NUM | Swinging Heaven

30 Aug 2010

OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.
So do you know which opinions and the specifics of his objections or not?

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
@Bluefish - Noone is saying that the miners and the unions were whiter than white but it all certainly did not go down in the way the media portrayed it. No conspiracy theories either, just facts especially in terms of what MI5 had a hand in and in terms of the provocation and heavyhandedness from the police.
@Kentswingers - I don't quite get how this friend of yours can laugh his head off so much at some of the opinions you have relayed to him today The contents of his books are clearly not as "impartial" as you make them out to be. And btw my opinions have nothing to do with Thatcher and the Tories, why do people always assume that, I have my own mind and am not influenced by any political bias.

Yes and I, have stuck to the facts also dunno

Thing is blue no-one as far as I can recall has questioned your facts...you only seem to accept that there was one side to the story as does Ken...Those of us who supported the miners have had to be more critical of our view because of the failure of the strike ,it still looks as if those of you who opposed them have made no attempt to re-evaluate your view or to accept that both sides made 'mistakes' (for want of a better word)

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Well I have not written any books but as a 24 year old at the time I watched fascinated as the Miners fought to keep unprofitable pits open, to keep outdated working processes and massive inefficies in the workplace. They lost big time and our country was better because of that.
This forum seems to be full of hyped up lefties with no concept of moving on in life and natural evolution. I find it incomprehensible that some people just can't accept that things in life change and shit happens all the time. Moaning and bleating about it 25 years later is just bollocks. Why on earth should dirty, filthy, stinking mines that could not turn a profit be kept open just to keep people in a job? That is why we have no industrial capacity anymore in this country - the Unions forced uneconomic practices in the motor indudtry, steel, mining and shipping - and now its all gone to countries with a more progressive attitide to industrial evolution.
Shit happens unfortunately but you can't do what the Miners did especially with a Prime Minister like we had at the time.
Embrace change, rejoice in the challenge.

Some may have been unprofitable but pits do not always remain as such. This article makes interesting reading.

He made the point in the Commons on the 25th anniversary of the start of the miners’ strike in March. He told MPs that Britain would have been better off if the Tories had not closed the pits and, instead, used UK coal supplies.
'The legacy is we’re now relying on countries we don’t trust to supply our energy,” Dennis said. “Privatisation means energy companies are often not even owned by people in Britain. We should have used the energy underneath our feet and saved our North Sea oil for a rainy day.'
Dennis feels common sense was pushed aside in the frenetic push to crush the unions.
'In mining you are battling against Mother Nature. Sometimes you come across a white face caused by a collapse in the strata and a pit would become uneconomic. But that can change. A pit may have a bad year, then find a new seam and have 30 more good years. Also, when the closures began, we had already developed and opened a clean coal plant. But when you are involved in revenge, when you are determined to do better than Ted Heath and tame the miners, rationalisation and reason go out of the window.'
Besides which closing the pits has scored the UK an almighty own goal. As I posted earlier in the thread as a result of the impending energy crisis we are now at risk of being held to ransom by Poland and other countrieswho are supplying us.
Time to look to the future and greener methods of electricity production, rather than carbon based fuels, for the sake of the planet
I totally agree. Heard of clean coal technology? If costs for carbon storage and sequestration can be brought down it's an ideal solution.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by flower411
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
@Bluefish - Noone is saying that the miners and the unions were whiter than white but it all certainly did not go down in the way the media portrayed it. No conspiracy theories either, just facts especially in terms of what MI5 had a hand in and in terms of the provocation and heavyhandedness from the police.
@Kentswingers - I don't quite get how this friend of yours can laugh his head off so much at some of the opinions you have relayed to him today The contents of his books are clearly not as "impartial" as you make them out to be. And btw my opinions have nothing to do with Thatcher and the Tories, why do people always assume that, I have my own mind and am not influenced by any political bias.

Yes and I, have stuck to the facts also dunno

Thing is blue no-one as far as I can recall has questioned your facts...you only seem to accept that there was one side to the story as does Ken...Those of us who supported the miners have had to be more critical of our view because of the failure of the strike ,it still looks as if those of you who opposed them have made no attempt to re-evaluate your view or to accept that both sides made 'mistakes' (for want of a better word)
I am a human, with all the same compassion's you have, I also have many sympathies with the individuals and families involved. I also fully understand that mistakes were made by both sides. But that still does not change how I view what I see, just as you view things from your angle

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.
So do you know which opinions and the specifics of his objections or not?
No.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't have similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Jeezus H Christ if you really think that then there is not a hope that we would have a minimum wage in this country, there would be no such thing as the Working Time Directive etc. We'd be back to sending our kids up chimneys, cleaning the soot from our imported coal!

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs
:thumbup:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
I am a human, with all the same compassion's you have, I also have many sympathies with the individuals and families involved. I also fully understand that mistakes were made by both sides. But that still does not change how I view what I see, just as you view things from your angle

You are dealing with people here who have the same mentality that Scargill and other union big wigs have.
It is always the fault of the greedy employer, and the oh so poor employee can do no wrong.
Check the salaries that the union big wigs get Blue, and then ask yourself who are the ones that actually suffer when strike action is called.
As it all started on page one............Scargill lost....the NUM were smashed.....union power is nowhere near the same as it once was........Thatcher defeated the most powerful and trouble making union ever.
That is so simple to understand. The whys and wherefores matter not here, plus Scargill has been booted out of the NUM.
Happy days in this household. lol

Those to me are honest facts of which anything else is really immaterial.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Jeezus H Christ if you really think that then there is not a hope that we would have a minimum wage in this country, there would be no such thing as the Working Time Directive etc. We'd be back to sending our kids up chimneys, cleaning the soot from our imported coal!
No need for kids to do that these days, gas should not soot up the chimney :giggle:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Jeezus H Christ if you really think that then there is not a hope that we would have a minimum wage in this country, there would be no such thing as the Working Time Directive etc. We'd be back to sending our kids up chimneys, cleaning the soot from our imported coal!
No need for kids to do that these days, gas should not soot up the chimney :giggle:
:lol2: True Blue but if you are old fashioned like me then it's a possibility lol. I have a coal fire and a chimney but I think my daughter is a bit too big to climb up it :lol2:

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
I am a human, with all the same compassion's you have, I also have many sympathies with the individuals and families involved. I also fully understand that mistakes were made by both sides. But that still does not change how I view what I see, just as you view things from your angle

You are dealing with people here who have the same mentality that Scargill and other union big wigs have.
It is always the fault of the greedy employer, and the oh so poor employee can do no wrong.
Check the salaries that the union big wigs get Blue, and then ask yourself who are the ones that actually suffer when strike action is called.
As it all started on page one............Scargill lost....the NUM were smashed.....union power is nowhere near the same as it once was........Thatcher defeated the most powerful and trouble making union ever.
That is so simple to understand. The whys and wherefores matter not here, plus Scargill has been booted out of the NUM.
Happy days in this household. lol

Those to me are honest facts of which anything else is really immaterial.
rolleyes

"Full employment!
Slave labour and schemes!"
"An unemployed workforce
The capitalist's dream!"
"But let's keep Britain working
Either way we must keep Britain working"
"Conventional weapons
To kill people nicely!"
"Nuclear weapons
To keep the peace!"
"But weapons definitely
Either way we must defend ourselves"
"Nationalism
With one big boss!"
"No, privatisation
With lots of little bosses!"
"But someone in control of course
Either way there must be someone giving orders"
A toast to democracy
The prison guard of this society
Sides in the voting game
Disappear into the same machine...
A toast!
To US bases and nuclear weapons
To stopping pickets, pulling down fences
To British troops in Northern Ireland
To the wonderful victory in the Falklands
To the plastic bullet and the riot police
To the UDM and the TUC
To isolating gays and to law and order
To richer bosses and poorer workers
To longer hours and less pay
To the courts (for those we get in the way)
To the beating of people who step out of line
To the use of troops to break a strike
To the expulsion of extremists
To political witch hunts
To repatriation and to benefit cuts
To peaceful settlements
And no strike agreements
To authority, to power, to governments
To the annual rise in the MP's wage
To vested interests, to privilege
To the party who wins the next election
By definition a victory to capitalism!
"Common Ground" Chumbawamba 1984

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs
I was a Navigator in the Merchant Navy and I thought it was great that the Union negotiated that for every day we had at sea we had a day in the UK (on full pay). Some years later when i had been made redundant and all the Company ships sold to foreign flag operators I wondered at the wisdom of negotiating such wonderful perks.
The problem is that the economy IS global - like it or not and we have to be globally competitive.
Yes, it would be nice to have the same job all our life and get steady and reliable increases but that is a fantasy world that will never be a reality because of the way our world works. In micro economics a company down the road that can be more efficient than you can cut its prices and give you problems - the same argument applies around the globe. Why do you think call centres are now predominantly in India - cost saving of course.
I am sorry Staggs but you have a puritanical and fantasy view of how life should be - but it just is not like that at all in the real world. We all have to accept that we will have jobs, do well, get sacked and have to start over leaner, meaner and more competitive. These are the natural laws of survival and unfortunately in this country we have believed for too long that we are owed something better. We are not owed anything and everything we do has to be hard earned and fought for.
As an aside - this very argument is being battled out now between Unite who wanted to maintain outdtated working practices which were effectively making BA non profitable since the arrival of the low cost operators. Unite will lose this battle and if they don't the demise of BA will be a humiliating day for this country. But really, the fact is that BA are no longer the worlds favourite airline - Ryanair is. Ryaniar run a tight ship, pay shit wages and have poor working conditions but they carry lots of people cos they can do it cheap. - ie economically competitive.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by s3xyl3xy

No need for kids to do that these days, gas should not soot up the chimney :giggle:

:lol2: True Blue but if you are old fashioned like me then it's a possibility lol. I have a coal fire and a chimney but I think my daughter is a bit too big to climb up it :lol2:
I grew up in a house with an open fire's, mainly fueled by logs. (Bloody miners were always on strike lol

) It is some thing I miss on winter evenings, but in years to come I intend to right this wrong

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.
So do you know which opinions and the specifics of his objections or not?
No.
I had suspected as much .....you wouldn't like to ask him would you ?

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009

No need for kids to do that these days, gas should not soot up the chimney :giggle:

:lol2: True Blue but if you are old fashioned like me then it's a possibility lol. I have a coal fire and a chimney but I think my daughter is a bit too big to climb up it :lol2:
I grew up in a house with an open fire's, mainly fueled by logs. (Bloody miners were always on strike lol

) It is some thing I miss on winter evenings, but in years to come I intend to right this wrong
:lol2: @miners on strike biggrin

You won't regret righting that wrong :D an open fire is heavenly and I cannot wait for winter!

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.
So do you know which opinions and the specifics of his objections or not?
No.
I had suspected as much .....you wouldn't like to ask him would you ?
I'd be interested to know the specifics too.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Really you need to be more specific ...which views ?? what aspect of them ??...I wont ask for the titles of the books...we don't want you indirectly naming someone

Been done to death Staggs, as you well know.
I would not have named the books.
So do you know which opinions and the specifics of his objections or not?
No.
I had suspected as much .....you wouldn't like to ask him would you ?
No

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs
I was a Navigator in the Merchant Navy and I thought it was great that the Union negotiated that for every day we had at sea we had a day in the UK (on full pay). Some years later when i had been made redundant and all the Company ships sold to foreign flag operators I wondered at the wisdom of negotiating such wonderful perks.
The problem is that the economy IS global - like it or not and we have to be globally competitive.
Yes, it would be nice to have the same job all our life and get steady and reliable increases but that is a fantasy world that will never be a reality because of the way our world works. In micro economics a company down the road that can be more efficient than you can cut its prices and give you problems - the same argument applies around the globe. Why do you think call centres are now predominantly in India - cost saving of course.
I am sorry Staggs but you have a puritanical and fantasy view of how life should be - but it just is not like that at all in the real world. We all have to accept that we will have jobs, do well, get sacked and have to start over leaner, meaner and more competitive. These are the natural laws of survival and unfortunately in this country we have believed for too long that we are owed something better. We are not owed anything and everything we do has to be hard earned and fought for.
As an aside - this very argument is being battled out now between Unite who wanted to maintain outdtated working practices which were effectively making BA non profitable since the arrival of the low cost operators. Unite will lose this battle and if they don't the demise of BA will be a humiliating day for this country. But really, the fact is that BA are no longer the worlds favourite airline - Ryanair is. Ryaniar run a tight ship, pay shit wages and have poor working conditions but they carry lots of people cos they can do it cheap. - ie economically competitive.
I think you will find that more and more companies are bringing their call centres back "in house" as it is not as economically viable as they thought. They are losing customers if they don't have a UK call centre and many who have brought them back to the UK now positively use the fact that they have as a marketing tool!

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs
I was a Navigator in the Merchant Navy and I thought it was great that the Union negotiated that for every day we had at sea we had a day in the UK (on full pay). Some years later when i had been made redundant and all the Company ships sold to foreign flag operators I wondered at the wisdom of negotiating such wonderful perks.
The problem is that the economy IS global - like it or not and we have to be globally competitive.
Yes, it would be nice to have the same job all our life and get steady and reliable increases but that is a fantasy world that will never be a reality because of the way our world works. In micro economics a company down the road that can be more efficient than you can cut its prices and give you problems - the same argument applies around the globe. Why do you think call centres are now predominantly in India - cost saving of course.
I am sorry Staggs but you have a puritanical and fantasy view of how life should be - but it just is not like that at all in the real world. We all have to accept that we will have jobs, do well, get sacked and have to start over leaner, meaner and more competitive. These are the natural laws of survival and unfortunately in this country we have believed for too long that we are owed something better. We are not owed anything and everything we do has to be hard earned and fought for.
As an aside - this very argument is being battled out now between Unite who wanted to maintain outdtated working practices which were effectively making BA non profitable since the arrival of the low cost operators. Unite will lose this battle and if they don't the demise of BA will be a humiliating day for this country. But really, the fact is that BA are no longer the worlds favourite airline - Ryanair is. Ryaniar run a tight ship, pay shit wages and have poor working conditions but they carry lots of people cos they can do it cheap. - ie economically competitive.
And you believe that the only way to compete is a constant erosion of pay and working conditions ?? where do we stop with this downward spiral ? we live in country where call centres are being moved back from India because they're cheaper to run over here,whilst I congratulate our Indian brothers for raising their standards to above ours I despair of the fact we have fallen so low, your attitude is one of the reasons why...you may know your place in the world and be content..I for one will not be content whilst the average working man in this and any other country continues to fall further and further behind .You have no need to be sorry my view is neither puritanical or a fantasy,the idea that there is a 'natural law' to an artificial man made order of things tells me one thing only ,you are beaten you are defeated by 'the man ' and have bought his lies hook line and sinker....we are, you're right, not owed anything, we have to earn and fight for whatever we get,the trades union movement has been fighting for and earning rights for the common man for hundreds of years and you're prepared to just throw them away without a word of complaint.....shame on you
Snap s3xy....crossed in posting lol

30 Aug 2010

Your merely clutching at very short straws Staggs, you usually do when your arguments are flawed.
It happens so many times when your views are based on an empty glass economics.
You are so predictable it really is laughable.
Just admit in this instance you were talking rubbish, your so called facts were proved to be of a childs thinking, go on ....nobody will think anything less of you......honest. wink

30 Aug 2010

Can people learn to do the quote thing pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese.

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
OK - If you can buy coal - for the sake of argument:
1) For £15 / tonne from Australia
2) For £12 / tonne from Poland
3) For £20 / tonne from UK
Where would you get your coal from?
Fact is coal could (and still can) be mined and shipped half way around the world cheaper than it could have been taken out of the UK mines because of outdated and uneconomic working practices.
So ---- Why keep an outdated and filthy industry that pollutes and contributes massively to Global Warming?
The UK was unprepared for the arrival of the global economy. The Unions fought to keep and enhance protectionist working practices whilst Japanese factories churned out motor vehicles with barely a human interaction and ships manned with "cheap" crews took all of the UK freight and inexpensive coal from overseas made our mines uneconomical to keep open.
Industrial evolution and global economics - not appreciating these issues is common amongst the socialist working class because of long standing beliefs that Britain is truly great. It was, not anymore though.

Same answer from me I`m afraid .......
It was my understanding that all of the competion was from countries that subsidised their mining industries because it made economic sense to support them rather than paying unemployment ..
As I stated ....I may be wrong but the fact that you`ve completely ignored any of the answers given after your last post, kinda suggests that you have no argument ..
Of course coal is cheaper from countries that support their essential industries through subsidies ....Dur !!
It`s the idiots who fail to see that subsidy is better than unemployment who lose out in the end .
I think you will find that we have all lost out.
We have no motor industry, no shipping industry and virtually all heavy industry (steel, shipbuilding etc) has gone.
I think you will find that Australia and Poland could (and still can) extract coal and ship it to the UK cheaper than it could be dug from our ground because of a number of facts including shallow seams and efficient working methods.
You are just deluded to think that the Unions have done any good at all for this country. They should have been smashed in the 1970's and we could have had a chance to maintain some industrial dignity instead of losing everything to countries who were eager to work and di9d not demand the same outdated conditions that were being demanded at the time here in the UK.
Who decimated the steel industry ?? the unions didn't close one single foundry forge or rolling mill
Who decimated the mining industry??the unions didn't close one single pit
Who closed the car factories?the cotton mills?name me one single factory that has been closed by a union ??
Where is the dignity of working as slave labour for a pittance...if the unions fought for decent wages and conditions well done to them,it's a damn shame that the third world countries who sell us cheap goods made by children for penny a day wages don't similar organisations...If we can't compete perhaps we should try to raise their working classes to our level rather than insisting our working classes are lowered to theirs
I was a Navigator in the Merchant Navy and I thought it was great that the Union negotiated that for every day we had at sea we had a day in the UK (on full pay). Some years later when i had been made redundant and all the Company ships sold to foreign flag operators I wondered at the wisdom of negotiating such wonderful perks.
The problem is that the economy IS global - like it or not and we have to be globally competitive.
Yes, it would be nice to have the same job all our life and get steady and reliable increases but that is a fantasy world that will never be a reality because of the way our world works. In micro economics a company down the road that can be more efficient than you can cut its prices and give you problems - the same argument applies around the globe. Why do you think call centres are now predominantly in India - cost saving of course.
I am sorry Staggs but you have a puritanical and fantasy view of how life should be - but it just is not like that at all in the real world. We all have to accept that we will have jobs, do well, get sacked and have to start over leaner, meaner and more competitive. These are the natural laws of survival and unfortunately in this country we have believed for too long that we are owed something better. We are not owed anything and everything we do has to be hard earned and fought for.
As an aside - this very argument is being battled out now between Unite who wanted to maintain outdtated working practices which were effectively making BA non profitable since the arrival of the low cost operators. Unite will lose this battle and if they don't the demise of BA will be a humiliating day for this country. But really, the fact is that BA are no longer the worlds favourite airline - Ryanair is. Ryaniar run a tight ship, pay shit wages and have poor working conditions but they carry lots of people cos they can do it cheap. - ie economically competitive.
And you believe that the only way to compete is a constant erosion of pay and working conditions ?? where do we stop with this downward spiral ? we live in country where call centres are being moved back from India because they're cheaper to run over here,whilst I congratulate our Indian brothers for raising their standards to above ours I despair of the fact we have fallen so low, your attitude is one of the reasons why...you may know your place in the world and be content..I for one will not be content whilst the average working man in this and any other country continues to fall further and further behind .You have no need to be sorry my view is neither puritanical or a fantasy,the idea that there is a 'natural law' to an artificial man made order of things tells me one thing only ,you are beaten you are defeated by 'the man ' and have bought his lies hook line and sinker....we are, you're right, not owed anything, we have to earn and fight for whatever we get,the trades union movement has been fighting for and earning rights for the common man for hundreds of years and you're prepared to just throw them away without a word of complaint.....shame on you
Snap s3xy....crossed in posting lol

You say it far more eloquently than me though biggrin

30 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
snip......
"Full employment!
Slave labour and schemes!"
"An unemployed workforce
The capitalist's dream!"
"But let's keep Britain working
Either way we must keep Britain working"
"Conventional weapons
To kill people nicely!"
"Nuclear weapons
To keep the peace!"
"But weapons definitely
Either way we must defend ourselves"
"Nationalism
With one big boss!"
"No, privatisation
With lots of little bosses!"
"But someone in control of course
Either way there must be someone giving orders"
A toast to democracy
The prison guard of this society
Sides in the voting game
Disappear into the same machine...
A toast!
To US bases and nuclear weapons
To stopping pickets, pulling down fences
To British troops in Northern Ireland
To the wonderful victory in the Falklands
To the plastic bullet and the riot police
To the UDM and the TUC
To isolating gays and to law and order
To richer bosses and poorer workers
To longer hours and less pay
To the courts (for those we get in the way)
To the beating of people who step out of line
To the use of troops to break a strike
To the expulsion of extremists
To political witch hunts
To repatriation and to benefit cuts
To peaceful settlements
And no strike agreements
To authority, to power, to governments
To the annual rise in the MP's wage
To vested interests, to privilege
To the party who wins the next election
By definition a victory to capitalism!
"Common Ground" Chumbawamba 1984

:thumbup: totally forgotten that song and how fab it is!
perhaps this should be the theme song of current affairs!

:thumbup: I love Chumbawamba biggrin

30 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Your merely clutching at very short straws Staggs, you usually do when your arguments are flawed.
It happens so many times when your views are based on an empty glass economics.
You are so predictable it really is laughable.
Just admit in this instance you were talking rubbish, your so called facts were proved to be of a childs thinking, go on ....nobody will think anything less of you......honest.

Specifics? Which of Staggerlee's arguments are flawed and which of his views are based on glass economics?

30 Aug 2010

I just thought it was time we had a post without 15 quotes in it.

31 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Can people learn to do the quote thing pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese.

tell us how then

31 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Your merely clutching at very short straws Staggs, you usually do when your arguments are flawed.
It happens so many times when your views are based on an empty glass economics.
tell us about these "an empty glass economics"how they work/don't work what aspect of my argument is based on them ?
You are so predictable it really is laughable.
Whilst you're telling us about these "an empty glass" economics tell us what my response will be
Just admit in this instance you were talking rubbish, your so called facts were proved to be of a childs thinking, go on ....nobody will think anything less of you......honest.
the thing is as with all the other children I can never really learn unless you or someone like you tells me where I'm going wrong,if you'd like to enlighten, me rather than making weak posts such as this, pretending you have an answer to my points but for some mysterious reason aren't going to tell us what it/they may be,then I'd be more than happy to learn at your feet oh great sage