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The McCann's

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Quote by tweeky
Honestly Dave, no they dont. They go to school where they are dropped at the class room door and collected from the same place. My 7 year old does not play in the street or on her own at the park in fact she does not go out of the door without someone going with her. I was out playing in the street by the time I was 5 but back then everyone did. Thats the opposite now pretty much everyone does not. Its very very rare I see kids that are not teens playing in the streets around here and if they are the parents are normally in the front garden working on the car or something similar. I do see a few more when I drive through so called "rougher" estate but its still not as many as would have been there years ago. It would seem that in the area I live its not deemed safe to have your under teen kids playing out without supervision and the same goes for leaving them in the home alone. Dont really understand the school ref TBH Dave dunno All kids have to go to school unless you have the ability and the financial capacity to home school. We do assume that whilst there they are safe if for one second I thought they were not they wouldn't be going, simple as.
As for other parents in similar positions? I seem to remember quite a bit of discussion about Jamie Bulgers mother and that she was not adequately supervising him. I think the difference in that case is his body and the awful things that had happened to it along with the killers emerged and that overshadowed other aspects of the case.

Yet when they get to senior school people do not drop them off as a rule, they just let them go in on their own. That was the age of the girls that were taken by the Soham guy. This can be seen all around the country and it is not just the "rougher" estates. It is normal for kids to walk in.
Around where I live kids still play on the street, go to the park and go for sweets. It is as safe now as it was when I was a kid. There will always be bad people out there. The papers want us to believe there is a killer/ /kidnapper on every street corner.
Dave_Notts
Quote by Dave__Notts
In my opinion, unsubstantiated of course, yes.

So you guess that they killed them :thumbup:
Thanks for admitting that is what you are doing
Dave_Notts
You have this marvellous capacity for changing what people say Dave rolleyes
I didn't say "they" at all. And who is "them?" dunno
Quote by Dave-Notts
must have missed the Mcanns having a right knees up and laughing out loud when the child has gone missing. Over these years the woman on TV in tears was really having a good old laugh that their child has been kidnapped. Thanks for pointing out that I was seeing something different icon_

By whom and where was that written in this thread? :dunno:
Quote by Dave_Notts
"We never let our kids out of our sight".

As flower said, I didn't see anybody say that either...
You are having a bad day Dave :lol2:
Quote by flower411
.
You are having a bad day Dave :lol2:

Defending the indefensible is always going to be tricky :giggle:
He (being Dave, only for reasons of clarity of course) can handle it. I'm told he's a big boy now and even allowed out on his own... if only occasionally
Quote by GnV
But at whose expense?

seeing as i suppose it will be at the cost of the BRITISH taxpayer and you i have red live in france it certanly will not be at yours!
why do you have such a massive problem about cost? yes what they did was wrong in todays world it happened a LOT in the past and nobody said anything then as it WAS acceptable to do when on holiday, that my freind is a you say you did not well give that man a cracker.
as i have said already peeple on a swingers site with such high morals about what others do. tut tut.
your problem is exactly? from a person who does not now reside in england is???
Quote by flower411
I`m still uncertain what connection you are making between child neglect and swinging !
Are you saying that swingers should accept all forms of immorality because they indulge in recreational sex ?
This is an interesting outlook and one that the tabloids are quick to pick up on.
Personally, we enjoy recreational sex. We indulge in this when there are no children around.
But for the record I also abhor child abuse or neglect in any form and I am completely unable to understand how you are making a connection between the two.

i canot make it any cleerer for you.
peeple are judging others actions when those same peeple will be on here looking for recreational sex with virtual strangers. you reely cannot see the link here? well i am not going to argu the point with you.
for the record though, why do some on here not castigate denise bulger for letting her TWO yes TWO year old child out of her sight?? she must have took her eyes off him for enough of a time for two young boys to take him. i have never herd anyone castigate her for not watching him!
or is it ok if it is only for two minutes as opossed for two hours? if not then castigate her as well as say sarah paynes mother to.
Quote by starlightcouple

I`m still uncertain what connection you are making between child neglect and swinging !
Are you saying that swingers should accept all forms of immorality because they indulge in recreational sex ?
This is an interesting outlook and one that the tabloids are quick to pick up on.
Personally, we enjoy recreational sex. We indulge in this when there are no children around.
But for the record I also abhor child abuse or neglect in any form and I am completely unable to understand how you are making a connection between the two.

i canot make it any cleerer for you.
peeple are judging others actions when those same peeple will be on here looking for recreational sex with virtual strangers. you reely cannot see the link here? well i am not going to argu the point with you.
for the record though, why do some on here not castigate denise bulger for letting her TWO yes TWO year old child out of her sight?? she must have took her eyes off him for enough of a time for two young boys to take him. i have never herd anyone castigate her for not watching him!
or is it ok if it is only for two minutes as opossed for two hours? if not then castigate her as well as say sarah paynes mother to.
Just how you equate child abuse and swinging is way beyond me.
You seem to think because we are swingers we have no right to judge people that ABUSE CHILDREN.
I am certainly glad i don't have your morals,if that means child neglect and abuse is acceptable.
You are beyond contempt and i just hope every member can see that.
No we never abandoned our children to go out on the piss, no we never abandoned our children because we thought we needed time to ourselves.
Quote by GnV
In my opinion, unsubstantiated of course, yes.

So you guess that they killed them :thumbup:
Thanks for admitting that is what you are doing
Dave_Notts
You have this marvellous capacity for changing what people say Dave rolleyes
I didn't say "they" at all.
When I asked:
Quote by Dave__Notts
Did they kill the child?

And you answered:
Quote by GnV
In my opinion, unsubstantiated of course, yes.

You actually meant no then? Or did you mean yes?
I took you at your word when you said yes to my question of did they kill her, which you said was unsubstantiated.........in other words you are guessing
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
I didn`t say the Mcanns weren`t included in "most people" !
You do make some weird assumptions about what people mean.
The Mcanns made a decision that in my opinion was criminally negligent, I never at any point said that they weren`t beating themselves up about it.

This is what I am unsure of as I have never been privy to the full facts.
An example of criminally negligent was when some parents had a picnic in the UK on a railway embankment then let the kids play near the track. Guess what happened next? Train came along and ran them over.
Now in this topic on here, I am reading some wild allegations that look like tabloid spin. The Mcanns did not go on the piss and leave the children. To most this would mean they tucked them up in bed and headed into town. The authorities in Portugal did not charge them. The UK authorities have not charged them. Nobody has taken the other kids into care because they are bad parents. So there is no evidence to charge them with anything.
Nobody has a clue what actually happened. So people are just guessing...............as I am.
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
So, please try to make it clearer to me because I`m really not following what you`re getting at.

A guess.
I constantly read in forums and profiles, that people in swinging are so open minded. By having such definite opinions, and quick to judge, this is a wrong way to be in the swinging scene.
As I said, it is a guess.
Quote by flower411
I honestly believe that they regret their actions but are acutely aware of their own negligence which is why they keep drawing our attention to the whole sorry affair rather than concentrating on trying to give their other children a normal life.

I agree with everything else you have said except this bit.
If it was my child I would still hold out hope that she would come home and make as much noise to anybody and everybody. You could give up on your lost child but I couldn't. This is where we will both differ
Dave_Notts
Quote by flower411
That`s why I keep saying it`s my opinion !

I use it, you use it and others use it. IMO. But it means shit really, except those that have the power to make the decisions. In this instance they did not take any action against them so there was no criminal negligence...........irrelevant of what others think or voice.
Dave_Notts
This is one of lifes inponderables. Would the other children be damaged if they did or didn't take the actions they are taking. Whichever way they go then they will never know if the other way would have been best.
But thats just life........if we only took the other fork in the road
Dave_Notts
Quote by starlightcouple

But at whose expense?

seeing as i suppose it will be at the cost of the BRITISH taxpayer and you i have red live in france it certanly will not be at yours!
why do you have such a massive problem about cost? yes what they did was wrong in todays world it happened a LOT in the past and nobody said anything then as it WAS acceptable to do when on holiday, that my freind is a you say you did not well give that man a cracker.
as i have said already peeple on a swingers site with such high morals about what others do. tut tut.
your problem is exactly? from a person who does not now reside in england is???
British taxpayers have this problem about cost too. The cost could run in to £millions at a time when there are so many pressures on Police budgets under the UK Government's austerity plans and every pound lost in this enquiry puts another front line officer's job at risk, despite what the Home Secretary says. The money will be better spent elsewhere fighting knife and gun crime on the streets of London for example, where a significant number of young lives can be saved.
Someone has described it in the Sunday papers as "a ludicrous waste of money". I agree with that sentiment. I may not now be a British Tax payer in your eyes but tax (on any assets held in UK) is paid in France under a double taxation treaty but I don't see how that matters a jot; I am still perfectly entitled to comment on it. I do still have a vote in Parliamentary elections in the UK after all and a UK Passport so I'm hardly disenfranchised wink
And why should the McCanns be given preferential treatment? Surely this decision opens the floodgates for the parents of all lost or missing children to ask the PM to open a Scotland Yard cold case enquiry into their loss? If not, why not?
Does it not also cut across the supposed independence of the Police and State?
I'm not the one with problem seemingly.
Quote by flower411
That`s why I keep saying it`s my opinion !

I use it, you use it and others use it. IMO. But it means shit really, except those that have the power to make the decisions. In this instance they did not take any action against them so there was no criminal negligence...........irrelevant of what others think or voice.
Dave_Notts
I can`t possibly imagine the pain that has been caused by their "In my opinion" selfish actions but I can hazard a guess at the effect it will have on their other children if they don`t move on.
Harsh but necessary for the other children not to grow up damaged.
I agree flower. Somewhat like a child lost through some accident or other and the parents hold a bedroom open as a shrine.
They need closure and to move on for the sake of the other kids. That doesn't mean to say they should forget though and abandon all hope...
There have been cases recently where abducted children have re-emerged years later after all.
Quote by Dave__Notts
Honestly Dave, no they dont. They go to school where they are dropped at the class room door and collected from the same place. My 7 year old does not play in the street or on her own at the park in fact she does not go out of the door without someone going with her. I was out playing in the street by the time I was 5 but back then everyone did. Thats the opposite now pretty much everyone does not. Its very very rare I see kids that are not teens playing in the streets around here and if they are the parents are normally in the front garden working on the car or something similar. I do see a few more when I drive through so called "rougher" estate but its still not as many as would have been there years ago. It would seem that in the area I live its not deemed safe to have your under teen kids playing out without supervision and the same goes for leaving them in the home alone. Dont really understand the school ref TBH Dave dunno All kids have to go to school unless you have the ability and the financial capacity to home school. We do assume that whilst there they are safe if for one second I thought they were not they wouldn't be going, simple as.
As for other parents in similar positions? I seem to remember quite a bit of discussion about Jamie Bulgers mother and that she was not adequately supervising him. I think the difference in that case is his body and the awful things that had happened to it along with the killers emerged and that overshadowed other aspects of the case.

Yet when they get to senior school people do not drop them off as a rule, they just let them go in on their own. That was the age of the girls that were taken by the Soham guy. This can be seen all around the country and it is not just the "rougher" estates. It is normal for kids to walk in.
Around where I live kids still play on the street, go to the park and go for sweets. It is as safe now as it was when I was a kid. There will always be bad people out there. The papers want us to believe there is a killer/ /kidnapper on every street corner.
Dave_Notts
I suppose every parent has to make a decision about when their children are old or mature enough to do certain things on there own. The Soham case was unusual in that there were two children both of an age where you not expect them to get into a situation of that kind.
There may well actually be a on every street corner? who knows the exact number :dunno: We allegedly had one around here when I was younger, we were told where he lived never to go in his house and to stay in groups around that area. Years later some friends and I started to visit the house of an older guy. We thought it was safe as he was a member of a well respected organisation. He let us drink cider and watch soft porn, we thought he was allowing us to be grown up. It later emerged he was exposing himself to some of the younger children that were also visiting at different times to us.
I dont think there are any more in number but what may make it more dangerous is they may well be better organised due to the internet :dunno: this may also make them more hyped up for want of a better word due to the photo exchanges etc.
I completely agree with you. Furthermore, I have no sympathy for the McCann's and I have to question if the reason why they were able to harness the media attention is because both of them are doctors. In addition, the Madeline story takes media energy away from other children in a similar situation preventing their stories from being told.
Quote by yorkiesmurf
I completely agree with you. Furthermore, I have no sympathy for the McCann's and I have to question if the reason why they were able to harness the media attention is because both of them are doctors. In addition, the Madeline story takes media energy away from other children in a similar situation preventing their stories from being told.

I have read the thread, and this post sums it up for me.
Personally I think that they were entirely negligent in all respects, I wouldn't do what they had done and despite the claims that there seems to be a body of people who "know someone who has/would", I cannot say that I do.
Clearly I hope with all my heart and everything that is dear to me that she turns up safe and sound - but I doubt it.
I have never been a "grief whore" and although it may be extremely unpopular to say this.... I am completely bored with the whole story. They are at fault and should have been prosecuted - they weren't - Madaleine is still missing, and probably dead - that's really the end of it for me.
If the Portuguese Police have done all they can, and the crime is not solvable; I can't see what more the McCanns are going to produce other than growing more resentment for themselves. That would be from the people who are most likely to help them.
Also they could shut this whole thing down and just quietly grieve and live out their lives. Which I think is what most people would choose to do now, and that's because most people have to. That would be the understandable thing to do
The general public has to acknowledge the appearances of the McCanns and behave accordingly, but that's also holding many of us to emotional ransom. Most of us have enough to do running our own families, there is a limit to what can be asked of us. We can't actually do anything for them.
So in some ways they appear to have hardened their endeavour, perhaps it might equally work for them to accept their lot and follow that route. There's nothing wrong in that.
Quote by flower411
You can keep coming up with examples which move closer and closer to line but it`ll never change the fact that deserting your children in a strange place is so far the other side of the line that there is no excuse.
Of course the person or people to blame are the ones that took the child away but they wouldn`t have been able to do that if the child hadn`t been left alone for a long period of time.

Wholeheartedly agree Flower, if people left such a young family 'home alone' here in UK there would be the usual outcry and calls for Social Services, etc. to be involved.
They took a risk and it went wrong, could have been something far worse like a fire that claimed all 3 youngsters
There is no way on Earth you can justify leaving your children, while you go out with your friends for a meal.
If the restaurant doesn't allow children, pick another restaurant.
The adults made a decision to leave their children home alone, so they could have a night out.
Had the hotel/apartment set on fire, would you still be seeking to justify their actions.
I THINK NOT.......................................
Edited to add (I do hope they find her)
Quote by flower411
You can keep coming up with examples which move closer and closer to line but it`ll never change the fact that deserting your children in a strange place is so far the other side of the line that there is no excuse.
Of course the person or people to blame are the ones that took the child away but they wouldn`t have been able to do that if the child hadn`t been left alone for a long period of time.

They made a fundamental error of judgment the consequences of which both they and Madaline now appear to be paying for but I don't see them as bad parents or even bad people, I see them as parents that made the wrong choice and paid little or no regard to their childrens safety which occasionally re wrong choices we all as parents make...I dont see their actions as much different to those of parents that fit their childs safety seat in their car or who leave their children to walk home alone from school or leave their children with a badysitter that might be the friend of the next door neighbour, all of which if the situation goes awry could be seen as negligent...
It is so easy to condemn but in reality to some degree or another we are perhaps all negligent (if thats the term being used) re our children, it's just that the McCann's error was perhaps the worst case scenario and they perhaps just happened to be the subject of the attention of person or persos unknown who was looking for an opportunity to abduct a child.
Andy
Quote by Andy_Jules
It is so easy to condemn but in reality to some degree or another we are perhaps all negligent (if thats the term being used) re our children, it's just that the McCann's error was perhaps the worst case scenario and they perhaps just happened to be the subject of the attention of person or persos unknown who was looking for an opportunity to abduct a child.
Andy

oh hindsight what a wonderful word.
i wonder what some peeple on here would advocate for a punishment for these parents? there are so many peeple on here who seem to0 be the absolut perfect parents.
lets send these peeple to prison and put there children into care then. we only know anything about these peeple that is fed to us by the gutter press. oh how i wish i had the moral code that some peeple seem to have. i rarely here such hatred about parents who have lost there child.
mr flower tell me where you stand on the mother of james bulger? surely if she had been watching little james PROPERLY he would not have been taken? share your thoughts with us on that parent.
Quote by starlightcouple

It is so easy to condemn but in reality to some degree or another we are perhaps all negligent (if thats the term being used) re our children, it's just that the McCann's error was perhaps the worst case scenario and they perhaps just happened to be the subject of the attention of person or persos unknown who was looking for an opportunity to abduct a child.
Andy

oh hindsight what a wonderful word.
i wonder what some peeple on here would advocate for a punishment for these parents? there are so many peeple on here who seem to0 be the absolut perfect parents.
lets send these peeple to prison and put there children into care then. we only know anything about these peeple that is fed to us by the gutter press. oh how i wish i had the moral code that some peeple seem to have. i rarely here such hatred about parents who have lost there child.
mr flower tell me where you stand on the mother of james bulger? surely if she had been watching little james PROPERLY he would not have been taken? share your thoughts with us on that parent.
People are judging not on what the press tell us but FACT.
They did leave 3 children unattended in a hotel room.
Not so much HATRED for the parents, more concern that if this happened in the UK to Mr & MRS Chav.
The press wouldn't be helping them out, they would be demanding the other children be taken into care.
They don't need punishment, but they do need to held responsible for their actions.
"They need to be held responsible for their actions".
The Portugese authorities thought otherwise or they would have been charged.
Dave_Notts
James Bulger could not have been taken is he had been on kiddie-reins. There is a stage between pushchair, too heavy to carry and being safe to walk alone - James was in that stage. That's where reins come in - or that wrist strap thing with the velcro.
It was a tragic lapse, it could have been prevented. I can't comment on whether the reposnible parent should be 'punished' cos they lost their child. But what about the rest of teh family? They lost their brother, grnadson, nephew, etc etc etc. How must they feel that another loved one is at least partially reposnisble for their loss? I can't begin to imagine that pain.
There is no similarity between the Bulger case and the dissappearance of Madelaine McCann, and to try and compare them is insulting to his memory.
It has nothing to do with a lapse in concentration - how many people "concentrate" when they take their children out. Not many... infact probably none. You cannot fail to do something that you had not set out to achieve - but you can fail to take proper care where a reasonable person would have done.
It is my view that any child can be taken away, it takes seconds. However to leave children alone as in the McCann case is down to wrecklessness, poor judgment and a conscious decision to do that which a reasonable parent would not have done.
Quote by himandher
However to leave children alone as in the McCann case is down to wrecklessness, poor judgment and a conscious decision to do that which a reasonable parent would not have done.

the portugese authorities did what exactly? the british authorities did what exactly?
does that not tell you anything about this case? they were never charged and convicted of ANY wrong doing!
Quote by foxylady
James Bulger could not have been taken is he had been on kiddie-reins. There is a stage between pushchair, too heavy to carry and being safe to walk alone - James was in that stage. That's where reins come in - or that wrist strap thing with the velcro.

quite right foxylady.
there is of course actions that denise bulger could have taken with her child. of course not the same as the macannes case but similar in that both children went missing being a fault of the parent/parents all the same. nothing we say on here can change that both sets of parents acted in the way they should have done then nether child would have gone missing.
a fact that denise bulger and the macannes will haunt themselfs with forever.
both parents made mistakes but hind sight is such a wonderful thing to have. now who has lots of that on here then?
I don't equate the two in any meaningful way, beyond teh loss of a child. Both were preventable.
I do wonder how many parents changed their behaviours as a result. Did more parents buy and use reins after Jamie was taken? Did parents arrange proper babysitting etc after the Mcann case? I'd be curious to know.
Quote by foxylady2209
I do wonder how many parents changed their behaviours as a result. Did more parents buy and use reins after Jamie was taken? Did parents arrange proper babysitting etc after the Mcann case?

as these crimes were and still are very rare i beleve that very few peeple changed there habits. it is always a case of it will never happen to me. i bet there are still many peeple who leave there kids whilst they are having a drink in the same hotel. i see kids all the time wandering about in high streets and the parents more concerned with looking at goods than looking out for there kids. i saw this only yesterday many times.
Quote by starlightcouple
However to leave children alone as in the McCann case is down to wrecklessness, poor judgment and a conscious decision to do that which a reasonable parent would not have done.

the portugese authorities did what exactly? the british authorities did what exactly?
does that not tell you anything about this case? they were never charged and convicted of ANY wrong doing!
What the authorities may or may not have done is irrelevant to the conduct of the reasonable person.
Lost of people do things that in similar circumstances, reasonable people would not do - they are not all charged with offences otherwise the courts would be jammed full of cases concerning unreaonableness.
Whether they were charged or not has no bearing on whether what they did was reasonable or unreasonable - most people would agree that it was unreasonable, and what the courts may or may not have said is neither here nor there.