North/South divide

16 May 2010

I have noticed a large difference in political views from within these forums. Is this real or perceived?
Can this be explained further to me by those in the know

16 May 2010

Looking at a map of the UK, showing voting preferences. Urban areas were mainly labour, whereas rural areas were Tory.
LibDems, were a bit of both.

16 May 2010

Quote by Devon1
Looking at a map of the UK, showing voting preferences. Urban areas were mainly labour, whereas rural areas were Tory.
LibDems, were a bit of both.

Thanks, does any one know the reason behind this dunno

16 May 2010

have to rememeber where most heavy industry was based. These people were what certainly used to be refered to as working class. The industrial revoltion was Lancashire and Yorkshire based. Here in tbe midlands we had a storng mining tradition...and steel works industry. There was alaways a strong sence of community. A sence of belonging ; a way of life that meant looking out for each other. From this tradition of working class backgrounds I think does come a slightly left wing feeling.

16 May 2010

Quote by deancannock
have to rememeber where most heavy industry was based. These people were what certainly used to be refered to as working class. The industrial revoltion was Lancashire and Yorkshire based. Here in tbe midlands we had a storng mining tradition...and steel works industry. There was alaways a strong sence of community. A sence of belonging ; a way of life that meant looking out for each other. From this tradition of working class backgrounds I think does come a slightly left wing feeling.

Thank you, so do you think this is due to the demise of these industry's? Because there are working class throughout the country.
There has been hardship in other industry's such as farming, but does not seam to have had the same effect. Where I grew up was surrounded by small family run farms, almost all of those have now disappeared
What I am trying to say is, hopefully without causing offence, is that hardship is not the preserve of any certain areas.
Or have I got it completely wrong?

16 May 2010

There is another context to this, that is conflict within parties - NEW Labour of Tony Blair etc. came more into the centre, yet they carried their traditional union and similar voters along with them, even though the party was now more to the right than the Liberal Democrats (I think that's why the name LABOUR was kept). Now I note that only today (Sun 16th) Nick Clegg is having problems with some of his Lib/Dem party for going into a coalition with the Tories which is quite understandable really.
The whole thing is more confused now, eventually we will have a more mixed system like other countries who have already gone that way as there is not the old social divide between "workers" and "bosses" as there used to be. When this comes about the map of voter differences between city and country areas will not be so pronounced.
Plim

16 May 2010

Quote by Plimboy
There is another context to this, that is conflict within parties - NEW Labour of Tony Blair etc. came more into the centre, yet they carried their traditional union and similar voters along with them, even though the party was now more to the right than the Liberal Democrats (I think that's why the name LABOUR was kept). Now I note that only today (Sun 16th) Nick Clegg is having problems with some of his Lib/Dem party for going into a coalition with the Tories which is quite understandable really.
The whole thing is more confused now, eventually we will have a more mixed system like other countries who have already gone that way as there is not the old social divide between "workers" and "bosses" as there used to be. When this comes about the map of voter differences between city and country areas will not be so pronounced.
Plim

Thanks, interesting and thought provoking post. Is there a divide between workers and bosses? Not so obvious in rural Dorset. Almost every one I know in the circles I move in voted conservative, workers and bosses. Why the different view of the world?

16 May 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
have to rememeber where most heavy industry was based. These people were what certainly used to be refered to as working class. The industrial revoltion was Lancashire and Yorkshire based. Here in tbe midlands we had a storng mining tradition...and steel works industry. There was alaways a strong sence of community. A sence of belonging ; a way of life that meant looking out for each other. From this tradition of working class backgrounds I think does come a slightly left wing feeling.

Thank you, so do you think this is due to the demise of these industry's? Because there are working class throughout the country.
There has been hardship in other industry's such as farming, but does not seam to have had the same effect. Where I grew up was surrounded by small family run farms, almost all of those have now disappeared
What I am trying to say is, hopefully without causing offence, is that hardship is not the preserve of any certain areas.
Or have I got it completely wrong?
no..blue... it very true hardship felt in all areas..and in all industries. However in farming....you tend to work with a few farm hands. In the steel works and mining indutries.....there were hundreds employed working side by side. Each depending on each other. This I do feel lead to a sence of community. You looked out for each other at work, and outside. I do think slowly..and its with regret, now that these industies have dissappeared, we are losing this community feel. But do feel that this working class tradition, does still live on for the moment.

16 May 2010

Thanks again Dean and Kaz
I take the valid point that factory's could have thousands working within, where as only a handful on farms. I think it is a fascinating subject.
This thread and others currently being discussed has inspired me to take a visit to where the TUC started, just a few miles up the road from where I now sit writing this. No more than 12 miles away they have some sort of museum at Tolpuddle that I have never visited. Time to educate myself a little further I feel.

16 May 2010

Like dean said

17 May 2010

I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

17 May 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

i only know what i know of Marx by absorption,having given up on Kapital half way thru,possibly the only book i never finished,so i have a question.
Could part of the reasons people in rural areas failed to develop a strong class consciousness be because they were not alienated from their often the same food that fed their masters also fed them?
i suppose the benign side of feudalism.
I think there's also a point to be made about the temporary,migrant and seasonal nature of much farm work with many farms in the past at least having only a small permanent workforce and hiring in when the season demanded.

17 May 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

i only know what i know of Marx by absorption,having given up on Kapital half way thru,possibly the only book i never finished,so i have a question.
Could part of the reasons people in rural areas failed to develop a strong class consciousness be because they were not alienated from their often the same food that fed their masters also fed them?
i suppose the benign side of feudalism.
I think there's also a point to be made about the temporary,migrant and seasonal nature of much farm work with many farms in the past at least having only a small permanent workforce and hiring in when the season demanded.
This is very true, my Grandfather (to give you an idea of time span and era, all being well he will be 97 this year) worked on a local farm when I was a small child. He was the farm farrier amongst other jobs. He had had a very hard working life and tragic at times, which started very young doing what he called stone picking. Collecting stones after the plough in a bucket and tipping them in the hedge.
During harvest large parts of our village would turn out to help stack the bails of hay/straw into towers for the tractors to collect, even us kids. Everybody got paid to some extent and us kids were permitted a small amount of cider to drink lol

The sheep shearing was always done by travelling men, normally Australians.
There are other differences also, but not sure this applies to all farms of the era though. Although he was paid very poorly, he was very much valued and appreciated. We had ribbiting rights on the farm land and some phesants, eggs, and milk. Having not worked for that farmer for probable 30 years and having lost contact, some years back he was left £5000 in the farmers will!
I had an idyllic and wonderful upbringing in this environment, hard for our parents but us kids never felt the hardship. The world has changed such a large amount in my short life.

17 May 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

i only know what i know of Marx by absorption,having given up on Kapital half way thru,possibly the only book i never finished,so i have a question.
Could part of the reasons people in rural areas failed to develop a strong class consciousness be because they were not alienated from their often the same food that fed their masters also fed them?
i suppose the benign side of feudalism.
Quite the opposite if anything.
The Tolpuddle Martyrs were agricultural labourers, from an era when agriculture was an industry dependent on mass employment. All the major social movements identified by EPT in MEWC, By DJones and GAW in Wales, had their roots in agricultural natural justice movements. From Captain Swing to the Sons and Daughters of Rebecca, from the Luddites to the Scotch Cattle, workers who weren't even one generation off the land were bitterly class conscious. The essays in Miners, Quarrymen and Saltworkers by Raph Samuel sum up well the way in which workers in extractive industries, fresh from the land, were often more radical than their town dwelling counterparts.
The agricultural labourers we remember now were the remnants, the losers and survivors of a violent and ideologically intense clas struggle. They still built a powerful farmworkers union then, until mechanization drove it into the arms of the T&G.

17 May 2010

Quote by awayman
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.
in the 15 years or so of ever increasing credit (money supply), fictitious asset growth based on ever increasing debt, the populous became drunk on bling, celebrities, exotic holidays and consumerism. awareness and consciousness, critical thought was reduced to "i fink this and i fort that, init". but now that the amount of interest on the credit bubble has become greater than gdp planet earth, the whole world monetary system is in crisis and nation after nation, continent after continent will default on the servicing of this debt and collapse causing desparation for 90% of the peoples of the world.
no amount of scams like carbon taxes, q.e. or cuts in government spending (al la milton friedman (chicago school) shock therapy) will stop the destruction of all asset classes including people in this coming period of "austerity". observe greece, thailand, portugal, ireland, italy, spain, iceland collapsed or facing it and france's nick sarkosi saying france should withdraw from the euro because france is "broke".
as peoples social condition collapses, so their consciousness, social consciousness rises. while politicians have their noses in the trough and bankers pay themselves record bonuses while the great majority are made to suffer, no amount of programming, east enders, coronation st, home and away, friends, sun newspaper or daily mail will be able to prevent people of all race, colour, creed or native land from identifying common cause and problem.
this is the greatest task of the ruling elite, division. expect our heads to be filled with more islamaphobia and "foreigners should leave" british jobs for british workers and expect a "big event" to divert peoples attention away from their immediate plight.
the financial system is collapsing in on itself under a mountain of debt requiring interest (servicing) and if it cannot sustain itself then it cannot sustain 6+ billion humans and does not intend so to do.

17 May 2010

Quote by awayman
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

i only know what i know of Marx by absorption,having given up on Kapital half way thru,possibly the only book i never finished,so i have a question.
Could part of the reasons people in rural areas failed to develop a strong class consciousness be because they were not alienated from their often the same food that fed their masters also fed them?
i suppose the benign side of feudalism.
Quite the opposite if anything.
The Tolpuddle Martyrs were agricultural labourers, from an era when agriculture was an industry dependent on mass employment. All the major social movements identified by EPT in MEWC, By DJones and GAW in Wales, had their roots in agricultural natural justice movements. From Captain Swing to the Sons and Daughters of Rebecca, from the Luddites to the Scotch Cattle, workers who weren't even one generation off the land were bitterly class conscious. The essays in Miners, Quarrymen and Saltworkers by Raph Samuel sum up well the way in which workers in extractive industries, fresh from the land, were often more radical than their town dwelling counterparts.
The agricultural labourers we remember now were the remnants, the losers and survivors of a violent and ideologically intense clas struggle. They still built a powerful farmworkers union then, until mechanization drove it into the arms of the T&G.
Yes,
My Grandfather called himself working class and was as proud of that as any man in any other part of the country or trade

17 May 2010

Quote by gulsonroad30664
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

Your first para owes more to the inevitabilism of abstentionists like Hyndman than vanguardists like Trotsky and Lenin. Marx certainly was no inevitabilist - that's why he contributed to the founding of the first International.
Good conspiracy theories though

17 May 2010

Quote by gulsonroad30664
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.
in the 15 years or so of ever increasing credit (money supply), fictitious asset growth based on ever increasing debt, the populous became drunk on bling, celebrities, exotic holidays and consumerism. awareness and consciousness, critical thought was reduced to "i fink this and i fort that, init". but now that the amount of interest on the credit bubble has become greater than gdp planet earth, the whole world monetary system is in crisis and nation after nation, continent after continent will default on the servicing of this debt and collapse causing desparation for 90% of the peoples of the world.
no amount of scams like carbon taxes, q.e. or cuts in government spending (al la milton friedman (chicago school) shock therapy) will stop the destruction of all asset classes including people in this coming period of "austerity". observe greece, thailand, portugal, ireland, italy, spain, iceland collapsed or facing it and france's nick sarkosi saying france should withdraw from the euro because france is "broke".
as peoples social condition collapses, so their consciousness, social consciousness rises. while politicians have their noses in the trough and bankers pay themselves record bonuses while the great majority are made to suffer, no amount of programming, east enders, coronation st, home and away, friends, sun newspaper or daily mail will be able to prevent people of all race, colour, creed or native land from identifying common cause and problem.
this is the greatest task of the ruling elite, division. expect our heads to be filled with more islamaphobia and "foreigners should leave" british jobs for british workers and expect a "big event" to divert peoples attention away from their immediate plight.
the financial system is collapsing in on itself under a mountain of debt requiring interest (servicing) and if it cannot sustain itself then it cannot sustain 6+ billion humans and does not intend so to do.
*searches fruitlessly for the applause emoticon*

17 May 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.
in the 15 years or so of ever increasing credit (money supply), fictitious asset growth based on ever increasing debt, the populous became drunk on bling, celebrities, exotic holidays and consumerism. awareness and consciousness, critical thought was reduced to "i fink this and i fort that, init". but now that the amount of interest on the credit bubble has become greater than gdp planet earth, the whole world monetary system is in crisis and nation after nation, continent after continent will default on the servicing of this debt and collapse causing desparation for 90% of the peoples of the world.
no amount of scams like carbon taxes, q.e. or cuts in government spending (al la milton friedman (chicago school) shock therapy) will stop the destruction of all asset classes including people in this coming period of "austerity". observe greece, thailand, portugal, ireland, italy, spain, iceland collapsed or facing it and france's nick sarkosi saying france should withdraw from the euro because france is "broke".
as peoples social condition collapses, so their consciousness, social consciousness rises. while politicians have their noses in the trough and bankers pay themselves record bonuses while the great majority are made to suffer, no amount of programming, east enders, coronation st, home and away, friends, sun newspaper or daily mail will be able to prevent people of all race, colour, creed or native land from identifying common cause and problem.
this is the greatest task of the ruling elite, division. expect our heads to be filled with more islamaphobia and "foreigners should leave" british jobs for british workers and expect a "big event" to divert peoples attention away from their immediate plight.
the financial system is collapsing in on itself under a mountain of debt requiring interest (servicing) and if it cannot sustain itself then it cannot sustain 6+ billion humans and does not intend so to do.
*searches fruitlessly for the applause emoticon*
Applause? I was off to look for a rope and suitably strurdy branch!

17 May 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.
in the 15 years or so of ever increasing credit (money supply), fictitious asset growth based on ever increasing debt, the populous became drunk on bling, celebrities, exotic holidays and consumerism. awareness and consciousness, critical thought was reduced to "i fink this and i fort that, init". but now that the amount of interest on the credit bubble has become greater than gdp planet earth, the whole world monetary system is in crisis and nation after nation, continent after continent will default on the servicing of this debt and collapse causing desparation for 90% of the peoples of the world.
no amount of scams like carbon taxes, q.e. or cuts in government spending (al la milton friedman (chicago school) shock therapy) will stop the destruction of all asset classes including people in this coming period of "austerity". observe greece, thailand, portugal, ireland, italy, spain, iceland collapsed or facing it and france's nick sarkosi saying france should withdraw from the euro because france is "broke".
as peoples social condition collapses, so their consciousness, social consciousness rises. while politicians have their noses in the trough and bankers pay themselves record bonuses while the great majority are made to suffer, no amount of programming, east enders, coronation st, home and away, friends, sun newspaper or daily mail will be able to prevent people of all race, colour, creed or native land from identifying common cause and problem.
this is the greatest task of the ruling elite, division. expect our heads to be filled with more islamaphobia and "foreigners should leave" british jobs for british workers and expect a "big event" to divert peoples attention away from their immediate plight.
the financial system is collapsing in on itself under a mountain of debt requiring interest (servicing) and if it cannot sustain itself then it cannot sustain 6+ billion humans and does not intend so to do.
*searches fruitlessly for the applause emoticon*
Applause? I was off to look for a rope and suitably strurdy branch!
But when he's right he's right in spades

17 May 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I think in part we're tangling here with class_as_status, and class_as_consciousness.
A good instructive moment can be experienced in the high street of most towns in Lancashire. The busiest workingmens club will often be the conservative club, and not just because of the excellent snooker table. Of course religion rears its head in that one too - not for nothing is orange the traditional colour of the north west Liberals, but the key element is consciousness - what people believe.
Our class, objectively, is defined by our relationship to the means of production, That's what Marxists like me believe. But we don't necessarily know that - so we may think our best interests are best served by aligning ourselves with the interests of the ruling class - hence working class tories.
The north south divide is real, but it's a reality that comes from heavy industry fleeing the south before it fled the north and west. That led to a different type of consciousness amongst working people who often didn't have the experience of conflict that more organized workers elsewhere had.

social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.
in the 15 years or so of ever increasing credit (money supply), fictitious asset growth based on ever increasing debt, the populous became drunk on bling, celebrities, exotic holidays and consumerism. awareness and consciousness, critical thought was reduced to "i fink this and i fort that, init". but now that the amount of interest on the credit bubble has become greater than gdp planet earth, the whole world monetary system is in crisis and nation after nation, continent after continent will default on the servicing of this debt and collapse causing desparation for 90% of the peoples of the world.
no amount of scams like carbon taxes, q.e. or cuts in government spending (al la milton friedman (chicago school) shock therapy) will stop the destruction of all asset classes including people in this coming period of "austerity". observe greece, thailand, portugal, ireland, italy, spain, iceland collapsed or facing it and france's nick sarkosi saying france should withdraw from the euro because france is "broke".
as peoples social condition collapses, so their consciousness, social consciousness rises. while politicians have their noses in the trough and bankers pay themselves record bonuses while the great majority are made to suffer, no amount of programming, east enders, coronation st, home and away, friends, sun newspaper or daily mail will be able to prevent people of all race, colour, creed or native land from identifying common cause and problem.
this is the greatest task of the ruling elite, division. expect our heads to be filled with more islamaphobia and "foreigners should leave" british jobs for british workers and expect a "big event" to divert peoples attention away from their immediate plight.
the financial system is collapsing in on itself under a mountain of debt requiring interest (servicing) and if it cannot sustain itself then it cannot sustain 6+ billion humans and does not intend so to do.
*searches fruitlessly for the applause emoticon*
Applause? I was off to look for a rope and suitably strurdy branch!
But when he's right he's right in spades
Well, on reflection, I dont think it would be all bad. Harder times have been lived through by others before us

17 May 2010

Quote by awayman
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

Your first para owes more to the inevitabilism of abstentionists like Hyndman than vanguardists like Trotsky and Lenin. Marx certainly was no inevitabilist - that's why he contributed to the founding of the first International.
Good conspiracy theories thoughawayman, where is the conspiracy in my text ? you claim to be a marxist therefore you will be familiar with the writings (conspiracies ?) of karl marx and in particular das capital ? you will be versed in the principles of materialism, in particular, dialectical materialism. you will have observed how marx turned hegel upside down philosophically. this was done not by quoting isms and ists but by deep research and critical thought ON THE SUBJECT MATTER !
i suggest no inevitability of the outcome of the processes taking place that i have cited nor do i consider that the phrase "social being determines social consciousness" has anything remotely to do with hyndman or any other abstentionist/inevitabilism idealogical standpoint. if you do, then i respectfully consider you to be a fraud sir and i'm no marxist ! LOL

17 May 2010

And so the left once more creates a schism and weakens itself.......I can get a gun if anyone wants to proffer a foot

17 May 2010

Quote by gulsonroad30664
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

awayman, where is the conspiracy in my text ? you claim to be a marxist therefore you will be familiar with the writings (conspiracies ?) of karl marx and in particular das capital ? you will be versed in the principles of materialism, in particular, dialectical materialism. you will have observed how marx turned hegel upside down philosophically. this was done not by quoting isms and ists but by deep research and critical thought ON THE SUBJECT MATTER !
i suggest no inevitability of the outcome of the processes taking place that i have cited nor do i consider that the phrase "social being determines social consciousness" has anything remotely to do with hyndman or any other abstentionist/inevitabilism idealogical standpoint. if you do, then i respectfully consider you to be a fraud sir and i'm no marxist ! LOL
Not the first time I've seen you have a hissy fit. Not the last I imagine. Your conclusion, in sentence two of your first paragraph, that begins 'therefore' suggests that the world's population, under the burden of yadda yadda yadda, will become more socially conscious and be driven to resistance etc....
That's inevitabilism. If you don't recognise that, it's your problem, not mine, If you don't know who Hyndman was, that's your problem, not mine. If you don't know what vanguardism is, that's your problem not mine. I've learned about them through years of studying Marxism, and years of class activity.

17 May 2010

Quote by awayman
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

awayman, where is the conspiracy in my text ? you claim to be a marxist therefore you will be familiar with the writings (conspiracies ?) of karl marx and in particular das capital ? you will be versed in the principles of materialism, in particular, dialectical materialism. you will have observed how marx turned hegel upside down philosophically. this was done not by quoting isms and ists but by deep research and critical thought ON THE SUBJECT MATTER !
i suggest no inevitability of the outcome of the processes taking place that i have cited nor do i consider that the phrase "social being determines social consciousness" has anything remotely to do with hyndman or any other abstentionist/inevitabilism idealogical standpoint. if you do, then i respectfully consider you to be a fraud sir and i'm no marxist ! LOL
Not the first time I've seen you have a hissy fit. Not the last I imagine. Your conclusion, in sentence two of your first paragraph, that begins 'therefore' suggests that the world's population, under the burden of yadda yadda yadda, will become more socially conscious and be driven to resistance etc....
That's inevitabilism. If you don't recognise that, it's your problem, not mine, If you don't know who Hyndman was, that's your problem, not mine. If you don't know what vanguardism is, that's your problem not mine. I've learned about them through years of studying Marxism, and years of class activity. no hissy fit on my part, merely banter. i still fail to see what on earth, attributing my text to conspiracies, isms and ists has got to do with the subject i raised ? you may have studied marxism and all other manner of philosophers and scientists of varying sciences but that does not negate the validity of the content of my text. on the contrary, it only serves as a diversion and instead of furthering discussion on the specifics in question, reduces contributions to a slanging match between you and whoever is on the receiving end.
now i ask myself the question :- "in who's interests does it serve ?" obviously what i said in all of my text was absolute rubbish and conspiracy theory mr marxist who believes in conspiring with others to overthrow capitalism and bring about socialism.
sorry for any offence. i will try to be disciplined in future and never engage with you again. keep doing the classes though. lol

17 May 2010

Quote by awayman
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

awayman, where is the conspiracy in my text ? you claim to be a marxist therefore you will be familiar with the writings (conspiracies ?) of karl marx and in particular das capital ? you will be versed in the principles of materialism, in particular, dialectical materialism. you will have observed how marx turned hegel upside down philosophically. this was done not by quoting isms and ists but by deep research and critical thought ON THE SUBJECT MATTER !
i suggest no inevitability of the outcome of the processes taking place that i have cited nor do i consider that the phrase "social being determines social consciousness" has anything remotely to do with hyndman or any other abstentionist/inevitabilism idealogical standpoint. if you do, then i respectfully consider you to be a fraud sir and i'm no marxist ! LOL
Not the first time I've seen you have a hissy fit. Not the last I imagine. Your conclusion, in sentence two of your first paragraph, that begins 'therefore' suggests that the world's population, under the burden of yadda yadda yadda, will become more socially conscious and be driven to resistance etc....
That's inevitabilism. If you don't recognise that, it's your problem, not mine, If you don't know who Hyndman was, that's your problem, not mine. If you don't know what vanguardism is, that's your problem not mine. I've learned about them through years of studying Marxism, and years of class activity.N.B. come the revolution, make sure you've got me on your list

17 May 2010

Great thread, thanks to all for their input so far. :thumbup:

18 May 2010

Quote by gulsonroad30664
social being determines social consciousness according to marx, engles. lenin and trotsky. therefore as the worlds population, under the burden of ever increasing taxes and reductions in services and welfare will become more aware and socially conscious and be driven to resistance to survive.

awayman, where is the conspiracy in my text ? you claim to be a marxist therefore you will be familiar with the writings (conspiracies ?) of karl marx and in particular das capital ? you will be versed in the principles of materialism, in particular, dialectical materialism. you will have observed how marx turned hegel upside down philosophically. this was done not by quoting isms and ists but by deep research and critical thought ON THE SUBJECT MATTER !
i suggest no inevitability of the outcome of the processes taking place that i have cited nor do i consider that the phrase "social being determines social consciousness" has anything remotely to do with hyndman or any other abstentionist/inevitabilism idealogical standpoint. if you do, then i respectfully consider you to be a fraud sir and i'm no marxist ! LOL
Not the first time I've seen you have a hissy fit. Not the last I imagine. Your conclusion, in sentence two of your first paragraph, that begins 'therefore' suggests that the world's population, under the burden of yadda yadda yadda, will become more socially conscious and be driven to resistance etc....
That's inevitabilism. If you don't recognise that, it's your problem, not mine, If you don't know who Hyndman was, that's your problem, not mine. If you don't know what vanguardism is, that's your problem not mine. I've learned about them through years of studying Marxism, and years of class activity. no hissy fit on my part, merely banter. i still fail to see what on earth, attributing my text to conspiracies, isms and ists has got to do with the subject i raised ? you may have studied marxism and all other manner of philosophers and scientists of varying sciences but that does not negate the validity of the content of my text. on the contrary, it only serves as a diversion and instead of furthering discussion on the specifics in question, reduces contributions to a slanging match between you and whoever is on the receiving end.
now i ask myself the question :- "in who's interests does it serve ?" obviously what i said in all of my text was absolute rubbish and conspiracy theory mr marxist who believes in conspiring with others to overthrow capitalism and bring about socialism.
sorry for any offence. i will try to be disciplined in future and never engage with you again. keep doing the classes though. lol
You're engaged in self parody aren't you? I mean, you call me a fraud, you suggest that I'm engaged in conspiracies, then you accuse me of starting a slanging match? Catch yourself on boy bach, this isn't getting you anywhere.

18 May 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
thank you for a really illuminating debate blue/guls/away.
kev has just thrown the difference in working conditions and the co operative nature of industries like mining.

It's interesting, but again it's not the whole story. The butty system in mining, where the butty would negotiate the rate for a section of the pit with the owner and then distribute the profits to his workmates on the job is directly analogous to share-cropping or other forms of profit sharing in pre-industrial farming. Tin mining had similar systems, so did slate in North Wales (Raph Samuel is a good source on this again.)
It's an unfashionable area of history now, but this area, where the dividing lines in work got sharpened, where butties got pushed aside in favour of employers directly employing labour and foremen, is at the heart of understanding the paradox of why it was often better off men with assets and status who ended up at the forefront of disputes. Zephaniah Williams, the Blackwood who led the chartists to Newport in 1839 alongside the cretinous John Frost, was not a manic street preacher like WIlliam Jones, the Pontypool drunkard who got half the chartist force lost between Pontypool and Newport (which is quite an achievement when you think about it...) ZW was a successful butty, a mining contractor who invested his profits in a pub for his wife while preaching sedition and worker's rights. He wasn't a gentle man either - in 1833 he blew up a mine belonging to a landowner who refused to pay him for work done by his gang. If he'd lived in the countryside he'd have been a gangmaster on large arable farms - he livedin the valleys so he was a butty.

18 May 2010

Quote by awayman
thank you for a really illuminating debate blue/guls/away.
kev has just thrown the difference in working conditions and the co operative nature of industries like mining.

It's interesting, but again it's not the whole story. The butty system in mining, where the butty would negotiate the rate for a section of the pit with the owner and then distribute the profits to his workmates on the job is directly analogous to share-cropping or other forms of profit sharing in pre-industrial farming. Tin mining had similar systems, so did slate in North Wales (Raph Samuel is a good source on this again.)
It's an unfashionable area of history now, but this area, where the dividing lines in work got sharpened, where butties got pushed aside in favour of employers directly employing labour and foremen, is at the heart of understanding the paradox of why it was often better off men with assets and status who ended up at the forefront of disputes. Zephaniah Williams, the Blackwood who led the chartists to Newport in 1839 alongside the cretinous John Frost, was not a manic street preacher like WIlliam Jones, the Pontypool drunkard who got half the chartist force lost between Pontypool and Newport (which is quite an achievement when you think about it...) ZW was a successful butty, a mining contractor who invested his profits in a pub for his wife while preaching sedition and worker's rights. He wasn't a gentle man either - in 1833 he blew up a mine belonging to a landowner who refused to pay him for work done by his gang. If he'd lived in the countryside he'd have been a gangmaster on large arable farms - he livedin the valleys so he was a butty.
would that have been a chip butty or a bacon butty labour= butty
down south there called sarnies you know tory =sarnie
simples bolt