So once again the country grinds to a halt because of some snow.
I find it unbelievable that this can happen in 2010 in the UK.
Schools close.....the trains stop...buses cannot move.....people in a lot of instances simply do not even bother to try and get to work.
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
The local schools around my way could have easily opened up on Friday, but obviously decided to make it a nice long weekend.
Local councils running out of grit even though a report was carried out after last February's snow caused chaos. Nothing was done about ordering in more grit, hence why a lot of councils are now struggling.
All this in a country that is supposed to be one of the powerful nations?
I agree with Sainburys attitude that anyone not coming into work will not get paid. They will have to either make the hours up, or take it as holiday. The reason I agree with this instance is that most staff who work at a supermarket, will not live that far from it.
After all the problems over the last week, will the councils, or the Government learn anything from this?....what is the betting it will happen once again when the next snow comes.
The local councils have NO excuses left. Forget about extreme weather...they should be much better equipped than they were...bottom line is they just simply did not have enough, as no doubt did not want to spend the money on something that for once is worth the spending.
Anyone would think this is Iceland....panic buying on a large scale. Up North they see this weather on a regular basis and cope ok but...down in " softy South " the first signs of anything over an inch of snow, and it has us running around like headless chickens....a bit pathetic I think.
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Snow joke !
Sex God
Our kids school opened on Friday and to be honest it had bog all to do with the teachers or the head it was down to the two guys from the works department putting in silly hours and effort, There was absolute chaos for the school run though, with the car arks being off limits so half of the 1000 kids at the school were being dropped of outside the front gates. It was so absurd it was funny.
I don't like Tesco stores but credit to them not once closed through adverse weather nor did they run out of anything, though choice became limited and expensive as to bread. and there was no distinct reduction in floor staff evident though I have been told that there were quite a few missing.
All in all the British aren't good with extremes of weather but hey it does make for an interesting few days and a great start to 2010 with all the seasons in order.
I don't like Tesco stores but credit to them not once closed through adverse weather nor did they run out of anything, though choice became limited and expensive as to bread. and there was no distinct reduction in floor staff evident though I have been told that there were quite a few missing.
All in all the British aren't good with extremes of weather but hey it does make for an interesting few days and a great start to 2010 with all the seasons in order.
An interesting view of the extreme weather from mainland Europe.
Gritters here seem to be equipped with snow ploughs on the front with the spreader on the back. This effectively means that the grit is being applied to a cleared surface, whereas in the UK, the grit is being applied on top of significant depths of snow.
Could this make the effort less effective?
In Russia, they cart the snow away in lorries rather than leave it on the roadside.
Gritters here seem to be equipped with snow ploughs on the front with the spreader on the back. This effectively means that the grit is being applied to a cleared surface, whereas in the UK, the grit is being applied on top of significant depths of snow.
Could this make the effort less effective?
In Russia, they cart the snow away in lorries rather than leave it on the roadside.
Nice post Kenty and welcome back you were missed!!
I must say i agree in most parts with your post especially the bit about the "softy South" it is very very noticable that the only time bad weather here in the North ever gets mentioned on the "main news" is when the South has got it too.
I live in the Yorkshire Dales in the middle of nowhere and have to travel 25 miles to work every day (new job now) and i must say that our local council guys have done a fantastic job both ploughing and gritting the roads and i have not missed a single day yet and nor have any of the 100+ staff i work with because of the snow.
Our gritters have got ploughs on the front and grit from the back but many of our roads are either too narrow to fit the plough or too narrow due to the "Range Rover Crew" that cant drive there 4x4 in any weather having dumped them at the side of the road!
My little ones school did close but because the heating was not good enough to raise the temp sufficiently after the nights had been -12 to -15 so understandable.
Our supermarket staff though because of where they are did struggle to fully staff as many of the checkout ladies are farmers wives etc who really and genuinely could not make although i did see one lady who works at the local co -op being dropped off on the back of a quad bike so good effort!
I must say i agree in most parts with your post especially the bit about the "softy South" it is very very noticable that the only time bad weather here in the North ever gets mentioned on the "main news" is when the South has got it too.
I live in the Yorkshire Dales in the middle of nowhere and have to travel 25 miles to work every day (new job now) and i must say that our local council guys have done a fantastic job both ploughing and gritting the roads and i have not missed a single day yet and nor have any of the 100+ staff i work with because of the snow.
Our gritters have got ploughs on the front and grit from the back but many of our roads are either too narrow to fit the plough or too narrow due to the "Range Rover Crew" that cant drive there 4x4 in any weather having dumped them at the side of the road!
My little ones school did close but because the heating was not good enough to raise the temp sufficiently after the nights had been -12 to -15 so understandable.
Our supermarket staff though because of where they are did struggle to fully staff as many of the checkout ladies are farmers wives etc who really and genuinely could not make although i did see one lady who works at the local co -op being dropped off on the back of a quad bike so good effort!
Sex God
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? 
We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?
Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
Quote by neilinleeds
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
I did read yesterday that schools attendance figures would NOT include any absence with regard to snow.....so no excuses there.
The bottom line....certainly in many schools, is that the head just could not be sure how many teachers would actually bother to turn up. So did not want to be left with a situation of a school full of kids and only a handful of teachers.
When I was at school in the 70's I can never remember my school being closed due to snow fall....we just got on with it. Unlike today where people use any excuse to take time off, especially if they will get paid for it. I wonder how many more would have turned up for work if they were NOT going to get paid?
My local Sainsburys on Saturday had lost half of it's staff, mainly due to sickness ( as that is the only way they were going to be paid ).
Yes I know it has been an unusual week or so down here but, I think it has been a pathetic attitude by many with regards to keeping the roads open and the trains going and the schools open.
Funny though that at the local secondary school where GCSE and A level exams were starting on Monday, the school on it's website stated in bold letters....the school will be open on Monday no matter what....exam results you see.
So why could they not have adopted that same attitude over the last few days?
Seems exams figures matter far more to schools than most other things.
The bottom line....certainly in many schools, is that the head just could not be sure how many teachers would actually bother to turn up. So did not want to be left with a situation of a school full of kids and only a handful of teachers.
When I was at school in the 70's I can never remember my school being closed due to snow fall....we just got on with it. Unlike today where people use any excuse to take time off, especially if they will get paid for it. I wonder how many more would have turned up for work if they were NOT going to get paid?
My local Sainsburys on Saturday had lost half of it's staff, mainly due to sickness ( as that is the only way they were going to be paid ).
Yes I know it has been an unusual week or so down here but, I think it has been a pathetic attitude by many with regards to keeping the roads open and the trains going and the schools open.
Funny though that at the local secondary school where GCSE and A level exams were starting on Monday, the school on it's website stated in bold letters....the school will be open on Monday no matter what....exam results you see.
So why could they not have adopted that same attitude over the last few days?
Seems exams figures matter far more to schools than most other things.
Quote by Max777
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Quote by Max777
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Quote by awayman
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Your first comment I do not know how you can say a headteacher is talking bollocks? If he did say it then it happened in HIS school, and unless you know different then I would presume he knows his job?
Your second comment is quite true but....it was not about his legal duties only the fact he could not open the school with a lack of teachers who did not get into school. A headteacher who cannot open his school for fear that teachers would not turn up because of some snow, is as I have stated....a sad indictment.
Surely a school can make it's paths safe? As inside school it will be fine. So only from the school gates to the entrance do the schools need to act....a caretaker used to do that job when I was younger, and as I have stated already,they were not closed due to snow when I was a kid....no doubt I wish they had of been.
Quote by kentswingers777
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Your first comment I do not know how you can say a headteacher is talking bollocks? If he did say it then it happened in HIS school, and unless you know different then I would presume he knows his job?
Your second comment is quite true but....it was not about his legal duties only the fact he could not open the school with a lack of teachers who did not get into school. A headteacher who cannot open his school for fear that teachers would not turn up because of some snow, is as I have stated....a sad indictment.
Surely a school can make it's paths safe? As inside school it will be fine. So only from the school gates to the entrance do the schools need to act....a caretaker used to do that job when I was younger, and as I have stated already,they were not closed due to snow when I was a kid....no doubt I wish they had of been.
How can I say a headteacher is talking bollocks? Here's the appropriate quote from the DCSF website.
If our school is open, but some pupils cannot get into school because of severe disruption to school buses, public transport or parents being unwilling to risk driving on icy roads, do we have to record those pupils as 'absent'?
If the school is open, then if some of a school's pupils whose home is not within walking distance of the school get to school by transport that is provided by the school or a local education authority, and that transport is not available because of adverse weather conditions, then if the school stays open, those pupils should be marked using code Y (Forced and Partial Closure). Code Y does not count as absence in the statistics.
All other children should be expected to attend and should be recorded as present/absent as normal. It is down to headteachers to make professional and common-sense judgements about marking children as authorized or unauthorized absences during very severe weather. If a school which remained opened is satisfied that the reason a child could not get to school was because of the adverse weather then that absence should be authorised; if a school judges the child could have made it to school, than that absence should be unauthorised.
The data do not enable the DCSF to alter the formula in any way that would isolate the absences due to inclement weather, or even for the days concerned. The only available data is for total numbers of absences for each term and particular days (or even weeks) cannot be isloated. This does mean that the absence percentage for a school that stays open may be higher than if it had closed if significant numbers of pupils are unable to attend. However, the main focus is on persistent absence (which is defined as missing 20 per cent or more of possible sessions). It is unlikely that persistent absence would be significantly affected by short periods of adverse weather. Moreover when looking at attendance, Ofsted inspectors look at trends over time. When looking at registers, if there appear to be specific days or periods of time when there is high absence inspectors will discuss with the school the reasons for it. Similarly the National Strategies will take account of such circumstances in their support and challenge work on persistent absence with LAs and schools.
So, I'm a layman and could find that guidance in under a minute using Google and common sense. If a headteacher can't do that I wouldn't want them teaching my kids.
Quote by awayman
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Do I also have to speak slowly for your benefit?
I am well aware of the problems and cost of gritting, however I still think we could do a better job. I travelled at least twice a day at rush hour times, on most days of the past three weeks, on major roads within the North East which had obviously not been gritted and never once saw a gritter on the roads. Maybe I was just unlucky? :dunno:
Oh and I wouldn't want a job at the local council, thank you. I'll leave that up to armchair experts armed with Google. God preserve us indeed!
Sex God
Quote by Kaznkev
Without the staff to open the school,it would not have been pointless it would have been ilegal,duty of care is a fact.
Consider wether you would want your kids unsupervised all day?
If I can travel 15 miles, and colleagues can travel 30+ miles, to work so can the teachers. Of course, if I stay off I lose money or holiday, and the teachers lose neither. Maybe that has an effect on how bad the weather looks from their point of view.
Sex God
Armchair critics! Oh that's made me laugh! :lol:
One bit of snow and people start talking like it happens every single week. Get a grip and embrace the snow days of winter! The buses stopped running, the trains stopped running, not every one has a car, some cars were snowed in, some were frozen, some broke down due to the cold and you know things are bad weather-wise when Manchester airport closes, they hardly ever close! :lol:
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work? Rather have a day making snowmen, sledging and throwing snow balls. No amount of school/work can buy those experiences when we have snow sooooo infrequently.
Those places that did open, what were their attendance figures? Hmmmmm?
LG. x
Oh that's made me laugh! :lol:One bit of snow and people start talking like it happens every single week. Get a grip and embrace the snow days of winter! The buses stopped running, the trains stopped running, not every one has a car, some cars were snowed in, some were frozen, some broke down due to the cold and you know things are bad weather-wise when Manchester airport closes, they hardly ever close! :lol:
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work? Rather have a day making snowmen, sledging and throwing snow balls. No amount of school/work can buy those experiences when we have snow sooooo infrequently.
Those places that did open, what were their attendance figures? Hmmmmm?
LG. x Sex God
Quote by little gem
Armchair critics!
One bit of snow and people start talking like it happens every single week. Get a grip and embrace the snow days of winter! The buses stopped running, the trains stopped running, not every one has a car, some cars were snowed in, some were frozen, some broke down due to the cold and you know things are bad weather-wise when Manchester airport closes, they hardly ever close! :lol:
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work? Rather have a day making snowmen, sledging and throwing snow balls. No amount of school/work can buy those experiences when we have snow sooooo infrequently.
Those places that did open, what were their attendance figures? Hmmmmm?
I agree in part but there is another side to this. A lot of companies will be making redundancies in the next 2 years or so as the effects of the recession flow down. People who didn't get into work - whether they could or not (and there is often an element of opinion there as it is) may very well be marked down against 'loyalty' and such like and will be that little bit nearer the top of the redundancy list. Don't believe me? You should, I've seen the redundancy matrix my company uses and this would be included. Especially where some make it in from the same area. You're supposed to bleed and die for your company nowadays.
Sex God
Quote by awayman
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Your first comment I do not know how you can say a headteacher is talking bollocks? If he did say it then it happened in HIS school, and unless you know different then I would presume he knows his job?
Your second comment is quite true but....it was not about his legal duties only the fact he could not open the school with a lack of teachers who did not get into school. A headteacher who cannot open his school for fear that teachers would not turn up because of some snow, is as I have stated....a sad indictment.
Surely a school can make it's paths safe? As inside school it will be fine. So only from the school gates to the entrance do the schools need to act....a caretaker used to do that job when I was younger, and as I have stated already,they were not closed due to snow when I was a kid....no doubt I wish they had of been.
How can I say a headteacher is talking bollocks? Here's the appropriate quote from the DCSF website.
If our school is open, but some pupils cannot get into school because of severe disruption to school buses, public transport or parents being unwilling to risk driving on icy roads, do we have to record those pupils as 'absent'?
If the school is open, then if some of a school's pupils whose home is not within walking distance of the school get to school by transport that is provided by the school or a local education authority, and that transport is not available because of adverse weather conditions, then if the school stays open, those pupils should be marked using code Y (Forced and Partial Closure). Code Y does not count as absence in the statistics.
All other children should be expected to attend and should be recorded as present/absent as normal. It is down to headteachers to make professional and common-sense judgements about marking children as authorized or unauthorized absences during very severe weather. If a school which remained opened is satisfied that the reason a child could not get to school was because of the adverse weather then that absence should be authorised; if a school judges the child could have made it to school, than that absence should be unauthorised.
The data do not enable the DCSF to alter the formula in any way that would isolate the absences due to inclement weather, or even for the days concerned. The only available data is for total numbers of absences for each term and particular days (or even weeks) cannot be isloated. This does mean that the absence percentage for a school that stays open may be higher than if it had closed if significant numbers of pupils are unable to attend. However, the main focus is on persistent absence (which is defined as missing 20 per cent or more of possible sessions). It is unlikely that persistent absence would be significantly affected by short periods of adverse weather. Moreover when looking at attendance, Ofsted inspectors look at trends over time. When looking at registers, if there appear to be specific days or periods of time when there is high absence inspectors will discuss with the school the reasons for it. Similarly the National Strategies will take account of such circumstances in their support and challenge work on persistent absence with LAs and schools.
So, I'm a layman and could find that guidance in under a minute using Google and common sense. If a headteacher can't do that I wouldn't want them teaching my kids.
The problem for the head teacher could well be that the children who are within walking distance will not turn up for school, we had some snow fall last week, the school remained open, all children are within walking distance, yet the school was almost empty. Those would have to marked as unauthorised.....
That is my thoughts
Sex God
Redundancies will happen anyway! Snow or no snow! It is just a very convenient excuse for those at the top to make more money if they're that way out. If companies want rid, they'll do it no matter what the weather is!
Bleed and die for my company? No. that's why I believe in unionisation.
Bleed and die for my company? No. that's why I believe in unionisation.
Quote by little gem
Armchair critics!
One bit of snow and people start talking like it happens every single week. Get a grip and embrace the snow days of winter! The buses stopped running, the trains stopped running, not every one has a car, some cars were snowed in, some were frozen, some broke down due to the cold and you know things are bad weather-wise when Manchester airport closes, they hardly ever close! :lol:
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work? Rather have a day making snowmen, sledging and throwing snow balls. No amount of school/work can buy those experiences when we have snow sooooo infrequently.
Those places that did open, what were their attendance figures? Hmmmmm?
That is fine if people choose to do that, but those same people will expect their employers to pay for their day of throwing snow balls.
To me that simply cannot be right.
Sex God
Why is that not right?
Sour grapes?
Green eyed monsters?
Unable to join in the snowball fight so campaign for everyone else's snowballs to be taken off them cos some aren't playing and *pouts* it isn't fair?!
To me, what is not simply right, is the expectation/demands that someone should take unnecessary risks in order to get to/be in work. If the place is closed or you are forced into the situation that you can't get there, why should you not get paid?
Sour grapes?
Green eyed monsters?
Unable to join in the snowball fight so campaign for everyone else's snowballs to be taken off them cos some aren't playing and *pouts* it isn't fair?!
Quote by In one of my previous posts, I
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work?
To me, what is not simply right, is the expectation/demands that someone should take unnecessary risks in order to get to/be in work. If the place is closed or you are forced into the situation that you can't get there, why should you not get paid?
Sex God
Quote by little gem
Why is that not right?
Sour grapes?
Green eyed monsters?
Unable to join in the snowball fight so campaign for everyone else's snowballs to be taken off them cos some aren't playing and *pouts* it isn't fair?!
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work?
To me, what is not simply right, is the expectation/demands that someone should take unnecessary risks in order to get to/be in work. If the place is closed or you are forced into the situation that you can't get there, why should you not get paid?
I work in the public sector and I had a choice of taking holiday time or unpaid leave when I could not dig my car out of the snow. Apparently it's been decided that staff are highly irresponsible and will shout 'snow-day' at the first sign of a flake (of the snow kind) if they're allowed paid days off in bad weather, so as an incentive to get to work they're made to use their own time or face financial loss.
I'm now contemplating drafting a letter to my manager and the HR department stating that I will pursue legal action if I'm involved in an accident while having undue financial pressure applied to me to attend work in extreme and dangerous conditions, against my better judgement and police advice. Much fucking good it'll do me though. :lol2:
And yes, my grapes are very sour. :rude: :lol2:
Quote by Bluefish2009
A friend of mine told me the main reason his secondary school was closed, was simply that the head teacher thought many teachers would not make the effort to get into school. He had no hesitation in saying that most kids would have got to school, but with hardly any teachers there, it would have been pointless opening the school...a sad indictment.
I've read that one of the considerations may be OFSTED targets on attendance. If a school stays open, and most of the pupils stay away over a number of days because of bad weather, that would affect the attendance record which could lead to the school missing its target. I have no idea how much truth there is in that?
Where's FB when you need her? We don't seem to do as well as other European countries dealing with snow, but then again we only really have a few days of really heavy snow a year. Yer Norwegians for example better make damn sure they're geared up for months of the stuff, but our weather is usually so moderate it's probably not worth the investment in more snow-ploughs or whatever. I suspect that the loss to the economy caused by a few days of really extreme weather every now and then is generally less than the cost of properly equipping to deal with it?Welcome back btw Kenty. ;)
N x x x ;)
BBC interviewed a headmaster on TV last week and this very point was put to him and he agreed that it was something that was likely to be taken into consideration, although not by him. My daughter's school announced that they would never close, much to her disgust.
In the 3 weeks that we have had snow up here, I have seen only one snow plough and not a single gritter and I have driven to and from work all through the Christmas holidays. Several times I drove through blizzard conditions when the roads obviously had not been gritted and driving conditions were scary. Surely it's simple logic, get the grit down BEFORE the snow arrives?
God preserve us from threads like this.
The headmaster on the BBC was wrong, simple as, and should be disciplined for talking bollocks and bringing teaching into disrepute.
Grit before the snow falls? Get it wrong by an hour and the salt will have been crushed and dispersed by wheels before the snow even falls. Can you predict snowfall that precisely? If you can, there's a job for you in a local council, because the Met Office can't. Oh, and because the salt is ineffective after an hour, you'll need to find the budget for a lot more gritters as well. The mix of vehicles with ploughs and multi purpose vehicles that grit is down to cost; any council could have more gritters and ploughs if it had more money, but truth to tell ploughs are more expensive than gritting vehicles and ploughs are only needed for ten percent of the time that gritting is required in most urban environments.
As for schools closing because there aren't enough teachers, think about the head's legal duties. he is required by law to provide a safe system and place of work; if he doesn't have enough staff he can't do that.
Your first comment I do not know how you can say a headteacher is talking bollocks? If he did say it then it happened in HIS school, and unless you know different then I would presume he knows his job?
Your second comment is quite true but....it was not about his legal duties only the fact he could not open the school with a lack of teachers who did not get into school. A headteacher who cannot open his school for fear that teachers would not turn up because of some snow, is as I have stated....a sad indictment.
Surely a school can make it's paths safe? As inside school it will be fine. So only from the school gates to the entrance do the schools need to act....a caretaker used to do that job when I was younger, and as I have stated already,they were not closed due to snow when I was a kid....no doubt I wish they had of been.
How can I say a headteacher is talking bollocks? Here's the appropriate quote from the DCSF website.
If our school is open, but some pupils cannot get into school because of severe disruption to school buses, public transport or parents being unwilling to risk driving on icy roads, do we have to record those pupils as 'absent'?
If the school is open, then if some of a school's pupils whose home is not within walking distance of the school get to school by transport that is provided by the school or a local education authority, and that transport is not available because of adverse weather conditions, then if the school stays open, those pupils should be marked using code Y (Forced and Partial Closure). Code Y does not count as absence in the statistics.
All other children should be expected to attend and should be recorded as present/absent as normal. It is down to headteachers to make professional and common-sense judgements about marking children as authorized or unauthorized absences during very severe weather. If a school which remained opened is satisfied that the reason a child could not get to school was because of the adverse weather then that absence should be authorised; if a school judges the child could have made it to school, than that absence should be unauthorised.
The data do not enable the DCSF to alter the formula in any way that would isolate the absences due to inclement weather, or even for the days concerned. The only available data is for total numbers of absences for each term and particular days (or even weeks) cannot be isloated. This does mean that the absence percentage for a school that stays open may be higher than if it had closed if significant numbers of pupils are unable to attend. However, the main focus is on persistent absence (which is defined as missing 20 per cent or more of possible sessions). It is unlikely that persistent absence would be significantly affected by short periods of adverse weather. Moreover when looking at attendance, Ofsted inspectors look at trends over time. When looking at registers, if there appear to be specific days or periods of time when there is high absence inspectors will discuss with the school the reasons for it. Similarly the National Strategies will take account of such circumstances in their support and challenge work on persistent absence with LAs and schools.
So, I'm a layman and could find that guidance in under a minute using Google and common sense. If a headteacher can't do that I wouldn't want them teaching my kids.
The problem for the head teacher could well be that the children who are within walking distance will not turn up for school, we had some snow fall last week, the school remained open, all children are within walking distance, yet the school was almost empty. Those would have to marked as unauthorised.....
That is my thoughts
Thank you for your thoughts. Do they address the original point? I'm not persuaded. The subthread started because someone reported seeing a numpty headteacher on TV claiming schools were closing to meet Ofsted targets. The quote I've published, from the DCSF website for teachers, shows clearly that no such targets exist and that such a weather event would not lead to automatic problems for a school in terms of its attendance record.
I notice a little sub thread started about people should get paid if they can not get into work and that people should not take unnecessary risks to get to work etc so i ask you to consider this.
1)If a survey was done asking all employers in the country about who got to work and who did not, then it would show a massive per centage difference between those people who got paid and those who did not attending, is this down to loyalty or the fact that the people who do get paid think it is there right to have the time off and take the piss at there employers expense regardless of wether they can get in due to weather or they just fancy a day at the beach cos its sunny as has been shown in the past.
2) What if all the nurses and firemen etc took the opinion of why should i risk myself slipping and falling on the ice just to get to work, (i actually know of 1 nurse who worked a night shift and because the day staff were delayed worked on an extra 3 hours until they arrived) but wouldn`t we be in the shit if they shut up shop cos its too cold or snowy?!?!?
3) Just cos you have not seen a gritter does not mean it has not been there, these things do move you know and the grit only stays visible for a short length of time so just because you can not see it does not mean its not there, and again why is it too dangerous for some people to get to work yet they expect the council workers to be in "risking there lives" to grit roads and paths? last year i actually witnessed a gritting wagon go down an embankment and tip up because it skidded on the icy roads it was trying to grit.
4) As pointed out road grit is only at its optimum for upto 90 minutes after being spread, how many thousands of miles of roads are there in the Uk and how many gritters and drivers and loaders would be needed to grit all the roads all the time to stop people moaning that they have not seen a gritter in there area for the sake of maybe 4 weeks of weather every 2 years or so?
Alot of the comments regarding this are very selfcentered and the "why should i put myself out" aspect is very clear, yet the expectations of other people putting themselves out to make there lives easier are extremely high.
How many of these people who could not get to work because it was too dangerous then went out sledging,snow balling or just general messing about in this oh so dangerous weather!?!?
Its time people just got on with it and stopped moaning and stopped pointing the finger at other people because they have overly high and sometimes ridiculous expectations and are un willing to adjust there lives even slightly for a short period of time, as someone quoted the councils all had prior warning of the weather, well so did we, so get out of bed earlier and set off to work earlier, or stay with a work mate who lives nearer to work instead of expecting others to sort you out and make your life easier when you can not be arsed!!!
1)If a survey was done asking all employers in the country about who got to work and who did not, then it would show a massive per centage difference between those people who got paid and those who did not attending, is this down to loyalty or the fact that the people who do get paid think it is there right to have the time off and take the piss at there employers expense regardless of wether they can get in due to weather or they just fancy a day at the beach cos its sunny as has been shown in the past.
2) What if all the nurses and firemen etc took the opinion of why should i risk myself slipping and falling on the ice just to get to work, (i actually know of 1 nurse who worked a night shift and because the day staff were delayed worked on an extra 3 hours until they arrived) but wouldn`t we be in the shit if they shut up shop cos its too cold or snowy?!?!?
3) Just cos you have not seen a gritter does not mean it has not been there, these things do move you know and the grit only stays visible for a short length of time so just because you can not see it does not mean its not there, and again why is it too dangerous for some people to get to work yet they expect the council workers to be in "risking there lives" to grit roads and paths? last year i actually witnessed a gritting wagon go down an embankment and tip up because it skidded on the icy roads it was trying to grit.
4) As pointed out road grit is only at its optimum for upto 90 minutes after being spread, how many thousands of miles of roads are there in the Uk and how many gritters and drivers and loaders would be needed to grit all the roads all the time to stop people moaning that they have not seen a gritter in there area for the sake of maybe 4 weeks of weather every 2 years or so?
Alot of the comments regarding this are very selfcentered and the "why should i put myself out" aspect is very clear, yet the expectations of other people putting themselves out to make there lives easier are extremely high.
How many of these people who could not get to work because it was too dangerous then went out sledging,snow balling or just general messing about in this oh so dangerous weather!?!?
Its time people just got on with it and stopped moaning and stopped pointing the finger at other people because they have overly high and sometimes ridiculous expectations and are un willing to adjust there lives even slightly for a short period of time, as someone quoted the councils all had prior warning of the weather, well so did we, so get out of bed earlier and set off to work earlier, or stay with a work mate who lives nearer to work instead of expecting others to sort you out and make your life easier when you can not be arsed!!!
Quote by little gem
Why is that not right?
Sour grapes?
Green eyed monsters?
Unable to join in the snowball fight so campaign for everyone else's snowballs to be taken off them cos some aren't playing and *pouts* it isn't fair?!
So, short of growing wings and flying there... why should people have to risk their lives to get to work or while at work?
To me, what is not simply right, is the expectation/demands that someone should take unnecessary risks in order to get to/be in work. If the place is closed or you are forced into the situation that you can't get there, why should you not get paid?
Lets be honest here eh?
Are you telling me that everyone who did not go into work were risking their lives, and that was the reason they stayed in bed?....Come on.
There were many people that just used it as an excuse to take the day off work, and so why should they be paid for it?
Employers cannot pick and choose who they pay or not as the case maybe...can they?
We all know that yes whilst I agree some were not able to get in, and that some could have risked their lives but...a damn sight more just used it as an excuse to take a day off with full pay. I wonder if you was paying their wages you would have the attitude you do.
I got into work everyday...yes it was difficult on a couple of days but certainly not bad enough to sneak back into bed. But then why would I ? I am an employer of a small company struggling to make ends meet.
Yes we here would pay a member of staff if they did not come into work because of extreme weather but funnily enough they all turned up and one came over 30 miles away.
Some want it all ways, but reality is that is not always possible. An employer is NOT breaking the law in any way IF they decide NOT to pay someone who did not turn up for work, and quite right too.
If people up North addopted the same work attitudes over weather we do in the South, then most firms would be shut for weeks up there, but they just get on with it.
It should be up to the employer if they decide to pay people, but some will gripe if they do not get paid for their snowball throwing day off from work, as I have said...you cannot have it all ways.
If I was running my own business and reaping the rewards of my endeavours and that of my serfs I would be pretty foolish to forego the profits of a day of mine and their labour.
If I was earning cleaning toilets 30 miles away I would probably go back to bed.
Or as somebody once said " Men's ideas are the most direct emanations of their material state. "
If I was earning cleaning toilets 30 miles away I would probably go back to bed.
Or as somebody once said " Men's ideas are the most direct emanations of their material state. "
Sex God
So what are people supposed to do when the official advice is not to travel unless it is essential to do so.
I think that commerce and industry are robust enough to bare the costs.
I think that commerce and industry are robust enough to bare the costs.
Quote by awayman
snip
Thank you for your thoughts. Do they address the original point? I'm not persuaded. The subthread started because someone reported seeing a numpty headteacher on TV claiming schools were closing to meet Ofsted targets. The quote I've published, from the DCSF website for teachers, shows clearly that no such targets exist and that such a weather event would not lead to automatic problems for a school in terms of its attendance record.
If you go back and re-read my post, you will see that I said that the point had been put to the headmaster who agreed it was likely that it may be taken into consideration...along with other factors I'm sure. At no point did he say that schools were closing to meet Ofsted targets.
As for him being a numpty, the man was actually physically clearing the snow from the schoolyard so it would be safe for his pupils!
Quote by Max777
snip
Thank you for your thoughts. Do they address the original point? I'm not persuaded. The subthread started because someone reported seeing a numpty headteacher on TV claiming schools were closing to meet Ofsted targets. The quote I've published, from the DCSF website for teachers, shows clearly that no such targets exist and that such a weather event would not lead to automatic problems for a school in terms of its attendance record.
If you go back and re-read my post, you will see that I said that the point had been put to the headmaster who agreed it was likely that it may be taken into consideration...along with other factors I'm sure. At no point did he say that schools were closing to meet Ofsted targets.
As for him being a numpty, the man was actually physically clearing the snow from the schoolyard so it would be safe for his pupils!
Either I have misunderstood this whole diversion, or else someone reported a headteacher claiming that the need to meet Ofsted targets would be taken into consideration when deciding whether to close a school by some headteachers, but not this particular sanctimonious numpty.
DCSF say this is not so.
Nothing more to be said really.
As for his clearing the snow, good on him.
Quote by Lost
So what are people supposed to do when the official advice is not to travel unless it is essential to do so.
I think that commerce and industry are robust enough to bare the costs.
There are lots of businesses out there that are far from robust and struggling to stay afloat at the moment Lost and any extra cost is yet another burden.
To me, travelling to work IS essential travel but that's just my opinion.
Quote by Lost
So what are people supposed to do when the official advice is not to travel unless it is essential to do so.
I think that commerce and industry are robust enough to bare the costs.
So when is travel "essential" is it not essential that you get to work if you work in a supermarket say, but essential if you are a nurse as other people lives depend on you........ double standards?
Who actually decides what is "essential" oh i the lazy git who cant be arsed to go to work but can still make it to the bookies, or the shop or pub or go sledging.
Yes luckily enough there were plenty of people who we DEPEND on to get to work...GP's and nurses, and what about the carers for the elderly?
My Father relies on Rapid Responce to come to him twice a day, and they have turned up no matter what the weather. What if they wanted to be out playing snowballs? Would they just not bother with the elderly they look after? I think not somehow.
It matters not what someone earns...it IS essential for most people to work and to get their money every week. As I have said...yes some people could not have got to work but....there were plenty that could have done but chose not too, yet they demand they will get paid for it!
Never take anything for granted in this life, and I for one hope that the ones who did not bother purely because they could not be bothered, don't get paid.
Thank God those people are not nurses or carers, otherwise we would have had a lot more elderly people dead, and not just the two that were found recently eh?
My Father relies on Rapid Responce to come to him twice a day, and they have turned up no matter what the weather. What if they wanted to be out playing snowballs? Would they just not bother with the elderly they look after? I think not somehow.
It matters not what someone earns...it IS essential for most people to work and to get their money every week. As I have said...yes some people could not have got to work but....there were plenty that could have done but chose not too, yet they demand they will get paid for it!
Never take anything for granted in this life, and I for one hope that the ones who did not bother purely because they could not be bothered, don't get paid.
Thank God those people are not nurses or carers, otherwise we would have had a lot more elderly people dead, and not just the two that were found recently eh?
