NUM | Swinging Heaven

29 Aug 2010

Quote by awayman
snip ....
The miners strike was 1984-1985, your age is 44 apparently cos I had a little gander. Now that in my book would make you a very young man when the strike started.
I find it strange how a young man would go the width and breadth of England, to support the miners. An odd one for a young man to do who is not a miner. Still you were probably at the Poll tax riots too. See what higher education can do?

Aha! a Scargill groupie then? Now that's individuality!!
Most other teenagers would have been following The Stones...
bolt

In 1984?
Aren't they still around even these days?

29 Aug 2010

the miners strike for jobs, pits, communities and the mining industry, had very little to do with the profitability of individual pits and seams and everything to do with monetarism and de-regulation. the term "thatcherism" is a misnamer as "reganism" is in the u.s. it still exists today under tory bliar/gordy and the camaron/clegg coalition.
the city of london calls the shots and decides policy for the muppets at westminster regarless of who is selected. arthur scargill was and is a naive trades unionist. he DID NOT call the miners out on strike, he was for a ballot but the yorkshire miners were already on strike and surrounded the n.u.m. headquarters in barnsley where the executive were meeting who by a majority vote "endorsed" the action of the striking yorkshire miners and the other autonomous regions followed suite.
the conservative government had planned the strike as they had the printers and railwaymen before them. the purpose was to destroy the organised working class as a precondition to rolling back all the social gains made in the preceding hundred years of organised labour. this was necessary to privatise for profit all state owned infrastructure for their now de-regulated financial controllers in the city.
when thatchers ego "the lady's not for turning" got the better of her when hundreds of thousands demonstrated on the streets of london against the poll tax and the police could not contain the situation, thatcher was for calling in the troops to implement the governments will.
this is when a power greater than those selected stepped in, "the men in grey coats" and she was dispensed with and another "stoolie" was selected. what happened to thatcherism ? individual personalised nonesense. its MONETARISM and its still here. thats why you get bonuses for "the too big to fails" and "austerity" for the too small to save.
this deregulation (no laws) which drove a 20 year credit boom has now collapsed and "all" the industries that were destroyed in favour of finance capital were a product of the primacy of "MONETARISM" which will now be our undertaker.
what i find facinating in these threads is the lack of understanding of peoples class interests regardless of what they are programmed/made to think. by the way, i am a political aetheist.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV

1600 members ffs?
:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:
That many eh?:shock:

No real desire to debate then?? just a childish schoolboy glee at the destruction of thousands of lives...well done you're a fine example of humanity aren't you
Many new industries grew from the ashes of the closure of pits...
And many ex-mining communities still labour under the yoke of mass unemployment,above average drug use and social decay....but lets ignore the suffering the pit closures still cause shall we...new millenium and all
Don't forget poor health issues as well... mining caused very many poor health issues much of which has now gone, thankfully, since sending boys down the mines to work has gone. Bit like outlawing send boys up chimneys in a way dunno

No not really there is a huge gulf between a miner paid a decent wage to do a job of work and a small child forced up a chimney for a pittance...really G I expected better from you

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

1600 members ffs?
:laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove::laughabove:
That many eh?:shock:

No real desire to debate then?? just a childish schoolboy glee at the destruction of thousands of lives...well done you're a fine example of humanity aren't you
Many new industries grew from the ashes of the closure of pits...
And many ex-mining communities still labour under the yoke of mass unemployment,above average drug use and social decay....but lets ignore the suffering the pit closures still cause shall we...new millenium and all
Why not stop using the drugs and spend the money on food for the family dunno

29 Aug 2010

Quote by awayman
How gullible are you?
Nicholas Ridley was one of the cabinet ministers responsible for the plan to close down the deep mined coal industry. The Ridley family estates are one of the bigges sources of surface mined coal in the UK today. We haven't stopped relying on fosil fuel at all - we just get it in a way that benefits landowners like the Ridleys at the expense of communities that have to put up with the disruption and havoc that is surface mining.

The only Ridley in Essex I remember was T.D. Ridley & Sons who brewed a wicked pint near Ford End in the Chelmer Valley on the outskirts of Chelmsford served with great distinction at the Brewery Tap - The Compasses at Littley Green (if you could find it!)!
You might like to know that the current landlord of The Compasses (Joceyln Ridley) is a direct descendant of the Ridley family and is considering brewing beer as a micro sometime in the future :thumbup:

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
not forgetting scargill's Hench men and the flying pickets and the fact that scargill ignored a ballot against
First I've heard of this ballot....enlighten me please
after researching it last time it came up ,i could only come up with the conclusion that neither scargill or thatcher did what was best by the miners
No argument here I've stated before as has awayman here that Scargill managed the strike badly
scargill does however seem to have managed quite nicely compared with the people he represented
and i would add from an outsider and a little research he looks as much a socialist as branson looks a marxist
I'll make a few assumptions...correct me if I'm wrong,you are I would suspect a believer in capitalism ?you use the national health service? if you have kids they go to state schools?...why would you expect anyone to live in a society that doesn't exist in this country and decry their 'hypocrisy' when you a capitalist are equally if not more culpable...when we have a socialist society I will join you happily on the barricades fighting against this 'hypocrisy' 'til then do not expect people to live their lives in a society that doesn't exist....I don't care about wether or not Scargill has lived a comfortable life from his wage or anyone else for that matter...I am tired of being confronted by this idiot argument about 'socialist hypocrisy' from capitalists who make good use of those few socialist ideals that have been enacted.....it's not big and it's fucking miles from being clever

29 Aug 2010

Quote by awayman
The membership of the N.U.M. declined because the Thatcher government closed all the pits .....we've done this before you were wrong then you remain wrong..Scargill and the N.U.M. didn't close one single pit....we're now dependant on foreign energy supplies for one reason and she also nicked the school milk...as I said your understanding of recent British history leaves a lot to be desired.
You will never understand the miners strike because as I said you don't come from a mining area....and you will never get past your idea of the miners as a bunch of thick northern sheep who followed where Scargill lead.

That's not what awayman said.... who is right?
Shall I rephrase ??...no fuck it I know what he means and I'm sure he knows what I mean...A slight difference in emphasis...perhaps you don't know any ex-miners So I will explain....you need to know the people involved to have an understanding of the strike..does that fit better ??seems I did rephrase after all
Weren't very many in Essex as I recall...
But what I do recall is the effect it had on putting the lid on Trades Unions unleashing great power over the ordinary working class who were basically not in the least un-content with their lot and just wanted to get on with their lives, providing for their families in good honest jobs.
Times change. The world moves on. Carbon based fuels dug up deep from underground can be likened to the 70's advert for Smash; the sherbet saucer beings from outer space laughing their tits off at housewives peeling potatoes when there are so many other more efficient ways of generating energy, like nuclear....
How gullible are you?
Nicholas Ridley was one of the cabinet ministers responsible for the plan to close down the deep mined coal industry. The Ridley family estates are one of the bigges sources of surface mined coal in the UK today. We haven't stopped relying on fosil fuel at all - we just get it in a way that benefits landowners like the Ridleys at the expense of communities that have to put up with the disruption and havoc that is surface mining.
Incidentally has anyone noticed how quickly Ken and his acolytes go onto the personal attack? Apparently the fact that I was an adult living on my own away from home in 1984 disqualifies me from eligibility as a picket, even though I was a shop steward for my union and part of my local miner's support group? And why wouldn't I be? Half my family were miners.
Ken and his ilk start frothing at the mouth any chance they get, but their only contribution is stupid pictures of vans (very funny) and ad hominem attacks designed to move the debate away from the fact that they know fuck all about the topic.
Incidentally, I thought Scargill w as wrong in 1984 in the way he conducted the strike, and has been wrong about almost everything else ever since. But on the topic of the hit list and the Tory plan to run down the mining industry, he was exactly right, and the folly of Tory energy policies is evidenced by the way, today, we are dependent on foreign gas, oil and electricity. Whether it was the cancellation of Salters Duck or the abandonment of millions of tons of recoverable coal in prematurely closed pits, Thatcher's energy policy was a disaster.
just trying to add a little humor old chap
you should try it
i did a lot of research last time this came up facts are normally best viewed when all the propaganda has long since perished don't you think
as i wasn't involved (far better things doing when i was 17 :rascal::rascal: )i tried to form an opinion of what the strike was really about via the www , conclusion was it was a who could piss the furthest competition thatcher or scargill
had scargill won maggie would have fallen and scargill might have become the first president of the uk but he didn't
so some toff got then got close the pits and roger the landscape for his own profit boo fecin hoo it life has been for last few hundred years

29 Aug 2010

staggers read my post. regards

29 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
It was nothing to do with cost it was about a political war and a governments desire to kill off one of the strongest sections of the working classes, the ones Thatcher termed "the enemy within" and in doing so also kill off the unions.
Using a cost argument is not viable as taking into account fuel, operating and maintenance costs, regulatory fees, pensions, taxes, insurance, property taxes, capital, admin and overheads and not forgetting decommissioning and waste costs in relation to nuclear, figures from for example 2005 show that the difference in costs for coal and nuclear power are negligable.
Nuclear 30.0 million
Coal 29.1 million

On that basis, I would go with nuclear. Gawdy Borrown seemed keen on that idea too, not that I often agree with him. Problem is now that in order to reach emission targets, the time scale requires that they have to go with the French whereas if they had taken earlier decisions, the UK could have been at the forefront of its own technology rather than now having to rely on external influences.
Whose fault? Difficult to say to be honest. Political ineptitude all round is probably the best answer.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by gulsonroad30664
staggers read my post. regards

I see no contradiction guls...rob tells me of a ballot ignored you of one not held...I'm fully aware of the one you're speaking of not however this ignored ballot rob tells us about

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Here we go again.
You really do hold the general public in the up most contempt, don't you?
Do you really believe that the British public are so fucking thick, that they only believed the papers and the politicians? FFS..........people are not blind, they could see back then what the NUM and Scargill were trying to do, remember the winter of discontent?
People are not thick and they know only too well that the unions as a whole were far more powerful than they should ever have been allowed to get too, and the British public have very long memories. I remember the black outs and the rubbish in the streets, and not being able to bury the dead, or is that also a rumour put around by Murdochs press machine??
Never ever underestimate the British public, that has been the downfall of many a strike. Once you no longer have public support you are doomed.
Your arguments at times are so flawed because you believe things from your own personnel prospective,which are not always anywhere near the facts.
You are a union man, a supporter of the unions so I do not expect you to have any other views than those that are distorted, and void of substance.
I on the other hand hate the unions, I hate what they had become and I hated the likes of Scargill sitting in his plush offices, telling his men to go forth and do the business, whilst still raking in the money but.............more importantly the media and the limelight he craved.
He cared nothing for the members of the NUM, he was only ever interested in power, which at one point he had in abundance. Then he took on a Tory leader who was sick and tired of unions and their leaders holding the country to ransom. So she and her Government decided once and for all to end the unions power hold over the public. She won they lost...........period.
No matter what you or I say, the NUM was finished the day the strike was over, as was Scargill. Never again to hold the British public to ransom, for his own personnel agendas.
You think that is bad, and I think it is fantastic. I believe the majority of the British public would never ever want to go back to those days, and thankfully and hopefully it will not.
The print unions tried it as well on the 24 January 1986. They decided to once again take on their employers, just as the miners had done. Wapping was the dispute and as I have been in the print for years my understanding of that dispute is a bit more than the miners.
Bottom line was they also were smashed, stamped into a mess on the pavement outside Wapping, and just like the miners were never the same again. Never to hold the public or their employers to ransom again. No power now at all and the current trouble makers in UNITE had better watch their arses, for the people they pay their money too in the Labour party, are no longer in power. How glad am I of that.
We can sit here all day going backwards and forwards over the same bollocks, at the end of the day the NUM have only 1600 members when at their height they had members. The print unions now hold now power either, those are facts.
Thatcher lived to fight another day, whereas Scargill was a broken and beaten man, along with all the other miners who followed him. The unions are nowhere near as powerful nowadays and the TUC have a fraction of the membership it once had. That to me are the facts without any agendas at all.
I believe that many employees need a body to protect their interests and that is where the unions went wrong. They only ever had their own interests at heart, and not those of it's members who were paying their weekly subs to the union.
Those are some of the facts but your views are so clouded, it will result in heavy thunderstorms.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009

I do not know enough to argue the financial point, my main point is if you alienate the rest of the country you quickly loose support for your cause, however valid that cause may be.
And my point would be that had the rest of the country really been informed about the truth of the strike the miners would have received far more support than they did...propaganda etc....I will say it again, you were lied to then you are lied to now,the press you may recall me saying on the odd occasion have an agenda, supporting industrial action by anyone certainly isn't on it.......*waits for the usual pro mail shite from the usual parties....socialist jealousy rich powerful * oops there it is up there....crossed in posting Ken

29 Aug 2010

See Staggs that is where you often fall flat on your face my friend.
You ignore a well written factual reply with drivel.
Your arguments are flawed and your hatred of anything that does not sit in your lap is all too clear to see. You let your personnel agendas cloud your judgments.
Your hatred of the media really does you no favours and as for all this propaganda nonsense.............well really I thought you were a bit more cleverer than that.
Still I shall have to have a little word with a mate of mine who is an expert in the strikes of the 70's and 80's and who actually wrote two books on the subject, very very popular ones too I may add. I take his word every second of the day over a media hating union lover, who has let the real events get in the way of a clouded agenda.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
not forgetting scargill's Hench men and the flying pickets and the fact that scargill ignored a ballot against
First I've heard of this ballot....enlighten me please
after researching it last time it came up ,i could only come up with the conclusion that neither scargill or thatcher did what was best by the miners
No argument here I've stated before as has awayman here that Scargill managed the strike badly
scargill does however seem to have managed quite nicely compared with the people he represented
and i would add from an outsider and a little research he looks as much a socialist as branson looks a marxist
I'll make a few assumptions...correct me if I'm wrong,you are I would suspect a believer in capitalism ?you use the national health service? if you have kids they go to state schools?...why would you expect anyone to live in a society that doesn't exist in this country and decry their 'hypocrisy' when you a capitalist are equally if not more culpable...when we have a socialist society I will join you happily on the barricades fighting against this 'hypocrisy' 'til then do not expect people to live their lives in a society that doesn't exist....I don't care about wether or not Scargill has lived a comfortable life from his wage or anyone else for that matter...I am tired of being confronted by this idiot argument about 'socialist hypocrisy' from capitalists who make good use of those few socialist ideals that have been enacted.....it's not big and it's fucking miles from being clever

i support nothing other than my own stagger
i don't believe in marxism socialism ,capitalism communism i don't support any political party or any religion
not till they can answer my question anyway (religion that is )
i love my life
i work on the shop floor with the guys i employ and am a workaholic
and if i believe in any thing then it's that you make your own way in this life and it is what you make it
what money i give away i do without question
what money i have to pay (taxes ) i think i have a right to know its not wasted
i don't do hypocrisy and believe in practice what you preach
i have more time for the planet than i do for humanity
and if i died tomorrow it would be without regret not one
as i have made the most of being on this planet and enjoyed every minute of it
so if you wanna know what i believe in it realism (the idea of live today )
so hopefully your assumption is wrong dunno

29 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Here we go again.
You really do hold the general public in the up most contempt, don't you?
No actually I hold our whole race in very high regard
Do you really believe that the British public are so fucking thick, that they only believed the papers and the politicians? FFS..........people are not blind, they could see back then what the NUM and Scargill were trying to do, remember the winter of discontent?
I think in fact I know people can only judge any given situation on the information given to them....you may remember in the 80's this was given to us by the media...I also know that the majority of the media are not supporters of either the trades union movement or industrial action....you work it out
People are not thick and they know only too well that the unions as a whole were far more powerful than they should ever have been allowed to get too, and the British public have very long memories. I remember the black outs and the rubbish in the streets, and not being able to bury the dead, or is that also a rumour put around by Murdochs press machine??
I well remember the winter of discontent.....the 3 day week the wage cuts and pay freezes the rising unemployment .....as I said it's about which information you're given and also which you choose to use
Never ever underestimate the British public, that has been the downfall of many a strike. Once you no longer have public support you are doomed.
Your arguments at times are so flawed because you believe things from your own personnel prospective,which are not always anywhere near the facts.
I do I admit form my own opinions from the information I have...it's called thinking ,how do you form your opinions?
You are a union man, a supporter of the unions so I do not expect you to have any other views than those that are distorted, and void of substance.
Here's a shock for you I am not and never have been a member of a trades union....not because I wouldn't join one but because I've never worked for a company that had union representation
I on the other hand hate the unions, I hate what they had become and I hated the likes of Scargill sitting in his plush offices, telling his men to go forth and do the business, whilst still raking in the money but.............more importantly the media and the limelight he craved.
And my opinion is distorted by my bias ....physician heal thyself
He cared nothing for the members of the NUM, he was only ever interested in power, which at one point he had in abundance. Then he took on a Tory leader who was sick and tired of unions and their leaders holding the country to ransom. So she and her Government decided once and for all to end the unions power hold over the public. She won they lost...........period.
I find it quite alarming that you're able to so easily put yourself in his position...or is that just what you think.....I always think we base our opinions of others behaviour on what we think we'd do in their position...I have often been proved right....can you possibly think of another set of motivations for Scargills actions or is this the only possible reason you can think of?
No matter what you or I say, the NUM was finished the day the strike was over, as was Scargill. Never again to hold the British public to ransom, for his own personnel agendas.
I don't think that I have anywhere claimed that the strike didn't break the union
You think that is bad, and I think it is fantastic. I believe the majority of the British public would never ever want to go back to those days, and thankfully and hopefully it will not.
The majority of the British public I fear will never get the option...the working classes on the other hand may well hope for stronger representation and a more equitable working environment or shall we ignore the more recent strikes
The print unions tried it as well on the 24 January 1986. They decided to once again take on their employers, just as the miners had done. Wapping was the dispute and as I have been in the print for years my understanding of that dispute is a bit more than the miners.
Bottom line was they also were smashed, stamped into a mess on the pavement outside Wapping, and just like the miners were never the same again. Never to hold the public or their employers to ransom again. No power now at all and the current trouble makers in UNITE had better watch their arses, for the people they pay their money too in the Labour party, are no longer in power. How glad am I of that.
We can sit here all day going backwards and forwards over the same bollocks, at the end of the day the NUM have only 1600 members when at their height they had members. The print unions now hold now power either, those are facts.
They are indeed facts well done .....who told you them?
Thatcher lived to fight another day, whereas Scargill was a broken and beaten man, along with all the other miners who followed him. The unions are nowhere near as powerful nowadays and the TUC have a fraction of the membership it once had. That to me are the facts without any agendas at all.
See it's not the facts I have a problem with ....more the way you present them...that's where the agenda comes in .....a bit like the press really
I believe that many employees need a body to protect their interests and that is where the unions went wrong. They only ever had their own interests at heart, and not those of it's members who were paying their weekly subs to the union.
You were doing so well with all your facts.....then you just fell at the final hurdle..oh well
Those are some of the facts but your views are so clouded, it will result in heavy thunderstorms.
Takes one to know one old boy....I would say there is nothing wrong with the clarity of my thought process but there you go you say tomato I say jackboot

P.S. there is still that little matter of accreditation.......shall I tell them or will you ?

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
not forgetting scargill's Hench men and the flying pickets and the fact that scargill ignored a ballot against
First I've heard of this ballot....enlighten me please
after researching it last time it came up ,i could only come up with the conclusion that neither scargill or thatcher did what was best by the miners
No argument here I've stated before as has awayman here that Scargill managed the strike badly
scargill does however seem to have managed quite nicely compared with the people he represented
and i would add from an outsider and a little research he looks as much a socialist as branson looks a marxist
I'll make a few assumptions...correct me if I'm wrong,you are I would suspect a believer in capitalism ?you use the national health service? if you have kids they go to state schools?...why would you expect anyone to live in a society that doesn't exist in this country and decry their 'hypocrisy' when you a capitalist are equally if not more culpable...when we have a socialist society I will join you happily on the barricades fighting against this 'hypocrisy' 'til then do not expect people to live their lives in a society that doesn't exist....I don't care about wether or not Scargill has lived a comfortable life from his wage or anyone else for that matter...I am tired of being confronted by this idiot argument about 'socialist hypocrisy' from capitalists who make good use of those few socialist ideals that have been enacted.....it's not big and it's fucking miles from being clever

i support nothing other than my own stagger
i don't believe in marxism socialism ,capitalism communism i don't support any political party or any religion
not till they can answer my question anyway (religion that is )
i love my life
i work on the shop floor with the guys i employ and am a workaholic
and if i believe in any thing then it's that you make your own way in this life and it is what you make it
what money i give away i do without question
what money i have to pay (taxes ) i think i have a right to know its not wasted
i don't do hypocrisy and believe in practice what you preach
i have more time for the planet than i do for humanity
and if i died tomorrow it would be without regret not one
as i have made the most of being on this planet and enjoyed every minute of it
so if you wanna know what i believe in it realism (the idea of live today )
so hopefully your assumption is wrong dunno

I apologise if I misrepresented you....I still feel the argument you presented is a straw man

29 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
See Staggs that is where you often fall flat on your face my friend.
You ignore a well written factual reply with drivel.
Your arguments are flawed and your hatred of anything that does not sit in your lap is all too clear to see. You let your personnel agendas cloud your judgments.
Your hatred of the media really does you no favours and as for all this propaganda nonsense.............well really I thought you were a bit more cleverer than that.
Still I shall have to have a little word with a mate of mine who is an expert in the strikes of the 70's and 80's and who actually wrote two books on the subject, very very popular ones too I may add. I take his word every second of the day over a media hating union lover,2 who has let the real events get in the way of a clouded agenda.

Really old boy if you are going to attempt to patronise me use something approaching decent grammar
2...really Ken you crack me up who on earth would do this ????let me see???still thinking???....I'll get back to you lol

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

29 Aug 2010

I always know where your views are flawed Staggs you become even more rude and more obnoxious that usual.
The thing is..........you really cannot see it.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
I always know where your views are flawed Staggs you become even more rude and more obnoxious that usual.
The thing is..........you really cannot see it.

And you as ever evade the point when you're floundering....there's non so blind etc.

29 Aug 2010

....I mean honestly answers...you couldn't have found anywhere with more gravitas if you'd tried..my hat is well and truly off to you

29 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV

How gullible are you?
Nicholas Ridley was one of the cabinet ministers responsible for the plan to close down the deep mined coal industry. The Ridley family estates are one of the bigges sources of surface mined coal in the UK today. We haven't stopped relying on fosil fuel at all - we just get it in a way that benefits landowners like the Ridleys at the expense of communities that have to put up with the disruption and havoc that is surface mining.

The only Ridley in Essex I remember was T.D. Ridley & Sons who brewed a wicked pint near Ford End in the Chelmer Valley on the outskirts of Chelmsford served with great distinction at the Brewery Tap - The Compasses at Littley Green (if you could find it!)!
You might like to know that the current landlord of The Compasses (Joceyln Ridley) is a direct descendant of the Ridley family and is considering brewing beer as a micro sometime in the future :thumbup:
If you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it.
A Ridley in the 80s gave us the energy policy that led to the destruction of the mining industry. His nephew, continuing in the family tradition, was the cretin who chaired Northern Rock so well it had to be nationalized.
And the bastards still sit in Blagdon Hall and bank the profits from open cast coal mining that expanded massively because of the policy Nicholas advocated.

29 Aug 2010

It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur lol

29 Aug 2010

My how people get het up on this site - ought to rename it the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven.
How anyone can believe that the coal mines should have stayed open is simply deluded. Dirty, filthy industry that was expensive to operate and wasteful in resources. Only Unions want to keep a loss making, archaic industry function - at any cost.
Surely no one their right mind can argue that it was Union power that destroyed the British mining industry, the car industry and the British merchant shipping fleet. The Unions were too powerful to accept that the economy was becoming globalised and technology was making man power redundant - resisting that change in the way that they did brought us pain that we still live with today in the form of lost industrial power.
You would have to have a pretty blinkered view of modern history not to see what has happened to our industrial capacity. Want a modern day example - Unite V British Airways exactly the same arguments - resistance to changing work practices in an effort to make the airline more globally competitive. The Unions are effectively destroying British Airways by resisting change and causing the airline to make losses. Who will win????

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Proper gander or fact
Did the whole mining community support the strike...? NO -- Fact
Were the miners who wished to continue working verbally abused...? Yes -- Fact
Were the miners that wished to continue working violently abused....? Yes - Fact
Were bus loads of hard working men attacked by angry mobs as they tried to go about their lawful working day...? Yes -- Fact
Did we, night after night, have to witness violent clashes with police...? Yes -- Fact
Did the country steadily loose support for the miners....? Yes -- Fact
Did the country resent the increasing irresponsible methods employed by some strikers...? Yes -- Fact
These are the things that, in my humble opinion lost the unions/minors their support, and not only were they loosing the country's support but they were also loosing highly valuable customers.
I can not talk for the whole country, but for me having to hear Scargill hysteric's every night on the box was one of the biggest downers for the strikers. He comes over as a very objectionable little man. Not only was he attempting to take on the Government, but he made it feel like he was taking on the whole country and that goes against the grain.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
My how people get het up on this site - ought to rename it the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven.
How anyone can believe that the coal mines should have stayed open is simply deluded. Dirty, filthy industry that was expensive to operate and wasteful in resources. Only Unions want to keep a loss making, archaic industry function - at any cost.
Surely no one their right mind can argue that it was Union power that destroyed the British mining industry, the car industry and the British merchant shipping fleet. The Unions were too powerful to accept that the economy was becoming globalised and technology was making man power redundant - resisting that change in the way that they did brought us pain that we still live with today in the form of lost industrial power.
You would have to have a pretty blinkered view of modern history not to see what has happened to our industrial capacity. Want a modern day example - Unite V British Airways exactly the same arguments - resistance to changing work practices in an effort to make the airline more globally competitive. The Unions are effectively destroying British Airways by resisting change and causing the airline to make losses. Who will win????

Agreed

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
mean honestly answers...you couldn't have found anywhere with more gravitas if you'd tried..my hat is well and truly off to you

Does it really matter where the article comes from? Maybe to you it might but I read it and posted it..simples.
A very fine piece I thought and am glad that I wasted some of your time finding it. Though I never said it was not my piece.
It must have really got up your nose. lol

:lol: :lol:

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
My how people get het up on this site - ought to rename it the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven.
How anyone can believe that the coal mines should have stayed open is simply deluded. Dirty, filthy industry that was expensive to operate and wasteful in resources. Only Unions want to keep a loss making, archaic industry function - at any cost.
Surely no one their right mind can argue that it was Union power that destroyed the British mining industry, the car industry and the British merchant shipping fleet. The Unions were too powerful to accept that the economy was becoming globalised and technology was making man power redundant - resisting that change in the way that they did brought us pain that we still live with today in the form of lost industrial power.
You would have to have a pretty blinkered view of modern history not to see what has happened to our industrial capacity. Want a modern day example - Unite V British Airways exactly the same arguments - resistance to changing work practices in an effort to make the airline more globally competitive. The Unions are effectively destroying British Airways by resisting change and causing the airline to make losses. Who will win????

Agreed
Fuck that is what I have been saying, yet it would have pissed you right off to have agreed with me.
Still that makes me even more happier to be honest.
Sweet dreams Arthur...........sorry I mean Staggs.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Proper gander or fact
Did the whole mining community support the strike...? NO -- Fact
Were the miners who wished to continue working verbally abused...? Yes -- Fact
Were the miners that wished to continue working violently abused....? Yes - Fact
Were bus loads of hard working men attacked by angry mobs as they tried to go about their lawful working day...? Yes -- Fact
Did we, night after night, have to witness violent clashes with police...? Yes -- Fact
Did the country steadily loose support for the miners....? Yes -- Fact
Did the country resent the increasing irresponsible methods employed by some strikers...? Yes -- Fact
These are the things that, in my humble opinion lost the unions/minors their support, and not only were they loosing the country's support but they were also loosing highly valuable customers.
I can not talk for the whole country, but for me having to hear Scargill hysteric's every night on the box was one of the biggest downers for the strikers. He comes over as a very objectionable little man. Not only was he attempting to take on the Government, but he made it feel like he was taking on the whole country and that goes against the grain.
I wont argue with any of the facts above...they are however one side of the coin...here's just a couple from the other ....were police encouraged to remove their numbers and give the miners a kicking...yes fact I have a good friend who policed the picket lines..horses mouth and all the army put in police uniforms and encouraged to give the same miners a good kicking...yes fact, same much of the violence you saw from the miners was provoked by those supposedly policing the pickets....do I think violence from either side was 'right' no...do I think the miners were right to strike yes....propaganda is not only the suppression of the truth but the selective presentation of it.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
My how people get het up on this site - ought to rename it the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven.
How anyone can believe that the coal mines should have stayed open is simply deluded. Dirty, filthy industry that was expensive to operate and wasteful in resources. Only Unions want to keep a loss making, archaic industry function - at any cost.
Surely no one their right mind can argue that it was Union power that destroyed the British mining industry, the car industry and the British merchant shipping fleet. The Unions were too powerful to accept that the economy was becoming globalised and technology was making man power redundant - resisting that change in the way that they did brought us pain that we still live with today in the form of lost industrial power.
You would have to have a pretty blinkered view of modern history not to see what has happened to our industrial capacity. Want a modern day example - Unite V British Airways exactly the same arguments - resistance to changing work practices in an effort to make the airline more globally competitive. The Unions are effectively destroying British Airways by resisting change and causing the airline to make losses. Who will win????

Agreed
Fuck that is what I have been saying, yet it would have pissed you right off to have agreed with me.
Still that makes me even more happier to be honest.
Sweet dreams Arthur...........sorry I mean Staggs.
Do you want to read it again Ken it is the exact opposite of what you've been arguing all night and I suspect not what toohot meant to say....see that bugger Freud creeping in again.....you have been saying that Scargill destroyed the mining industry..and by extension the union....I suspect there should have been a negative somewhere in the highlighted sentence

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Proper gander or fact
Did the whole mining community support the strike...? NO -- Fact
Were the miners who wished to continue working verbally abused...? Yes -- Fact
Were the miners that wished to continue working violently abused....? Yes - Fact
Were bus loads of hard working men attacked by angry mobs as they tried to go about their lawful working day...? Yes -- Fact
Did we, night after night, have to witness violent clashes with police...? Yes -- Fact
Did the country steadily loose support for the miners....? Yes -- Fact
Did the country resent the increasing irresponsible methods employed by some strikers...? Yes -- Fact
These are the things that, in my humble opinion lost the unions/minors their support, and not only were they loosing the country's support but they were also loosing highly valuable customers.
I can not talk for the whole country, but for me having to hear Scargill hysteric's every night on the box was one of the biggest downers for the strikers. He comes over as a very objectionable little man. Not only was he attempting to take on the Government, but he made it feel like he was taking on the whole country and that goes against the grain.
I wont argue with any of the facts above...they are however one side of the coin...here's just a couple from the other ....were police encouraged to remove their numbers and give the miners a kicking...yes fact I have a good friend who policed the picket lines..horses mouth and all the army put in police uniforms and encouraged to give the same miners a good kicking...yes fact, same much of the violence you saw from the miners was provoked by those supposedly policing the pickets....do I think violence from either side was 'right' no...do I think the miners were right to strike yes....propaganda is not only the suppression of the truth but the selective presentation of it.
Well we just have to agree that we interpret the fact in different ways. I agree that dirty tricks were played by both sides.
The thing is, we are capable of making our own minds up. We now have access to all the facts and both sides of the storey, and with hind sight the strike was IMO a mistake and a massive own goal.