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Shame on Liverpool FC part 2

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Quote by MidsCouple24
Very true, perhaps his defence will remind the jury that we all lie at some time in our lives, this does not mean we lie all the time,''''

Quite. In my experience judges often have to remind jurors (who are as bigoted and prejudicial as the next man of course) of this vital point.
Quote by Ben_Minx
Quite. In my experience judges often have to remind jurors (who are as bigoted and prejudicial as the next man of course) of this vital point.

reely?
you must have a lot of experience ben to make a point that bold. rolleyes
or just an opinion dunno
Quote by starlightcouple

Quite. In my experience judges often have to remind jurors (who are as bigoted and prejudicial as the next man of course) of this vital point.

reely?
you must have a lot of experience ben to make a point that bold. rolleyes
or just an opinion dunno
Aye... but from which side of the dock, you might ask :lol2:
Quote by starlightcouple

Quite. In my experience judges often have to remind jurors (who are as bigoted and prejudicial as the next man of course) of this vital point.

reely?
you must have a lot of experience ben to make a point that bold. rolleyes
or just an opinion dunno
This is where we seem to differ. I assume other human beings have filled their lives with experience which leads me to value their opinions, unless of course they are evidently bigoted and ill informed.
Quote by Ben_Minx
This is where we seem to differ. I assume other human beings have filled their lives with experience which leads me to value their opinions, unless of course they are evidently bigoted and ill informed.

a very dangeruos game to play ben that assuming stuff. especially when you are deeling with the human race.
Why should anyone have to shake anyones hands?
If someone threatened to punch you would you shake thier hand?
If someone accuses you of something you feel you have not done would you shake their hand?
Suarez obviously changed his mind, he said to the club that he would before hand, but when it came to it he obviously decided he wouldn't be two faced and do something he didn't want to do. Its his choice, he feels wronged and im my opinion (having read the whole of the 160 odd pages of FA "evidence"), had the whole thing just been handed to the Police by the FA in the first place, he would have been found not guilty - The Police and CPS work based on "beyond reasonable doubt" as opposed to "a balance of probability" to convict people, and lets face it "a balance of probability" just means i believe his story slightly more then yours, and has nothing to do with evidence.
There was no video evidence of his "alleged" multiple racial remarks, (strange considering it was such a big game live in many countries on many channels, using many cameras) and yet John Terry is caught by two different camera's blatenty using racial terminology. Lets not forget that seconds before they were both involved in a takle, and the camera's seemed to be following them and their argument. Had this gone to the police it would have been Suarez's word against Evra's, and given that Evra started the conversation in spanish, and that Suarez responded in spanish, the Police would have had to use the translation in Uraguayan spanish, which has no direct translation and so therefore no crime was commited. In fact its pretty well know that in those countries racism is not even thought about because there was never really a slave trade there, racism is at its most rampent in the US, UK and europe who were the most active in slavery.
A very good, seemingly unbiased website went through all the evidence and published a very good, readable breakdown explaining why they think the FA were wrong, I highly recomend people have a read and see if it changes opinions, it certainly helped re-enforce mine, even though it explains arguments against Suarez as well: -
The link you've provided doesn't work. Shame as I'd like to read it.
Quote by Max777
The link you've provided doesn't work. Shame as I'd like to read it.

Updated max777, dunno what happend, must have copied it wrong and missed a letter or something...
Quote by two-4-more
Why should anyone have to shake anyones hands?
If someone threatened to punch you would you shake thier hand?
If someone accuses you of something you feel you have not done would you shake their hand?
Suarez obviously changed his mind, he said to the club that he would before hand, but when it came to it he obviously decided he wouldn't be two faced and do something he didn't want to do. Its his choice, he feels wronged and im my opinion (having read the whole of the 160 odd pages of FA "evidence"), had the whole thing just been handed to the Police by the FA in the first place, he would have been found not guilty - The Police and CPS work based on "beyond reasonable doubt" as opposed to "a balance of probability" to convict people, and lets face it "a balance of probability" just means i believe his story slightly more then yours, and has nothing to do with evidence.
There was no video evidence of his "alleged" multiple racial remarks, (strange considering it was such a big game live in many countries on many channels, using many cameras) and yet John Terry is caught by two different camera's blatenty using racial terminology. Lets not forget that seconds before they were both involved in a takle, and the camera's seemed to be following them and their argument. Had this gone to the police it would have been Suarez's word against Evra's, and given that Evra started the conversation in spanish, and that Suarez responded in spanish, the Police would have had to use the translation in Uraguayan spanish, which has no direct translation and so therefore no crime was commited. In fact its pretty well know that in those countries racism is not even thought about because there was never really a slave trade there, racism is at its most rampent in the US, UK and europe who were the most active in slavery.
A very good, seemingly unbiased website went through all the evidence and published a very good, readable breakdown explaining why they think the FA were wrong, I highly recomend people have a read and see if it changes opinions, it certainly helped re-enforce mine, even though it explains arguments against Suarez as well: -

Look - football in this country is governed by the FA, not the CPS. As such football clubs agree to be bound by FA disciplinary rules - it is as simple as that. He was found guilty by a panel abiding by rules that all clubs agree to accept and that is almost the end of the story.
The end of the story is that he assured his team mates and his manager that he would shake hands and move on and he made his manager look an idiot on MOTD.
I dont like football and footballers but when i was growing up Liverpool were a team of great pride and dignity with managers and players of a similar mould who represented their Club, city and country befitting of their status as the No. 1 Club in England and Europe.
Suarez is not worthy of wearing a Liverpool shirt, he has brought disrepute onto the Club and caused them embarressment. The problem may not necessarily be in this country, but the club has global ambitions and it is hardly good for their image to have a player like him in their ranks and drawing unwanted publicity.
Quote by two-4-more
The link you've provided doesn't work. Shame as I'd like to read it.

Updated max777, dunno what happend, must have copied it wrong and missed a letter or something...
Thanks for that, makes for very interesting reading
Quote by Too Hot
Why should anyone have to shake anyones hands?
If someone threatened to punch you would you shake thier hand?
If someone accuses you of something you feel you have not done would you shake their hand?
Suarez obviously changed his mind, he said to the club that he would before hand, but when it came to it he obviously decided he wouldn't be two faced and do something he didn't want to do. Its his choice, he feels wronged and im my opinion (having read the whole of the 160 odd pages of FA "evidence"), had the whole thing just been handed to the Police by the FA in the first place, he would have been found not guilty - The Police and CPS work based on "beyond reasonable doubt" as opposed to "a balance of probability" to convict people, and lets face it "a balance of probability" just means i believe his story slightly more then yours, and has nothing to do with evidence.
There was no video evidence of his "alleged" multiple racial remarks, (strange considering it was such a big game live in many countries on many channels, using many cameras) and yet John Terry is caught by two different camera's blatenty using racial terminology. Lets not forget that seconds before they were both involved in a takle, and the camera's seemed to be following them and their argument. Had this gone to the police it would have been Suarez's word against Evra's, and given that Evra started the conversation in spanish, and that Suarez responded in spanish, the Police would have had to use the translation in Uraguayan spanish, which has no direct translation and so therefore no crime was commited. In fact its pretty well know that in those countries racism is not even thought about because there was never really a slave trade there, racism is at its most rampent in the US, UK and europe who were the most active in slavery.
A very good, seemingly unbiased website went through all the evidence and published a very good, readable breakdown explaining why they think the FA were wrong, I highly recomend people have a read and see if it changes opinions, it certainly helped re-enforce mine, even though it explains arguments against Suarez as well: -

Look - football in this country is governed by the FA, not the CPS. As such football clubs agree to be bound by FA disciplinary rules - it is as simple as that. He was found guilty by a panel abiding by rules that all clubs agree to acceptand that is almost the end of the story.

Which rules were the panel abiding by?
Quote by Too Hot
Look - football in this country is governed by the FA, not the CPS. As such football clubs agree to be bound by FA disciplinary rules - it is as simple as that. He was found guilty by a panel abiding by rules that all clubs agree to accept and that is almost the end of the story.
The end of the story is that he assured his team mates and his manager that he would shake hands and move on and he made his manager look an idiot on MOTD.
I dont like football and footballers but when i was growing up Liverpool were a team of great pride and dignity with managers and players of a similar mould who represented their Club, city and country befitting of their status as the No. 1 Club in England and Europe.
Suarez is not worthy of wearing a Liverpool shirt, he has brought disrepute onto the Club and caused them embarressment. The problem may not necessarily be in this country, but the club has global ambitions and it is hardly good for their image to have a player like him in their ranks and drawing unwanted publicity.

Football is governed by the FA that is very much correct, and in that case why has John Terry been taken to court and not just investigated by the FA?
The answer is quite simply this, the FA know there is enough evidence to either convict Terry on a court of law or at the very least (as has been proven) enough for him to be take to court. They simply have washed their hands of it and are waiting for the case to finish before "punishing" Terry in a football way. The very fact that Anton Ferdinand went to the police helped the FA out in a way.
In Suarez's case they obviously realised that no police complaint was going to be made. Evra I imagine knew that it would get no-where. Its my opinion that this complaint was not because Suarez was racist but just an on field spate of "handbags" that has spiralled out of control when Evra threw his toys out of the pram. Evra (and Ferguson) claim they have the moral high ground, that Evra is emotionally scarred by the whole thing, that he can hold his head up high for taking the correct action. I would like to think that the correct action against racism would be to report it to the police as Anton Ferdinand did. There can be only one of three reasons why Evra hasn't: -
1) There was no real "Racist" remark and its an argument that has all got out of hand with neither party willing to back down,
2) Evra has been advised there is not enough evidence and to "leave it"
3) Evra has lied
All in all the FA got what they wanted - a show trial. An opportunity to throw the book at a Non-English footballer accused of racism. It became a witch hunt, based on probability and not actual beyond doubt proof (no evidence, witnesses nor video), sensationalised by the good old English press (calling Suarez a racist - Which the FA and Evra have both said he is not!). Even Suarez's punishment didn't fit in with previous precedent:-

Mackie sat out 3 games (8 game ban 5 suspended) and paid just % of Suarez's fine (Mackie fined £3000, £1500 suspended), Suarez was banned for 8 games and paid a £40,000 fine.
Yes in relation to the fine wages are much greater now, and so should be a bigger fine. But there is a big difference there.
Of course in Mackie's case there were many witnesses - he was basically bang to rights, again this should have gone to court but Asaba accepted an apology. The best thing that could have happened in Suarez's case would have been for Suarez and Dalglish, Ferguson and Evra to be put in a room and discuss it, at the end of the day, the conversation was in Spanish between a French person for whom Spanish is not his first language and a Uruguayan who's Spanish will no doubt have regional differences to the basic Spanish most are taught. Its not like the Terry case were both are English, speaking English is it. Who knows had that have happened they may have all left the room happy that it was all lost in translation?
In regards to Suarez misleading the club, if they fine him, fair play but like I said the guy had to do what was right for him, which he has done.
there is little doubt as to the fact most of evra's side of the events are over exaggerated and further from the actual truth than Suarez's side of the events
this is not the first time either, once against Liverpool and again against Chelsea, given the size of the ban and the length of the ban, it's little surprise that suarez would want to shake the hands of a man who's lies cost him his reputation 40k and the opportunity to play football for 8 games
Quote by Ben_Minx

Quite. In my experience judges often have to remind jurors (who are as bigoted and prejudicial as the next man of course) of this vital point.

reely?
you must have a lot of experience ben to make a point that bold. rolleyes
or just an opinion dunno
This is where we seem to differ. I assume other human beings have filled their lives with experience which leads me to value their opinions, unless of course they are evidently bigoted and ill informed.
None of us are any different, we have all filled our lives with experience, just different ones from each other. I find all most everyone is bigoted and ill informed about one thing or another.
Perhaps we should take advise from a Mr Jackson and start with the man in the mirror?
Quote by Lizaleanrob
there is little doubt as to the fact most of evra's side of the events are over exaggerated and further from the actual truth than Suarez's side of the events
this is not the first time either, once against Liverpool and again against Chelsea, given the size of the ban and the length of the ban, it's little surprise that suarez would want to shake the hands of a man who's lies cost him his reputation 40k and the opportunity to play football for 8 games

yes rob for me evra is a liar and it was indeed a witch hunt. seeing as suarez has been found guilty of this crime, where now are the police to issue criminal procceedings?
Terry Case
Anton Ferdinand did not complain to the match officials or the FA but subsequently a complaint was made by (person unknown??) to the Police on the strength of TV footage. If Terry is found guilty in Court then I would think it highly likely that the FA would then take further action as he has brought the game into disrepute.
Evra did not make any complaints against Chelsea but he did make a complaint against Suarez of Liverpool and that complaint was investigated by the FA because the complaint was made to them. To date, no one has made a complaint to the Police and so no criminal action has been investigated.
Two completely different scenario's.
In respect of Suarez and Evra the comment was made that Evra is a liar. That same person suggested in another thread that it is "dangerous" to assume. If you look back at the disciplinary records of Evra and Suarez back through their careers I would say that it would be a safer bet to assume that Suarez will again bring disgrace onto Liverpool Football Club long before Evra will bring disgrace onto Manchester United. The look on Alan Hansens face that night on MOTD said it all for me - Suarez is not in the mold of Liverpool and his behaviour clearly sickened Hansen who indeed is, a true legend of the Club.
Quote by Too Hot
In respect of Suarez and Evra the comment was made that Evra is a liar. That same person suggested in another thread that it is "dangerous" to assume. If you look back at the disciplinary records of Evra and Suarez back through their careers I would say that it would be a safer bet to assume that Suarez will again bring disgrace onto Liverpool Football Club long before Evra will bring disgrace onto Manchester United. The look on Alan Hansens face that night on MOTD said it all for me - Suarez is not in the mold of Liverpool and his behaviour clearly sickened Hansen who indeed is, a true legend of the Club.

To quote the FA themselves from the report of the Suarez saga and the Chelsea groundsman affair, take from a link provided in one of my earlier posts...
336. "We considered it improbable that Mr Evra would act in such a dishonest way in order to damage the reputation of a fellow professional whose footballing skills he admires, with whom he had had no previous run-ins, and who he does not think is a racist."
It was strange that they should describe Evra in such a way, when a few years ago another Independent panel described Patrice Evra as follows:
"We find Mr Evra's description exaggerated... There was no good reason for Mr Evra to have run over and barged Mr Griffin as he did. It was unnecessarily and gratuitously aggressive of Mr Evra... Mr Evra's suggestion that he was concerned about Mr Strudwick's safety is far fetched. They were two grown men having an apparently strong verbal disagreement but no more than that. The clear implication by Mr Evra that Mr Griffin's pitchfork gave some reason for concern about Mr Strudwick's safety is ridiculous... We find Mr Evra's account exaggerated and unreliable. It is an attempt to justify a physical intervention by him which cannot reasonably be justified..."

This is what gives me the opinion that Evra is a liar, the FA believed he was a liar, he has lied before, he will lie again, and all this is without dredging up world cup issues. The problem for Suarez was that Blatter was being openly criticised for his racism comments, and having been so open with their condemnation the FA decided they needed to make their point even further, Suarez became a scapegoat in a witch-hunt. The FA disregarded much of the specialist evidence in order to fit the pre-determined verdict.
What also makes me laugh is the fact that not one of the members of the FA board actually have any experience of playing football at any league level - let alone the top level of national football, and definitely not International level. They are all business men, they need to re-structure, we moan and groan about FIFA but at least Blatter actually played football (and he was apparently not bad at it).
I personally think the PFA and all clubs with foreign players need to take responsibility for some of this. They shouldn't assume that every foreign player know of the "sensitivities" and the "political correctness" that exist in this country. They have a duty of care to the players to ensure that they educate them in the countries culture. they should also give them intensive language courses, highlighting words that can/can't be used, and to ensure they can communicate with referee's etc to improve the game and relations with officials.
Quote by Too Hot
In respect of Suarez and Evra the comment was made that Evra is a liar. That same person suggested in another thread that it is "dangerous" to assume. If you look back at the disciplinary records of Evra and Suarez back through their careers I would say that it would be a safer bet to assume that Suarez will again bring disgrace onto Liverpool Football Club long before Evra will bring disgrace onto Manchester United.

yes that person was me lol you make very bold statements too hot, and i hope that those bold statements at some point do not bite you up your arsey. peeple on here it seems have long memories and i will be the first one to remind you of your comment if evra brings his club or himself into dissrepute.
i stand by my comment about evra being a liar and i can also refer you to two 4 mores comments about evra above which sums up the chelsea issue very nicely thankyou very much :thumbup:
Quote by Too Hot
The look on Alan Hansens face that night on MOTD said it all for me - Suarez is not in the mold of Liverpool and his behaviour clearly sickened Hansen who indeed is, a true legend of the Club.

hansen is of course running scared now of saying the wrong thing after his comment about " coloured players " and then him having to make a grovelling apology the next day FFS. he has to now be seen to be whiter than white does mr hansen as in these pc times, the BBC may well be thinking one more slip mr hansen and you are sacked.
where colour is now concerned peeple have to think before they talk, as hansen now has to do on match of the day for feer of it being his last match of the day! :twisted:
Let us not forget the the FA is a law unto itself, it can make or break laws that other organisations have to abide by.
It is quite right that a player or dugout team should not abuse a ref during a match, Sir Alex should not stand on the touchline shouting abuse at ref or be allowed onto the pitch to question his decision. However, in an interview a few days later and discussing a game why is he not allowed to make a cool and calculated opinion by saying something like "the ref made some bad decisions and cost us/won us the match", at all other jobs even the queen and the government can be accused of that as a personal opinion by another person.
It is only in recent years that the CPS have considered charging sportsmen and women with assault, previously the governing organisations ruling was accepted as fair punishment, we see that only today with the after match fight at the the boxing.