I think these people are doing the right thing in withdrawing their labour in search of better working conditions although I will be massively inconvenienced by their action.
What does everyone else think?
Join the most popular community of UK swingers now
Login
RMT Tube Strike
Quote by benrums0n
I think these people are doing the right thing in withdrawing their labour in search of better working conditions although I will be massively inconvenienced by their action.
What does everyone else think?
I for one do not like unions. They thankfully do not hold the power they once did, thanks to Maggs.
In this current climate maybe they should be thankful that they have a job whilst many others do not.
At leasts they held a " secret ballot ", unlike years ago when people like mad Arfur, just called them all out for nothing.
At the end of the day these people will lose two days money, they as always use their aims to blackmail the bosses by using the commuters as pawns.
Funny how say baggage handlers go on strike or threaten to, the first day of the summer holidays, it happens most years.
I have never belonged to a union and have been rejected for jobs in the print years ago, because of that fact.
At the end of the day the ones I feel sorry for are the people that will have to find other means of getting to work, or many will just take the two days off.
To me it always seems to be the same people that call a strike....underground workers, train drivers, printers and the miners. Funnily enough two of those now have about as much power as a boiled egg.
Sex God
Before you take that attitude kenty, can I ask if you know what they were actually offered this year by LU....
2 year deal..... 1% this year..... Inflation plus 0.5% next year, and you'll have the remind me of what the RPI runs at the moment... oh yeah -0.4%
the true rate of inflation minus mortgages at the moment is running at 3%.... so in effect you are asking them to take a pay cut!
can you see why they are not happy???
2 year deal..... 1% this year..... Inflation plus 0.5% next year, and you'll have the remind me of what the RPI runs at the moment... oh yeah -0.4%
the true rate of inflation minus mortgages at the moment is running at 3%.... so in effect you are asking them to take a pay cut!
can you see why they are not happy???
Sex God
i was in france a few years back abd the metro went on strike..le tournoi was on England v Brasil... paris could of gone to peices but...
and i love this
the employees ran the metro but refused to take the money..
got the full support of the Parisians and footy fans alike..how clever!
and i love this
the employees ran the metro but refused to take the money..
got the full support of the Parisians and footy fans alike..how clever!
Quote by fabio
Before you take that attitude kenty, can I ask if you know what they were actually offered this year by LU....
2 year deal..... 1% this year..... Inflation plus 0.5% next year, and you'll have the remind me of what the RPI runs at the moment... oh yeah -0.4%
the true rate of inflation minus mortgages at the moment is running at 3%.... so in effect you are asking them to take a pay cut!
can you see why they are not happy???
Ello Fabs.
I presume that most employees have a contract of employment?
Now in all of mine it usually say's something like.... after each twelve months you will get a pay review. It does not say you definatly will get one, just a review.
I do not know what it says in a train drivers contract, but I bet any pay rise is NOT guaranteed.
I bet most people would love any sort of pay rise at the moment but....most are just happy to still have their jobs.
I would love a pay rise but my business just simply cannot afford one at the moment. If a member of staff took humbridge with thet then I would suggest they looked for further employment.
IF the money is not there, it is not there. Holding the general public to ransom is the only tool they can use, and use it very well they do too.
Sex God
building trade here .. not moaning times are tough for all of us at the moment but
im currently working at around 1990 prices ... 50 percent down on last year to try and secure what little work there is out there..
times are hard for many of us .. ive no idea about unions never been in one nor would i want to be..
sometimes i see folk expect a pay rise??? that always amazes me.. in our trade in tough times you take pay cuts not rises.. i love the building game the folk that work in it but mainly the attitude ..
staggy
im currently working at around 1990 prices ... 50 percent down on last year to try and secure what little work there is out there..
times are hard for many of us .. ive no idea about unions never been in one nor would i want to be..
sometimes i see folk expect a pay rise??? that always amazes me.. in our trade in tough times you take pay cuts not rises.. i love the building game the folk that work in it but mainly the attitude ..
staggy
Did they learn nothing from the miners and print unions?
As I cannot hold the public to ransom, I will just have too see if next year can bring me a pay rise.
But seeing as profits are shit, and times are tough, I doubt I will get a rise, probably a cut in what I get this year.
They see the public as puppets for them to treat as shite, as soon as they don't like something.
Sorry but if they are getting any kind of pay rise this year, they should count themselves f***ing lucky.
As I cannot hold the public to ransom, I will just have too see if next year can bring me a pay rise.
But seeing as profits are shit, and times are tough, I doubt I will get a rise, probably a cut in what I get this year.
They see the public as puppets for them to treat as shite, as soon as they don't like something.
Sorry but if they are getting any kind of pay rise this year, they should count themselves f***ing lucky.
Quote by browning
I read in the london standard that a deal was done but the RMT wanted 2 sacked members re instated, 1 sacked for theft, the other for a saftey mis conduct.
Sorry for quoting you again...........
But if this is true they have lost any support I could have had for them. Both gross misconduct and deserve the sack
Dave_Notts
If that is true it would not suprise me at all.
I have seen this kind of thing many times in the past with unions. One member is sacked for a sackable offence, and then they all threaten to strike over it.
Well thankfully those same unions no longer have that kind of power. Thankfully a secret ballot is now used before any strike action can go ahead. Without that no doubt strikes would be what they were like in years gone by.
The drivers ain't on a bad screw money wise, and yes we would all love a nice pay rise every year but....the economy dictates differently at the moment.
IF these people are not happy with their money or their working conditions, then piss off and find a job that suits their purpose better. I bet they can't/won't though.
I have seen this kind of thing many times in the past with unions. One member is sacked for a sackable offence, and then they all threaten to strike over it.
Well thankfully those same unions no longer have that kind of power. Thankfully a secret ballot is now used before any strike action can go ahead. Without that no doubt strikes would be what they were like in years gone by.
The drivers ain't on a bad screw money wise, and yes we would all love a nice pay rise every year but....the economy dictates differently at the moment.
IF these people are not happy with their money or their working conditions, then piss off and find a job that suits their purpose better. I bet they can't/won't though.
All this legal ballot stuff, and other laws, works both ways. The unions now use the law as well, and very effectively.
Anyway, the blame is 50/50. The company involved could easily have used the law to effect a suspension of the strike.....just a letter from their legal people detailing objections and legality and the union would have had to end the action and re-ballot members.
Interestingly, both rmt and the underground had reached agreement on many points but couldn't agree on the two sacked members.
The vast majority of unions do not call strikes for every (or any) little reason...the ballots cost money to arrange and to have counted.
So, how many people have died/been injured and made sick by work this year ?
Deaths are 3000+, injuries at over 100,000 and the figure for industrial disease are higher......
So, I'll stay with MY union and others can follow their own route....Oh, and I have never been on strike....like the majority of union members.
Unions are VERY good at looking after their members interests in the H&S field...
Anyway, the blame is 50/50. The company involved could easily have used the law to effect a suspension of the strike.....just a letter from their legal people detailing objections and legality and the union would have had to end the action and re-ballot members.
Interestingly, both rmt and the underground had reached agreement on many points but couldn't agree on the two sacked members.
The vast majority of unions do not call strikes for every (or any) little reason...the ballots cost money to arrange and to have counted.
So, how many people have died/been injured and made sick by work this year ?
Deaths are 3000+, injuries at over 100,000 and the figure for industrial disease are higher......
So, I'll stay with MY union and others can follow their own route....Oh, and I have never been on strike....like the majority of union members.
Unions are VERY good at looking after their members interests in the H&S field...
Quote by JTS
All this legal ballot stuff, and other laws, works both ways. The unions now use the law as well, and very effectively.
Anyway, the blame is 50/50. The company involved could easily have used the law to effect a suspension of the strike.....just a letter from their legal people detailing objections and legality and the union would have had to end the action and re-ballot members.
Interestingly, both rmt and the underground had reached agreement on many points but couldn't agree on the two sacked members.
The vast majority of unions do not call strikes for every (or any) little reason...the ballots cost money to arrange and to have counted.
So, how many people have died/been injured and made sick by work this year ?
Deaths are 3000+, injuries at over 100,000 and the figure for industrial disease are higher......
So, I'll stay with MY union and others can follow their own route....Oh, and I have never been on strike....like the majority of union members.
Unions are VERY good at looking after their members interests in the H&S field...
How much are your subs now?
Sex God
Big mistake driving to work today, getting there was fine but coming back took over 2 hrs ... luckily, its a wfh day tomorrow.
But they also represented me at an industrial court case.
The award was not high, but returned all my subs for decades.
And the money is much less than employers pay to "their" trade unions. Mind you, theirs tell them interesting ways to avoid tax (etc).
Industrial deaths.
Serious injuries.
Industrial disease.
All going UP....and don't forget, we exported all the jobs abroad to "save" money.....which is now starting to bite back.
Have a look at the prosecutions file on the HSE website...AND that's with 400 LESS safety inspectors than the conservatives had....
Union workplaces are safer. Less accidents, and better working conditions.
Left to their own devices employers would have kids brushing chimneys again....
Quote by JTS
But they also represented me at an industrial court case.
The award was not high, but returned all my subs for decades.
And the money is much less than employers pay to "their" trade unions. Mind you, theirs tell them interesting ways to avoid tax (etc).
Industrial deaths.
Serious injuries.
Industrial disease.
All going UP....and don't forget, we exported all the jobs abroad to "save" money.....which is now starting to bite back.
Have a look at the prosecutions file on the HSE website...AND that's with 400 LESS safety inspectors than the conservatives had....
Union workplaces are safer. Less accidents, and better working conditions.
Left to their own devices employers would have kids brushing chimneys again....
where can i sign mine up :-)
Stupid isn't reserved for unions or their members. And the railways (under and over ground) have loads of problems other than strikes. One rail company has recently had many junior staff re-apply for their jobs. Another has laid-off many drivers. Bloody-mindedness is not the sole reserve of unions.
And in 2006 responsibility for rail safety was removed from HSE and became the province of The Office of Rail Regulation.
Assaults against rail staff have increased. Many people get loads of verbal abuse (prosecuted as assault) for things that are nothing to do with them....such as having to use buses to route past rail works (which are ongoing 24/7/365), but the work has to be done...and the rail companies are hardly going to schedule work to stop traffic during the week unless absolutely necessary (weekend travel is hardly a money spinner compared to weekday travel).
"Trackworkers: 2004 was a particularly bad year with eight fatalities (including four in a single accident at Tebay) and 124 major injuries, compared to the three fatalities and 83 major injuries in 2003. This is disappointing given the consistent high priority afforded to trackworker safety, albeit that some of the initiatives made little headway in 2004. This performance coincided with Network Rail re-organising its management and bringing maintenance in-house." - RSSB Annual Safety Performance Report, 2004, Workforce safety 5.1 Summary P154
And in 2006 responsibility for rail safety was removed from HSE and became the province of The Office of Rail Regulation.
Assaults against rail staff have increased. Many people get loads of verbal abuse (prosecuted as assault) for things that are nothing to do with them....such as having to use buses to route past rail works (which are ongoing 24/7/365), but the work has to be done...and the rail companies are hardly going to schedule work to stop traffic during the week unless absolutely necessary (weekend travel is hardly a money spinner compared to weekday travel).
Quote by Dave__Notts
Ah the good old HSE.
However did we manage without them in the 60's and the 70's?
Ermmmmm perhaps they were there but called something else
Dave_Notts
Yes.....interfering busy bodies I think.
I am suprised anyone over 40 survived to be honest.
Blimey when I was a kid the things we used to do like....play conklers and go to school in the snow. Now schools will shut at the drop of a snowflake.
There is a building site just up the road and on entry there is a board with about 5 zillion warning signs on it. By the time you have applied all those rules beofre entering the site, it is time to go home.
If you would care to read the Health and Safety at work (etc) act, you would find it to be a very bland piece of legislation. It never mentions goggles when playing conkers, nor does it say that ladders are illegal. Nothing about not selling cake at village fetes. All those are gross over-reactions by ignorant public servants who associate risk assessment with stopping all risk, whereas the various acts only require you to assess possible risk and manage it. Nothing about banning all risky activity at all. Many companies would love the act/s to be rescinded, but in many cases they are the same companies who do not apply the legislation anyway. Fortunately, at the moment (the health and safety laws are going to be made "voluntary" under a returning blue government and companies with less than 25 employees will not have to even read them) we have laws that enable prosecution of directors for serious accidents/deaths (also to be rescinded) which makes some people think harder.
You'll also note the illegal database of people who complained about H&S in the construction industry, recently revealed.....some very big companies paid into that effort...all to be prosecuted. It tells you a lot about their attitude to laws.
The HSE in the 60s' and 70s' ?
Obviously, as it is now, it wasn't then !
Then, instead of the laws we had now we had the factories act/s. Most of them became incorporated into the Health and Safety at Work (etc) Act 1974, where many still exist today.
It is IMPORTANT that you understand that many of the newspaper stories about 'elf 'n safety are frequently WRONG.
MAYBE if you peruse website you will see not only the problem, but that the HSE has:
a. Concerns about that problem
and:
b. Is doing something about it
and:
c. Has a sense of humour ?
When you have deaths from industrial disease, even with less industry, running at tens of thousands each year you may realise the problem.
And having the work done abroad just exports the deaths, injuries and disease to those countries.
Perhaps our largest export ?
You'll also note the illegal database of people who complained about H&S in the construction industry, recently revealed.....some very big companies paid into that effort...all to be prosecuted. It tells you a lot about their attitude to laws.
The HSE in the 60s' and 70s' ?
Obviously, as it is now, it wasn't then !
Then, instead of the laws we had now we had the factories act/s. Most of them became incorporated into the Health and Safety at Work (etc) Act 1974, where many still exist today.
It is IMPORTANT that you understand that many of the newspaper stories about 'elf 'n safety are frequently WRONG.
MAYBE if you peruse website you will see not only the problem, but that the HSE has:
a. Concerns about that problem
and:
b. Is doing something about it
and:
c. Has a sense of humour ?
When you have deaths from industrial disease, even with less industry, running at tens of thousands each year you may realise the problem.
And having the work done abroad just exports the deaths, injuries and disease to those countries.
Perhaps our largest export ?
Quote by kentswingers777
Ah the good old HSE.
However did we manage without them in the 60's and the 70's?
Ermmmmm perhaps they were there but called something else
Dave_Notts
Yes.....interfering busy bodies I think.
I am suprised anyone over 40 survived to be honest.
Blimey when I was a kid the things we used to do like....play conklers and go to school in the snow. Now schools will shut at the drop of a snowflake.
There is a building site just up the road and on entry there is a board with about 5 zillion warning signs on it. By the time you have applied all those rules beofre entering the site, it is time to go home.
Factory Inspectors is the answer you are looking for.
You'll find that H&S is there to stop the death and serious injury from occuring to the workers of this country.........and not irrelevant risk.
I agree with most of JTS' post except for saying it is public servants that are the cause of all the myths. It is usually local managers/owners in the private and public sector that implement something because they can't be bothered to do it. They then blame H&S law because they are too lazy. Instead of being honest and saying that they can't be bothered to do it right it is easier to say "It is because of H&S".
Now you claim H&S is a bad thing Kenty boy. There is one act and over 200 pieces of individual legislation that makes up H&S law. Within these individual pieces of legislation there are usually over 20 individual regulations. That gives you 4000+ bits of legislation.
Now give me ten pieces that you think we could do without or are ridiculous. Instead of trying to be a SH Gaunty, try back up what you say.
Dave_Notts
Quote by kentswingers777
There is a building site just up the road and on entry there is a board with about 5 zillion warning signs on it. By the time you have applied all those rules beofre entering the site, it is time to go home.
You will find that the majority of workers on those sites now have (HAVE to have) a CSCS ticket (Construction Skills Certification Scheme) without which, in many cases, they will NOT be allowed onto the site. The Major Constructors just do not want the problems that serious injury, or death, bring to a site. Nothing much to do with the guys (although they wouldn't actually want anyone dead) but the fact that a death will halt work on that site for several days. The contractors are responsible for the sub-contract workers....frequently ejecting those who will not work safely.
As for schools shutting in the snow....blame the parents.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Ah the good old HSE.
However did we manage without them in the 60's and the 70's?
Ermmmmm perhaps they were there but called something else
Dave_Notts
Yes.....interfering busy bodies I think.
I am suprised anyone over 40 survived to be honest.
Blimey when I was a kid the things we used to do like....play conklers and go to school in the snow. Now schools will shut at the drop of a snowflake.
There is a building site just up the road and on entry there is a board with about 5 zillion warning signs on it. By the time you have applied all those rules beofre entering the site, it is time to go home.
Factory Inspectors is the answer you are looking for.
You'll find that H&S is there to stop the death and serious injury from occuring to the workers of this country.........and not irrelevant risk.
I agree with most of JTS' post except for saying it is public servants that are the cause of all the myths. It is usually local managers/owners in the private and public sector that implement something because they can't be bothered to do it. They then blame H&S law because they are too lazy. Instead of being honest and saying that they can't be bothered to do it right it is easier to say "It is because of H&S".
Now you claim H&S is a bad thing Kenty boy. There is one act and over 200 pieces of individual legislation that makes up H&S law. Within these individual pieces of legislation there are usually over 20 individual regulations. That gives you 4000+ bits of legislation.
Now give me ten pieces that you think we could do without or are ridiculous. Instead of trying to be a SH Gaunty, try back up what you say.
Dave_Notts
No I never said all of it Davey boy. :wink:
Obviously a lot of it is needed as there are idiot employees who would put their lives and others on the line, through dangerous acts.
Also there are bad employers who make employees say run machinery that is not safe to do so.
So there is a lot of legislation which is needed, and rightly so but......Let me tell you of one instance.
We had an electrician come to my place of business to install a three phase thingy. He was telling me that as an electrician of over 30 years experience, he had to go on a course. Now this course cost him a grand give or take, and was for three days.
Three days money he lost as he is self employed, and he said that what this guy was teaching him, he had been doing for years but....without the certificate he could not legally work. Health and Safety directive 3b section 27/446. :wink:
This he said was the third time in four years he has had to do this, which as an experienced electrician, was a total waste of time.
Lets be honest whilst we need H and S , there is a lot of it that is just pure total common sense. Not everyone is an idiot.
Quote by kentswingers777
Ah the good old HSE.
However did we manage without them in the 60's and the 70's?
Ermmmmm perhaps they were there but called something else
Dave_Notts
Yes.....interfering busy bodies I think.
I am suprised anyone over 40 survived to be honest.
Blimey when I was a kid the things we used to do like....play conklers and go to school in the snow. Now schools will shut at the drop of a snowflake.
There is a building site just up the road and on entry there is a board with about 5 zillion warning signs on it. By the time you have applied all those rules beofre entering the site, it is time to go home.
Factory Inspectors is the answer you are looking for.
You'll find that H&S is there to stop the death and serious injury from occuring to the workers of this country.........and not irrelevant risk.
I agree with most of JTS' post except for saying it is public servants that are the cause of all the myths. It is usually local managers/owners in the private and public sector that implement something because they can't be bothered to do it. They then blame H&S law because they are too lazy. Instead of being honest and saying that they can't be bothered to do it right it is easier to say "It is because of H&S".
Now you claim H&S is a bad thing Kenty boy. There is one act and over 200 pieces of individual legislation that makes up H&S law. Within these individual pieces of legislation there are usually over 20 individual regulations. That gives you 4000+ bits of legislation.
Now give me ten pieces that you think we could do without or are ridiculous. Instead of trying to be a SH Gaunty, try back up what you say.
Dave_Notts
No I never said all of it Davey boy. :wink:
Obviously a lot of it is needed as there are idiot employees who would put their lives and others on the line, through dangerous acts.
Also there are bad employers who make employees say run machinery that is not safe to do so.
So there is a lot of legislation which is needed, and rightly so but......Let me tell you of one instance.
We had an electrician come to my place of business to install a three phase thingy. He was telling me that as an electrician of over 30 years experience, he had to go on a course. Now this course cost him a grand give or take, and was for three days.
Three days money he lost as he is self employed, and he said that what this guy was teaching him, he had been doing for years but....without the certificate he could not legally work. Health and Safety directive 3b section 27/446. :wink:
This he said was the third time in four years he has had to do this, which as an experienced electrician, was a total waste of time.
Lets be honest whilst we need H and S , there is a lot of it that is just pure total common sense. Not everyone is an idiot.
You are so right. H&S is common sense and your post goes to show that it isn't that common.
The example you have used. What legislation are you on about? This electrician is probably part of a professional body so he can put it on the side of his van. More than likely NICEIC or ECA. His institution sets their professional competancy by their members attending inhouse courses where they are examined and deemed worthy to be allowed to still be a member of that professional institution.
So the example you have used has no bearing on actual H&S law but a private business setting its own standards.
Shall we try another example of ludricous H&S law?
Dave_Notts
How about you reading the rebuttals from the horses mouth ?
When you have read the opening page, click on the year links and read the rest:
Have a click through the cases in the link below.
A number of companies have signed the pledge to help us promote a common sense approach to health and safety, including the Association of British Insurers.
When you have read the opening page, click on the year links and read the rest:
"Informed common sense is the key. This has to underlie all assessments of health and safety (that is all a risk assessment is). Everyone in the workplace needs to think about what they are doing and what might go wrong. A good risk assessment will help avoid injuries and ill health, which can not only ruin lives, but can also increase costs to business through lost output, compensation claims and higher insurance premiums.
Have a click through the cases in the link below.
