I can only type very slowly with one finger so won't make a case for or against either. But I'm curious to know, who Swinging Heaven members would rather have for Prime Minister. This is also my first poll on here, but I know that if there was a "neither" option it would be a no contest. Therefore I am looking for one of two possible answers. Who would you prefer as Prime Minister? Gordon Brown or Margaret Thatcher in her prime?
gordan brown..is not doing a very good job i am first to accept....but he has a slight excuse of global situation don't exactly help him. maggie on other hand....please lets not forget she closed every last pit in britain...there were still 3 left in cannock until she thought it would be better to import cheap polish coal. lets not forget that the current fad of home ownership and greed was started and fueled by maggie. lets not forget the poll tax riots. Lets not forget 30% interest rates on black wednesday.... whoever we vote for next time, please lets not forget what a mess maggie left industy and this country in.
Bottler Brown is an unelected PM. The rules may have made him PM but the electorate did not vote him in. Here was a man who was chancellor for ten years yet could not foresee the biggest financial meltdown in history. I think the guy should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Maggie. He in my opinion is leaderless, clueless and completly useless. He will go down in Labout history as the man who sank Labour to it's lowest level ever, next year when election time comes around. As for Maggie well....in a recent poll she was voted the second greatest leader this country has seen. Only second behind Churchill who with his magnitude and leadership, helped to win over the Nazis in the second world war. Maggie took this country from the gutter after a Labour Government and turned this country into a super power again. A country to be feared ( ask Argentina ) and a country envied. A leader who was sick and tired of watching the unions destroy this country with their every day strikes. The winter of discontent brought about by Labours union side kicks. She smashed nutty Scargil and it's militant band of shirkers. She enabled a few people to buy their own homes, under the right to buy scheme, where they would never been able to afford that. Yes the poll tax was very unpopular but the thinking behind it was right. It was only the ammount to pay that angered people. It is people that use the amenities, not houses. When Maggie goes to the Paliament in the sky there will be a full state funeral, and the only other PM to get that was Churchill. A great leader and a great stateswoman, until those backstabbers knifed her in the back. A young Maggie would not tolerate half of this Liberal bollox this Government has allowed and openly encouraged. So for me Brown is not even fit to wipe her muddy shoes. Any guesses who I voted for in the poll?
Quote by deancannock gordan brown..is not doing a very good job i am first to accept....but he has a slight excuse of global situation don't exactly help him. maggie on other hand....please lets not forget she closed every last pit in britain...there were still 3 left in cannock until she thought it would be better to import cheap polish coal. lets not forget that the current fad of home ownership and greed was started and fueled by maggie. lets not forget the poll tax riots. Lets not forget 30% interest rates on black wednesday.... whoever we vote for next time, please lets not forget what a mess maggie left industy and this country in.
Interest rates actually started at 10% on Black Wednesday and were increased to 12%........the Chancelor intended to raise them to 15% as a temporary measure later in the day but the Government decided to withdraw from the ERM by the close of the day and interest rates closed at 12% and were back to 10% the following day. They were never at 30%....so pretty difficult to forget that they were.
Quote by Max777 gordan brown..is not doing a very good job i am first to accept....but he has a slight excuse of global situation don't exactly help him. maggie on other hand....please lets not forget she closed every last pit in britain...there were still 3 left in cannock until she thought it would be better to import cheap polish coal. lets not forget that the current fad of home ownership and greed was started and fueled by maggie. lets not forget the poll tax riots. Lets not forget 30% interest rates on black wednesday.... whoever we vote for next time, please lets not forget what a mess maggie left industy and this country in.
Interest rates actually started at 10% on Black Wednesday and were increased to 12%........the Chancelor intended to raise them to 15% as a temporary measure later in the day but the Government decided to withdraw from the ERM by the close of the day and interest rates closed at 12% and were back to 10% the following day. They were never at 30%....so pretty difficult to forget that they were. Thankyou for putting that one right. I had to blink twice when I read that statement. I remember paying 15% interest on my mortgage, but never above that ammount.
Brown has decimated our pensions and all but killed off final salary pension schemes - we have gone from having a system that was once among the best in the world to something worse than third rate after he and pillaged pension funds ... and presided over the biggest financial meltdown in history ... he certainly doesn't get my vote here or when the election finally comes. The hated poll tax was Maggie's low point, and whilst I agree that unions did at the time wield far too much power and needed to be reined in, I do think things have gone too far and for the most part unions have been neutered - the balance needs to be shifted back to somewhere in between. At heart, I'm a Tory
my life under mt was awful, very little money even tho i was working hard, sometimes had to decide wether to pay bills or eat ! life under gb is far better for me and im the richest i have ever been therefore id vote for gb
Thatcher was what this country required at the time, a strong PM that was prepared to take on the unions. Britain was widely regarded as "the sick man of Europe" with an appalling industrial record. If Scargill had not been the arse that he was and had not been determined to bring the government down, the outcome of the UK's mining industry may have been somewhat different. Scargill was just as bloody minded as Thatcher and did as much damage to the mining industry as she did. Unfortunately, like all governments that are in power too long, Thatcher lost her way and had to go but to blame her for the greed of today is laughable. She may well have been instrumental in the sale of council houses but there is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to own their own home, the lack of new social housing has been a major factor in house price inflation. The current government has been in power for 10 years and has not addressed this problem. Also, the rise of the buy to let market has flourished under this government which has also helped stoke house price inflation. It's amazing that when Brown was Chancellor and enjoying what we now know was a mythical boom period, the Labour Government were quick to heap the praise for the boom onto the "prudent" chancellor but now that the reality has dawned, the problems are passed off as being due to " global situation". The cause of this global situation was entirely down to the reckless trading of banks and Brown was the major player in the complete deregulation of the banks in the UK, thus paving the way for the recklessness that ensued. The legacy of Brown ( and Blair) will live long after this generation, as our kids and then their kids will be still be paying for their mistakes.
Quote by Max777 Thatcher was what this country required at the time, a strong PM that was prepared to take on the unions. Britain was widely regarded as "the sick man of Europe" with an appalling industrial record. If Scargill had not been the arse that he was and had not been determined to bring the government down, the outcome of the UK's mining industry may have been somewhat different. Scargill was just as bloody minded as Thatcher and did as much damage to the mining industry as she did. Unfortunately, like all governments that are in power too long, Thatcher lost her way and had to go but to blame her for the greed of today is laughable. She may well have been instrumental in the sale of council houses but there is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to own their own home, the lack of new social housing has been a major factor in house price inflation. The current government has been in power for 10 years and has not addressed this problem. Also, the rise of the buy to let market has flourished under this government which has also helped stoke house price inflation. It's amazing that when Brown was Chancellor and enjoying what we now know was a mythical boom period, the Labour Government were quick to heap the praise for the boom onto the "prudent" chancellor but now that the reality has dawned, the problems are passed off as being due to " global situation". The cause of this global situation was entirely down to the reckless trading of banks and Brown was the major player in the complete deregulation of the banks in the UK, thus paving the way for the recklessness that ensued. The legacy of Brown ( and Blair) will live long after this generation, as our kids and then their kids will be still be paying for their mistakes.
Totally agree with all that. I was no fan of Maggie, i remember drinking champagne to toast her leaving Now i look back in amazement, thinking she was the best of the bunch :shock: She had a spine, and was good on the world stage, although not so good at home affairs. From hating her with a vengence, i have been known to utter recently, i wish Maggie was in power. I hang my head in shame, but it shows what a complete waste of space, Brown / Nu labour are.
Thatcher wont be going to the great Parlaiment in the sky she will be going straight down to help stoke the fires of hell for all the evil deeds she done to the poor and needy ,not to mention the hundreds of ppl who are in early graves through her actions The woman was an abomination and I will personally have drink when she is planted, and I wont apologise for the last remark.
Brown has less backbone than a jellyfish. Can i vote for Jeremy Clarkson or Joanna Lumley, at least they have opinions and some fire in them, GB is the political equivalent of having a fart and following through :yawn:
Quote by meat2pleaseu Brown has less backbone than a jellyfish. Can i vote for Jeremy Clarkson or Joanna Lumley, at least they have opinions and some fire in them, GB is the political equivalent of having a fart and following through :yawn:
You can lay the blame for the "boom to bust" on politicians if you like, but the blame should be laid on the people in this real world. We/you want everything, for nothing: If not nothing, then just a bit more. And not next year, but now. So by wanting to pay less for goods, and have high wages, the goods had to be made cheaply. Now...high wages and low production costs do not go with each other. So the goods are made abroad now. The results of this are quite simple. The economy has gone from one where manufacturing was (20 years ago) split 75%/25% between manufacturing/service to (now) 25/75 manufacturing/service. Perhaps it should be remembered that this global crisis (it's just a shortage of money supply really, not a crisis) was caused by people borrowing money they could not afford, and reneging on the dept. You can blame the banks if you like, or the politicians for having a gutless regulatory regime for the financial industry: But the real blame lies with................us. I've said this many times, and still nobody (anywhere) bothers to think about it. The people we elect are not the ones with power. That went a long time back. The unelected people who are there no matter which figurehead political system is elected are the ones who run the country and councils. The drive to "privatise" state industries (sic) was led by the realisation of the amount of money that would (eventually) be needed to pay pensions to those public servants. If you want dept to think about, think about a dept of one trillion pounds (that's one million, million pounds). That dept is the public service pension. It is the amount of money needed to pay the pensions of those retired public servants, and the ones who will retire, from 1-Jan-2009.
Quote by macread Thatcher wont be going to the great Parlaiment in the sky she will be going straight down to help stoke the fires of hell for all the evil deeds she done to the poor and needy ,not to mention the hundreds of ppl who are in early graves through her actions The woman was an abomination and I will personally have drink when she is planted, and I wont apologise for the last remark.
The present crisis was caused by banks giving loans which had a low interest rate for the first cpl of yrs and then soared to a rate that they knew could not be pby these same ppl but the greedy sellers were getting huge bonuses for doing so and even though the banks were well warned what was going to happen the greed took over now we all have to pay while those folk are sitting in luxury in my opinion the ones responsible should be locked up as they knew what would happen in the end.
Quote by kentswingers777 Here was a man who was chancellor for ten years yet could not foresee the biggest financial meltdown in history.
I'm not the greatest fan of brown.... but if you can tell me one person who did see the financial meltdown coming.... i'd love to know I think the guy should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Maggie. He in my opinion is leaderless, clueless and completly useless. He will go down in Labout history as the man who sank Labour to it's lowest level ever, next year when election time comes around.
you mean just as major was seen on the tory side then... the thing that blair and thatcher both had was they were smart enough to go when they did... history tells you in most democracys that after 10-12 years most people want change if only to freshen things up...... As for Maggie well....in a recent poll she was voted the second greatest leader this country has seen. Only second behind Churchill who with his magnitude and leadership, helped to win over the Nazis in the second world war. Maggie took this country from the gutter after a Labour Government and turned this country into a super power again. A country to be feared ( ask Argentina ) and a country envied. that has more to do with argentian nationalism and she was smart enough to call a snap general election on the back of that victory and used it to her advantage, maybe a valid reason to bring in fixed terms goverenments... but moving on..... A leader who was sick and tired of watching the unions destroy this country with their every day strikes. The winter of discontent brought about by Labours union side kicks. She smashed nutty Scargil and it's militant band of shirkers. and basically killed off the uk manufacturing base...coal,steel,the car industry,ship building to name four... if the door of blame can be placed from the UK being turned from a manufacturing ecomony to a service ecomony it can be her She enabled a few people to buy their own homes, under the right to buy scheme, where they would never been able to afford that. But instead of ploughing that money back into rebuilding houses to replace the houses that were now sold, she decided to cut the taxes of those who were the richest...... Yes the poll tax was very unpopular but the thinking behind it was right. It was only the ammount to pay that angered people. It is people that use the amenities, not houses.
yes, she loved it so much, she decided to test it out on the scots first.... very fair indeed!!! When Maggie goes to the Paliament in the sky there will be a full state funeral, and the only other PM to get that was Churchill. A great leader and a great stateswoman, until those backstabbers knifed her in the back. I love what frankie boyle said on "mock the week"... it may be the first time, that during the 21 gun salute, the guns may be pointed at the casket just to make sure shes dead!..... A young Maggie would not tolerate half of this Liberal bollox this Government has allowed and openly encouraged. So for me Brown is not even fit to wipe her muddy shoes. Any guesses who I voted for in the poll?
the bits in green redress the balance i think a bit.......
The trouble is Fabio is that this subject will always be talked about, and you either loved her or hated her. I hear all the time about how she killed off our manufactoring industries, are those the same ones that the unions were running into the ground already? What would it be like now if those same companies like steel and coal were operating in 2009 in this current financial meltdown? We would have had to bail them out too, as well as the banks. Whatver you or I might say about her, she had some guts and under her this country was envied and she had respect big time from other world leaders...plus she WAS voted in more than once by the electorate, unlike Brown who took up his seat from Blair, without one public vote. He will be out when the election comes around next year. Also whether we agree or not, she WILL be given a full state funeral when her time is up, and that to me tells me everything about her, for that has only ever been afforded once before, and we know to who and why that was. So obviously a lot of people hold her in the same regard as that once great man. Politicians come and go but very few will be remembered 100 years on, and I think people will still talk about her then, that is a true sign of a great leader.
British industry was killed by ineffective, inefficient, poorly educated and stupid management. Along with a lack of investment in new machinery and modern manufacturing regimes. Coal mining was killed-off by cheap eastern European and Australian coal. It's still cheaper to buy from abroad. We still, even with a Labour government, have not got a government that recognises that the country needs a manufacturing base. In 20/30 years time, when cheap goods are no longer available from abroad (or even sooner) that basic fact will be seen. It will be a bit late then. Anything run by a government, even itself, is inefficient and a waste of time and money. But since their income is guaranteed ..............................................
Quote by JTS British industry was killed by ineffective, inefficient, poorly educated and stupid management. There is some truth in this but overwhelmingly management was constrained by restrictive practices foisted on them by an all too powerful union base. Don't forget the unions brought down the labour govt. I recall the time when a workforce would walk out because an electrician had picked up a hammer to loosen nut on a distribution board ...cos nuts were fitters jobs.
Along with a lack of investment in new machinery and modern manufacturing regimes. Again investment in strike ridden industry frightened investors away... look up Derek Robinson ...champion of the working man at British Leyland. Coal mining was killed-off by cheap eastern European and Australian coal. It's still cheaper to buy from abroad. This is true but it's largely to do with the nature of the coal deposits we have left in this country which is basically deep mine coal whereas in Australia they just rake it off the top in open cast mines We still, even with a Labour government, have not got a government that recognises that the country needs a manufacturing base. Here JTS I totally agree with you. Manufacturing adds real value and creates real wealth and therefore allows the printing of new money as it is backed by a solid asset is totally short sighted of govmnts and thatchers was the same as all successive ones in not being more proactive in this field. We are completely undermining our future prosperity. Because of this I strongly believe people should consider leaving the uk. In 20/30 years time, when cheap goods are no longer available from abroad (or even sooner) that basic fact will be seen. It will be a bit late then. Anything run by a government, even itself, is inefficient and a waste of time and money. But since their income is guaranteed ..............................................
Oh And Fabio I know it's easy for anyone to claim they saw it coming but I used to sit in the pub every saturday afternoon 4 or 5 years ago with a mate and discuss how we were facing a major blip in the economy because the logic of the economics was totally out of kilter. In Fact my mate emigrated to Canada as he could see no future for himself in this country. Oh and if you dont believe me then Vince Cable also warned about the impending disaster too. Anyway back to the op GB has handicapped this country in so many ways most of which affect the less well off far greater than the wealthy. In fact if you look at the gap between the poor and the rich now ...Gordon has robbed from the poor and given to the rich. MT was far from perfect but she inherited an economy in dire financial straights which forced her to take some very unpopular decisions to get it back in control. She took her eye off the ball on manufacturing though as she believed the financial markets would underpin our economy .....how wrong she was and every successive primeminister too.
Quote by niceguysdoexist British industry was killed by ineffective, inefficient, poorly educated and stupid management. There is some truth in this but overwhelmingly management was constrained by restrictive practices foisted on them by an all too powerful union base. Don't forget the unions brought down the labour govt. I recall the time when a workforce would walk out because an electrician had picked up a hammer to loosen nut on a distribution board ...cos nuts were fitters jobs.
Along with a lack of investment in new machinery and modern manufacturing regimes. Again investment in strike ridden industry frightened investors away... look up Derek Robinson ...champion of the working man at British Leyland. Coal mining was killed-off by cheap eastern European and Australian coal. It's still cheaper to buy from abroad. This is true but it's largely to do with the nature of the coal deposits we have left in this country which is basically deep mine coal whereas in Australia they just rake it off the top in open cast mines We still, even with a Labour government, have not got a government that recognises that the country needs a manufacturing base. Here JTS I totally agree with you. Manufacturing adds real value and creates real wealth and therefore allows the printing of new money as it is backed by a solid asset is totally short sighted of govmnts and thatchers was the same as all successive ones in not being more proactive in this field. We are completely undermining our future prosperity. Because of this I strongly believe people should consider leaving the uk. In 20/30 years time, when cheap goods are no longer available from abroad (or even sooner) that basic fact will be seen. It will be a bit late then. Anything run by a government, even itself, is inefficient and a waste of time and money. But since their income is guaranteed ..............................................
Oh And Fabio I know it's easy for anyone to claim they saw it coming but I used to sit in the pub every saturday afternoon 4 or 5 years ago with a mate and discuss how we were facing a major blip in the economy because the logic of the economics was totally out of kilter. In Fact my mate emigrated to Canada as he could see no future for himself in this country. Oh and if you dont believe me then Vince Cable also warned about the impending disaster too. Anyway back to the op GB has handicapped this country in so many ways most of which affect the less well off far greater than the wealthy. In fact if you look at the gap between the poor and the rich now ...Gordon has robbed from the poor and given to the rich. MT was far from perfect but she inherited an economy in dire financial straights which forced her to take some very unpopular decisions to get it back in control. She took her eye off the ball on manufacturing though as she believed the financial markets would underpin our economy .....how wrong she was and every successive primeminister too. And thats one of the main reasons now why Japan France and Germany are officially out of recession. They have still got a broad based essentially munufacturing base to their economies, and I believe the UK has another 18months to go at least in recession. Although we may see bottoming out due to housing starting to move again but on its own housing can't turn this around in the near future. Agree with your views on this NGDE mate :thumbup:
While Germany MAY be considered out of recession at the moment, their position looks very rocky. Their "green" industry is suffering from the "it's cheaper to buy from abroad" syndrome (photovoltaic cells are cheaper from Taiwan, to the extent that their home production may collapse soon). A lot of their "home production" is underpinned by the PARTS used being sourced from abroad (the same story as our "home" production). Japan has heavily susidised its production base for some time. France operates a home industry protection regime. Coal production in this country is increasing at the moment, with several open-cast mining operations being started, and more planned (council planners have been "throttled" by government....good...). It's very easy to deride the unions for their stance on jobs years ago. However, look at what they warned was going to happen...factories closing, jobs going abroad ? Meanwhile, the government was building the house-of-cards services and financial sector dream.....now a nightmare. Unfortunately, there is no dream solution: the country faces decades of uncertainty, leading to inevitable stagnation. As India, China and other eastern countries increase their production base, their people will want to enjoy the fruits of their labour. They will want television/cars/fridges/etc. In fact. they will want what we have. All based upon lowering oil production and other resource scarcity. Soon countries will be bidding against each other for oil purchase (this has been happening for a while, but will get more open and vicious). We may, at one time, have had the option of building more nuclear electricity production, but even that industry has collapsed here....so it will be off to French producers...who are already operating at capacity...so, back of the queue again.
JTS I think we will have to disagree on the influences the unions had on our productivity> I fundamentally believe if Maggie had not chnaged the laws on ballots and picketing we would have arrived at a far darker place than we are at now. I do agree with a lot of what you say in your last post in particular the projections you make for the future. It is fundamental that we take action now to prepare this country for the future. We need to reinvent industry in this country based on climate preservation and Oil free technologies. I recognise your comment on France and I am inclined to believe it as I have seen evidence myself of French production capacity kept open when it was more expensive than uk capacity. What I don't understand is how this is allowed to happen in an organisation that is supposed to eliminate national protectionism.
The unions had already started to make changes to their rules and operation before M. Thatcher and crew started their changes. Since the changes the unions have embraced more change, and gone further (without legislation). They now utilise the very law that was intended to control and neuter them, to the benefit of their members. Reinventing industry to fight against "climate change" (formerly global warming.....but since it has cooled demonstrably !) would be futile....there is no money to be made from fighting an unwinnable fight...the climate will change as it will, driven mainly by the sun and planetary rotational/orbital change. Instead of climbing onboard the "reduce CO2" train you need to research the subject more. We could double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and notice no temperature increase (crops would grow faster and bigger though) As for oil free tech...great...nobody wants nuclear near them...and renewables just won't fit the bill...there will always be a need for baseload generating capacity, and then more capacity to account for plant down-time etc...we could plant tens of thousands of wind turbines on top of every hill....but what happens when there is no wind ? The economics of renewables effects the economics of fossile-fuel-based generation: I suggest a read of As to France: they look after themselves, as we should be doing. There's no point in being a sociable pauper, which is where we're going: Fast.
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