on to the streets, so not singling you out particularly, but seems to me though that some are losing all sense of perspective. Yes the riots are disturbing for those living in the area, yes it's shit that business owners have had their livelihoods attacked, but at the end of the day it's mostly a load of bloody kids taking advantage of the fact that the police, for whatever reason, have not been properly prepared for this. That's all. It's not the end of society as we know it FGS.
The police over recent days have coped better I think, and so they should, cos if the police service are unable to deal with low-level disorder of this sort ((( and I am aware that there were deaths last night, but that doesn't mean it's still not low-level ))) consisting mostly of sporadic, opportunistic looting conducted by teenagers who think it's all just a big bluddy laugh, God help us if real politically-motivated civil disorder breaks out at some point, but putting the army out onto the streets to deal with it does seem like an enormous over-reaction, and it's a tactic that has previously failed where tried, as has been pointed out.
N x x x ;)
I respect your views, but note that it's only with an escalation of violence that I advocate escalating a response.
As it's turned out, sticking 16,000 officers on the streets in London has done the trick and there's been little if any disturbance in the capital. I myself have seen 3 police vans and 4 officers in Clapham Junction during the daytime, something that's a rarity in any other time.
If the violence had continued and pushed the police beyond breaking point in their ability to deal with it, then I'm sure the possibility of the TA would have been voiced in Parliament. However, this is all getting into hypothetical situations now.

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Starlight
*snips some massive ramble wildly off anything I was actually saying*

Starlight, if you'd read my post properly, instead of imagining to yourself things I did not say, you would have realised that I quite clearly and specifically stated that while I have every sympathy for those personally affected, having lived in Harehills in 2001 watching Harehills Road burn from the comfort of my own home not 50 yards away, somewhat apprehensive for me windows and the car parked outside, bigger picture, putting squaddies onto the streets to deal with the situation would be a massively escalating and completely unnecessary over-reaction. That's all. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I am somehow seeking to excuse people? dunno

As for how I'd deal with it, much as the police are dealing with it. What would I do to those taking part? Nick 'em, charge 'em with an appropriate offence, and lock 'em up if the individual offence is deemed serious enough. Same thing we've always done Starlight? confused

Quote by Dave__Notts
tell me why didnt the police go in ????
have you thought that while peoples house's,cars and business burned the police stood by
just maybe to champion their cause regarding the cuts to the forces

Load of rubbish Lizzy
They didn't go in as it is possesions.......things..........money.......this can all be replaced. Nothing is worth risking a life......except to save another.
Dave_Notts
Thanks Dave. Just saved me a shed load of typing. Repeating it verbatim would be redundant! ;)
Rob, there's an interest article I came across today , commented on by an ex copper, that offers reasons perhaps why the police didn't go in too heavy, in a way that might have escalated rather than contained things, that has nothing to do with this idly standing by, self-serving agenda you seem to imagine exists in the collective mind of the Police service? :?
N x x x ;)

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
really neil
im sure those that have worked all year for a tv or a sofa and the little indian off licence in peckham will take great comfort that its just a group of kids taking advantage .
especially when all their worldly goods, houses and hard worked business have been lost forever
sorry to tell you this fella but a lot of people that lost out here were people like you and me and probably everyone else on the forums not just multi nationals
how the fuck is that off licence owner gonna serve the same people who robbed and looted aswell as smashed up his business and stay calm. ffs neil at least think about what your
posting and not the first dribble that comes to mind
im not sure you`d be posting this tripe if you'd been affected directly mate
tell me why didnt the police go in ????
have you thought that while peoples house's,cars and business burned the police stood by
just maybe to champion their cause regarding the cuts to the forces
so a political riot is going to be worse is it loads of thugs shouting torys out !!! have you got a grip of reality ?????

I tend to agree with what rob says here.
it is also very interesting that yesterday, Ben said that he had sent Minx out for for a 'long shop' as she was so distressed at the sights on the TV. That posting seems to have now been removed but replaced with one favouring NIL's missive.
Can't think why.... rolleyes

10 Aug 2011

Quote by neilinleeds
Starlight, if you'd read my post properly

sorry nell i must have read your wordings wrong.

Quote by neilinleeds
Yes the riots are disturbing for those living in the area

disturbing? i think peeple living outside the area would possibly say distrurbing. those actually living in the area in the front line would probably use another word like fucking terrifing.

Quote by neilinleeds
bloody kids taking advantage of the fact that the police, for whatever reason, have not been properly prepared for this

sorry nell
is the fact it is only kids makes things somehow not as bad as say if it was full grown adults?

Quote by neilinleeds
It's not the end of society as we know it FGS.

some peeple caught up in it may well not agree with that. still we was not there in the thick of it so who knows. :sad:

Quote by neilinleeds
cos if the police service are unable to deal with low-level disorder of this sort

are you reely being serious? low level? how much of the news did you actualy watch nell? not much by the sound of things.

Quote by neilinleeds
putting the army out onto the streets to deal with it does seem like an enormous over-reaction

i do not agree and maybe shops that are burnt to the ground and three peeple killed may well not have happened if the army had been there. you have alredy said that the police could not cope with this low level so why not have the army in to help them? surely that would make the police job easier and help the very peeple the police are there to protect, and that is the public. you know nell the ones that have lost everything. there homes and there busineses and there posessions and in some sad cases, there lives.
sorry nell maybe it is just the wordings you use that make it seam a bit like it is no big deal and that we as a society are making to big a fuss out of it all. still they are only kids nell FGS

10 Aug 2011

sorry nell i must have read your wordings wrong.

No need to apologise Starlight, it's easily done. :P
N x x x

10 Aug 2011

Quote by neilinleeds
Thanks Dave. Just saved me a shed load of typing. Repeating it verbatim would be redundant! ;)
Rob, there's an interest article I came across today re: the psychology of crowds, commented on by an ex copper, that offers reasons perhaps why the police didn't go in too heavy, in a way that might have escalated rather than contained things, that has nothing to do with this idly standing by, self-serving agenda you seem to imagine exists in the collective mind of the Police service?
N x x x ;)

thanks for that neil you might not have read this bit
And herein lies the problem. The psychology of crowd control is largely based on the policing of demonstrations and sports events where the majority of people will give the police the benefit of the doubt andassume their status as a legitimate force.
where as these kids did not im afraid the police`s main objective is to protect the Innocent and the public i have yet to see some evidence of this
and they failed miserably
many shop keepers were beaten up and peoples homes were set alight and the images of watching it live while people tried to make escapes from burning houses not to helped out by the police or the fire brigade (stood some 100 yard away)but to be confronted by hoddies and looters at their doors and windows made me sick to the stomach
sort of leaves a grand canyon size hole in dave`s argument

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
sort of leaves a grand canyon size hole in dave`s argument

No hole Lizzy........just a different perspective. I do not think that possesions are worth a life, as you disagree with me then I can only assume you feel that possesions are worth more than life.
I see 2500 police on day one against how many rioters? Resources only allow so much to be done
2nd and 3rd day 6000 police against how many rioters? Once again, resources only allow so much to be done
4th day 16000 police and can now deal with more as more resources are made available
On the first 3 days there would always be incidents that could not be policed, but what they have done is photograph before, during and after. They are now going around and picking up the rioters, with the help of the community by them identifying them.
I agree with this type of policing.
Dave_Notts

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
sort of leaves a grand canyon size hole in dave`s argument

No hole Lizzy........just a different perspective. I do not think that possesions are worth a life, as you disagree with me then I can only assume you feel that possesions are worth more than life.
I see 2500 police on day one against how many rioters? Resources only allow so much to be done
2nd and 3rd day 6000 police against how many rioters? Once again, resources only allow so much to be done
4th day 16000 police and can now deal with more as more resources are made available
On the first 3 days there would always be incidents that could not be policed, but what they have done is photograph before, during and after. They are now going around and picking up the rioters, with the help of the community by them identifying them.
I agree with this type of policing.
Dave_Notts
really dave you seem to be avoiding the the people who were in harms way here not to mention the 3 dead guys in Birmingham or are they still possessions ???

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
really dave you seem to be avoiding the the people who were in harms way here not to mention the 3 dead guys in Birmingham or are they still possessions ???

I wondered where the 3 dead came from. I thought we were talking about the London Riots as in the title :doh: silly me........I should have known your thoughts Lizzy rolleyes

Would you like to show me a link of these acts or give an account of what actually happened
Dave_Notts

10 Aug 2011

Quote by neilinleeds
sorry nell i must have read your wordings wrong.

No need to apologise Starlight, it's easily done. :P
N x x x
:laughabove::laughabove:
very good nell
:cheers:

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
really dave you seem to be avoiding the the people who were in harms way here not to mention the 3 dead guys in Birmingham or are they still possessions ???

I wondered where the 3 dead came from. I thought we were talking about the London Riots as in the title :doh: silly me........I should have known your thoughts Lizzy rolleyes

Would you like to show me a link of these acts or give an account of what actually happened
Dave_Notts
here dave if you wish to be pedantic

i can find you a lot more if you want banghead

you might wish to watch a little of the news dave app this happened 50 yards from the police line according to the evening news

10 Aug 2011

Just found it.
I feel sorry for the people who lost their lives. They and about 80 others decided to guard their property and criminals ran the 3 over in a car.
My thoughts here are that I would have walked away and let them do it as my life is worth more than possesions. The three young men did not and they paid the ultimate price. My advice to them would have been to walk and live. I am sad for their families and the three young men.
However I still stand by my opinion that life is worth more than money. This incident actually reinforces it than changes it Lizzy
Do you suggest that a line of police officers could stop a speeding car. Sometimes your arguments do not make sense Lizzy
Dave_Notts

10 Aug 2011

here's a few examples of the result of armed force used against rioters

From .....
Just so you know what you're asking for
Yay for us we could be just like Iran

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
sort of leaves a grand canyon size hole in dave`s argument

No hole Lizzy........just a different perspective. I do not think that possesions are worth a life, as you disagree with me then I can only assume you feel that possesions are worth more than life.
snip
Dave_Notts
MY possessions are worth a damned site more than THEIR life. If someone threatens my property (let alone my family!) they will be met with as much force as I can muster. I worked for everything I own - every single last item. I studied at school, I made an effort. They had the same opportunities I had - to piss away an education and then claim some kind of 'entitlement' based on deprivation makes me want to spit. This is the UK not East Africa - THAT is deprivation and suffering. Not having a 42 inch TV is NOT deprivation - watching your child die from diarroeah IS.

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
here's a few examples of the result of armed force used against rioters

From .........

From....

From .....
Just so you know what you're asking for
Yay for us we could be just like Iran

You have to admit that's taking the extreme end of the argument and presenting it as a possible outcome.
They've had troops in Northern Ireland for 30 years and aside from some atrocities and tragedies, it's hardly been a long history of military violence and zeal

10 Aug 2011

Quote by foxylady2209
MY possessions are worth a damned site more than THEIR life. If someone threatens my property (let alone my family!) they will be met with as much force as I can muster. I worked for everything I own - every single last item. I studied at school, I made an effort. They had the same opportunities I had - to piss away an education and then claim some kind of 'entitlement' based on deprivation makes me want to spit. This is the UK not East Africa - THAT is deprivation and suffering. Not having a 42 inch TV is NOT deprivation - watching your child die from diarroeah IS.

Sad that life has become so cheap in the 21st Century. £400 for a TV and someone is willing to kill or be killed for it.
Dave_Notts

10 Aug 2011

Quote by Foxylady
MY possessions are worth a damned site more than THEIR life.

Mine are not. They're just things I've managed to buy over the years. They're not even insured, cos in the area I currently live in the insurance companies are just taking the piss with the premiums, and too expensive. Luckily for me I can afford to lose them. My material possessions mean nothing to me. They are absolutely worth less than the life of a thinking, feeling human being, whether that's mine or theirs.

Quote by Foxylady
If someone threatens my property (let alone my family!) they will be met with as much force as I can muster.

You see Foxy, if someone threatened my life, or Gem's, I'd go all out to take them down first with the first thing that came to hand, without hesitation, fully prepared to take the consequences of my actions. Probably, not being very well skilled at the whole violence thing I'd be piss poor at it, and would lose. Not gonna risk losing though for the sake of an Xbox and a telly, or even a presumably insured house, no matter how hard I worked to afford them in the first place?
N x x x ;)

11 Aug 2011

Quote by poundindigo
You have to admit that's taking the extreme end of the argument and presenting it as a possible outcome.
They've had troops in Northern Ireland for 30 years and aside from some atrocities and tragedies, it's hardly been a long history of military violence and zeal

Really ??? Do you know who the following people are ??
Patrick ('Paddy') Doherty (31)
Gerald Donaghy (17)
John ('Jackie') Duddy (17)
Hugh Gilmour (17)
Michael Kelly (17)
Michael McDaid (20)
Kevin McElhinney (17)
Bernard ('Barney') McGuigan (41)
Gerald McKinney (35)
William ('Willie') McKinney (26)
William Nash (19)
James ('Jim') Wray (22)
John Young (17)

11 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
MY possessions are worth a damned site more than THEIR life. If someone threatens my property (let alone my family!) they will be met with as much force as I can muster. I worked for everything I own - every single last item. I studied at school, I made an effort. They had the same opportunities I had - to piss away an education and then claim some kind of 'entitlement' based on deprivation makes me want to spit. This is the UK not East Africa - THAT is deprivation and suffering. Not having a 42 inch TV is NOT deprivation - watching your child die from diarroeah IS.

Sad that life has become so cheap in the 21st Century. £400 for a TV and someone is willing to kill or be killed for it.
Dave_Notts
and the fact that police do little or nothing to stop it :sad:

11 Aug 2011

Quote by Dave__Notts
MY possessions are worth a damned site more than THEIR life. If someone threatens my property (let alone my family!) they will be met with as much force as I can muster. I worked for everything I own - every single last item. I studied at school, I made an effort. They had the same opportunities I had - to piss away an education and then claim some kind of 'entitlement' based on deprivation makes me want to spit. This is the UK not East Africa - THAT is deprivation and suffering. Not having a 42 inch TV is NOT deprivation - watching your child die from diarroeah IS.

Sad that life has become so cheap in the 21st Century. £400 for a TV and someone is willing to kill or be killed for it.
Dave_Notts
The sad fact is Dave, that in the case of the 3 young men killed in Birmingham, it's not about a £400 tv, it's about shops full of them and other goods which the hard working traders do not have insured because they could just not afford the premiums. There, and in other places around the Country, businesses will go under as their stock has been filched with little or no prospect of ever getting reparation. That's why I believe they were there on the streets of Birmingham. Protecting what is right. The Police couldn't do it as they were stretched to the limit. It's so easy to say you would just standby and watch your goods and chattels being robbed by mobs but when communities stand together as they did in Birmingham to protect what is right, I have to say I was impressed. I knew that area very well in the early 1970's and it just goes to show that amongst the Asian communities around Winson Green there are some really decent, hard working people who don't deserve to be so badly treated.

11 Aug 2011

it seems a fair few of those arrested are actually in employment dunno

11 Aug 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
it seems a fair few of those arrested are actually in employment

Bit like the student riots then... nothing to do with Government policy or so called austerity - just down right lawlessness and a bit of fun rolleyes

11 Aug 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

You have to admit that's taking the extreme end of the argument and presenting it as a possible outcome.
They've had troops in Northern Ireland for 30 years and aside from some atrocities and tragedies, it's hardly been a long history of military violence and zeal

Really ??? Do you know who the following people are ??
Patrick ('Paddy') Doherty (31)
Gerald Donaghy (17)
John ('Jackie') Duddy (17)
Hugh Gilmour (17)
Michael Kelly (17)
Michael McDaid (20)
Kevin McElhinney (17)
Bernard ('Barney') McGuigan (41)
Gerald McKinney (35)
William ('Willie') McKinney (26)
William Nash (19)
James ('Jim') Wray (22)
John Young (17)
Yes, I do.
I also know what I said, and that took into account such events as Bloody Sunday and other tragedies.
My point was that the army has hardly spent their time firing at every protest that happened in NI.
Even the statistics show that the army killed less than 10% of the total dead attributed to the violence, and God knows how many of those were in self-defence when being shot at.
It seems that society doesn't understand that freedoms aren't a God given right. They're things that have been earned by generations of suffering and fighting so that we can have the right to protest etc. It doesn't mean that people can go on protests and riots without expecting consequences, be it legal or military.

11 Aug 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

You have to admit that's taking the extreme end of the argument and presenting it as a possible outcome.
They've had troops in Northern Ireland for 30 years and aside from some atrocities and tragedies, it's hardly been a long history of military violence and zeal

Really ??? Do you know who the following people are ??
Patrick ('Paddy') Doherty (31)
Gerald Donaghy (17)
John ('Jackie') Duddy (17)
Hugh Gilmour (17)
Michael Kelly (17)
Michael McDaid (20)
Kevin McElhinney (17)
Bernard ('Barney') McGuigan (41)
Gerald McKinney (35)
William ('Willie') McKinney (26)
William Nash (19)
James ('Jim') Wray (22)
John Young (17)
do YOU know who these are mr staggers?

sometimes violence gets fought with violence.
soldiers get stoned and shot at then soldiers open fire on those peeple. those same peeple on bloody sunday that were there when the violence started were more than likely involved in the likes of the omagh bombing or the harrods bombing etc.
peeple getting killed are not killed just by soldiers but by thugs and terrorists who hide behind masks or plant bombs and give false information as to where the bomb is.
On 10 August Bombardier Paul Challenor became the first soldier to be killed by the Provisional IRA in Derry, when he was shot by a sniper on the Creggan estate. A further six soldiers had been killed in Derry by mid-December 1971. 1,932 rounds were fired at the British Army, who also faced 211 explosions and 180 nail bombs and who fired 364 rounds in return. this took place BEFORE bloody sunday mr staggers. and the soldiers were shot fact to face i presume? no by snipers hiding in the shadows.
a very unfair argument mr staggers i am afraid/
your point agin mr staggers is?

11 Aug 2011

Syria: Riots stop when authorities use tanks
Belfast: Riots stop as police fire rubber bullets
Greece: End to riots as police use water cannon and tear-gas
England: Riots stop.................because it's raining...lol

11 Aug 2011

Quote by starlightcouple
do YOU know who these are mr staggers?

sometimes violence gets fought with violence.
soldiers get stoned and shot at then soldiers open fire on those peeple. those same peeple on bloody sunday that were there when the violence started were more than likely involved in the likes of the omagh bombing or the harrods bombing etc.
peeple getting killed are not killed just by soldiers but by thugs and terrorists who hide behind masks or plant bombs and give false information as to where the bomb is.
On 10 August Bombardier Paul Challenor became the first soldier to be killed by the Provisional IRA in Derry, when he was shot by a sniper on the Creggan estate. A further six soldiers had been killed in Derry by mid-December 1971. 1,932 rounds were fired at the British Army, who also faced 211 explosions and 180 nail bombs and who fired 364 rounds in return. this took place BEFORE bloody sunday mr staggers. and the soldiers were shot fact to face i presume? no by snipers hiding in the shadows.
a very unfair argument mr staggers i am afraid/
your point agin mr staggers is?

My point was and is that when rioters are faced with an armed force they do not ,as has been suggested, back down they have a tendency to get shot ... As to yours I have no idea , it seems that you think the murder of those protesters on bloody sunday was somehow justified ...the recently ended inquiry found that there were no shots fired (if I remember correctly) by any one other than the army on bloody Sunday ... so what is your point
My point is that if you have the ingredients for a Victoria sponge you can mix them ,alter the quantities,change how you cook them but you will never make a chocolate cake with them ... If what you really want is a chocolate cake you have to change what goes in the mix
It is well past time for us to find a new recipe

11 Aug 2011

Quote by sara2010
Syria: Riots stop when authorities use tanks
I was under the impression that protest is ongoing
Belfast: Riots stop as police fire rubber bullets
I was under the impression that negotiation had done that ... they changed the recipe they were using
Greece: End to riots as police use water cannon and tear-gas
England: Riots stop.................because it's raining...lol

I do understand and get the joke ..... but I wouldn't want any of our co-forumites to take these as the truth

11 Aug 2011

Quote by poundindigo
Yes, I do.
I also know what I said, and that took into account such events as Bloody Sunday and other tragedies.
My point was that the army has hardly spent their time firing at every protest that happened in NI.
Even the statistics show that the army killed less than 10% of the total dead attributed to the violence, and God knows how many of those were in self-defence when being shot at.
It seems that society doesn't understand that freedoms aren't a God given right. They're things that have been earned by generations of suffering and fighting so that we can have the right to protest etc. It doesn't mean that people can go on protests and riots without expecting consequences, be it legal or military.

So to sum up ....1: send the army in they probably wont kill anyone but if they do that's ok
2:Protesting is alright but don't get provoked by anyone one or see 1
To use the military in the current riots would set a dangerous precedent, next time it may be you protesting about the latest tax increase or marching against rioters .... things you see get easier with repetition ,slaughter enough newborn children and it becomes custom. What the current situation requires is rational reasoned action not knee jerk reactions
There was an interesting interview with an ex police chief the other night on P.M on radio 4 where he explained why water cannon,baton rounds,tasers etc. would be next to useless in policing these riots ..... I shall try to find it for you