Shame on you Liverpool FC

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx

what to me or someone that doesnt speak our language let alone read it
go figure

So you feel a language barrier excuses him from understanding the rules of the game he is employed to play?
I think you are being a bit silly.
so how come the police have not got involved ben as racism is also illegal
suarez hasn`t even been questioned by the police
so how come john terry has been charged but suarez has not

24 Dec 2011

Is this a trick question?

Quote by Lizaleanrob

what to me or someone that doesnt speak our language let alone read it
go figure

So you feel a language barrier excuses him from understanding the rules of the game he is employed to play?
I think you are being a bit silly.
so how come the police have not got involved ben as racism is also illegal
suarez hasn`t even been questioned by the police
so how come john terry has been charged but suarez has not

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Is this a trick question?

what to me or someone that doesnt speak our language let alone read it
go figure

So you feel a language barrier excuses him from understanding the rules of the game he is employed to play?
I think you are being a bit silly.
so how come the police have not got involved ben as racism is also illegal
suarez hasn`t even been questioned by the police
so how come john terry has been charged but suarez has not
why ya stuck you can phone a freind

24 Dec 2011

I dont understand the point you are trying to make.

24 Dec 2011

simple point ben
you say that its directed racism as was j terry so why has Suarez no been questioned both incidents happened on a football pitch in front of fans
just an simple answer will do

24 Dec 2011

Dunno, now he has admitted the insult I'm surprised they haven't.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Dunno, now he has admitted the insult I'm surprised they haven't.

really do you think theres a reason for it

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
So you feel a language barrier excuses him from understanding the rules of the game he is employed to play?
I think you are being a bit silly.

The rules of the game are different to the laws of the land, or knowledge of a culture. Suarez has only been in this country 10 months, if he is bought up in a country and culture that does not place the same meaning to a word that we do, it will take some time to learn this. He may not have realised the gravity of it until the FA got involved.

24 Dec 2011

[
this debate is going around in circles.
i will wait and hope that terrys solictor gets it kicked out of court. feck even cappello is still going to play terry as the england captain. chelsea are still playing him as capatin, what does that tell you? to me it tells me that most peeple think it is what it is, trying to make trouble when there is no trouble there.
i also hope that suaez gets his silly 8 match ban reduced to what i think it should be, a 5 yellow card offence of a one match ban and no fine.
what is crazy as what has been mentioned. both players have apparently both said racist comments and yet only one has been charged by the police. the fa have not intervened with terry, but did with suaez. how does that work?
i beleeve it happened on a football pitch and should no way have involved the police, but they did get involved for the reesons i have said many times in this thred.:notes:

24 Dec 2011

:doh:
around and around we go
banghead

as already pointed out, the rule of Law and the FA rules are separate.
however whilst the former applies to all in the UK, accepting the separate legal framework that applies in Scotland, the rules covering footballers applied by the FA are the same for all in that profession.
so what if a certain player is foreign and doesn't speak english as their first language, you can bet your bottom dollar that they fully understand the english contact that they signed and fully understand the UK work permit that they also applied for and signed, also in english.
therefore irrespective as to whether FA Rules are 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages there are other aspects of these, in english, that they've understood or had explained to them as part of their contract, etc. (Given government legislation and forms aren't usually known for their brevity and clarity either, how many pages written in english have to be waded through and completed by players and their advisors ?)
similarly it's been quoted that various players have signed up for the FA's lets kick racism out of the sport campaign, funnily enough also written in english, so they've understood this enough to actually sign up for it and lend their name publically as well.
therefore to claim they didn't know, I'd suggest is naive at best and deceiptful at worst.
there is also the point being raised around this case and that for a Chelsea player. It's interesting to note that, so far, Chelsea colleagues have not undertaken a similar 'shirt display'.
could this be that they are two separate incidents, with different circumstances, with different witnesses, with different investigations, undertaken by different bodies (FA and Police/CPS), following different reports, by different people about breaches of different things (FA Rule and English Law) ?
as for the FA investigations into both incidents, then you'd have to ask the FA, whilst in respect of criminal charges then you'd have to ask the Police/CPS.
however at this point in time the one thing that we all know, is the FA independant panel has considered one case and as a result decided to impose an 8 match sanction.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
kenny dalish's take on the matter

kenny is a very very genuine guy and a much better judge of character than most on this forun

He is the same age and mindset as Richard Keys and Andy Gray and completely out of touch with modern attitudes towards racism.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
simple point ben
you say that its directed racism as was j terry so why has Suarez no been questioned both incidents happened on a football pitch in front of fans
just an simple answer will do

John Terry was questioned by the Police because a complaint was received them.
No complaint has been received by the Police about the Saurez incident - yet.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Here we go. All i ever wish for is a forum where everybody can express opinions without fear of personal attack.
So back to the debate. The details of the provocations I have suffered are irrelevant. My point stands. I don't see why football should be any different from any other occupation. In fact thinking about it, given the public nature of that employment perhaps we should expect the highest possible standards of behaviour.
I am sure the individual would have had the sense not to walk into a pub or cafe and call one of the mixed race patrons that name eh? TBH if he did it round any of the places I have lived he would be lookin for his teeth.

There was no personal attack and the provocation I was referring to was not yours. You say that you don't see why football should be any different from other forms of occupation. Unfortunately, in many ways it is. In how many other occupations do people try and kick you to stop doing your job?
You state quite categorically that Suarez meant to hurt Evra with by what he said. How can you be so sure? Were you at the match, did you even see the match, do you know what lead up to the verbal exchange? Was Evra trying to kick lumps out of Suarez, trying to inflict physical hurt on him? Was Suarez's reaction an involuntary reaction to pain.
We all react Ben, even you, that's the point I was making.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by MidsCouple24
snip
I said I would have supported other forms of action to show that they thought he had made some sort of mistake or error of judgement.

Did you?
Yes I did
quote
He was tried by an organisation he and his fellow Liverpool players, management and shareholders have signed up to abide by therefore there can be no "yes but no but yes but no", I would have to abide by the ruling of a Magistrates or County Courts judgement and I haven't even signed up to thier laws I am simply a resident of the UK by birth, I got no choice in the matter, they did get a choice, if they didn't agree with it then they should be appealing or going on strike or anything but not showing support in this manner, there were other options available to them to show support, the media love to talk to them why not just issue a statement to say that they as one all thought him innocent despite the ruling ? what they did was wear his shirt with his name and his number which says to me, "he is racist and I am the same as him".
Sorry but in the bit you have highlighted, you do not say anywhere that you would have supported other forms of action. What you do say is that there were other options available to them, including appealing and making a statement...both of which I belive Liverpool have done.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by HnS
:doh:
around and around we go

as already pointed out, the rule of Law and the FA rules are separate.
however whilst the former applies to all in the UK, accepting the separate legal framework that applies in Scotland, the rules covering footballers applied by the FA are the same for all in that profession.
so what if a certain player is foreign and doesn't speak english as their first language, you can bet your bottom dollar that they fully understand the english contact that they signed and fully understand the UK work permit that they also applied for and signed, also in english.
therefore irrespective as to whether FA Rules are 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages there are other aspects of these, in english, that they've understood or had explained to them as part of their contract, etc. (Given government legislation and forms aren't usually known for their brevity and clarity either, how many pages written in english have to be waded through and completed by players and their advisors ?)
therefore to claim they didn't know, I'd suggest is naive at best and deceiptful at worst.

Sorry but that's just plain tosh.
The contract will have been agreed by the players agent/legal advisers as will have any necessary work permits. The salient points will have been explained to the player, ie how much is his salary etc I doubt very much that they will have been informed of the meanings of every sub clause within the contract.
The player will not have waded through any forms. I doubt that any English players wade through any forms either.

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Max777
:doh:
around and around we go

as already pointed out, the rule of Law and the FA rules are separate.
however whilst the former applies to all in the UK, accepting the separate legal framework that applies in Scotland, the rules covering footballers applied by the FA are the same for all in that profession.
so what if a certain player is foreign and doesn't speak english as their first language, you can bet your bottom dollar that they fully understand the english contact that they signed and fully understand the UK work permit that they also applied for and signed, also in english.
therefore irrespective as to whether FA Rules are 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages there are other aspects of these, in english, that they've understood or had explained to them as part of their contract, etc. (Given government legislation and forms aren't usually known for their brevity and clarity either, how many pages written in english have to be waded through and completed by players and their advisors ?)
therefore to claim they didn't know, I'd suggest is naive at best and deceiptful at worst.

Sorry but that's just plain tosh.
The contract will have been agreed by the players agent/legal advisers as will have any necessary work permits. The salient points will have been explained to the player, ie how much is his salary etc I doubt very much that they will have been informed of the meanings of every sub clause within the contract.
The player will not have waded through any forms. I doubt that any English players wade through any forms either.
mmmm
so if you sign your name to something your not responsible for it ?

24 Dec 2011

Quote by HnS
:doh:
around and around we go

as already pointed out, the rule of Law and the FA rules are separate.
however whilst the former applies to all in the UK, accepting the separate legal framework that applies in Scotland, the rules covering footballers applied by the FA are the same for all in that profession.
so what if a certain player is foreign and doesn't speak english as their first language, you can bet your bottom dollar that they fully understand the english contact that they signed and fully understand the UK work permit that they also applied for and signed, also in english.
therefore irrespective as to whether FA Rules are 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages there are other aspects of these, in english, that they've understood or had explained to them as part of their contract, etc. (Given government legislation and forms aren't usually known for their brevity and clarity either, how many pages written in english have to be waded through and completed by players and their advisors ?)
therefore to claim they didn't know, I'd suggest is naive at best and deceiptful at worst.

Sorry but that's just plain tosh.
The contract will have been agreed by the players agent/legal advisers as will have any necessary work permits. The salient points will have been explained to the player, ie how much is his salary etc I doubt very much that they will have been informed of the meanings of every sub clause within the contract.
The player will not have waded through any forms. I doubt that any English players wade through any forms either.
mmmm
so if you sign your name to something your not responsible for it ?
Where did I say that?

24 Dec 2011

Quote by Max777
There was no personal attack and the provocation I was referring to was not yours. You say that you don't see why football should be any different from other forms of occupation. Unfortunately, in many ways it is. In how many other occupations do people try and kick you to stop doing your job?
You state quite categorically that Suarez meant to hurt Evra with by what he said. How can you be so sure? Were you at the match, did you even see the match, do you know what lead up to the verbal exchange? Was Evra trying to kick lumps out of Suarez, trying to inflict physical hurt on him? Was Suarez's reaction an involuntary reaction to pain.
We all react Ben, even you, that's the point I was making.

Thanks for the clarification Max I didn't mean you either.
Gettin kicked at work? Teachers, care assistants, nurses, coppers the list goes on and on.
I admit that its an assumption that hurt was intended. That said they were on opposing teams and the fella did make a complaint.
And yes its a "mans " game and that really doesn't excuse the behaviours to my mind.
I still think if you move abroad as a professional you have a responsibility to learn what conduct is expected of you. I think Liverpool FC had a responsibility to ensure he understood them too. Isnt that a fundamental of employment law?

24 Dec 2011

I agree that there are others that may well sometimes be kicked in the line of their employment. Do you really believe that none of them react? Teachers possibly, as the poor buggers are all but defenceless. I can't imagine a copper being kicked and patting his assailant on the head and saying "there there, that's OK now"
Having played football at a decent level until well into my forties, I understand all about its verbal exchanges. Players talk to their opponents all the time, usually trying to gain the psychological upper hand but sometimes it's just an involuntary reaction to someone kicking lumps out you.
I've heard people called ginger c*nts, bald c*nts, lanky twats and I was even called a "tashy git" ( in the days when I had a moustache) Most of the time these names mean nothing, just something that's said in the heat of the moment.
I'm not trying to say that racial abuse can be excused as something said in the heat of the moment but given the fact that the word Suarez used is not considered as a racist insult in his own country, it could well be that it was not meant as a racist jibe.
The other thing that has not been taken into account is the fact that Liverpool and Man Utd positively detest each other. I wonder had this involved two other teams, would we be debating it now?

25 Dec 2011

Fair points well made, merry Christmas Max.

25 Dec 2011

Quote by HnS
so if you sign your name to something your not responsible for it ?

I would imagine a player will sign any contract if he is told by his agent all is above board, in much the same way that people will click on "i agree to the terms and conditions" when joining a forum, a site, a service or downloading an update without reading and dissecting every paragraph in it.

25 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Fair points well made, merry Christmas Max.

Cheers Ben, Merry Christmas to you too

25 Dec 2011

Quote by Too Hot
kenny dalish's take on the matter

kenny is a very very genuine guy and a much better judge of character than most on this forun

He is the same age and mindset as Richard Keys and Andy Gray and completely out of touch with modern attitudes towards racism.
what a well thought out logical post :thumbup:
my uncle is the same age do you think i should inform his african wife before its too late :huh:

25 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
You are aware of the FA guidelines?
Oh and this popped up and I thought i would share.
"Dixie Dean was leaving the pitch after a game in 1938 when a spectator called out: "We will get you yet, you black bastard." Dean went over to him and punched him in the face. A policeman came running over but instead of arresting him, shook him by the hand."

I've just noticed this. You are aware Ben, that Dixie Dean was white? I have seen where the above quote comes from and the supposed origins of his nickname "Dixie". A little more research and I found this:
Alternatively, the Tranmere Rovers's club historian Gilbert Upton uncovered evidence that the name 'Dixie' could be a corruption of his childhood nickname, Digsy - acquired from his approach to the children's game of tag, where Dean would dig his fist into the girl's back, hence 'Digsy'.
More can be found at the following link, including a photograph that looks nothing like the cigarette card caricature.

26 Dec 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
kenny dalish's take on the matter

kenny is a very very genuine guy and a much better judge of character than most on this forun

He is the same age and mindset as Richard Keys and Andy Gray and completely out of touch with modern attitudes towards racism.
what a well thought out logical post :thumbup:
my uncle is the same age do you think i should inform his african wife before its too late :huh:
Really can't understand why you are being so blinkered about this. Why do you think Kenny Dalgleish allowed this to happen then? It is because, like you, he felt that Saurez had done nothing wrong. That is out of touch with modern laws in this country - whether we like them or nor. Andy Gray & Richard Keys similarly felt like they had done nothing wrong with their "banter" whilst at Sky Sports. No one is being bloody minded here other than you. I don't agree with many of the laws in this country but I can't pick and choose which ones I want to abide with.

26 Dec 2011

Quote by Too Hot
kenny dalish's take on the matter

kenny is a very very genuine guy and a much better judge of character than most on this forun

He is the same age and mindset as Richard Keys and Andy Gray and completely out of touch with modern attitudes towards racism.
what a well thought out logical post :thumbup:
my uncle is the same age do you think i should inform his african wife before its too late :huh:
Really can't understand why you are being so blinkered about this. Why do you think Kenny Dalgleish allowed this to happen then? It is because, like you, he felt that Saurez had done nothing wrong. That is out of touch with modern laws in this country - whether we like them or nor. Andy Gray & Richard Keys similarly felt like they had done nothing wrong with their "banter" whilst at Sky Sports. No one is being bloody minded here other than you. I don't agree with many of the laws in this country but I can't pick and choose which ones I want to abide with.
firstly keys and grey was dismissed on the basis of sexism not racism
i have a far better understanding on how the word is used in south America than the British use of the word
as an employer i don't tolerate racism in any way or form
now as far as jonn terry is concerned he has every thing that is coming to him the FA cannot act now there is a police investigation and its odd that an email complaint saved the FA the embarrassment of a trial of their national teams captain for racism (when racism apparently does not exist in the English game )
so whats the next best thing a foreign player who's only ties to British football is Liverpool football club
there you go the F A looks good to the rest of the world
an anonymous email puts paid to terry without the FA getting their hand dirty and an alternative fall guy is presented on a gold plated platter
like i said before this is a big money game with much at steak i don't really think I'm being the blinkered one based on the use of a foreign word

26 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Here we go. All i ever wish for is a forum where everybody can express opinions without fear of personal attack.
So back to the debate. The details of the provocations I have suffered are irrelevant. My point stands. I don't see why football should be any different from any other occupation. In fact thinking about it, given the public nature of that employment perhaps we should expect the highest possible standards of behaviour.
I am sure the individual would have had the sense not to walk into a pub or cafe and call one of the mixed race patrons that name eh? TBH if he did it round any of the places I have lived he would be lookin for his teeth.

Quote by Ben_Minx
You are aware of the FA guidelines?
Oh and this popped up and I thought i would share.
"Dixie Dean was leaving the pitch after a game in 1938 when a spectator called out: "We will get you yet, you black bastard." Dean went over to him and punched him in the face. A policeman came running over but instead of arresting him, shook him by the hand."

There does seam to be a bit of a theme here
Happy with the violence dunno

26 Dec 2011

Nope using every day reactions to illustrate how people react to such abuse.

26 Dec 2011

Quote by Ben_Minx
Nope using every day reactions to illustrate how people react to such abuse.

Appalling behaviour, I deplore such violence

26 Dec 2011

Quote by Max777
:doh:
around and around we go

as already pointed out, the rule of Law and the FA rules are separate.
however whilst the former applies to all in the UK, accepting the separate legal framework that applies in Scotland, the rules covering footballers applied by the FA are the same for all in that profession.
so what if a certain player is foreign and doesn't speak english as their first language, you can bet your bottom dollar that they fully understand the english contact that they signed and fully understand the UK work permit that they also applied for and signed, also in english.
therefore irrespective as to whether FA Rules are 5 pages, 50 pages or 500 pages there are other aspects of these, in english, that they've understood or had explained to them as part of their contract, etc. (Given government legislation and forms aren't usually known for their brevity and clarity either, how many pages written in english have to be waded through and completed by players and their advisors ?)
therefore to claim they didn't know, I'd suggest is naive at best and deceiptful at worst.

Sorry but that's just plain tosh.
The contract will have been agreed by the players agent/legal advisers as will have any necessary work permits. The salient points will have been explained to the player, ie how much is his salary etc I doubt very much that they will have been informed of the meanings of every sub clause within the contract.
The player will not have waded through any forms. I doubt that any English players wade through any forms either.
Thankyou for aggreeing with me then, My thread was "Shame on you Liverpool FC" not shame on Suarez, he has been punished and will know doubt regret his actions (or not last long in the English league) Liverpool FC know the rules and if what you say if right then Liverpool FC have failed to pass vital work information on to Suarez or his agent in a proficient and sufficient manner, they should not just be explaining salary terms should they, if they don't make players aware of the highly topical and possibly explosive situation regarding racism in football they have failed in their duty so I repeat, shame on you Liverpool FC.
The purpose of my post by it's very title was not to discuss the right and wrongs of what he did, for me he was punished and that was enough, it was about the actions of his fellow players and the organisation (Liverpool FC) who seem to think that thier actions were a good thing and help to him when in point of fact they have just prolonged the incident and highlighted it even more.