NUM | Swinging Heaven

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Proper gander or fact
Did the whole mining community support the strike...? NO -- Fact
Were the miners who wished to continue working verbally abused...? Yes -- Fact
Were the miners that wished to continue working violently abused....? Yes - Fact
Were bus loads of hard working men attacked by angry mobs as they tried to go about their lawful working day...? Yes -- Fact
Did we, night after night, have to witness violent clashes with police...? Yes -- Fact
Did the country steadily loose support for the miners....? Yes -- Fact
Did the country resent the increasing irresponsible methods employed by some strikers...? Yes -- Fact
These are the things that, in my humble opinion lost the unions/minors their support, and not only were they loosing the country's support but they were also loosing highly valuable customers.
I can not talk for the whole country, but for me having to hear Scargill hysteric's every night on the box was one of the biggest downers for the strikers. He comes over as a very objectionable little man. Not only was he attempting to take on the Government, but he made it feel like he was taking on the whole country and that goes against the grain.
I wont argue with any of the facts above...they are however one side of the coin...here's just a couple from the other ....were police encouraged to remove their numbers and give the miners a kicking...yes fact I have a good friend who policed the picket lines..horses mouth and all the army put in police uniforms and encouraged to give the same miners a good kicking...yes fact, same much of the violence you saw from the miners was provoked by those supposedly policing the pickets....do I think violence from either side was 'right' no...do I think the miners were right to strike yes....propaganda is not only the suppression of the truth but the selective presentation of it.
Well we just have to agree that we interpret the fact in different ways. I agree that dirty tricks were played by both sides.
The thing is, we are capable of making our own minds up. We now have access to all the facts and both sides of the storey, and with hind sight the strike was IMO a mistake and a massive own goal.
that's an important word....the mistake was not striking but not having a national ballot

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I'm afraid that most of the country only saw what the press and the government wanted them to see....propaganda as Ben points out is a powerful tool

Proper gander or fact
Did the whole mining community support the strike...? NO -- Fact
Were the miners who wished to continue working verbally abused...? Yes -- Fact
Were the miners that wished to continue working violently abused....? Yes - Fact
Were bus loads of hard working men attacked by angry mobs as they tried to go about their lawful working day...? Yes -- Fact
Did we, night after night, have to witness violent clashes with police...? Yes -- Fact
Did the country steadily loose support for the miners....? Yes -- Fact
Did the country resent the increasing irresponsible methods employed by some strikers...? Yes -- Fact
These are the things that, in my humble opinion lost the unions/minors their support, and not only were they loosing the country's support but they were also loosing highly valuable customers.
I can not talk for the whole country, but for me having to hear Scargill hysteric's every night on the box was one of the biggest downers for the strikers. He comes over as a very objectionable little man. Not only was he attempting to take on the Government, but he made it feel like he was taking on the whole country and that goes against the grain.
I wont argue with any of the facts above...they are however one side of the coin...here's just a couple from the other ....were police encouraged to remove their numbers and give the miners a kicking...yes fact I have a good friend who policed the picket lines..horses mouth and all the army put in police uniforms and encouraged to give the same miners a good kicking...yes fact, same much of the violence you saw from the miners was provoked by those supposedly policing the pickets....do I think violence from either side was 'right' no...do I think the miners were right to strike yes....propaganda is not only the suppression of the truth but the selective presentation of it.
Well we just have to agree that we interpret the fact in different ways. I agree that dirty tricks were played by both sides.
The thing is, we are capable of making our own minds up. We now have access to all the facts and both sides of the storey, and with hind sight the strike was IMO a mistake and a massive own goal.
that's an important word....the mistake was not striking but not having a national ballot
That was just one of several, IMO

29 Aug 2010

Quote by ForestFunsters
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.

29 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
One mans meat is another mans poison dunno

29 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
One mans meat is another mans poison dunno

A fair idiom I agree but I'd also choose another. People can sometimes become very 'wrapped up in oneself'

29 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
Fair point well put I'd say....seconded by the man in the silly hat

29 Aug 2010

This is an interesting piece written by a man who was a TUC trades unionist at the time of the strikes.

29 Aug 2010

IMO the man in the silly hat speaks a lot of sense biggrin

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
not forgetting scargill's Hench men and the flying pickets and the fact that scargill ignored a ballot against
First I've heard of this ballot....enlighten me please

my apologies (my bad for speed reading links i still had saved)
he ignored calls for a national ballot fearing that it would be against the strike gaulston's post was pretty much the same as was in my link

30 Aug 2010

i am also intrigued as to if the pits were viable why was they not taken over by a independent
of even more to the point why didn't scargill use the num funds to reopen one pit and then build on it dunno

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
Where have I heard that kind of drivel before?
You will be amongst friends on this site for sure, but I will not be singing your tune.
It is a fact that the police earned a lot of money through overtime, and obviously people benefited from that extra money...........where is the problem with that?
The miners lost almost everything and some gained a lot.........the way of the world I would say.
As has been said already..........." the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven ".
Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. :twisted:
I get so tired of hearing the same old tune over and over and over and over......:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Concerning the overtime comment,it is a fact of the forum that empathy is an underated virtue.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
i am also intrigued as to if the pits were viable why was they not taken over by a independent
of even more to the point why didn't scargill use the num funds to reopen one pit and then build on it

Because they were deliberately closed in a way that made re-opening them impossible, and because the NCB had a monopoly of coal mining over a set output, which was only removed when British Coal was privatized.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
Where have I heard that kind of drivel before?
You will be amongst friends on this site for sure, but I will not be singing your tune.
It is a fact that the police earned a lot of money through overtime, and obviously people benefited from that extra money...........where is the problem with that?
The miners lost almost everything and some gained a lot.........the way of the world I would say.
As has been said already..........." the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven ".
Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. :twisted:
I get so tired of hearing the same old tune over and over and over and over......:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:
Yes a lot of police benefitted financially through the extra overtime and there is nothing wrong with that in principal but for someone to actually "look back fondly" and gloat when others lost so much is what I find so disgusting.
Also some might say that if the police hadn't been so heavyhanded and devious in their policing of the strike, the civil war it became may not have lasted so long in which case they would not have earned so much in overtime dunno

30 Aug 2010

Well that could well be true, but then again it could be said that if flying pickets hell bent on intimidation and violence had not been sent to places where miners were going back to work, the huge police presence would not have been needed.
When you have a section of people like the hard line miners pickets being sent sometimes hundreds of miles away, with the deliberate intention of stopping those from working, what the heck do you think the police are supposed to do?
In my book you meet violence with violence and in 1985 that is what the police did, and in my book rightly so.
Nowadays though God forbid any police officer defending themselves, and then injuring the attacker............pc madness which did not exist in 1985 but exists today.........mores the pity.
A brilliant clip.

30 Aug 2010

ForestFunsters may well indeed have been a beneficiary of the action but it might be a bit harsh to castigate this member just on that basis - after all, it was the hard work and extreme danger that FF's father faced which raised the funds for the new car not any action by FF! Why shouldn't FF be cock-a-hoot? A 21 year old getting a smart new car! A typical British reaction to someone who fortunes change for the better; dumb them down! Petty jealousy.
The Police Officers on the front line were doing no more than their masters bid and for which they were paid, rightly so. Had the miners not taken on the Government and not acted with dubious legality, there would have been no need for FF's father to have been there in the first place.

30 Aug 2010

Jealousy? Hardly rolleyes

I wouldn't want something that came from blood money. So the police were just following orders were they? They didn't incite the miners at all? The media coverage was not carefully edited to remove scenes of police brutality?
Just one account of incitement, there are many more.

Maybe you would like to read State of Siege: Miners' Strike, 1984 - Politics and Policing in the Coal Fields
As Kentswingers is posting links, here are a few

30 Aug 2010

And maybe if Thatcher hadn't declared war on the mining industry and the NUM, FF's father wouldn't have been there?

30 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV
ForestFunsters may well indeed have been a beneficiary of the action but it might be a bit harsh to castigate this member just on that basis - after all, it was the hard work and extreme danger that FF's father faced which raised the funds for the new car not any action by FF! Why shouldn't FF be cock-a-hoot? A 21 year old getting a smart new car! A typical British reaction to someone who fortunes change for the better; dumb them down! Petty jealousy.
The Police Officers on the front line were doing no more than their masters bid and for which they were paid, rightly so. Had the miners not taken on the Government and not acted with dubious legality, there would have been no need for FF's father to have been there in the first place.

Bang on the money GNV.....
Can someone more in the know explain this to me...

It clearly states...." It is as plain as a pikestaff that without a national ballot the strike in Derbyshire is unlawful and contravenes union rules,".
I know why Scargill was so against a national ballot....he knew he would probably lose, so called the strike anyway.

Quote by mad Scargill then
But Mr Scargill dismissed the court's findings as irrelevant, describing them as "another attempt by an unelected judge to interfere in the union's affairs."

Irrelevant indeedy Arfur.
Irrelevant to you as you was not going to be told by anyone what to do, you felt you held the reigns of power and you abused them for your own agendas.
It is he and he alone that I blame.....his own altered ego and he got exactly what he deserved.
Instead of counting sheep to get him to sleep, he no doubts counts as many Maggies as he can. That probably keeps him awake all night in cold sweats, as a constant reminder of his total humiliation. Now the humiliation is complete for him....no more a member of the NUM.....lovely.
Oh how the once mighty have fallen on their sword.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
And maybe if Thatcher hadn't declared war on the mining industry and the NUM, FF's father wouldn't have been there?

Ermmmmmmmmmm...........excuse me?
She declared war where exactly?
She did what many people wanted her to do, and that was to put an end to the unions holding all the country to ransom.
She was not going to buckle under threats of intimidation and violence.
She was certainly not going to go down the road of Heaths Government, and be ousted by a gaggle of miners. Lessons from that were duly noted by her.
The NUM brought down a previous Tory Government and you expect her to do what exactly? Pussy foot around with Scargill and his cronies?
She took the hard line stance and after what had gone on before do you really blame her?
Her tactics were superb.........history tells us that...... " this lady is not for turning ". Bloody right she was not.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
And maybe if Thatcher hadn't declared war on the mining industry and the NUM, FF's father wouldn't have been there?

to many if's
you cant change history
but you can learn from it and move on
from a article i read by a miner he stated that pit closure was inevitable and better redundancies and retraining was needed and that should have been negotiated
not a war to settle who was the biggest egomaniac

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Bang on the money GNV.....
Can someone more in the know explain this to me...

It clearly states...." It is as plain as a pikestaff that without a national ballot the strike in Derbyshire is unlawful and contravenes union rules,".
I know why Scargill was so against a national ballot....he knew he would probably lose, so called the strike anyway.
But Mr Scargill dismissed the court's findings as irrelevant, describing them as "another attempt by an unelected judge to interfere in the union's affairs."

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy

Bang on the money GNV.....
Can someone more in the know explain this to me...

It clearly states...." It is as plain as a pikestaff that without a national ballot the strike in Derbyshire is unlawful and contravenes union rules,".
I know why Scargill was so against a national ballot....he knew he would probably lose, so called the strike anyway.
But Mr Scargill dismissed the court's findings as irrelevant, describing them as "another attempt by an unelected judge to interfere in the union's affairs."

Sorry matey but I never listen to what a blatant left wing newspaper has to write, certainly with it's own left wing agendas and openly a hater of Thatcher.
You show me where Thatcher said the word " war " herself. It is a typical over hyped reactionary response by a left wing rag.
I am suprised that the Guardian are still going and more importantly making any money, with such a low readership.
This snippet is particularly interesting...
" A full account of the strike of 1984/85 is still to be written. However, we have learned more and more about the then Labour party leader, Neil Kinnock's treachery, the betrayals by the TUC and the class collaboration of union leaders such as Eric Hammond (the electricians' EETPU) and John Lyons (Engineers and Managers Association), who instructed their members to cross picket lines and did all they could to defeat the miners.
We have also seen how many who, like Kinnock, bleated constantly about the need for a ballot during the miners' strike didn't call for the British people to have a ballot in 2003 when Tony Blair took the nation into an unlawful war and the occupation of Iraq ".
That could have been written by a number of members on here.
What is interesting about that deluded article is the fact that Scargill blames everyone else, including the leader of the Labour party, for the downfall of the the miners strike. The only person to take none of the blame is himself......how interesting is that?
You obviously do not know me very well on here. wink

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
And maybe if Thatcher hadn't declared war on the mining industry and the NUM, FF's father wouldn't have been there?

Ermmmmmmmmmm...........excuse me?
She declared war where exactly?
She did what many people wanted her to do, and that was to put an end to the unions holding all the country to ransom.
She was not going to buckle under threats of intimidation and violence.
She was certainly not going to go down the road of Heaths Government, and be ousted by a gaggle of miners. Lessons from that were duly noted by her.
The NUM brought down a previous Tory Government and you expect her to do what exactly? Pussy foot around with Scargill and his cronies?
She took the hard line stance and after what had gone on before do you really blame her?
Her tactics were superb.........history tells us that...... " this lady is not for turning ". Bloody right she was not.
Many being who exactly? The majority of the country were behind the miners and their fight to stop the pits being closed.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
Many being who exactly? The majority of the country were behind the miners and their fight to stop the pits being closed.

I would say the millions of decent hard working people who had not long gone through the winter of discontent, and who were sick and tired of the unions holding the country to ransom.
I shall give you the benefit of the doubt for a second and let us presume that the country was behind the miners.
At the end of that strike the country had turned on the miners....why was that?

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Sorry matey but I never listen to what a blatant left wing newspaper has to write, certainly with it's own left wing agendas and openly a hater of Thatcher.
You show me where Thatcher said the word " war " herself. It is a typical over hyped reactionary response by a left wing rag.
I am suprised that the Guardian are still going and more importantly making any money, with such a low readership.
This snippet is particularly interesting...
" A full account of the strike of 1984/85 is still to be written. However, we have learned more and more about the then Labour party leader, Neil Kinnock's treachery, the betrayals by the TUC and the class collaboration of union leaders such as Eric Hammond (the electricians' EETPU) and John Lyons (Engineers and Managers Association), who instructed their members to cross picket lines and did all they could to defeat the miners.
We have also seen how many who, like Kinnock, bleated constantly about the need for a ballot during the miners' strike didn't call for the British people to have a ballot in 2003 when Tony Blair took the nation into an unlawful war and the occupation of Iraq ".
That could have been written by a number of members on here.
What is interesting about that deluded article is the fact that Scargill blames everyone else, including the leader of the Labour party, for the downfall of the the miners strike. The only person to take none of the blame is himself......how interesting is that?
You obviously do not know me very well on here.

She may not have actually used the words but that is exactly what she did! Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Scargill and his handling of the strike could certainly have been better but the fact is the strike would have happened with or without him. In fact he didn't call it, nor did he refuse a ballot and the decisions as to whether to stay out or go back were made at the pitheads and in the communities. There are many who have and still are castigating him for castigations sake.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Many being who exactly? The majority of the country were behind the miners and their fight to stop the pits being closed.

I would say the millions of decent hard working people who had not long gone through the winter of discontent, and who were sick and tired of the unions holding the country to ransom.
I shall give you the benefit of the doubt for a second and let us presume that the country was behind the miners.
At the end of that strike the country had turned on the miners....why was that?
Because of the media crucifixion against Scargill, they were hell bent on destroying him and in doing so the propaganda surrounding the strike that was spewed did nothing to help the miners cause. Footage of picketlines was edited to remove scenes of police brutality and incitement to make it look like all the hostility was from the miners. I could go on and on but that would just clearly be a waste of my time.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
She may not have actually used the words but that is exactly what she did.

Ah right so the words " war " were not used by her, but were used by the lefts own agendas....right got it now.

Quote by s3xyl3xy
Because of the media crucifixion against Scargill, they were hell bent on destroying him and in doing so the propaganda surrounding the strike that was spewed did nothing to help the miners cause. Footage of picketlines was edited to remove scenes of police brutality and incitement to make it look like all the hostility was from the miners. I could go on and on but that would just clearly be a waste of my time.

I have heard on this forum so many times about the media that it is so boring. The British public I am sure can see through all the crap the papers may write, but on this occasion they saw it for themselves plastered over the telly every night.
The bit above regarding news being edited to remove scenes of police brutality, is sorry but a typical blame everyone else lefty take on things.
Are you really saying in this forum that the police were the trouble makers and the miners were the innocents? That is how it seems from my end.
Do you actually know about the flying pickets and what their sole aims were? Did the flying pickets use intimidation and violence to try and stoke up the flames even further, and then to try every dirty trick in the book to stop other miners from working?
I am not saying that the police were innocent in all this, but when you are faced with such anger and violence on the front line of mass hysteria,what would you have done?

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
It wasn't all bad - I remember the miner's strike fondly. My dad was a London copper - him and his colleagues were bussed up north and earnt huge amounts of overtime oppressing the miners. I got a new XR3 for my 21st birthday. Bless you, Arthur

The above post utterly disgusts me. To selfishly revel in the misfortune of others is beyond contempt.
Where have I heard that kind of drivel before?
You will be amongst friends on this site for sure, but I will not be singing your tune.
It is a fact that the police earned a lot of money through overtime, and obviously people benefited from that extra money...........where is the problem with that?
The miners lost almost everything and some gained a lot.........the way of the world I would say.
As has been said already..........." the Socialist Republic of Swinging Heaven ".
Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze. :twisted:
I get so tired of hearing the same old tune over and over and over and over......:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:
See we do agree on some things

30 Aug 2010

Staggs you come back for another political ear bashing? lol

That is a fecking worry.......we have agreed twice now in three days.
Steady on old fella we cannot be having that now. wink

As I go and scurry off to find something that I know Staggs will not agree with....:wave2: