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Of coarse no one country can claim to have won the war by there selves
You seem to have forgotten the Americans....
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Student Protests
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Sex God
I have two nieces one recently graduated and one recently started university..had I seen pictures of either of them at these demonstrations they would have received hearty congratulations and an extra christmas present, the reason? When you a governed by a group of people whose only interest is in what they own or can buy the only way of any protest to get their attention is to attack those things....do I support the actions of the protestors in attacking the property of our leaders?..you bet you arse I do and had I been in the area I'd have bought the petrol to do a proper job
Sex God
Welcome back Staggers :bounce:
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I have two nieces one recently graduated and one recently started university..had I seen pictures of either of them at these demonstrations they would have received hearty congratulations and an extra christmas present, the reason? When you a governed by a group of people whose only interest is in what they own or can buy the only way of any protest to get their attention is to attack those things....do I support the actions of the protestors in attacking the property of our leaders?..you bet you arse I do and had I been in the area I'd have bought the petrol to do a proper job
No wonder the fucking country is in a mess....
Sex God
Quote by GnV
I have two nieces one recently graduated and one recently started university..had I seen pictures of either of them at these demonstrations they would have received hearty congratulations and an extra christmas present, the reason? When you a governed by a group of people whose only interest is in what they own or can buy the only way of any protest to get their attention is to attack those things....do I support the actions of the protestors in attacking the property of our leaders?..you bet you arse I do and had I been in the area I'd have bought the petrol to do a proper job
No wonder the fucking country is in a mess....
France? or somewhere you don't live?
Sex God
I do believe absolutely in democracy....I believe that in a democracy it is everyones right to have their voice heard and not just paid lip service to once every four or five years,I believe that in a democracy if a large number of people have and raise concerns that the incumbent government should address those concerns and not rush to legislate,I believe that in a democracy government is the servant of the people......I wish sometimes that I lived in a democracy.
The real tragedy of this whole thing is that pre-election the lib-dems were espousing a perfectly good workable policy on funding further education (a graduate tax)but since the election appear to have abandoned all policy and principle in favour of wielding power for it's own sake
The real tragedy of this whole thing is that pre-election the lib-dems were espousing a perfectly good workable policy on funding further education (a graduate tax)but since the election appear to have abandoned all policy and principle in favour of wielding power for it's own sake
Sex God
It is in any democracy the governments duty to listen to the people,it is the peoples duty to police the government.....when the desire of government clashes with the needs of the people,the people are paramount and should take whatever action is required to bring the government into line.
These policies will reduce the ability of many to access further education,it is in the interests of the people of this country to have a broad spectrum of people attending colleges of further education and universities, it is also in the interests of democracy itself to have an educated electorate....the governments position on funding further education is short-sighted ,elitist and anti-democratic..any action taken against any government espousing such policies is justified to serve the interests of the people of this country.
A less trite answer to gnv....
I had thought this country was in such a state because of the rampant self interest of it's politicians and it's financial organisations...but perhaps it is because some of us still take a slightly wider view of what a society is and how it should act...what would I know I'm just a poor working man who likes the idea of being able to see a doctor or dentist occasionally
Well slightly less trite
These policies will reduce the ability of many to access further education,it is in the interests of the people of this country to have a broad spectrum of people attending colleges of further education and universities, it is also in the interests of democracy itself to have an educated electorate....the governments position on funding further education is short-sighted ,elitist and anti-democratic..any action taken against any government espousing such policies is justified to serve the interests of the people of this country.
A less trite answer to gnv....
I had thought this country was in such a state because of the rampant self interest of it's politicians and it's financial organisations...but perhaps it is because some of us still take a slightly wider view of what a society is and how it should act...what would I know I'm just a poor working man who likes the idea of being able to see a doctor or dentist occasionally
Well slightly less trite
Quote by Ben_welshminx
If it weren't for the free degrees in wales our daughter wouldnt be able to afford to go to university. That's wrong.
I totally disagree Ben
I worked my way through university with a family of 5 and paid my fees. I do not believe for one moment that an able bodied young lady could not, with the system that is in place now, pay her way through university. They may come out with debt but they can get there. To say that she wouldn't be able to get an education is wrong. People have work for their education, not be handed it on a plate.
If she is not able bodied then there are support systems that she can have access to.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Ben_welshminx
Personal indebtedness isnt something I would willingly force onto the young or any other bugger for that matter.
Not a problem, they can do an apprenticeship instead or retail or administration or labouring or a multitude of other jobs that they wish to do and not get into debt
Dave_Notts
Quote by Ben_welshminx
Sadly such jobs are a bit tricky to come by round here. I wish that they werent.
I was born and grew up around your area Ben. I have never claimed unemployment benefit. I have had some shitty jobs but I have gone out and worked. My friends from school still live up there and they work and have jobs. Not well paid but they work.
I was only talking to my daughter this morning about this. When she was young I did have an old Ford Fiesta that I used to get to work. But sometimes money was so tight I couldn't afford petrol to put in it. So I had to get up an hour earlier and walk into work. It was a very prestigious job, I swept the town centre with a broom and cart.
Dave_Notts
Sex God
What I would like to see is that entrance onto any further or higher education course was based solely on ability. That having a rich daddy or being an overseas student on a student visa was irrelavent if the person applying did not have a) appropriate prior education attainment b) the willingness to commit to the work involved c) sufficient grasp of whichever language the course is taught in to manage the subject independently. This applies to UK student studying overseas too.
We had people on my engineering course with minimal English. They couldn't cope with every day life, let alone grasp the details of Thermodynamics or Electrical powerplants. They were a complete waste of resources and were only allowed on as a cash-crop for the Uni. Every one of them failed miserably.
Once we have chucked off the wasters, the dossers and the 'daddy paid for me to have this degree' there would be a better quality of graduate coming out the other end.
Personally I am comfortable with some of my taxes going to support 'proper' students willing to make the most of the educational opportunities offered at Uni. But seeing students who, regardless of the protests, waste the course they are on by pissing it away in the pubs or playing computer games makes me angry.
We had people on my engineering course with minimal English. They couldn't cope with every day life, let alone grasp the details of Thermodynamics or Electrical powerplants. They were a complete waste of resources and were only allowed on as a cash-crop for the Uni. Every one of them failed miserably.
Once we have chucked off the wasters, the dossers and the 'daddy paid for me to have this degree' there would be a better quality of graduate coming out the other end.
Personally I am comfortable with some of my taxes going to support 'proper' students willing to make the most of the educational opportunities offered at Uni. But seeing students who, regardless of the protests, waste the course they are on by pissing it away in the pubs or playing computer games makes me angry.
I still don't know where all these jobs are gonna come from Dave. We got about 2500 people unemployed based on the JSA figures, 10,000 students wont help that very much.
Yeah Foxy I think its way too easy to get into universities too. I also think that once you get in its way too easy to pass. That said, the current selection processes are already ridiculously favoured towards kids from certain educational backgrounds. Not sure how we solve that one.
Im not bitter about anybody free-loading. I do think a first rate education for first rate minds should not require substantial financial backing or personal debt.
Yeah Foxy I think its way too easy to get into universities too. I also think that once you get in its way too easy to pass. That said, the current selection processes are already ridiculously favoured towards kids from certain educational backgrounds. Not sure how we solve that one.
Im not bitter about anybody free-loading. I do think a first rate education for first rate minds should not require substantial financial backing or personal debt.
Sex God
Quote by flower411
I happen to disagree with you ....I think it is the countries best interests for people going into higher education to be motivated by the desire to be educated not to freeload their way through a couple of years at the tax payers expense !!
Therefore I should be taking up arms against you when you take to the streets with your petrol bombs ....
I am at a complete loss to understand how you feel that paying for a bunch of fuckin wasters to attend colleges is in any way producing an educated electorate !
I don't know the students you do I don't know the ex-students you do.....I don't know anyone who goes or has been to university who have wasted the experience,all that I know have left with a degree all are now gainfully employed.I never went to uni. when I was 18-21 I made most if not all of the students I knew/know look like lightweights,enjoying your life should not be a bar to university attendance.I'm sorry you seem to have such a bee in your bonnet about our youth
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I do believe absolutely in democracy.... I believe that in a democracy it is everyones right to have their voice heard and not just paid lip service to once every four or five years, I believe that in a democracy if a large number of people have and raise concerns that the incumbent government should address those concerns and not rush to legislate,I believe that in a democracy government is the servant of the people......I wish sometimes that I lived in a democracy.
The real tragedy of this whole thing is that pre-election the lib-dems were espousing a perfectly good workable policy on funding further education (a graduate tax)but since the election appear to have abandoned all policy and principle in favour of wielding power for it's own sake
Britain enjoys a Parliamentary Democracy; that is, the fortunes of Government are decided at the ballot box and not by mob rule on the streets. You do live in a democracy, you just don't recognise it or appreciate it's benefits.
As for the LibDems, they did not win the election so were not able to govern in the way they would have liked. Nor the Conservatives come to that. I do understand the point though that the LibDems have been able to modify the more extreme aspirations of the ConDem alliance and that can only be a good thing. There are now two sets of reformers in the British Government, the LibDems in Government and the House of Lords.
Brown tried this with the GOATS and failed miserably. The British people - whether intended or not - succeeded and I believe Britain will be all the better for it in the long run.
Sex God
*SNIP*
So do I, I believe in the democratic right of people employed in the Millbank Tower to go about there daily lawful business without being terrified or the democratic right not to have ones car and person attacked. In the democratic right not to have police property destroyed, not to have buildings vandalised, not to have national monuments vandalised, not to have fires started in the streets, not to have bus shelters and ticket machines destroyed, not to have a fire extinguisher fall on your head, and not to have a thug climbing allover a monument for the remembrance of those who gave there live defending the freedom we now enjoy. Most of all I believe in the democratic right for peacefulprotest.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I do believe absolutely in democracy....
So do I, I believe in the democratic right of people employed in the Millbank Tower to go about there daily lawful business without being terrified or the democratic right not to have ones car and person attacked. In the democratic right not to have police property destroyed, not to have buildings vandalised, not to have national monuments vandalised, not to have fires started in the streets, not to have bus shelters and ticket machines destroyed, not to have a fire extinguisher fall on your head, and not to have a thug climbing allover a monument for the remembrance of those who gave there live defending the freedom we now enjoy. Most of all I believe in the democratic right for peacefulprotest.
Sex God
Our democracy is a sham...we have three parties all in their own way representing the interests of the city..and by extension themselves...Do I live in a democracy GNV? No.I live in a country where the interests of a small moneyed minority are put before the interests of the nation as a whole,is that democracy ?Whole swathes of this country from the lower middle classes down are effectively disenfranchised by our system,there is no-one to represent their interests,we are governed by a public school oxbridge clique of political philosophy graduates whose knowledge of of a wider society boils down to the concept that there may possibly be one,we are informed by the same clique through our media....these policies are anti-democratic because they narrow the social field of university attendees therefore reducing even further the chance of the lower middle and working classes gaining entry into this elite.
What I'm saying Flower is not that I believe in democracy until the wrong side wins,but that for the vast majority of people in this country there is no right the 'Riots'?are they wrong? Yes, because their aims are too narrow,they are however a step in the right you accused me earlier of being why this country is in such a state you're wrong next time you need the answer to that question look in the mirror, we are where we are because our political classes have for too long been allowed to get away with lining the pockets of themselves and their political allies,our political system is broken and there is within Westminster no will to fix only solution for this country is for the people to impose their will upon the government (of whatever party)they will not listen,they will not change,the ballot box will offer no solution they pick the names on the what is the answer? The will of the people is paramount,if the government won't listen the only answer is to shout so loud they have no we need riots? No, we need revolution.
What I'm saying Flower is not that I believe in democracy until the wrong side wins,but that for the vast majority of people in this country there is no right the 'Riots'?are they wrong? Yes, because their aims are too narrow,they are however a step in the right you accused me earlier of being why this country is in such a state you're wrong next time you need the answer to that question look in the mirror, we are where we are because our political classes have for too long been allowed to get away with lining the pockets of themselves and their political allies,our political system is broken and there is within Westminster no will to fix only solution for this country is for the people to impose their will upon the government (of whatever party)they will not listen,they will not change,the ballot box will offer no solution they pick the names on the what is the answer? The will of the people is paramount,if the government won't listen the only answer is to shout so loud they have no we need riots? No, we need revolution.
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Our democracy is a sham...we have three parties all in their own way representing the interests of the city..and by extension themselves...Do I live in a democracy GNV? No.I live in a country where the interests of a small moneyed minority are put before the interests of the nation as a whole,is that democracy ?Whole swathes of this country from the lower middle classes down are effectively disenfranchised by our system,there is no-one to represent their interests,we are governed by a public school oxbridge clique of political philosophy graduates whose knowledge of of a wider society boils down to the concept that there may possibly be one,we are informed by the same clique through our media....these policies are anti-democratic because they narrow the social field of university attendees therefore reducing even further the chance of the lower middle and working classes gaining entry into this elite.
What I'm saying Flower is not that I believe in democracy until the wrong side wins,but that for the vast majority of people in this country there is no right the 'Riots'?are they wrong? Yes, because their aims are too narrow,they are however a step in the right you accused me earlier of being why this country is in such a state you're wrong next time you need the answer to that question look in the mirror, we are where we are because our political classes have for too long been allowed to get away with lining the pockets of themselves and their political allies,our political system is broken and there is within Westminster no will to fix only solution for this country is for the people to impose their will upon the government (of whatever party)they will not listen,they will not change,the ballot box will offer no solution they pick the names on the what is the answer? The will of the people is paramount,if the government won't listen the only answer is to shout so loud they have no we need riots? No, we need revolution.
I look in the mirror every morning Staggs and I like what I see. If I want to change something, I just go ahead and do it within the rule of law and a clear conscience. No need for petrol bombs here; just a will and a way
If so many people feel disenfranchised about the political mix, they can do something about it in a Parliamentary democracy. The can stand for Parliament. So many do without the backing of the big parties and their penchant for the bankers. They can (and do) influence the policy that is later handed down to the "serfs". Shame that there aren't more who stand as independents with a will to make a change.
There is little point in doing nothing about it at the time when something should and can be done about it and then later complaining that the Parliamentary system is fixed.
Why should a Government listen after they are in power? They have a mandate to Govern and their focus is on what they believe is right.
Sex God
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
Our democracy is a sham...we have three parties all in their own way representing the interests of the city..and by extension themselves...Do I live in a democracy GNV? No.I live in a country where the interests of a small moneyed minority are put before the interests of the nation as a whole,is that democracy ?Whole swathes of this country from the lower middle classes down are effectively disenfranchised by our system,there is no-one to represent their interests,we are governed by a public school oxbridge clique of political philosophy graduates whose knowledge of of a wider society boils down to the concept that there may possibly be one,we are informed by the same clique through our media....these policies are anti-democratic because they narrow the social field of university attendees therefore reducing even further the chance of the lower middle and working classes gaining entry into this elite.
What I'm saying Flower is not that I believe in democracy until the wrong side wins,but that for the vast majority of people in this country there is no right the 'Riots'?are they wrong? Yes, because their aims are too narrow,they are however a step in the right you accused me earlier of being why this country is in such a state you're wrong next time you need the answer to that question look in the mirror, we are where we are because our political classes have for too long been allowed to get away with lining the pockets of themselves and their political allies,our political system is broken and there is within Westminster no will to fix only solution for this country is for the people to impose their will upon the government (of whatever party)they will not listen,they will not change,the ballot box will offer no solution they pick the names on the what is the answer? The will of the people is paramount,if the government won't listen the only answer is to shout so loud they have no we need riots? No, we need revolution.
A revolution?
Sex God
Quote by GnV
If I want to change something, I just go ahead and do it within the rule of law and a clear conscience. No need for petrol bombs here; just a will and a way
This from a man who lives in France?The French as you well know have a long and successful history of violent protest,it is a shame we do not more often follow their lead,we would I believe be living in a less elitist and divided society if we did.
And what I wonder is this way that demands it be followed by a wink
Quote by GnV
If so many people feel disenfranchised about the political mix, they can do something about it in a Parliamentary democracy.
I doubt that many feel disenfranchised, this does not change the fact that they are, it is just another symptom of our broken and apathetic political system. As I said the governments policies are anti-democratic......an educated population is more likely to be a politicised population,keep the masses ignorant keep them happy with their celebreties and X-factor and they remain pliant and apathetic....tyranny 101.
Quote by GnV
The can stand for Parliament. So many do without the backing of the big parties and their penchant for the bankers. They can (and do) influence the policy that is later handed down to the "serfs". Shame that there aren't more who stand as independents with a will to make a change.
Perhaps not so many then.....28 labelled 'others' 10 of whom at least are backed by a party machine of some type...the idea that independent M.P.s are a shining example of the inclusiveness of our democracy is ridiculous,the idea that the average man has any chance against the massive party machines they will be opposed by is not really worth commenting on.
Quote by GnV
There is little point in doing nothing about it at the time when something should and can be done about it and then later complaining that the Parliamentary system is fixed.
What would you have me do ? Vote for someone who doesn't represent me or anything I believe in then accept that I had my chance? That's not democracy. Or perhaps I should throw away what little money I have in some vain attempt to get elected and have my voice heard, what happens when we all follow your advice ? 24 million candidates with 1 vote each....Our political classes are and will remain deaf and blind to the needs of the masses until we make them listen. The ballot box has not,does not,and will not change this, peaceful protest has not ,does not and will not change this. When confronted with an ivory tower the answer is to remove it,they are it seemed triple glazed and sound proofed no-one inside will hear you cries, they've even turned off the intercom.
Quote by GnV
Why should a Government listen after they are in power?
There you go you've said it. Do you know an answer? I do
Sex God
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
If I want to change something, I just go ahead and do it within the rule of law and a clear conscience. No need for petrol bombs here; just a will and a way
This from a man who lives in France?The French as you well know have a long and successful history of violent protest,it is a shame we do not more often follow their lead,we would I believe be living in a less elitist and divided society if we did.
And what I wonder is this way that demands it be followed by a wink
Ah, there are a few winkers here :wink:
Sex God
Quote by GnV
Revolution is change Blue. Not cut the heads off, as in French Revolution and English Civil War. Think more along the lines of Agricultural and Industrial Revolution
Dave_Notts
and a 3rd world Junta where the kalashnikov rules...
There are many forms revolution can take...economic,social,political,military,what form any revolution takes is decided not by the revolutionary but by their opposition
Quote by Staggerlee_BB
This from a man who lives in France?The French as you well know have a long and successful history of violent protest,it is a shame we do not more often follow their lead,we would I believe be living in a less elitist and divided society if we did.
And what I wonder is this way that demands it be followed by a wink
Take the wink as you will Staggs.. M. Sarkozy, before he became President, said famously, "Love France or leave her". I love France and that may also explain why I left Britain. France is a republic, and there is a teeny bit of a difference between the two States. As for violence, I haven't personally encountered any here but I've seen a bit on the telly round Paris and Grenoble which is met with strong opposition by the security forces. That violence is usually instigated by the people who don't love France and should leave - like the Roma (a different argument, of course).
What you see from the Farmers and similar is all about protectionism which Britain could learn more about. They make their protest, slow the traffic for a few hours, have lunch then go home. The Gendarme/CRS have no need to move in hard because the protest follows a very closely agreed pattern which allows the French to make their protest by law. Step outside it and you are more likely to be beaten by the legal protesters than the gardiens of Law and 0rder. It works very well.
Human Rights? Only if it is passed by the French legislature! No dictats from Europe here!!
Quote by Staggs
Why should a Government listen after they are in power?
There you go you've said it. Do you know an answer? I do
Prey tell...
Sex God
Quote by GnV
France is a republic, and there is a teeny bit of a difference between the two States.
That I would suggest is a huge gulf...and gives the French people a sense of empowerment we will never have while we remain a monarchy.
Quote by GnV
What you see from the Farmers and similar is all about protectionism which Britain could learn more about. They make their protest, slow the traffic for a few hours, have lunch then go home. The Gendarme/CRS have no need to move in hard because the protest follows a very closely agreed pattern which allows the French to make their protest by law. Step outside it and you are more likely to be beaten by the legal protesters than the gardiens of Law and 0rder. It works very well.
Regardless of the aims of the protests the means are somewhat different to the accepted norm in this country....and I would suggest frequently more successful
Quote by GnV
Why should a Government listen after they are in power?
There you go you've said it. Do you know an answer? I do
Prey tell...
I can only say that I do not pay poll tax
