Sorry Mids, you're free to continue your post on the search for the new Manchester United manager, I'll continue my gripe here.
We have become a celebrity driven culture (even MrsG checks out OK on a daily basis, I have know idea why), my concern being that our younger generations end up with inappropriate role models to look up to.
Starting with football, a huge sport throughout the world with millions of kids following their favourite players. I'll acknowledge that there are good guys in the sport and always has been (Lineker and Brooking being my generation) but my perception is that they are out numbered by the cheats and general idiots. I don't follow football probably watch only one or two matches on the tv a year, if that, so most of my perceptions come from the BBC news and with bad news stories making good news every time they will always focus on the bites, trips, fights and general arguments with the refs. But the kids watching the games they end up see this as acceptable behaviour. The teacher , responsible adult asks them to do something they don't want to do, shout and scream at them, it works for their favourite stars.
I don't see other celebrities such as the pop and movie stars having such an influence on kids perhaps because on the whole you only see them in their role as a pop or movie star and perhaps the more extreme stars are likely to appeal to an older generation that should have a little more reasoning capabilities. I can't really see a 7 year old idolising Keith Moon wanting to grow up trashing hotels and driving cars into swimming pools and I would hope the 20 something fans just looked on his exploits with a rye smile.
Perhaps the issues with pop and movie stars is the perception of getting rich quick with little effort. Little Johnny can sing and Annie can act, why struggle to get the grades at school when they have their careers all mapped out, just have to appear on The Voice, Pop Idol or any of the numerous talent shows on the TV and they are made.
Lessons on working hard and treating people with respect etc seem to be going out the window.
. . . . . God what a grumpy old git I sound like
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Role models in modern society
there are plenty of good role models in modern football.....Take David Beckham...clean living....hard working...and I know he has enough....but has just given his seasons salary to charity. There are plenty more. As in each format there are good and bad role models and its just that the bad ones are the ones that tend to hit the headlines !!
As for pop music....just as many very bad role models there. Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse both spring straight to mind. TV stars...well best not mention corrie at the moment...but how about Kerry Katona....not someone to look up to !!
The main problem is generally with the media and our frenzy to read about celeb gossip. If we didn't read all the sleazy, dollops of nothing, they wouldn't print it. If we were more interested in reading about, the work of a soldier trying his best against the odds in Afghanistan, maybe we would have better role models. If we were only more interested in the pioneering work some doctors do, maybe we would have better role models. The responsibility is with us !!!
As for pop music....just as many very bad role models there. Pete Doherty and Amy Winehouse both spring straight to mind. TV stars...well best not mention corrie at the moment...but how about Kerry Katona....not someone to look up to !!
The main problem is generally with the media and our frenzy to read about celeb gossip. If we didn't read all the sleazy, dollops of nothing, they wouldn't print it. If we were more interested in reading about, the work of a soldier trying his best against the odds in Afghanistan, maybe we would have better role models. If we were only more interested in the pioneering work some doctors do, maybe we would have better role models. The responsibility is with us !!!
Sex God
A lot of kid's go off the rails at some point, most get back on track.
I don't think parents are to blame all of the time.
Would we be classed as good role models
........ married for 28 years, but have
the occasional mess around with other guy's/ladies.
Put that question to the general public and I think the answer would be a resounding
NO!
I don't think parents are to blame all of the time.
Would we be classed as good role models
........ married for 28 years, but havethe occasional mess around with other guy's/ladies.
Put that question to the general public and I think the answer would be a resounding
NO!
Footballers in general even the bad ones are not so bad as some other "celebrities"
Amy Whinehouse, Bob Marley .... death by drug abuse.
Paedophiles popping out the TV dressing rooms like it's a Wendy House.
Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll being a seemingly requiste for rock or Punk Band.
The actress this week who said to the Police "Do you know who I am" like that matters.
Connection with organised crime for some actors.
Michael Jackson .... I could write a whole book about his negative influence on kids.
Yes the media machine is partly to blame, parents very much to blame but parents too are dustbins for as much reality crap as they can fit in.
Sasha watches so much crap reality it scares me, Big Brother, The Kardasians, 16 and Pregnant, Made in Chelsea, Peter (I married a woman with big plastic tits so now I am a celebrity) Andre and a whole host of other meaningless crap, she thinks going on Big Brother and getting kicked out after two weeks of showing yourself as mentaly unstable is a good thing and makes you a celebrity to be admired.
I agree with Flower and DeanCannock on this one, I think footballers are saints compared with other celebrities out there. A few drink drivers, a few having affairs, a few thugs on the pitch, even the odd accusation that often turns out to be a lie or a change of heart after going to a private party in a hotel room. (not condoning any of these but a much smaller % of all of that than there are in other celebrity circles).
The football clubs themselves might support a player but I have never heard of one covering for a player to make like something never happened and there was no case to answer.
Unlike the Priesthood for example that we would like to think of as role models or people working for the BBC.
Amy Whinehouse, Bob Marley .... death by drug abuse.
Paedophiles popping out the TV dressing rooms like it's a Wendy House.
Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll being a seemingly requiste for rock or Punk Band.
The actress this week who said to the Police "Do you know who I am" like that matters.
Connection with organised crime for some actors.
Michael Jackson .... I could write a whole book about his negative influence on kids.
Yes the media machine is partly to blame, parents very much to blame but parents too are dustbins for as much reality crap as they can fit in.
Sasha watches so much crap reality it scares me, Big Brother, The Kardasians, 16 and Pregnant, Made in Chelsea, Peter (I married a woman with big plastic tits so now I am a celebrity) Andre and a whole host of other meaningless crap, she thinks going on Big Brother and getting kicked out after two weeks of showing yourself as mentaly unstable is a good thing and makes you a celebrity to be admired.
I agree with Flower and DeanCannock on this one, I think footballers are saints compared with other celebrities out there. A few drink drivers, a few having affairs, a few thugs on the pitch, even the odd accusation that often turns out to be a lie or a change of heart after going to a private party in a hotel room. (not condoning any of these but a much smaller % of all of that than there are in other celebrity circles).
The football clubs themselves might support a player but I have never heard of one covering for a player to make like something never happened and there was no case to answer.
Unlike the Priesthood for example that we would like to think of as role models or people working for the BBC.
Quote by dean
and I know he has enough....but has just given his seasons salary to charity
Couldn't be anything to do with the otherwise huge tax bill both he and the Parisien FC he was playing for would face, could it?
'Course not. He's all heart, isn't he.... :lol2:
Still, I guess he was 'consoled' enough with the suite of rooms he was provided with in one of Paris' most exclusive hotels close to the Prime Minister's residence. 2000m2 if I recall correctly.
Now, forgive me for being a tad cynical, but can someone explain the difference to me between his avoidance of tax in France and Costa Coffee (or whoever) in UK?
One bunch seems to have been castigated almost to oblivion by the Brits whereas the other is being hailed as some sort of hero...
And oh, BTW Dean, it wasn't his 'seasons salaray' as such, if he were to pay tax in France, it would be his worldwide income under scrutiny - including all his worldwide advertising revenues and the earnings from the States.
Giving him use of a posh hotel suite was deffo tax avoidance with spin put on it to show him to be a charitable kinda guy.
GnV oh so cynical :sad: .
Celebrities cannot do right for doing wrong sometimes, if they give to charity the are attention seeking and "they can afford it", if they don't give to charity they are greedy skinflints, if they say they are giving to charity they are showing off and doing it to look good, if they do it in secret they are skinflints who don't give to charity.
I have no time for many so called celebrities who will do anything for the status label but some, like people from all walks of life are good people.
How can it be tax avoidance, tax avoidance in the nasty sense of the word avoidance is finding loopholes or illegaly hiding income in order to keep it for yourself.
If you give the money to charity instead of the taxman where is the gain ? popularity, he is a footballer some will love him for his skill, some will hate him for his salary no matter what he does.
You have the right to give some of your income to charity and gain some tax relief on it, that has always been the way here, many rich people choose to put some of their earnings to good use, the most generous I know of being Mr Gates who gives Billions to good causes.
And I think your picking for picking sake, Dean is right he gave a seasons salary, his income from other things such as sponsorship, marketing etc is not part of his seasons salary it is part of his income albeit there is a lot of it.
I don't know the details of his Paris visit, but I do know that if a Company send someone somewhere for work reasons, courses, medicals promotional work etc they pay for accommodation and travel, the level of accommodation is generally that level of luxury to which you are accostomed to and DB lives in luxury at home, they were hardly going to stick him in some BnB were they, and they have to consider his security and his privacy something many cheaper hotels cannot provide adequately.
So what are the accusations being made against him in France about tax avoidance and who is making those allegations, is he under investigation ? I feel you must know something I don't, you surely cannot be comparing a tax beneficial donation to charity the same as Costa not paying any taxes at all and those gains going into their own bank account.
I know big businesses use charity donations to market themselves and gain the same tax benefits so even if he is doing it for personal popularity, is that so bad, this week Pedigree are donating £1million to animal charities based on buying "special packs" of their products, it is the norm.
Celebrities cannot do right for doing wrong sometimes, if they give to charity the are attention seeking and "they can afford it", if they don't give to charity they are greedy skinflints, if they say they are giving to charity they are showing off and doing it to look good, if they do it in secret they are skinflints who don't give to charity.
I have no time for many so called celebrities who will do anything for the status label but some, like people from all walks of life are good people.
How can it be tax avoidance, tax avoidance in the nasty sense of the word avoidance is finding loopholes or illegaly hiding income in order to keep it for yourself.
If you give the money to charity instead of the taxman where is the gain ? popularity, he is a footballer some will love him for his skill, some will hate him for his salary no matter what he does.
You have the right to give some of your income to charity and gain some tax relief on it, that has always been the way here, many rich people choose to put some of their earnings to good use, the most generous I know of being Mr Gates who gives Billions to good causes.
And I think your picking for picking sake, Dean is right he gave a seasons salary, his income from other things such as sponsorship, marketing etc is not part of his seasons salary it is part of his income albeit there is a lot of it.
I don't know the details of his Paris visit, but I do know that if a Company send someone somewhere for work reasons, courses, medicals promotional work etc they pay for accommodation and travel, the level of accommodation is generally that level of luxury to which you are accostomed to and DB lives in luxury at home, they were hardly going to stick him in some BnB were they, and they have to consider his security and his privacy something many cheaper hotels cannot provide adequately.
So what are the accusations being made against him in France about tax avoidance and who is making those allegations, is he under investigation ? I feel you must know something I don't, you surely cannot be comparing a tax beneficial donation to charity the same as Costa not paying any taxes at all and those gains going into their own bank account.
I know big businesses use charity donations to market themselves and gain the same tax benefits so even if he is doing it for personal popularity, is that so bad, this week Pedigree are donating £1million to animal charities based on buying "special packs" of their products, it is the norm.
Not all of a charitable donation is tax free.
In many cases, there is a cap and most 'ordinary' people - the 'little' people if you like - pay charitable donations out of their taxed Income.
And most 'little' people pay quietly to charity and not in a way to maximise their popularity.
Jed, I know nothing more than I have outlined.
I appreciate your view on being billeted out when away on the business of your employer but the team he was playing for was in Paris! Most everyone else has to pay for their accommodation out of their after tax salary. In this case, it was a device to avoid punitive rates of tax for which the French are well known. Plain and simple.
In many cases, there is a cap and most 'ordinary' people - the 'little' people if you like - pay charitable donations out of their taxed Income.
And most 'little' people pay quietly to charity and not in a way to maximise their popularity.
Jed, I know nothing more than I have outlined.
I appreciate your view on being billeted out when away on the business of your employer but the team he was playing for was in Paris! Most everyone else has to pay for their accommodation out of their after tax salary. In this case, it was a device to avoid punitive rates of tax for which the French are well known. Plain and simple.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Footballers in general even the bad ones are not so bad as some other "celebrities"
Amy Whinehouse, Bob Marley .... death by drug abuse.
Paedophiles popping out the TV dressing rooms like it's a Wendy House.
Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll being a seemingly requiste for rock or Punk Band.
The actress this week who said to the Police "Do you know who I am" like that matters.
Connection with organised crime for some actors.
Michael Jackson .... I could write a whole book about his negative influence on kids.
Yes the media machine is partly to blame, parents very much to blame but parents too are dustbins for as much reality crap as they can fit in.
Sasha watches so much crap reality it scares me, Big Brother, The Kardasians, 16 and Pregnant, Made in Chelsea, Peter (I married a woman with big plastic tits so now I am a celebrity) Andre and a whole host of other meaningless crap, she thinks going on Big Brother and getting kicked out after two weeks of showing yourself as mentaly unstable is a good thing and makes you a celebrity to be admired.
I agree with Flower and DeanCannock on this one, I think footballers are saints compared with other celebrities out there. A few drink drivers, a few having affairs, a few thugs on the pitch, even the odd accusation that often turns out to be a lie or a change of heart after going to a private party in a hotel room. (not condoning any of these but a much smaller % of all of that than there are in other celebrity circles).
The football clubs themselves might support a player but I have never heard of one covering for a player to make like something never happened and there was no case to answer.
Unlike the Priesthood for example that we would like to think of as role models or people working for the BBC.
would it be much more acceptable for celebs to bite each other or kick other celebs to point of braking their legs
and as for mentally unstable that joey Barton is a level headed guy don't you think :huh:
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
Footballers in general even the bad ones are not so bad as some other "celebrities"
Amy Whinehouse, Bob Marley .... death by drug abuse.
You might find that Cancer was the cause of his death....
Sex God
Quote by Steve
Footballers in general even the bad ones are not so bad as some other "celebrities"
Amy Whinehouse, Bob Marley .... death by drug abuse.
You might find that Cancer was the cause of his death....
and Amy whinehouse died of alcohol poisoning :silly:
don't you hate it when facts get it the way of a good debate
:rotflmao: Quote by Bambi
A lot of kid's go off the rails at some point, most get back on track.
I don't think parents are to blame all of the time.
Would we be classed as good role models
the occasional mess around with other guy's/ladies.
Put that question to the general public and I think the answer would be a resounding
NO!
But then public are wrong as they are only interested in the external celebrity driven view of the world. You/we don't meet that in a few areas which are wholey private, what society should be looking at is the values of committment (28yrs for yourselfs, 20+ for us) honesty, hard working and a requirement to treat others as we want to be treated ourselves.
The publics perceptions have been driven by years of media bombardment of celebrity culture with public wanting to read about every character flaw, castagate the fallen but not willing to look at their own morals and values.
So you dabble in practices that most of the public would disagree in, that same public who thing it is acceptable to buy pirate DVD's, knock off goods at the local car boot sale/pub, acceptable to play around without you partners knowledge as long as you don't get caught, no tax/insurance/driving licence because you can get away with it.
Back to your opening line, parents aren't always to blame but they are the start. The formative years of any child will be in the company of their parent(s) or other adult and it is their responsibility to ensure the child develops an understanding of what is right and wrong. Young children aren't exposed to the media coverage of the Amy Whitehouses etc but will often by exposed to football and will pick up on the values they see demostrated in the sport they love. Acceptable to confront and argue with the ref, acceptable to stage a dive to get a penalty, free kick etc.
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
Quote by MidsCouple24
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
Would work for politicians too, by all accounts
Quote by MidsCouple24
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
There's 37 footballers in the English/Scottish Divisions for you to be getting on with........and I bet that doesn't even scratch the surface.
Sex God
Quote by MidsCouple24
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
google would have been better used to get ya facts right on winehouse and Marley really
Quote by Max777
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
There's 37 footballers in the English/Scottish Divisions for you to be getting on with........and I bet that doesn't even scratch the surface.
looked at that and I must say 37 is a very low number as this seems to spread over last 40/50 years. George best is in there and so that must have been the 70's....the Tony Adams drink driving I think was very early 80's....37 over 40 or more years....less than one a year...very low indeed.
Sex God
It would be great if a lot of parents could be role models and afford for at least one of them to stay at home and parent their children rather than have to pay to have surrogates do it for them, It does seems somehow wrong too me that a lot of children spend more time with other people in any weekday 24 hour period than their parents. It seems that its acceptable in this throw away society to throw away your kids for the best part of their waking day.
Quote by Lost
It would be great if a lot of parents could be role models and afford for at least one of them to stay at home and parent their children rather than have to pay to have surrogates do it for them, It does seems somehow wrong too me that a lot of children spend more time with other people in any weekday 24 hour period than their parents. It seems that its acceptable in this throw away society to throw away your kids for the best part of their waking day.
Not everyone has that luxury Lost, we didn't, it took both wages to stay in our house, however, we were lucky in that the child minder was a few doors down from us and had kids of a similar age and had the same ethos as us bringing them up. Ours have grown up honest and confident and will even work hard if you can prize them off the latest facebook game.
Sex God
Quote by Gerty35
It would be great if a lot of parents could be role models and afford for at least one of them to stay at home and parent their children rather than have to pay to have surrogates do it for them, It does seems somehow wrong too me that a lot of children spend more time with other people in any weekday 24 hour period than their parents. It seems that its acceptable in this throw away society to throw away your kids for the best part of their waking day.
Not everyone has that luxury Lost, we didn't, it took both wages to stay in our house, however, we were lucky in that the child minder was a few doors down from us and had kids of a similar age and had the same ethos as us bringing them up. Ours have grown up honest and confident and will even work hard if you can prize them off the latest facebook game.
:thumbup:
Hey I am totally with you and agree on what you're saying I just think its a shame its got to the stage where there is no option for a working family.
Quote by deancannock
I tell you what LiznRob, I would be willing to work google and find non footballing celebrities that have been aggressive, caused GBH, caught taking drugs and other things that we should not see from role models if you will do the same and gather the list about footballers, to make it fair I will only target people in the music industry.
Let's see who can get the biggest list.
We could even categorise the behaviour, for example.
Murder
Drug Abuse
Violence towards another person off stage/pitch
Violence towards others on stage/pitch
Domestic Abuse
Affairs
Alcohol abuse
There's 37 footballers in the English/Scottish Divisions for you to be getting on with........and I bet that doesn't even scratch the surface.
looked at that and I must say 37 is a very low number as this seems to spread over last 40/50 years. George best is in there and so that must have been the 70's....the Tony Adams drink driving I think was very early 80's....37 over 40 or more years....less than one a year...very low indeed.
But as I said in my post, this barely scratches the surface. This is just a list that someone has compiled, not a definitive list.
And a good post it is too. I tried really hard to find a similar list for musicians, singers and band members but alas could not.
Interesting to see that 5 of the 37 committed the offences when they had retired from football (including the one convicted of running a brothel, importing pornography and counterfeiting "how to replace high football salaries when your career is over")
Sad to see that most of the crimes committed were for assault nd car crime (generally drink driving)
But quick look round the Popstars and the prevalent offences are Child molesting, assault and drug abuse.
I think when over the investigation into Jimmy Savilles actiities will make the list of 37 people look like world cup squad not a list of criminals, as I understand it more than 37 are already being investigated, and that is just scratching the surface. I hate to think what an investigation into Gary Glitters friends and acquaintances would unearth.
And scary when you think how many teenage fans (and younger) someone like Just Bieber has compared with say, John Terry, Ronaldo, Van Persie etc.
Interesting to see that 5 of the 37 committed the offences when they had retired from football (including the one convicted of running a brothel, importing pornography and counterfeiting "how to replace high football salaries when your career is over")
Sad to see that most of the crimes committed were for assault nd car crime (generally drink driving)
But quick look round the Popstars and the prevalent offences are Child molesting, assault and drug abuse.
I think when over the investigation into Jimmy Savilles actiities will make the list of 37 people look like world cup squad not a list of criminals, as I understand it more than 37 are already being investigated, and that is just scratching the surface. I hate to think what an investigation into Gary Glitters friends and acquaintances would unearth.
And scary when you think how many teenage fans (and younger) someone like Just Bieber has compared with say, John Terry, Ronaldo, Van Persie etc.
Sex God
I don't think you're talking about role models .. there are good and bad ones in all walks of life (and a bad model is just as useful in educating children as a good one) What is really being discussed is influence, I would suggest you look to the media not the worthless fuckwits celebrated by it
Sex God
It's OK to act out imagine yourself. if you want to, as an Elf or Dwarf or a wizard just as long as its limited to just a few hours or so a week . Hey why not if you need a little escapism.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I don't think you're talking about role models .. there are good and bad ones in all walks of life (and a bad model is just as useful in educating children as a good one) What is really being discussed is influence, I would suggest you look to the media not the worthless fuckwits celebrated by it
Thankyou Staggerlee, perhaps role models was the wrong definition. It doesn't matter what areas of society you look to there will always be the good and bad and the supposed celebrities don't do anything the general public don't get up to, just that our useless media thinks thats its newsworthy.
Influence, and I'm looking at how the "person" develops their own internal moral compass, starts young. Starts at home with the parent(s) and the stimuli that the kids are exposed to, be it sat in front of the TV, interacting with other kids/adults etc.
I keep knocking football as having an example to show kids what is right and wrong with regard to behavior and sportsmanship, note the kids will only see what goes on on the pitch and not the news stories covering sex, drink & R&R. Likewise the media stories on pop stars and celebrities probably don't register on most kids radar.
Perhaps the other change / influence over the last 20 years does go to the media and specifically the advertising media who don't appear to be too fussed on who and how they cell their products, projecting an image of behaviour that they hope will be picked up on to sell their product. Not sure how this argument helps me on the bad behaviour front but probably a lot to do with the early "sexulisation" of kids re clothing and make up.
. . . . & Lost . . . Wizards, Elves and Dwarves ? have you accidently posted here instead of a Lord of the Rings thread ?
