The Countryside Matters

18 Oct 2010

I would like to use this thread, if I may, to bring interesting current affair storeys, that are affecting the countryside and rural life to the attention of SH posters for debate and discussion.
Starting with this story below
The defence of shooting is of benefit to the community at large, says judge, and I agree!

24 Oct 2010

Would you like to see our milk production from cows who never see daylight?
I do not like this idea at all

24 Oct 2010

I'm with you on this one Blue........I don't eat veal for similar reasons

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Would you like to our milk production from cows who never see daylight?
I do not like this idea at all

That's because you are ill-informed blue. Cows who never see daylight? Utter cobblers in this case, but why let the facts get in the way of a bit of sensationalism.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Jewlnmart
Would you like to our milk production from cows who never see daylight?
I do not like this idea at all

That's because you are ill-informed blue. Cows who never see daylight? Utter cobblers in this case, but why let the facts get in the way of a bit of sensationalism.
These cows will live in barns, they will not feel the sun or the rain on there back's.
I, for one, will vote with my money, I shall not buy milk from intensively reared cattle. I shall buy milk from cows who have roamed the Fields during the day and eaten fresh Green grass for that time. :thumbup:

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
These cows will live in barns, they will not feel the sun or the rain on there back's.
I, for one, will vote with my money, I shall not buy milk from intensively reared cattle. I shall buy milk from cows who have roamed the Fields during the day and eaten fresh Green grass for that time. :thumbup:

Even in Winter Blue? I'll reply more fully in the morning when I'm not so full of ale.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Jewlnmart

These cows will live in barns, they will not feel the sun or the rain on there back's.
I, for one, will vote with my money, I shall not buy milk from intensively reared cattle. I shall buy milk from cows who have roamed the Fields during the day and eaten fresh Green grass for that time. :thumbup:

Even in Winter Blue? I'll reply more fully in the morning when I'm not so full of ale.
Cows graze, so they should be outdoors, that is just how I like to see them, except for in extreme weather conditions. In some extremes of winter I agree farmers will shelter there cows to prevent damage to there nipples, udders and help maximise milk yields as these can also suffer in cold periods. Possibly some large farms may already shelter there cows for longer winter periods to maximise milk yields.
I am concerned with methods of intensive farming. I know I'm old fashioned, slow to embrace change. But change is not always for the best, or have the animals or our best interest at heart.
I will look forward hearing your views and points when the ales wears off lol

24 Oct 2010

IF people knew how most of our food was produced, they would probably be sick.
We all or most of us, tend to just turn a blind eye to it all, as we pick the meat up in the supermarket.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
IF people knew how most of our food was produced, they would probably be sick.
We all or most of us, tend to just turn a blind eye to it all, as we pick the meat up in the supermarket.

And for that kebab on the drunken journey back home????

24 Oct 2010

Quote by essex34m
IF people knew how most of our food was produced, they would probably be sick.
We all or most of us, tend to just turn a blind eye to it all, as we pick the meat up in the supermarket.

And for that kebab on the drunken journey back home????
Blimey Essex..............Do people actually eat that shite, with flys eggs all over it? :twisted:

24 Oct 2010

Quote by flower411
I`m interested to know where people draw the line.
Meat is produced for supermarkets by keeping costs to the minimum ...same with eggs ..
It always facinates me when people say that they`ll eat lamb but won`t eat veal...
They`ll eat pate but not foie gras ....
Bacon is a human right ....but suckling pig ??
How much do people really know about how their supermarket food is produced ??
And would they stop buying it if they found out ?

Not everyone buys their meat etc from supermarkets. Luckily, there are still some good quality butchers around that source local produce, as there are restaurants.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
Blimey Essex..............Do people actually eat that shite, with flys eggs all over it? :twisted:

I have no idea what part of Kent you live, whether it is city, town or rural, but if you are ever in a busy area on a Saturday night, and there is a kebab shop, just watch how busy it gets.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Max777
I`m interested to know where people draw the line.
Meat is produced for supermarkets by keeping costs to the minimum ...same with eggs ..
It always facinates me when people say that they`ll eat lamb but won`t eat veal...
They`ll eat pate but not foie gras ....
Bacon is a human right ....but suckling pig ??
How much do people really know about how their supermarket food is produced ??
And would they stop buying it if they found out ?

Not everyone buys their meat etc from supermarkets.Luckily, there are still some good quality butchers around that source local produce, as there are restaurants.
True Max and they all buy their meat cheap from the local supermarket. :lol:
I bet there is some truth in that too somewhere.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
I`m interested to know where people draw the line.
Meat is produced for supermarkets by keeping costs to the minimum ...same with eggs ..
It always facinates me when people say that they`ll eat lamb but won`t eat veal...
They`ll eat pate but not foie gras ....
Bacon is a human right ....but suckling pig ??
How much do people really know about how their supermarket food is produced ??
And would they stop buying it if they found out ?

Not everyone buys their meat etc from supermarkets.Luckily, there are still some good quality butchers around that source local produce, as there are restaurants.
True Max and they all buy their meat cheap from the local supermarket. :lol:
I bet there is some truth in that too somewhere.
Maybe we are just lucky here then, as the butchers and restaurants are only too happy to tell where their produce is sourced from. It's probably one of the reasons why they survive.

24 Oct 2010

Quote by Max777
I`m interested to know where people draw the line.
Meat is produced for supermarkets by keeping costs to the minimum ...same with eggs ..
It always facinates me when people say that they`ll eat lamb but won`t eat veal...
They`ll eat pate but not foie gras ....
Bacon is a human right ....but suckling pig ??
How much do people really know about how their supermarket food is produced ??
And would they stop buying it if they found out ?

Not everyone buys their meat etc from supermarkets.Luckily, there are still some good quality butchers around that source local produce, as there are restaurants.
True Max and they all buy their meat cheap from the local supermarket. :lol:
I bet there is some truth in that too somewhere.
Maybe we are just lucky here then, as the butchers and restaurants are only too happy to tell where their produce is sourced from. It's probably one of the reasons why they survive.
Our local butcher is the same, we always support him, it is the same family butcher both my parents and grandparents used when I was much younger

24 Oct 2010

Quote by flower411
I`m interested to know where people draw the line.
Meat is produced for supermarkets by keeping costs to the minimum ...same with eggs ..
It always facinates me when people say that they`ll eat lamb but won`t eat veal...
They`ll eat pate but not foie gras ....
Bacon is a human right ....but suckling pig ??
How much do people really know about how their supermarket food is produced ??
And would they stop buying it if they found out ?

It is a good point you make flower
I like to see the animal that I eat has had a good standard of care and the best life that is reasonably possible. This is a personal call everybody must make for them selves.

24 Oct 2010

This country has some of the highest animal welfare standards in the world. Granted our lowest is pretty bad (in our eyes), but it isn't nearly as bad as the typical (or even the best) in many countries.
What this country must do is make sure that every meat and animal product that comes into this country has been produced to the best standards our own farmers are expected to work to.
That way we will cut the amount of crappy, un-traceable muck that comes in undercutting our own farmers. Of course their stuff is cheap - they don't have to follow the same rules we are forcing on our oen people.

25 Oct 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Would you like to our milk production from cows who never see daylight?
I do not like this idea at all

That's because you are ill-informed blue. Cows who never see daylight? Utter cobblers in this case, but why let the facts get in the way of a bit of sensationalism.
These cows will live in barns, they will not feel the sun or the rain on there back's.
I, for one, will vote with my money, I shall not buy milk from intensively reared cattle. I shall buy milk from cows who have roamed the Fields during the day and eaten fresh Green grass for that time. :thumbup:
I've been following the plans for this 'super-dairy' for a few months now. From what I understand the cattle will be housed in large opensided buildings with open feeding and loafing areas. Plenty of natural light, fresh air and freedom to move around and exhibit social behaviour. In fact this type of system has been used for decades in this country and the only thing that makes this one any different is the sheer scale of the operation. Working there wouldn't appeal to me as it will be each man doing a specific job, but as someone who has worked as a herdsman for 25 years I'd be curious to see the whole operation in action.
I can't see welfare to be an issue, especially given the scrutiny they'll be subjected to if it ever gets built. They'll also have their own vets available. A common misconception about housed cattle is lameness, but having our herd split into 2 groups- one housed, one summer grazing- there is no real difference in the rate of lameness suffered by either group, but each group has different issues. The housed cattle get digital dermatitis and solar ulcers, the outside group suffer sole punctures and related infection, white line lesions and under-run soles. As with all dairy farms, clean yards and routine foot trimming/foot bathing will minimise the incidence of lameness. With 8,000 cows they'll almost certanly employ a team of trained foot trimmers.
For me the big issue surrounding this plan is the potential environmental impact. That number of cows will produce 350,000 litres+ of slurry each day. I know the plans include a digester power plant to generate electricity from this waste, but it's still a lot to dispose of. I would speculate they're going to grow around 1,500 acres of Maize for forage which brings with it problems with run off. At a local level there's going to be 5 or 6 articulated milk tankers collecting each day and numerous feed deliveries each week too.

25 Oct 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
Cows graze, so they should be outdoors, that is just how I like to see them, except for in extreme weather conditions. In some extremes of winter I agree farmers will shelter there cows to prevent damage to there nipples, udders and help maximise milk yields as these can also suffer in cold periods. Possibly some large farms may already shelter there cows for longer winter periods to maximise milk yields.
I am concerned with methods of intensive farming. I know I'm old fashioned, slow to embrace change. But change is not always for the best, or have the animals or our best interest at heart.
I will look forward hearing your views and points when the ales wears off

Blue,
Having work for 2 winters on an out-wintered herd, I can honestly say it has to be the lowest standard of animal welfare and hygeine in dairy farming. The cows are covered in mud and suffer badly from lameness. The grass stops growing, so you still have to feed them and provide them with clean straw to lie on. If you're feeding and bedding anyway it makes sense to do it inside. Seriously in this instance change really is for the best and in the best interests of the animal. There's no sadder sight than a cow stood at a gate on a cold, wet day looking for some shelter.

25 Oct 2010

some very good points made here.
its been an interesting read.

25 Oct 2010

Quote by Jewlnmart

Cows graze, so they should be outdoors, that is just how I like to see them, except for in extreme weather conditions. In some extremes of winter I agree farmers will shelter there cows to prevent damage to there nipples, udders and help maximise milk yields as these can also suffer in cold periods. Possibly some large farms may already shelter there cows for longer winter periods to maximise milk yields.
I am concerned with methods of intensive farming. I know I'm old fashioned, slow to embrace change. But change is not always for the best, or have the animals or our best interest at heart.
I will look forward hearing your views and points when the ales wears off

Blue,
Having work for 2 winters on an out-wintered herd, I can honestly say it has to be the lowest standard of animal welfare and hygeine in dairy farming. The cows are covered in mud and suffer badly from lameness. The grass stops growing, so you still have to feed them and provide them with clean straw to lie on. If you're feeding and bedding anyway it makes sense to do it inside. Seriously in this instance change really is for the best and in the best interests of the animal. There's no sadder sight than a cow stood at a gate on a cold, wet day looking for some shelter.
I except your argument for the wintering, but can not agree this change will be for the best at all, come the summer, I wish to see the cows back in a field where they are closer to where they are meant to be, not in sheds.
Having looked at the American model, it does seam to be very well organised, clean and happy cattle. But the barns/sheds are getting larger and larger and the dangers of environmental impact worsen. In some areas of the U/S some local people have complained of illness from the gasses given off from the slurry.
I like to see cattle in their natural environment. As I stated earlyer, I shall vote with my money.

26 Oct 2010

This one should be a bit of fun to debate, very emotive subject. I shall be attempting as best I can to defend the actions taken by the so called trophy hunters..... wink

26 Oct 2010

Quote by Bluefish2009
This one should be a bit of fun to debate, very emotive subject. I shall be attempting as best I can to defend the actions taken by the so called trophy hunters.....

From the stories you have posted, it is a legal activity and no laws have been broken. Is it on a legal or moral debate you want on this? The legal debate will be short lived.
Dave_Notts

26 Oct 2010

Quote by Dave__Notts
This one should be a bit of fun to debate, very emotive subject. I shall be attempting as best I can to defend the actions taken by the so called trophy hunters.....

From the stories you have posted, it is a legal activity and no laws have been broken. Is it on a legal or moral debate you want on this? The legal debate will be short lived.
Dave_Notts
Sorry never made that very clear, would have to be moral level Dave, as you say, no laws have been broken. That is of coarse, if anyone wishes to debate it at all, it may not be of much interest to many here but thought I would give it a bash anyhow.

26 Oct 2010

Sorry Blue but I can't see how there can be any moral justification in the killing of a magnificent animal just so someone can claim it as a trophy dunno

26 Oct 2010

Quote by Max777
Sorry Blue but I can't see how there can be any moral justification in the killing of a magnificent animal just so someone can claim it as a trophy

No need for apology, I do fully understand your sentiment. Even I feel a little uneasy with this particular one. My biggest problem is the timing.
But before I go there....
First thing we need to understand is that these herds are managed. Culling is required for the health of the herd, to maintain environmental balance. Too many dear and they damage the surrounding environment through over eating, this is not just bad for the dear but also for other wildlife trying to compete.
The cull falls into two category's, firstly the old and sick need to be weeded out for obvious reasons. The second part of the cull is used to raise funds. The management of the herd obviously cost's money, one method used to help pay for this is the selling of this kind of shoot. There will almost certainly be other reasons for the shooting of this stag, possibly to allow another stag an unrestricted run at the hinds, remember these are small herds in a small area and the gene pool has to be kept fresh. So the result is the dear gets culled, the venison goes into the food chain, the land owners get paid for the days shooting which goes towards the cost of managing the herd, and the hunter gets hid trophy to hang on the wall. Every one is happy lol

However, as stated above, the problem here, for me, is timing, the meat is not so good during the rut due to the hormones it is tainted! Even this was probably pre-planned though, as during the rut the stags are far more assessable and will not be wondering far from the hinds.

26 Oct 2010

I have no knowledge of deer management whatsoever, so can't disagree with anything that you say Blue but I heard a former deer manager talking on Radio 5 this morning and he certainly opposed the killing. I'm quoting him from BBC's website
Former deer manager Peter Donnelly said stalkers came from many walks of life and included business people and farmers.
And he was not surprised the stag had been shot.
"Some people are avaricious and if it's a super quality deer that's all they see," he said.
"The deer was in his prime, he was heading to Exmoor to rut and he should be allowed to carry out his natural functions for another year.
"Now he is no longer there to pass on his genes."
He suspected the Emperor had been culled as a trophy because its age - estimated at 10-12 years - meant its meat would have been relatively tough.
He said: "They have to be harvested or culled, but normally you take out the poorest quality or the oldest

26 Oct 2010

Quote by Max777
I have no knowledge of deer management whatsoever, so can't disagree with anything that you say Blue but I heard a former deer manager talking on Radio 5 this morning and he certainly opposed the killing. I'm quoting him from BBC's website
Former deer manager Peter Donnelly said stalkers came from many walks of life and included business people and farmers.
And he was not surprised the stag had been shot.
"Some people are avaricious and if it's a super quality deer that's all they see," he said.
"The deer was in his prime, he was heading to Exmoor to rut and he should be allowed to carry out his natural functions for another year.
"Now he is no longer there to pass on his genes."
He suspected the Emperor had been culled as a trophy because its age - estimated at 10-12 years - meant its meat would have been relatively tough.
He said: "They have to be harvested or culled, but normally you take out the poorest quality or the oldest

I shall not disagree with most of that, but like most things in any walk of life, experts in any Field will disagree.
Yes he was culled as a trophy, but there could well be other reasons as I have mentioned.
Healthy stags are often culled as mentioned above.
As he will have been sexualy active since the age of 8 years, he will have already passed on his genes.

26 Oct 2010

Totally agree about experts disagreeing. On radio this morning there was a discussion about the economy and the point was made that there are economists that agree with the Government's strategy and those that agree with Labour........at the end of the discussion, the announcer said "economists, what do they know, they've only forecast 7 of the last 3 recessions"
Apologies as it has nothing to do with the original thread but it made me chuckle.

27 Oct 2010

Quote by Max777
Totally agree about experts disagreeing. On radio this morning there was a discussion about the economy and the point was made that there are economists that agree with the Government's strategy and those that agree with Labour........at the end of the discussion, the announcer said "economists, what do they know, they've only forecast 7 of the last 3 recessions"
Apologies as it has nothing to do with the original thread but it made me chuckle.

:laughabove: