NUM | Swinging Heaven

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
She may not have actually used the words but that is exactly what she did.

Ah right so the words " war " were not used by her, but were used by the lefts own agendas....right got it now.

Quote by s3xyl3xy
Because of the media crucifixion against Scargill, they were hell bent on destroying him and in doing so the propaganda surrounding the strike that was spewed did nothing to help the miners cause. Footage of picketlines was edited to remove scenes of police brutality and incitement to make it look like all the hostility was from the miners. I could go on and on but that would just clearly be a waste of my time.

I have heard on this forum so many times about the media that it is so boring. The British public I am sure can see through all the crap the papers may write, but on this occasion they saw it for themselves plastered over the telly every night.
The bit above regarding news being edited to remove scenes of police brutality, is sorry but a typical blame everyone else lefty take on things.
Are you really saying in this forum that the police were the trouble makers and the miners were the innocents? That is how it seems from my end.
Do you actually know about the flying pickets and what their sole aims were? Did the flying pickets use intimidation and violence to try and stoke up the flames even further, and then to try every dirty trick in the book to stop other miners from working?
I am not saying that the police were innocent in all this, but when you are faced with such anger and violence on the front line of mass hysteria,what would you have done?
I am Ken....as I said earlier I have a good friend who was a policeman at the time he was..."fucking disgusted at the behaviour of the cunts I was working with"...as I also said horses mouth etc.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Staggs you come back for another political ear bashing?
That is a fecking worry.......we have agreed twice now in three days.
Steady on old fella we cannot be having that now.
As I go and scurry off to find something that I know Staggs will not agree with....:wave2:

You really should be on stage you know....I'd suggest big shoes and lots of make-up

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Regarding the police,i seem to remember that police forces from non mining areas were deliberately used as they would have no sympathies with the strikers.
Does anyone have any information on this ?

My friend was on the force in Sheffield and policed Orgreave and a few other local pits...but there were police and army from all over the country during the major confrontations

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
And maybe if Thatcher hadn't declared war on the mining industry and the NUM, FF's father wouldn't have been there?

Ermmmmmmmmmm...........excuse me?
She declared war where exactly?
She did what many people wanted her to do, and that was to put an end to the unions holding all the country to ransom.
She was not going to buckle under threats of intimidation and violence.
She was certainly not going to go down the road of Heaths Government, and be ousted by a gaggle of miners. Lessons from that were duly noted by her.
The NUM brought down a previous Tory Government and you expect her to do what exactly? Pussy foot around with Scargill and his cronies?
She took the hard line stance and after what had gone on before do you really blame her?
Her tactics were superb.........history tells us that...... " this lady is not for turning ". Bloody right she was not.
Many being who exactly? The majority of the country were behind the miners and their fight to stop the pits being closed.
Only at the start
*QUOTE* Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know. When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know. In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know. When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.
A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
From here

And as I said earlier, due the these and other reasons the country lost sympathy's with the strikers.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
*SNIP*
I am Ken....as I said earlier I have a good friend who was a policeman at the time he was..."fucking disgusted at the behaviour of the cunts I was working with"...as I also said horses mouth etc.

I do not think we can tar them all with the same brush. The strikers also behaved as animals at time's, equally unprovoked

30 Aug 2010

To be honest, I think this one has been done to death.
I can't see that either side of the divide is going to modify their view based on the current level of debate and I can't think of any earth shatteringly significant point in my sphere of knowledge that might hold a sway either way so if you won't think bad of me for ducking out, I think there might be something on the telly...

30 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV
To be honest, I think this one has been done to death.
I can't see that either side of the divide is going to modify their view based on the current level of debate and I can't think of any earth shatteringly significant point in my sphere of knowledge that might hold a sway either way so if you won't think bad of me for ducking out, I think there might be something on the telly...

:thumbup:
:giveup:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009

*SNIP*
I am Ken....as I said earlier I have a good friend who was a policeman at the time he was..."fucking disgusted at the behaviour of the cunts I was working with"...as I also said horses mouth etc.

I do not think we can tar them all with the same brush. The strikers also behaved as animals at time's, equally unprovoked
I didn't try to tar anybody with any brush...I merely reported the opinion of a serving police officer

30 Aug 2010

Thatcher was a cunt...Scargill was a cunt...simples!

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

*SNIP*
I am Ken....as I said earlier I have a good friend who was a policeman at the time he was..."fucking disgusted at the behaviour of the cunts I was working with"...as I also said horses mouth etc.

I do not think we can tar them all with the same brush. The strikers also behaved as animals at time's, equally unprovoked
I didn't try to tar anybody with any brush...I merely reported the opinion of a serving police officer
I merely stated the opposing opinion wink

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Mr-Powers
Thatcher was a cunt...Scargill was a cunt...simples!

I think you are a top banana Powers.
That is why I like you...........you call a cunt a cunt.:rascal:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Thatcher was a cunt...Scargill was a cunt...simples!

I think you are a top banana Powers.
That is why I like you...........you call a cunt a cunt.:rascal:
Yep...just don't get me started on that biggest cunt of all...Churchill! wink

30 Aug 2010

:laughabove::laughabove:

30 Aug 2010

Now the tone has been lowered :sad:

30 Aug 2010

Nah Blue - it was never that high to start with

30 Aug 2010

Quote by vampanya
Nah Blue - it was never that high to start with

You may have a valid point wink

30 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV
To be honest, I think this one has been done to death.
I can't see that either side of the divide is going to modify their view based on the current level of debate and I can't think of any earth shatteringly significant point in my sphere of knowledge that might hold a sway either way so if you won't think bad of me for ducking out, I think there might be something on the telly...

Well said as usual!

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Only at the start
*QUOTE* Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know. When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know. In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know. When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.
A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
From here

And as I said earlier, due the these and other reasons the country lost sympathy's with the strikers.

I think the key words here are "varied greatly in different regions" Take a poll one day in one place and you will get one lot of responses, do the same thing again the next day somewhere else and get something different altogether.
The incident with the taxi driver was horrendous and those two men deserved to go to jail, but that was just two men out of all the striking miners and what do the media do, they milk it for all it's worth. If anything swayed public opinion it was the planting of the false stories about Scargill apparently being funded Colonel Gadafi! The story was planted in the Mirror and it was well known that Maxwell hated Scargill with a vengeance. It was decided by MI5 that planting the story in a "Labour" sympathetic paper would without doubt add to its credibility.
Dame Stella Rimington (Director-General of MI5, 1992 – 1996) published an autobiography in 2001 in which she revealed MI5 'counter-subversion' exercises against the NUM and the striking miners.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy

Only at the start
*QUOTE* Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know. When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know. In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know. When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.
A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
From here

And as I said earlier, due the these and other reasons the country lost sympathy's with the strikers.

I think the key words here are "varied greatly in different regions" Take a poll one day in one place and you will get one lot of responses, do the same thing again the next day somewhere else and get something different altogether.
The incident with the taxi driver was horrendous and those two men deserved to go to jail, but that was just two men out of all the striking miners and what do the media do, they milk it for all it's worth. If anything swayed public opinion it was the planting of the false stories about Scargill apparently being funded by Colonel Gadafi! The story was planted in the Mirror and it was well known that Maxwell hated Scargill with a vengeance. It was thought by MI5 that planting the story in a "Labour" sympathetic paper would add to its credibility.
Dame Stella Rimington (Director-General of MI5, 1992 – 1996) published an autobiography in 2001 in which she revealed MI5 'counter-subversion' exercises against the NUM and the striking miners.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
People dont post on a politics forum on a swinging site to change opinions G! Actually people dont generally post on any forum to change opinions!
Change happens by doing real things in the real why i joined a political party for the first time in my life. .If people feel that things have been said that are untrue then no wonder they wish to carry on the debate.
i usually post when i see bigotry and prejudice running rampant.i dont expect to change a single opinion,but at least it means that more than one view is represented.

So how are you going to change anything by joining a political party dunno

If you have the spare time on your hands good luck to you, but you will not change if it makes you feel better....
" The majority of this thread has been to do with factual innacuracies and misinformation ". I agree with that one, Staggs does talk a load of rubbish at times :lol: :lol:
I thought this thread was varied and interesting, and it beats the hell out of playing scrabble.
Nine pages with a lot of posters airing their views....cannot see anything wrong in that at all, or shall we all just talk for one page about fluffy bunnies?
As the Cafe is thatAWAY>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy

Only at the start
*QUOTE* Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know. When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know. In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know. When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.
A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
From here

And as I said earlier, due the these and other reasons the country lost sympathy's with the strikers.

I think the key words here are "varied greatly in different regions" Take a poll one day in one place and you will get one lot of responses, do the same thing again the next day somewhere else and get something different altogether.
The incident with the taxi driver was horrendous and those two men deserved to go to jail, but that was just two men out of all the striking miners and what do the media do, they milk it for all it's worth. If anything swayed public opinion it was the planting of the false stories about Scargill apparently being funded Colonel Gadafi! The story was planted in the Mirror and it was well known that Maxwell hated Scargill with a vengeance. It was decided by MI5 that planting the story in a "Labour" sympathetic paper would without doubt add to its credibility.
Dame Stella Rimington (Director-General of MI5, 1992 -- 1996) published an autobiography in 2001 in which she revealed MI5 'counter-subversion' exercises against the NUM and the striking miners.
I do not think either side can hold the morral high ground, I can only tell you the stickers lost the support of much of the country with the under hand tack ticks that they employed.
What makes me chuckle is the fact that one side of the story is is whiter than white and the other is all made up by the media and some conspiracy theory. By the end of the strike, the miners had virtually no media support, and that was plain and simple down to them and their miss-guided tack ticks, not a conspiracy.

30 Aug 2010

No point wasting your time typing Blue.
The truth is there for all to see, and there are many impartial web sites and books that state exactly what you have just written.
The real truth of it is that the miners were defeated by a Tory Government, and in particular Thatcher....that is what really sticks in the throats of those that decide to blame the media, or blame Thatcher.
The hatred of Thatcher and the Tories and the Murdoch press has been as easy to spot in this forum, as a cat turd in a litter tray, it is obvious that it smells.
The friend of mine who wrote impartial books on the subject has laughed his head off at some of the views expressed here.
As he stated to me on the phone today...." some people cannot see the sea at the seaside, they can only see the sand and the pebbles ". A strange way of putting things but I understood exactly what he was saying.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
No point wasting your time typing Blue.
The truth is there for all to see, and there are many impartial web sites and books that state exactly what you have just written.
The real truth of it is that the miners were defeated by a Tory Government, and in particular Thatcher....that is what really sticks in the throats of those that decide to blame the media, or blame Thatcher.
The hatred of Thatcher and the Tories and the Murdoch press has been as easy to spot in this forum, as a cat turd in a litter tray, it is obvious that it smells.
The friend of mine who wrote impartial books on the subject has laughed his head off at some of the views expressed here.
As he stated to me on the phone today...." some people cannot see the sea at the seaside, they can only see the sand and the pebbles ". A strange way of putting things but I understood exactly what he was saying.

Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009

Only at the start
*QUOTE* Public opinion during the strike was divided and varied greatly in different regions. When asked in a Gallup poll in July 1984 whether their sympathies lay mainly with the employers or the miners, 40% said employers; 33% were for the miners; 19% were for neither and 8% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 51% had most sympathy for the employers; 26% for the miners; 18% for neither and 5% did not know. When asked in July 1984 whether they approved or disapproved of the methods used by the miners, 15% approved; 79% disapproved and 6% did not know. When asked the same question during 5--10 December 1984, 7% approved; 88% disapproved and 5% did not know. In July 1984, when asked whether they thought the miners were using responsible or irresponsible methods, 12% said responsible; 78% said irresponsible and 10% did not know. When asked the same question in August 1984, 9% said responsible; 84% said irresponsible and 7% did not know.
A taxi driver, David Wilkie, was killed on 30 November 1984. He had been taking a non-striking miner to work in the Merthyr Vale Colliery, South Wales when two striking miners dropped a concrete post onto his car from a road bridge above. He died at the scene. The two miners served a prison sentence for manslaughter.
From here

And as I said earlier, due the these and other reasons the country lost sympathy's with the strikers.

I think the key words here are "varied greatly in different regions" Take a poll one day in one place and you will get one lot of responses, do the same thing again the next day somewhere else and get something different altogether.
The incident with the taxi driver was horrendous and those two men deserved to go to jail, but that was just two men out of all the striking miners and what do the media do, they milk it for all it's worth. If anything swayed public opinion it was the planting of the false stories about Scargill apparently being funded Colonel Gadafi! The story was planted in the Mirror and it was well known that Maxwell hated Scargill with a vengeance. It was decided by MI5 that planting the story in a "Labour" sympathetic paper would without doubt add to its credibility.
Dame Stella Rimington (Director-General of MI5, 1992 -- 1996) published an autobiography in 2001 in which she revealed MI5 'counter-subversion' exercises against the NUM and the striking miners.
I do not think either side can hold the morral high ground, I can only tell you the stickers lost the support of much of the country with the under hand tack ticks that they employed.
What makes me chuckle is the fact that one side of the story is is whiter than white and the other is all made up by the media and some conspiracy theory. By the end of the strike, the miners had virtually no media support, and that was plain and simple down to them and their miss-guided tack ticks, not a conspiracy.
I don't think anyone has made any such claim....other than those against the strike..I've said it was badly managed and the violence from both sides was wrong..awayman has made similar comments..as has s3xy...the only ones claiming any kind of moral high ground it would appear are you and Ken....

30 Aug 2010

@Bluefish- Noone is saying that the miners and the unions were whiter than white but it all certainly did not go down in the way the media portrayed it. No conspiracy theories either, just facts especially in terms of what MI5 had a hand in and in terms of the provocation and heavyhandedness from the police.
@Kentswingers - I don't quite get how this friend of yours can laugh his head off so much at some of the opinions you have relayed to him today The contents of his books are clearly not as "impartial" as you make them out to be. And btw my opinions have nothing to do with Thatcher and the Tories, why do people always assume that, I have my own mind and am not influenced by any political bias.

30 Aug 2010

Well I have not written any books but as a 24 year old at the time I watched fascinated as the Miners fought to keep unprofitable pits open, to keep outdated working processes and massive inefficies in the workplace. They lost big time and our country was better because of that.
This forum seems to be full of hyped up lefties with no concept of moving on in life and natural evolution. I find it incomprehensible that some people just can't accept that things in life change and shit happens all the time. Moaning and bleating about it 25 years later is just bollocks. Why on earth should dirty, filthy, stinking mines that could not turn a profit be kept open just to keep people in a job? That is why we have no industrial capacity anymore in this country - the Unions forced uneconomic practices in the motor indudtry, steel, mining and shipping - and now its all gone to countries with a more progressive attitide to industrial evolution.
Shit happens unfortunately but you can't do what the Miners did especially with a Prime Minister like we had at the time.
Embrace change, rejoice in the challenge.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
Well I have not written any books but as a 24 year old at the time I watched fascinated as the Miners fought to keep unprofitable pits open, to keep outdated working processes and massive inefficies in the workplace. They lost big time and our country was better because of that.
This forum seems to be full of hyped up lefties with no concept of moving on in life and natural evolution. I find it incomprehensible that some people just can't accept that things in life change and shit happens all the time. Moaning and bleating about it 25 years later is just bollocks. Why on earth should dirty, filthy, stinking mines that could not turn a profit be kept open just to keep people in a job? That is why we have no industrial capacity anymore in this country - the Unions forced uneconomic practices in the motor indudtry, steel, mining and shipping - and now its all gone to countries with a more progressive attitide to industrial evolution.
Shit happens unfortunately but you can't do what the Miners did especially with a Prime Minister like we had at the time.
Embrace change, rejoice in the challenge.

Some may have been unprofitable but pits do not always remain as such. This article makes interesting reading.

He made the point in the Commons on the 25th anniversary of the start of the miners’ strike in March. He told MPs that Britain would have been better off if the Tories had not closed the pits and, instead, used UK coal supplies.
'The legacy is we’re now relying on countries we don’t trust to supply our energy,” Dennis said. “Privatisation means energy companies are often not even owned by people in Britain. We should have used the energy underneath our feet and saved our North Sea oil for a rainy day.'
Dennis feels common sense was pushed aside in the frenetic push to crush the unions.
'In mining you are battling against Mother Nature. Sometimes you come across a white face caused by a collapse in the strata and a pit would become uneconomic. But that can change. A pit may have a bad year, then find a new seam and have 30 more good years. Also, when the closures began, we had already developed and opened a clean coal plant. But when you are involved in revenge, when you are determined to do better than Ted Heath and tame the miners, rationalisation and reason go out of the window.'
Besides which closing the pits has scored the UK an almighty own goal. As I posted earlier in the thread as a result of the impending energy crisis we are now at risk of being held to ransom by Poland and other countries who are supplying us.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
@Bluefish - Noone is saying that the miners and the unions were whiter than white but it all certainly did not go down in the way the media portrayed it. No conspiracy theories either, just facts especially in terms of what MI5 had a hand in and in terms of the provocation and heavyhandedness from the police.
@Kentswingers - I don't quite get how this friend of yours can laugh his head off so much at some of the opinions you have relayed to him today The contents of his books are clearly not as "impartial" as you make them out to be. And btw my opinions have nothing to do with Thatcher and the Tories, why do people always assume that, I have my own mind and am not influenced by any political bias.

Yes and I, have stuck to the facts also dunno

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
Well I have not written any books but as a 24 year old at the time I watched fascinated as the Miners fought to keep unprofitable pits open, to keep outdated working processes and massive inefficies in the workplace. They lost big time and our country was better because of that.
This forum seems to be full of hyped up lefties with no concept of moving on in life and natural evolution. I find it incomprehensible that some people just can't accept that things in life change and shit happens all the time. Moaning and bleating about it 25 years later is just bollocks. Why on earth should dirty, filthy, stinking mines that could not turn a profit be kept open just to keep people in a job? That is why we have no industrial capacity anymore in this country - the Unions forced uneconomic practices in the motor indudtry, steel, mining and shipping - and now its all gone to countries with a more progressive attitide to industrial evolution.
Shit happens unfortunately but you can't do what the Miners did especially with a Prime Minister like we had at the time.
Embrace change, rejoice in the challenge.

Some may have been unprofitable but pits do not always remain as such. This article makes interesting reading.

He made the point in the Commons on the 25th anniversary of the start of the miners’ strike in March. He told MPs that Britain would have been better off if the Tories had not closed the pits and, instead, used UK coal supplies.
'The legacy is we’re now relying on countries we don’t trust to supply our energy,” Dennis said. “Privatisation means energy companies are often not even owned by people in Britain. We should have used the energy underneath our feet and saved our North Sea oil for a rainy day.'
Dennis feels common sense was pushed aside in the frenetic push to crush the unions.
'In mining you are battling against Mother Nature. Sometimes you come across a white face caused by a collapse in the strata and a pit would become uneconomic. But that can change. A pit may have a bad year, then find a new seam and have 30 more good years. Also, when the closures began, we had already developed and opened a clean coal plant. But when you are involved in revenge, when you are determined to do better than Ted Heath and tame the miners, rationalisation and reason go out of the window.'
Besides which closing the pits has scored the UK an almighty own goal. As I posted earlier in the thread as a result of the impending energy crisis we are now at risk of being held to ransom by Poland and other countrieswho are supplying us.
Time to look to the future and greener methods of electricity production, rather than carbon based fuels, for the sake of the planet