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Thoughts be with you
Sex God
Totally. A dignified and determined man - many could learn from his example. And a wicked sense of fun too. 
He should be an inspiration to the world, I think Kiplings "If" sums him up perfectly
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a man, my son!
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a man, my son!
Quote by MidsCouple24
How clever of Kipling to write that about someone he did not know, but it is an excellent description of this man.
There is no doubt that for every Hitler and every Stalin or Amin there is a man such as Mandela, how clever of nature too.
You see/ hear so many politicians who are so full of themselves and haven't a good thing to say about their opponents, Mandela was incarcerated for fighting against a system that need changing and after 27 years in prison works with those people that incarcerated him to bring change to his country. The world needs more Mandelas', people that can stand up and work with everyone to bring about change.
I think our politicians could learn a few things from him, a guy that can talk and deal with people of all political persuasions.
Sex God
Remarkable poetry.
Brought a tear to my eye.
Brought a tear to my eye.
I would like to ask all those who labelled him a terrorist back then to give their opinion now, and watch them eat their words, as we now know they would.
Yes he was branded a terrorist, by those that ran an apartheid government that was not elected by all the people of the Nation.
When all the people of the Nation did get to vote they elected him Prime Minister, black and white alike supported him and still do, he changed a system that was wrong, he united a Nation that was reviled by most of the civilised world.
South Africa admitted they were wrong about him.
Yes he was branded a terrorist, by those that ran an apartheid government that was not elected by all the people of the Nation.
When all the people of the Nation did get to vote they elected him Prime Minister, black and white alike supported him and still do, he changed a system that was wrong, he united a Nation that was reviled by most of the civilised world.
South Africa admitted they were wrong about him.
Mids would you agree that the ANC were a terrorist organisation? Was he a member of that said organisation? I was always under the impression that those two things were indeed true. Is that not the case then?
South Africa has had a zillion problems over the years, and I believe when this man dies it could possibly plunge this country into the bad old days. Let us hope not though.
South Africa has had a zillion problems over the years, and I believe when this man dies it could possibly plunge this country into the bad old days. Let us hope not though.
A terrorist, what is that, someone who uses terror tactics to get their own way ?
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, South Africa supressed the black community, tortured and murdered them, imprisoned them without trial, ruled them without giving them rights, kinda like what we are currently saying is wrong in Afghanistan and Syria.
We are arming terrorists in Syria because we believe the government in power is corrupt and unjust. Perhaps in Syria they are freedom fighters and deserve our help, perhaps they are merely terrorists trying to get their own way, different people will see it in different ways.
History is usually the decider of what is right and what is wrong, in South Africa, things are better for most whites and the blacks since Mandella was freed and put into power.
I have met hundreds of White South Africans when I worked for a South African owned and based company in Switzerland, only those that were rich and had made their money from the treatment of the black South Africans said it was a bad thing, the average white South African said that all in all things had improved under a black government.
Bomber Harris instigated a policy of carpet bombing during WWII resulting in the direct deaths of hundreds of thousands of German civilians, men, women and children, the British Government supported that course of action, history has said it was wrong and those same nations that carpet bombed Germany now take what precautions they can to now eliminate civilian casualties in war as much as possible, they say that the terror they attempted to create was wrong, they admit to conducting a terror campaign to bring the German Nation into line, the Germans did the same in London.
Bomber Command realised that only 10% of the bombs they were dropping in their "precision bombing" campaign were getting within 5 miles of their target, Bomber Harris said that the only way of stopping the German War industry was to carpet bomb the cities where the factories were to destroy their ability to wage war and to make the civilian population sick to death (literally) of fighting, initial targets were indeed large industrial cities, after a few months this tactic was expanded to cities such as Dresden which had no war factories but was purely against the civilian population, some 40,000 civilian died as a result of that first raid.
History says that carpet bombing does not work and only installs more resolve into the civilian population, if it had worked I have no doubt that the first gulf war would have seen the carpet bombing of Baghdad and other major cities in Iraq.
Bomber Harris or the British Goverment who openly admit to employing terrorism as a tactic have never been charged with acts of terrorism.
So starlight yes I agree that Mandella was a member of what some call a terrorist organisation, would you admit that the British people were members of what some would call a terrorist organisation ?
And before anyone says that we did this when at war and not against our own population .....
Northern Ireland. The British Government imprisoned it's subjects without trial for many years in the H Blocks, there have been proven cases of torture of British subjects by British authorities.
Our history abroad in our colonies and in Countries we ruled such as India are no better than that of the White South African government, we learned to change our ways (for the most part) but not all Countries do.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, South Africa supressed the black community, tortured and murdered them, imprisoned them without trial, ruled them without giving them rights, kinda like what we are currently saying is wrong in Afghanistan and Syria.
We are arming terrorists in Syria because we believe the government in power is corrupt and unjust. Perhaps in Syria they are freedom fighters and deserve our help, perhaps they are merely terrorists trying to get their own way, different people will see it in different ways.
History is usually the decider of what is right and what is wrong, in South Africa, things are better for most whites and the blacks since Mandella was freed and put into power.
I have met hundreds of White South Africans when I worked for a South African owned and based company in Switzerland, only those that were rich and had made their money from the treatment of the black South Africans said it was a bad thing, the average white South African said that all in all things had improved under a black government.
Bomber Harris instigated a policy of carpet bombing during WWII resulting in the direct deaths of hundreds of thousands of German civilians, men, women and children, the British Government supported that course of action, history has said it was wrong and those same nations that carpet bombed Germany now take what precautions they can to now eliminate civilian casualties in war as much as possible, they say that the terror they attempted to create was wrong, they admit to conducting a terror campaign to bring the German Nation into line, the Germans did the same in London.
Bomber Command realised that only 10% of the bombs they were dropping in their "precision bombing" campaign were getting within 5 miles of their target, Bomber Harris said that the only way of stopping the German War industry was to carpet bomb the cities where the factories were to destroy their ability to wage war and to make the civilian population sick to death (literally) of fighting, initial targets were indeed large industrial cities, after a few months this tactic was expanded to cities such as Dresden which had no war factories but was purely against the civilian population, some 40,000 civilian died as a result of that first raid.
History says that carpet bombing does not work and only installs more resolve into the civilian population, if it had worked I have no doubt that the first gulf war would have seen the carpet bombing of Baghdad and other major cities in Iraq.
Bomber Harris or the British Goverment who openly admit to employing terrorism as a tactic have never been charged with acts of terrorism.
So starlight yes I agree that Mandella was a member of what some call a terrorist organisation, would you admit that the British people were members of what some would call a terrorist organisation ?
And before anyone says that we did this when at war and not against our own population .....
Northern Ireland. The British Government imprisoned it's subjects without trial for many years in the H Blocks, there have been proven cases of torture of British subjects by British authorities.
Our history abroad in our colonies and in Countries we ruled such as India are no better than that of the White South African government, we learned to change our ways (for the most part) but not all Countries do.
Quote by MidsCouple24
So starlight yes I agree that Mandella was a member of what some call a terrorist organisation, would you admit that the British people were members of what some would call a terrorist organisation ?
Did not need a personnel history lesson Mids.
As far as I am aware the ANC were a terrorist organisation, and Mandella was a part of that. Did the ANC not torture and murder it's own people? The British people were members of what Mids?
Next thing people will be saying Jerry Adams is some kind of folk hero.
Even Madella's Wife has been linked to murders and other things.
Still what do I know?
apparently you do need a history lesson, because what you have failed to learn is that the word terrorist is a name applied by some to some, calling people terrorists does not mean they are always bad, the Syrian Government are calling those opposed to them terrorists the UK is calling them rebels or freedom fighters.
The ANC was fighting oppression by the South African Government who were committing murder, torture and imprisonment without trial upon the people of the Nation, do you remember the Sharpville Massacre when 69 people were shot dead by the Police ?
Many would call the ANC rebels and Freedom fighters and you have to accept that the actions of the ANC were not terrorist activiities but those of rebels and freedom fighters or you have to accept that the Syrian rebels are also terrorists, you cannot have it both ways.
When Mandella was in Prison the ANC did carry out many acts of violence, prior to that the ANC were mostly responsible for organising strikes and civil unrest, he violence basically ended when Mandella was released from Prison, Mandella turned his back on his wife when it was revealed that her "football team" had been involved in violence and murder during the period of his imprisonment.
The ANC and its members were officially removed from the United States terrorism watch list in 2008.
As I said, a terrorist is not a recognised profession like a soldier or a politician, it is a label given to them by the media or government, not all terrorists are terrorists.
The ANC was fighting oppression by the South African Government who were committing murder, torture and imprisonment without trial upon the people of the Nation, do you remember the Sharpville Massacre when 69 people were shot dead by the Police ?
Many would call the ANC rebels and Freedom fighters and you have to accept that the actions of the ANC were not terrorist activiities but those of rebels and freedom fighters or you have to accept that the Syrian rebels are also terrorists, you cannot have it both ways.
When Mandella was in Prison the ANC did carry out many acts of violence, prior to that the ANC were mostly responsible for organising strikes and civil unrest, he violence basically ended when Mandella was released from Prison, Mandella turned his back on his wife when it was revealed that her "football team" had been involved in violence and murder during the period of his imprisonment.
The ANC and its members were officially removed from the United States terrorism watch list in 2008.
As I said, a terrorist is not a recognised profession like a soldier or a politician, it is a label given to them by the media or government, not all terrorists are terrorists.
Quote by starlightcouple
So starlight yes I agree that Mandella was a member of what some call a terrorist organisation, would you admit that the British people were members of what some would call a terrorist organisation ?
Did not need a personnel history lesson Mids.
As far as I am aware the ANC were a terrorist organisation, and Mandella was a part of that. Did the ANC not torture and murder it's own people? The British people were members of what Mids?
Next thing people will be saying Jerry Adams is some kind of folk hero.
Even Madella's Wife has been linked to murders and other things.
Still what do I know?
Next thing people will be saying Jerry Adams is some kind of folk hero.
I am confused at the relevance of this statement, why would people say Jerry Admas is a folk hero, he is a Politician what has being a Politician to do with being a folk hero ? and what has either a folk hero or Politician in Northern Ireland got to do with this discussion ?
Nope thought long and hard but don't get the relevance, unless of course your agreeing with what I say about those labelled terrorists, that some are, some maybe and some are not, Jerry Adams has never admitted to being a member of a terrorist organisation and has never been convicted to being a member of a terrorist organisation, he has been accused of it on many occasions.
He has never been convicted of carrying out an act of terrorism but has been labelled as a terrorist, my own opinion is that he has worked with and on behalf of the IRA but I have no proof of that.
History will see him as an antagonist and a terrorist by some and a political leader of Sin Fein and advocator of the goals of the IRA in the unification of Northern and Southern Ireland wanting an end to British Rule in the North.
His association with PIRA as opposed to OIRA does not do him any favours when he denies his affiliation or membership of PIRA but there is no evidence to convict him.
He has never been convicted of carrying out an act of terrorism but has been labelled as a terrorist, my own opinion is that he has worked with and on behalf of the IRA but I have no proof of that.
History will see him as an antagonist and a terrorist by some and a political leader of Sin Fein and advocator of the goals of the IRA in the unification of Northern and Southern Ireland wanting an end to British Rule in the North.
His association with PIRA as opposed to OIRA does not do him any favours when he denies his affiliation or membership of PIRA but there is no evidence to convict him.
Sex God
I spent a lot of time in South Africa in the late 1970's and early 1980's and at this time the ANC was viewed in that country as being a terrorist organisation. To be honest I thought at the time that South Africa was the best country in the world and I found it difficult to understand at the age why so many outside of that country would hate it so much. A great irony was that there was considerable illegal immigration through Mozambique into South AFrica and certainly in the places I went to there was prosperity, wealth and 100% employment across all races.
Of course with the benefit of time, age and hindsight the problem was not with the country, or the people but it just needed to change with the times.
Nelson Mandela is a true credit to mankind simply because of the way that he reacted after being released and found it more important for the country to be conciliatory rather than bombastic in victory. It is down to him alone that for all of South Africa's current problems it has not (yet at least) gone the way of its land locked neighbour to the north.
We are all entitled to change as we pass through life. Maturity, circumstances and experience shape us all and some people become truly great because of the changes they go through and the subsequent decisions that they then make.
Of course with the benefit of time, age and hindsight the problem was not with the country, or the people but it just needed to change with the times.
Nelson Mandela is a true credit to mankind simply because of the way that he reacted after being released and found it more important for the country to be conciliatory rather than bombastic in victory. It is down to him alone that for all of South Africa's current problems it has not (yet at least) gone the way of its land locked neighbour to the north.
We are all entitled to change as we pass through life. Maturity, circumstances and experience shape us all and some people become truly great because of the changes they go through and the subsequent decisions that they then make.
Sex God
i think Cameron may struggle to put this skeleton back in the cupboard
Sex God
Quote by Lizaleanrob
i think Cameron may struggle to put this skeleton back in the cupboard
The people who are sending this around Facebook and other social media sites fail to see the irony in their actions. Mandela despite all the hardship and all his personal suffering was never inclined to stick the knife in when he had the opportunity. The morons sending this around are only too quick to do just that.
Stand tall if in your youth you did not make a bad judgement call. Stand tall if your opinions on all kinds of worldwide events have not matured and mellowed with age and experience. Cameron may well be embarrassed but he can be assured that the great man would not be gunning for Cameron for the mistakes of judgement that he made earlier in his life. Unlike of course those who are spreading this around.
it's a good point but Politicians are experts in stocking cupboards with skeletons or convincing us that they were not doing aything wrong.
We won the war and ceratin Germans were charged as war criminals, had we lost the war there is a good chance that Bomber Harris and Winston Churchill would have been the ones charged as War Criminals or terrorists.
They knowlingly ordered the killing of civilians in countries occupied by the enemy but either neutral or on our side, they ordered the carpet bombing of civilians even in places of no military strategic value with the sole aim of destroying public moral.
We have all seen the movie the Dirty Dozen, this was based on an a novel about an actual event (the US called them the filthy thirteen) the objective, to assasinate/murder unarmed German Generals whose only alledged crime was being a General in the Wermacht.
Personally I believe that if someone invades your Country, declares war on you, attacks you then you do whatever it takes to protect the people you serve, bomb the enemy nation out of existance, burn them nuke them, I don't care, but I am not the one setting the moral standards or making the rules that I am asked to live by though as I have said before I have carried out the orders of the British Government on a number of occasions which were in breach of the Geneva Convention and I have taken part in the long term imprisonment without trial of detainees.
We won the war and ceratin Germans were charged as war criminals, had we lost the war there is a good chance that Bomber Harris and Winston Churchill would have been the ones charged as War Criminals or terrorists.
They knowlingly ordered the killing of civilians in countries occupied by the enemy but either neutral or on our side, they ordered the carpet bombing of civilians even in places of no military strategic value with the sole aim of destroying public moral.
We have all seen the movie the Dirty Dozen, this was based on an a novel about an actual event (the US called them the filthy thirteen) the objective, to assasinate/murder unarmed German Generals whose only alledged crime was being a General in the Wermacht.
Personally I believe that if someone invades your Country, declares war on you, attacks you then you do whatever it takes to protect the people you serve, bomb the enemy nation out of existance, burn them nuke them, I don't care, but I am not the one setting the moral standards or making the rules that I am asked to live by though as I have said before I have carried out the orders of the British Government on a number of occasions which were in breach of the Geneva Convention and I have taken part in the long term imprisonment without trial of detainees.
Sex God
Quote by Too Hot
i think Cameron may struggle to put this skeleton back in the cupboard
The people who are sending this around Facebook and other social media sites fail to see the irony in their actions. Mandela despite all the hardship and all his personal suffering was never inclined to stick the knife in when he had the opportunity. The morons sending this around are only too quick to do just that.
Stand tall if in your youth you did not make a bad judgement call. Stand tall if your opinions on all kinds of worldwide events have not matured and mellowed with age and experience. Cameron may well be embarrassed but he can be assured that the great man would not be gunning for Cameron for the mistakes of judgement that he made earlier in his life. Unlike of course those who are spreading this around.
then indeed i am correct it has come back to haunt him
Was he a member of an organisation that killed and murdered people? The ANC can easily be described as a terrorist group, anyone who doubts this then look up the word.
I am not saying he killed anyone but he was heavily involved with an organisation that did kill. There are plenty of references about him from other people more knowledgeable than me on this subject. Yes he is a man of peace, but was he always like that? Is he really this folk hero that people seem to think he is?
I am not saying he killed anyone but he was heavily involved with an organisation that did kill. There are plenty of references about him from other people more knowledgeable than me on this subject. Yes he is a man of peace, but was he always like that? Is he really this folk hero that people seem to think he is?
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
...................... Is he really this folk hero that people seem to think he is?
Yes.
Like many, he may have been zealous and militant in his youth and he pursued a cause that was viewed to be illegal in his country and was imprisoned. In later life, he was magnaminious in victory and chose peace and reconciliation over revenge. This is why he is a great man and this is why is revered by so many all over the world.
Quote by Too Hot
...................... Is he really this folk hero that people seem to think he is?
Yes.
Like many, he may have been zealous and militant in his youth and he pursued a cause that was viewed to be illegal in his country and was imprisoned. In later life, he was magnaminious in victory and chose peace and reconciliation over revenge. This is why he is a great man and this is why is revered by so many all over the world.
Have you heard of the Church St bombing ?
Sex God
What of the Church St bombing?
The year before that I was in the Cockney Pride pub in Durban when a small bomb went off in the lobby of the Beach Hotel above. Not a big deal - lots of broken glass and minor injuries. But I "could" say that I was a victim of an ANC bombing. I was horrified at the time but again - it had to be taken in the context of the situation at that time. With the benefit of hindsight we are able to see and understand the on-going struggle for equality in South Africa.
The Church Street bombings along with the Soweto shootings have to be taken in the context of the time. The South African Police murdered far more innocent people than any so called terrorist organisation and it is because of this that Mandela's determination to seek peace and reconciliation and not revenge that he is so highly thought of.
The year before that I was in the Cockney Pride pub in Durban when a small bomb went off in the lobby of the Beach Hotel above. Not a big deal - lots of broken glass and minor injuries. But I "could" say that I was a victim of an ANC bombing. I was horrified at the time but again - it had to be taken in the context of the situation at that time. With the benefit of hindsight we are able to see and understand the on-going struggle for equality in South Africa.
The Church Street bombings along with the Soweto shootings have to be taken in the context of the time. The South African Police murdered far more innocent people than any so called terrorist organisation and it is because of this that Mandela's determination to seek peace and reconciliation and not revenge that he is so highly thought of.
Quote by starlightcouple
Was he a member of an organisation that killed and murdered people? The ANC can easily be described as a terrorist group, anyone who doubts this then look up the word.
I am not saying he killed anyone but he was heavily involved with an organisation that did kill. There are plenty of references about him from other people more knowledgeable than me on this subject. Yes he is a man of peace, but was he always like that? Is he really this folk hero that people seem to think he is?
So what ? why do you have so little compassion for a man who has proved his good for so long over what he may or may not have done in the past, as far as we are aware he joined the ANC in it's early years because the ANC wanted to put an end to the tyranny of the white rulers, there is nothing to say he did not change his mind about them when they turned from strikes and civil action to violence, you are the one that keeps harping on about FACTS, show me the fact that membership of the ANC means that you condone violence or took part in violent actions.
Ideals, beliefs and things change, most people do not think they way they did about certain things when they were younger, I have admitted on here to once being Homophobic, I changed my views with knowledge I learnt later in life.
You still haven't said what you consider is a terrorist or act of murder or evil, do you think that what the ANC did was terrorism and murder, do you think Jerry Adams is a terrorist and a murderer, do you think Sir Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris were terrorists and murderers ?
You talk now of "people more knowledgeable" yet do not have facts (because if they did you would be quoting those facts) yet you insist that statements without facts are just "me running off at the mouth"
Quote by MidsCouple24
So what ?
What do you mean " so what "? Would you show the same compassion Mids for a man like, Ian Brady? If not, then why not?
Quote by MidsCouple24
You still haven't said what you consider is a terrorist or act of murder or evil, do you think that what the ANC did was terrorism and murder, do you think Jerry Adams is a terrorist and a murderer, do you think Sir Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris were terrorists and murderers ?
You ask about twenty questions in one sentence Mids. Please ask a question and then wait for an answer, before asking another question please.
The word " terrorism " is ...." Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, often violent, especially as a means of coercion ". So the ANC was/is a terrorist group. So that answers one of your questions.
Without a shadow of a doubt Jerry Adams was the mouth piece of the IRA. Is he a muderer? Without a shadow of a doubt. Maybe you have now seen the link between the two I gave yesterday.
Quote by MidsCouple24
You talk now of "people more knowledgeable" yet do not have facts (because if they did you would be quoting those facts) yet you insist that statements without facts are just "me running off at the mouth"
Are these facts Mids?
If they are true and it seems they could well be, is the murder of innocent people via a terrorist act now forgiven because a person repents his sins? I wonder if the family of the murdered victims by the ANC would also think Madella is this folk hero.
Yes Mandella has changed from the man he once was, but did he murder innocent people in cold blood? If in fact he did then he is no folk hero to me, no matter what he has done with his life since.
Quote by starlightcouple
So what ?
What do you mean " so what "? Would you show the same compassion Mids for a man like, Ian Brady? If not, then why not?
Quote by MidsCouple24
You still haven't said what you consider is a terrorist or act of murder or evil, do you think that what the ANC did was terrorism and murder, do you think Jerry Adams is a terrorist and a murderer, do you think Sir Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris were terrorists and murderers ?
You ask about twenty questions in one sentence Mids. Please ask a question and then wait for an answer, before asking another question please.
The word " terrorism " is ...." Terrorism is the systematic use of terror, often violent, especially as a means of coercion ". So the ANC was/is a terrorist group. So that answers one of your questions.
Without a shadow of a doubt Jerry Adams was the mouth piece of the IRA. Is he a muderer? Without a shadow of a doubt. Maybe you have now seen the link between the two I gave yesterday.
Quote by MidsCouple24
You talk now of "people more knowledgeable" yet do not have facts (because if they did you would be quoting those facts) yet you insist that statements without facts are just "me running off at the mouth"
Are these facts Mids?
If they are true and it seems they could well be, is the murder of innocent people via a terrorist act now forgiven because a person repents his sins? I wonder if the family of the murdered victims by the ANC would also think Madella is this folk hero.
Yes Mandella has changed from the man he once was, but did he murder innocent people in cold blood? If in fact he did then he is no folk hero to me, no matter what he has done with his life since.
Couldn't be bothered reading the link, I will accept that you would not have posted it had it not been proof. so you believe that he cannot be forgiven, not him, not Churchill, not Harris, not the pilots and crew that carried out the murders of innocents, not the soldiers, not our fathers or our grandfathers who throughout our history have murdered innocents in pursuit of their aims.
Remember I am not talking about innocents killed during war I am talking about the deliberate targeting of unarmed soldiers and innocent civilians or as we call it now, acts of terrorism by the British people as directed by the leaders and politicians, the pilots and crews that dropped the bombs, because as we decided at the Nuremberg trials, following orders is not an excuse for murder or atrocities or the killing of innocents.
Sex God
Quote by starlightcouple
.....................
Yes Mandella has changed from the man he once was, but did he murder innocent people in cold blood? If in fact he did then he is no folk hero to me, no matter what he has done with his life since.
Then you are part of a very tiny group of people in the world. The overwhelming majority see the amount of good has far outweighed the bad of his youth. In his youth he terroirised a small number of people, as a Senior Statesman he saved his nation.
Nelson Mandella - Ian Brady
An excellent choice of people to compare might I say
Nelson Mandella, did things in his youth that were wrong but and served 27 years in prison changed and went on to do great things, did nothing different to Sir Winston Churchill ie authorised the use of bombs against unarmed innocent civilians. (Churchill was never charged with the murders, never brought to justice, never labelled a terrorist even though he admitted it in his memoirs, never served time in prison for his crimes.
Ian Brady, murdered children for self gratification and never showed remorse, never showed feelings for his victims, refuses to this day to ease the pain of the parents by telling them where their children are dumped but does tease them occasionally.
An excellent choice of people to compare might I say
Nelson Mandella, did things in his youth that were wrong but and served 27 years in prison changed and went on to do great things, did nothing different to Sir Winston Churchill ie authorised the use of bombs against unarmed innocent civilians. (Churchill was never charged with the murders, never brought to justice, never labelled a terrorist even though he admitted it in his memoirs, never served time in prison for his crimes.
Ian Brady, murdered children for self gratification and never showed remorse, never showed feelings for his victims, refuses to this day to ease the pain of the parents by telling them where their children are dumped but does tease them occasionally.
Right so to clarify....Mandella was involved with a terrorist plot to kill and maim innocent people?
The Church St bombing killed 19 and wounded 217 and in many countries a person found guilty of that crime would have been executed. Sorry but that is just one act and am sure there are probably many others as well. Who then knows how many people he killed either directly or indirectly, and people say his good has outweighed his evil?
Sorry but whilst I agree he has done lots of great things, he is also a murderer and was part of a terrorist group. But what do I know?
A premeditated act of violence can never be forgiven, no matter who committed it. How people change their attitudes over time, as if murder is a trivial thing easily forgotten and forgiven, in the fullness of time.
The Church St bombing killed 19 and wounded 217 and in many countries a person found guilty of that crime would have been executed. Sorry but that is just one act and am sure there are probably many others as well. Who then knows how many people he killed either directly or indirectly, and people say his good has outweighed his evil?
Sorry but whilst I agree he has done lots of great things, he is also a murderer and was part of a terrorist group. But what do I know?
A premeditated act of violence can never be forgiven, no matter who committed it. How people change their attitudes over time, as if murder is a trivial thing easily forgotten and forgiven, in the fullness of time.
