UK politics

23 Jul 2012

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I am curious as to how some members of this forum define socialism ... it would appear some at least are confused

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.............

23 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
I am heavily involved in UK politics (hence no picture on my profile) and can say without doubt that there is no real difference between the main parties because all the rules, regulations and directives come from Brussels. That is why I work for another party (NOT the BNP) wanting to regain our independence.

I put the sameness of the two parties down to their evolution, and survival in the same 'ecosystem'. As an example compare a Dolphin and a Fish whilst they are very different animals, they look the same externally because the both have to survive in the sea ......
To grow big in the current UK political system a party's policies have to appeal to the masses, and compete effectively in the world economy. Taking the point about competing in the world economy I do wonder if we really have much choice about being a part of Europe?

23 Jul 2012

Quote by gulsonroad30664
should that be pernod or ricard....je ponce

Who you calling a pumice?
I think you meant je pense :lol2:

23 Jul 2012

Quote by GnV
should that be pernod or ricard....je ponce

Who you calling a pumice?
I think you meant je pense :lol2:
na i think he had it right first time with ponce
bolt

:bolt:

23 Jul 2012

Quote by Robert400andKay
I am heavily involved in UK politics (hence no picture on my profile) and can say without doubt that there is no real difference between the main parties because all the rules, regulations and directives come from Brussels. That is why I work for another party (NOT the BNP) wanting to regain our independence.

I put the sameness of the two parties down to their evolution, and survival in the same 'ecosystem'. As an example compare a Dolphin and a Fish whilst they are very different animals, they look the same externally because the both have to survive in the sea ......
To grow big in the current UK political system a party's policies have to appeal to the masses, and compete effectively in the world economy. Taking the point about competing in the world economy I do wonder if we really have much choice about being a part of Europe?
Yeah, pretty much. It's international finance and the power multi-national companies have over our national economy that most ties the Govt's hands, whatever their colour. The latest recession(s) are an object lesson in that, surely? confused

To pretend that life in the UK would be vastly ( underlined for emphasisis ) different were we to withdraw / renegogiate our treaty obligations is either intellectually dishonest at best, or downright deluded.

29 Jul 2012

Quote by bayboy1664
Does anyone actually think there is any difference whatsoever between any of the main political parties?

That is because all three so called "main parties" are following the same "hymn sheet" - the one produced by the EU!
That's why there is little difference between them.

29 Jul 2012

Quote by Lizaleanrob
I am heavily involved in UK politics (hence no picture on my profile) and can say without doubt that there is no real difference between the main parties because all the rules, regulations and directives come from Brussels. That is why I work for another party (NOT the BNP) wanting to regain our independence.

robert kilroy silk prehaps lol

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Laugh all you like but that "gentleman" (RKS) (trying to keep it polite) was kicked out of UKIP for bringing the party into disrepute.
The trouble seems to be in Britain that everyone (90% or so anyway) wants out of the EU but few are prepared to vote for any party but those wanting to stay in! Get real folks, wake up and smell the coffee! Vote for what you want, support the ONLY party offering it, or live in a dictatorship.
Your choice, but when you lose ALL your freedoms in a year or two I can hold my head high and say "I tried to stop this" - what are the rest of you going to do?

29 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
I am heavily involved in UK politics (hence no picture on my profile) and can say without doubt that there is no real difference between the main parties because all the rules, regulations and directives come from Brussels. That is why I work for another party (NOT the BNP) wanting to regain our independence.

robert kilroy silk prehaps lol

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Laugh all you like but that "gentleman" (RKS) (trying to keep it polite) was kicked out of UKIP for bringing the party into disrepute.
The trouble seems to be in Britain that everyone (90% or so anyway) wants out of the EU but few are prepared to vote for any party but those wanting to stay in! Get real folks, wake up and smell the coffee! Vote for what you want, support the ONLY party offering it, or live in a dictatorship.
Your choice, but when you lose ALL your freedoms in a year or two I can hold my head high and say "I tried to stop this" - what are the rest of you going to do?
I had wondered to which party you belonged Greg. I thought it was a toss up between EDL and UKIP, and I assume it isn't EDL smile

.
I think the issue with the EU and it's 'government' here might be compared to the USA. Out in the USA, the 'Sun/Express/Daily Mail readers' talk of Federal Government in much the same terms, the 'Telegraph/Guardian/Times readers' talk of the Balkanization of the West coast, and nothing changes.
Summarising the majority feel that the Feds, are a waste of money, don't do anything, etc etc but still nothing changes. The obvious question that apply's to both our relationship with the EU, and the USA federal government, is 'why hasn't it broken up'?
The only two answers I can think of are -
1. Corporate influence on the politicians keeps the status quo
2. Somewhere somebody knows that in an increasingly globalised world, with multinational corporations, if these federal governments were broken up things would be a heck of a lot worse.
I would be interested in your thoughts :).

29 Jul 2012

Since you ask, my thoughts are fairly uncomplicated.
Ted Heath signed us into the EU without a mandate (see the 1974 Labour manifesto for confirmation), and told a pack of lies to sell it to the British people (trading bloc, will have no significant political effect ect) but he knew as early as 1960 that the intention was to make a political Europe as one nation run from Brussels. The so called "referendum" of 1975 was a one sided "fixed" fiasco where big business ran the "yes" side with "unlimited" funds while the NO campaign was largely unsupported and finally relied on selling tee shirts and pens to raise funds! I remember it well as I was helping it out as best I could.
If we were to type out all the rules, regulations and laws Brussels forces on us on ordinary A4 paper and post them side by side along the M4 it would stretch from London to Bristol, AND NOW SOME 75 TO 80% of the way we live is decided by a foreign, arguably illegal, government. I say "illegal" because we British never voted for it nor has it been enforced on us through some lost war.
People, even some here, knock the Daily Mail or Express but they are only telling the truth (look behind the headlines).
Basically I see the only way out, thereby regaining our traditional independence and freedoms, is by supporting the only moderate party wanting to get us out.
I hope this explains my motivation and answers your question.
If it doesn't please ask again; unlike the "others" UKIP officials pride themselves on plain answers.

30 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
AND NOW SOME 75 TO 80% of the way we live is decided by a foreign, arguably illegal, government. I say "illegal" because we British never voted for it nor has it been enforced on us through some lost war.

NOT illegal, just unaccountable if you are referring the Commission.

30 Jul 2012

Quote by GnV
AND NOW SOME 75 TO 80% of the way we live is decided by a foreign, arguably illegal, government. I say "illegal" because we British never voted for it nor has it been enforced on us through some lost war.

NOT illegal, just unaccountable if you are referring the Commission.
And not all of it is unelected, there do seem to be European elections, and I did think that UKIP even had a few MPs.

30 Jul 2012

Quote by Robert400andKay
AND NOW SOME 75 TO 80% of the way we live is decided by a foreign, arguably illegal, government. I say "illegal" because we British never voted for it nor has it been enforced on us through some lost war.

NOT illegal, just unaccountable if you are referring the Commission.
And not all of it is unelected, there do seem to be European elections, and I did think that UKIP even had a few MPs.
That's the European Parliament not the Commission.
MEPs are elected to the European Parliament from within the Community whereas Commisioners are appointed.

30 Jul 2012

Ah yes, the infamous "Commission". Perhaps someone here can tell me when we last held an election to decide who sat on it? When did Mr Barrosso, for example, last have his name on the paper at your local polling station? Yet he has much sway and power over this nation, far more than even Dave Cameron.
And yes, UKIP has the second largest contingent of MEPs in the British section of the EU, but they, like all other MEPs, are largely powerless in the EU as it is the Commission which holds the authority and final say.
And yes illegal because it was not Heath's country to do with what he liked, nor any other PM, but ours (the electorate) and our nation was stolen from us and given away when Heath took us in without a mandate (ie, authorisation or permission from the "owners" of GB plc - us, the voters).

30 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
That is because all three so called "main parties" are following the same "hymn sheet" - the one produced by the EU!
That's why there is little difference between them.

I think you'll find it has more to do with their reliance on wealthy individuals and corporations to fill their coffers … if , for instance; the parties are singing from the european 'hymn sheet' why are we not using the Euro in our shops ??

Quote by GregSH
The trouble seems to be in Britain that everyone (90% or so anyway) wants out of the EU but few are prepared to vote for any party but those wanting to stay in! Get real folks, wake up and smell the coffee! Vote for what you want, support the ONLY party offering it, or live in a dictatorship.
Your choice, but when you lose ALL your freedoms in a year or two I can hold my head high and say "I tried to stop this" - what are the rest of you going to do?

90% ?? Really ?? the figures I found are somewhat different …
Where do you get the 90% figure ??
What would be the nature of this dictatorship ?? where would it be based ?? who would be the dictator ??? do you perhaps mean an oligarchy ??
Who is threatening our freedoms ?? from where I'm sitting it is OUR government who is trying to curtail my rights not the E.U. … or are the human rights laws and working time directives etc. actually instigated by Westminster and not Brussels/Strasbourg ??

Quote by GregSH
what are the rest of you going to do?

Well I can't speak for anyone else (but I will anyway) 90% or so of us will be trying to stop you removing the last barrier between us and a rough buggering by the powers that be and their corporate paymasters.

Quote by GregSH
The so called "referendum" of 1975 was a one sided "fixed" fiasco where big business ran the "yes" side with "unlimited" funds while the NO campaign was largely unsupported and finally relied on selling tee shirts and pens to raise funds! I remember it well as I was helping it out as best I could.

It's the word in bold that kind of speaks volumes … tell us,why do you think it was unsupported ?? why did you struggle with funding ??

Quote by GregSH
If we were to type out all the rules, regulations and laws Brussels forces on us on ordinary A4 paper and post them side by side along the M4 it would stretch from London to Bristol,

Really ?? what font size ?? Why not tell us how many double decker buses they would fill or how high in comparison to the Eiffel tower,football pitches,cricket squares ?? how far would Tolkiens' Lord of the rings stretch ?? or the column space given by xenophobic newspapers ?? What an absolutely meaningless pointless unenlightening made up statistic

Quote by GregSH
AND NOW SOME 75 TO 80% of the way we live is decided by a foreign, arguably illegal, government..

Go on show us … last time I made a decision it was me that made it not an illegal foreign government ( which one B.T.W. ?? Zimbabwe ?? Good ole G.W. Bush's ??) Now our Laws may well be to some extent be formulated in Europe but so are theirs ( quid pro quo is the term I believe ) but 80% of 'the way we live' I really don't think so

Quote by GregSH
Since you ask, my thoughts are fairly uncomplicated.

This I do agree with

30 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
Ah yes, the infamous "Commission". Perhaps someone here can tell me when we last held an election to decide who sat on it? When did Mr Barrosso, for example, last have his name on the paper at your local polling station? Yet he has much sway and power over this nation, far more than even Dave Cameron.
And yes, UKIP has the second largest contingent of MEPs in the British section of the EU, but they, like all other MEPs, are largely powerless in the EU as it is the Commission which holds the authority and final say.
And yes illegal because it was not Heath's country to do with what he liked, nor any other PM, but ours (the electorate) and our nation was stolen from us and given away when Heath took us in without a mandate (ie, authorisation or permission from the "owners" of GB plc - us, the voters).

Is Barrossos' sway over this country similar to that which he holds over Greece or Germany or France ??
Heaths' mandate was the same as any other P.M.s' Mrs Thatcher for instance when she was "standing up to Europe" and decimating our industry ... their mandate is their election victory

Quote by GregSH
(ie, authorisation or permission from the "owners" of GB plc - us, the voters).

That would be U.K. Plc ... it's the United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ... the big island is Great Britain ... it's a common mistake ; see team GB at the Olympics such a shame that so many of those 'proud of our nation and it's heritage' don't even know its fucking name

31 Jul 2012

Oh dear, "there are non so blind as those who will not see".
Yes, I concede that opinion poll questions can be written in such a way as to get the answer the setter wants; go to (say) a swingers club on a Saturday night and ask how many think the lifestyle is acceptable and you will get about 100% say "yes"; ask the same question of the congregation at your local church on Sunday and you will most likely get the opposite answer! On Monday the "Daily Rag" will carry the headline "99% of the population approve (or disapprove) of swinging".
As to having "a mandate" the mere fact of winning over 50% of the seats at a general election is not a mamdate to do what the winning party wants. They produce a manifesto and it is from that paper that we make our choice as to the next government.
No party (I've read all the Labour/Tory manifestos since 1964) declared their intention to sell Britain out to a foreign government - but did it anyway.
The Conservatives are big at pretending to be anti EU (in Britain) but in the Brussels parliament never actually vote against the latest proposal, however damaging it may be to our nation. If they genuinely "wanted out" why are they not doing something about it? Why are they not going for "Dave's cast iron guarantee" of an "in/out" referendum? The only answer is because they know the result will be an overwhelming "yes" to leave!

31 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
Oh dear, "there are non so blind as those who will not see".
Yes, I concede that opinion poll questions can be written in such a way as to get the answer the setter wants

You may concede that point ... unfortunately it doesn't answer the did your quoted figure of 90% come from ??

Quote by GregSH
No party (I've read all the Labour/Tory manifestos since 1964) declared their intention to sell Britain out to a foreign government - but did it anyway.

What foreign government is this ?? Do you mean this one .....

Quote by GregSH
.
And yes, UKIP has the second largest contingent of MEPs in the British section of the EU,

suddenly doesn't sound so foreign this 'government' to which we as a nation contribute ... I do wonder about your definition of the E.U. parliament and commission as a government too

Quote by GregSH
If it doesn't please ask again; unlike the "others" UKIP officials pride themselves on plain answers.

Really?? .... oh good in that case

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I think you'll find it has more to do with their reliance on wealthy individuals and corporations to fill their coffers … if , for instance; the parties are singing from the european 'hymn sheet' why are we not using the Euro in our shops ??
90% ?? Really ?? the figures I found are somewhat different …
Where do you get the 90% figure ??
What would be the nature of this dictatorship ?? where would it be based ?? who would be the dictator ??? do you perhaps mean an oligarchy ??
Who is threatening our freedoms ?? from where I'm sitting it is OUR government who is trying to curtail my rights not the E.U. … or are the human rights laws and working time directives etc. actually instigated by Westminster and not Brussels/Strasbourg ??
It's the word in bold that kind of speaks volumes … tell us,why do you think it was unsupported ?? why did you struggle with funding ??
Really ?? what font size ?? Why not tell us how many double decker buses they would fill or how high in comparison to the Eiffel tower,football pitches,cricket squares ?? how far would Tolkiens' Lord of the rings stretch ?? or the column space given by xenophobic newspapers ?? What an absolutely meaningless pointless unenlightening made up statistic
Go on show us … last time I made a decision it was me that made it not an illegal foreign government ( which one B.T.W. ?? Zimbabwe ?? Good ole G.W. Bush's ??) Now our Laws may well be to some extent be formulated in Europe but so are theirs ( quid pro quo is the term I believe ) but 80% of 'the way we live' I really don't think so

Oh and B.T.W. the existence of Heaths mandate is irrelevant given the referendum under Wilson ...
you may not of got the result YOU wanted but that too is irrelevant ... see that democracy can just turn round and bite your arse can't it

31 Jul 2012

advert sums it up for me....
But there again....
You have to decide if you agree with the Commission's view on what constitutes the definition of the confection in the first place to be able to decide.
Personally, I like mine dark, mysterious and bitter, not at all 'wishy washy' which is what you so often find in the UK.

31 Jul 2012

Quote by GregSH
and told a pack of lies to sell it to the British people

i think once this age old political institution is removed then people would vote with a little more confidence
till then things will stay as they are

31 Jul 2012

can we do without europe? yes i think we most certainly can.
do we need brussels dictating to us on british issues? no we do not.
is europe a money machine where we put far more in than we get out of it? without a doubt.
can we tell europe to piss off and just do what was the intention to start with, and that was to trade with europe and nothing else? i cannot see why not.
are the powers that be ever going to allow the british public a vote on whether to opt out or stay in? most certainly not.
was the only british PM to stand up for britain against europe Thatcher? yes she most certainly was, in fact the only one.
based on those questions i believe that if we had a vote tomorrow on europe, a simple in or out, the answer would be a resounding out. the government knows this as well, and that is why the public will never get a vote. get used to it.

31 Jul 2012

Hang on a mo star..

there's a lot of good bits about being a part of Europe. You're only highlighting some of the bad bits that good 'ol Maggie wanted to be rid of and Bliar/Brown sought to impose further on the British electorate.
The strap-line "in Europe but not ruled by Europe" is where most British people want to be; not in a United States of Europe so it is by far too simplistic just to say "in or out". That would likely result in a resounding "in" vote which is Cameroon's stated position but he can't let the LibDems have too much of their own way, can he!
Not until the Deputy PM has secured his place at the Commission's top table, that is and back where he belongs wink

31 Jul 2012

Quote by GnV
Hang on a mo star..

there's a lot of good bits about being a part of Europe. You're only highlighting some of the bad bits that good 'ol Maggie wanted to be rid of and Bliar/Brown sought to impose further on the British electorate.

yes some of the bad bits and only some GNV. the good bits are what exactly for the british electorate? Maggie from my recollection of things, was sick and tired of pouring money into the coffers, in fact much more than anyone else. so she won a rebate/reduction call it what you will, for the british taxpayer. The money we pay now is billions of pounds a year, and a lot goes to bailing out other numpty countries who thought they were very smart joining the euro, only for these so called clever arses, to skinting there own countries. we put in far more than we take out, and for that i am sick and tired and I would want out.

Quote by GnV
The strap-line "in Europe but not ruled by Europe" is where most British people want to be; not in a United States of Europe so it is by far too simplistic just to say "in or out". That would likely result in a resounding "in" vote which is Cameroon's stated position but he can't let the LibDems have too much of their own way, can he!

to trade with europe by all means. to be able to have other peeple from member states free to come and go as they please, to settle here as they please, to work here as they please, no thank you very much GNV. the market place is now dictated in many areas because of european workers, and certainl;y to the detriment of BRITISH workers. that is not what the peeple in the 70's voted for, and i am sure that has they known then how things would be now, the vote would never have been a yes.
if you believe that a vote of in or out right now would probably mean an in vote, you i believe are wrong, and i also believe so do the majority of politicians. if they thought for a second that it would be a stay in vote, the government would just shut everyone up and have that vote.

Quote by GnV
Not until the Deputy PM has secured his place at the Commission's top table, that is and back where he belongs

Clegg could not run his own bath unaided GNV. have any of these peeple done a proper days work in there lives i wonder? they come from the scratch my back brigade. as an aside i wish both cameron and coe would piss off somewhere in europe, far away from the rest of Britain, neither one would be missed by me.

31 Jul 2012

Quote by star
there's a lot of good bits about being a part of Europe. You're only highlighting some of the bad bits that good 'ol Maggie wanted to be rid of and Bliar/Brown sought to impose further on the British electorate.

yes some of the bad bits and only some GNV. the good bits are what exactly for the british electorate? Maggie from my recollection of things, was sick and tired of pouring money into the coffers, in fact much more than anyone else. so she won a rebate/reduction call it what you will, for the british taxpayer. The money we pay now is billions of pounds a year, and a lot goes to bailing out other numpty countries who thought they were very smart joining the euro, only for these so called clever arses, to skinting there own countries. we put in far more than we take out, and for that i am sick and tired and I would want out.
That nice Mr Bliar undid most of the good work Maggie had done in clawing back significant rebates but at the end of it all, you have to see the benefits in terms of "ya put nowt in, ya gets nowt out". So was Mr Bliar right to forgoe some of the rebate?
In France and Spain, the only two European States I have recent knowledge of, much of their road building program is funded by the community so they are getting a fair share of the pot. The same is, I believe, of other of the 'newer' States too so there is a clear benefit. You have to be in it to win it.

Quote by star
The strap-line "in Europe but not ruled by Europe" is where most British people want to be; not in a United States of Europe so it is by far too simplistic just to say "in or out". That would likely result in a resounding "in" vote which is Cameroon's stated position but he can't let the LibDems have too much of their own way, can he!

to trade with europe by all means. to be able to have other peeple from member states free to come and go as they please, to settle here as they please, to work here as they please, no thank you very much GNV. the market place is now dictated in many areas because of european workers, and certainl;y to the detriment of BRITISH workers. that is not what the peeple in the 70's voted for, and i am sure that has they known then how things would be now, the vote would never have been a yes.
if you believe that a vote of in or out right now would probably mean an in vote, you i believe are wrong, and i also believe so do the majority of politicians. if they thought for a second that it would be a stay in vote, the government would just shut everyone up and have that vote.
Please don't forget that the UK is a major player in European financial services with significant players in London paying significant amounts of tax to the UK exchequer and contributing much towards the UK's balance of payments. John Major didn't sign up to the Schengen accord meaning that the UK's borders are secure (at least in theory!) so Europeans cannot come and go as much as they please and balance that against the ability of British citizens to come and go as they please within Europe once they have cleared customs anywhere in the continent of Europe. So now, you can get the ferry to Calais and once through the border control at the port you can go where you like in the whole community without having to be checked at borders. Each Member State has it's own rules about residency, France no exception, and Spain is also now drafting new sets of rules to ensure that immigrants from within the community do not become a burden on the State. If the UK has not exploited that capability, it is her own fault - not that of the Community!
If the British people were not so fickle about doing 'dirty' jobs themselves, there would be less of a market for other Community workers to under-cut British workers but the truth of the matter is somewhat different, as you well know. Polish builders will work their socks off for a pittance whilst the good old Brit Builder wants a fortune to get out bed and more fag and tea breaks than you can shake a stick at! And who pays them? The Brits of course!! So don't give me that crap about British jobs for British people. The reality is very much different!

Quote by star
Not until the Deputy PM has secured his place at the Commission's top table, that is and back where he belongs

Clegg could not run his own bath unaided GNV. have any of these peeple done a proper days work in there lives i wonder? they come from the scratch my back brigade. as an aside i wish both cameron and coe would piss off somewhere in europe, far away from the rest of Britain, neither one would be missed by me.
What has Coe to do with this?
I'm not sure he even expressed much of an opinion about Europe when he was an MP and he seems not to be of the Clegg "I must get back on the gravy train" variety. Despite the problems with the ticketing, the security et al, he has performed well as an embassador for the UK in getting the show on the road. Already a Peer of the Realm there is little other reward he could have had his sights on when taking the job on (perhaps unlike some others one could mention). He's a good egg; he was good at his sport and has worked hard for the benefit of his Country. Brits should be proud of their inheritance and not condemn someone so accomplished as Lord Coe just on some dubious whim.

31 Jul 2012

Quote by GnV
If the British people were not so fickle about doing 'dirty' jobs themselves, there would be less of a market for other Community workers to under-cut British workers but the truth of the matter is somewhat different, as you well know. Polish builders will work their socks off for a pittance whilst the good old Brit Builder wants a fortune to get out bed and more fag and tea breaks than you can shake a stick at! And who pays them? The Brits of course!! So don't give me that crap about British jobs for British people. The reality is very much different!

that comment can only ever come from either an employer, or an ex employer.
polish peeple as an example can afford to work for an hour as there expenses are a lot lower as they tend to live 20 to a house. even at an hour, that is still double what they can earn in Poland.
They have undercut british workers hugely for many reasons but not the ones that have clouded your employer judgement on the way british peeple work. I bet your past staff had no chance of bunking off to the Doctors eh? No flys on you GNV. lol

the simple FACT of the matter is that migrant workers share facilities with many of there own, sometimes 20 peeple sharing one house so as to split the bills, british workers do not do that. polish workers have very little work in poland and even if they do, they would be lucky to earn £400 a month. For women in poland it is worse as there wages would be around £260 a month.
not every british worker wants £500 a day wages, and sit on there bums all day as well. that is an insult to many millions of workers who work damn hard, and struggle to get by and support there families, so as to keep employers living in there big houses, and there flash cars, and then when all is done can afford to piss off abroad and retire. Still british workers are lazy feckers after all eh ?

1 Aug 2012

GnV wrote that there are "a lot of good bits" about being in the EU. Kindly tell us of one worth the each per day membership fee (latest figure, produced by Professor of Economics Tim Congdon) if you would, GnV.
Please do not mention "peace in our time" (the oft quoted one) as that has been secured by NATO.

1 Aug 2012

Quote by GregSH
GnV wrote that there are "a lot of good bits" about being in the EU. Kindly tell us of one worth the each per day membership fee (latest figure, produced by Professor of Economics Tim Congdon) if you would, GnV.
Please do not mention "peace in our time" (the oft quoted one) as that has been secured by NATO.

Can I suggest that G wait until you've answered some of the questions put to you .... you really are involved in politics aren't you
Evasive ... now there's a word

1 Aug 2012

sorry to point out the obvious,but why would the British public vote for an organisation that would effectively become extinct once they was voted in
ukip would cease to exist once we left Europe lol

:lol:

1 Aug 2012

Quote by GregSH
GnV wrote that there are "a lot of good bits" about being in the EU. Kindly tell us of one worth the each per day membership fee (latest figure, produced by Professor of Economics Tim Congdon) if you would, GnV.
Please do not mention "peace in our time" (the oft quoted one) as that has been secured by NATO.

It's all too easy to be anecdotal about the individual benefits of membership of any organisation without looking at the wider picture.
Greg's response is not untypical of the political genre to which he has already claimed association and in a way is no different to the often heard argument that if an individual taxpayer doesn't have children, why should their tax bill include a proportion towards the costs of education or the payment of child allowances.
It's all well and good to demand examples in order to force some obscure point or other home but in truth it serves no practical purpose, so I'm not going to be drawn on that point.
Désolé.
What I will say though is this, as I have often said before in this forum, Europe - in particular the unelected Commission - needs to have a reality check. It is by far too unwieldy, expensive and unaccountable and thereby lacks credibility in the minds of many. In some cases, it can easily be likened to the dictatorships that it has contributed so much towards removing of late. it's only saving grace, if indeed one exists, is the structure by which the Parliaments of Member States can be minded to ignore the dictats and go about their own peaceful democratic existence, if only they would choose to do so to the exclusion of everything else undemocratic.
But no, once safely ensconced in the relative safety of their political bubble, the machine of government kicks in (at whatever level) and those who sought election on a platform demanding change, eventually succumb to the will of the 'greater' good as their political skills are diverted towards convincing their fellow countrymen that they really are making a difference when in reality, nothing changes.
The massive machine of the self perpetuating, self congratulatory European Commision rumbles on unfettered by newcomers at the trough.

1 Aug 2012

Quote by starlightcouple
that comment can only ever come from either an employer, or an ex employer.

Well observed star :thumbup:

Quote by star
polish peeple as an example can afford to work for an hour as there expenses are a lot lower as they tend to live 20 to a house. even at an hour, that is still double what they can earn in Poland.
They have undercut british workers hugely for many reasons but not the ones that have clouded your employer judgement on the way british peeple work. I bet your past staff had no chance of bunking off to the Doctors eh? No flys on you GNV.
the simple FACT of the matter is that migrant workers share facilities with many of there own, sometimes 20 peeple sharing one house so as to split the bills, british workers do not do that. polish workers have very little work in poland and even if they do, they would be lucky to earn £400 a month. For women in poland it is worse as there wages would be around £260 a month.

Not in my experience star.
I had recent contact with a Polish builder who was an absolute delight to watch at work. Very skilled and capable of turning his hand to anything. He doesn't live in a multi-tenemented situation in England as you describe but by working hard, has been able to afford to buy his own house which he has improved and recently sold taking the profit to buy another one for himself and his wife and a further one for his son to live in.
I can only speak as I find. Without the Poles and their work ethic, Britain would be more on it's knees than it is now.

Quote by star
not every british worker wants £500 a day wages, and sit on there bums all day as well. that is an insult to many millions of workers who work damn hard, and struggle to get by and support there families, so as to keep employers living in there big houses, and there flash cars, and then when all is done can afford to piss off abroad and retire. Still british workers are lazy feckers after all eh ?

I couldn't agree more about your view on there being a vast number of hard working British people.
Regrettably, it's the significant numbers of others which lets the side down.

1 Aug 2012

Quote by GnV
I had recent contact with a Polish builder who was an absolute delight to watch at work. Very skilled and capable of turning his hand to anything. He doesn't live in a multi-tenemented situation in England as you describe but by working hard, has been able to afford to buy his own house which he has improved and recently sold taking the profit to buy another one for himself and his wife and a further one for his son to live in.

not wanting to sound disbelieving in any way about your above story GNV, but how convenient of you, i know many and are nowhere near the standard of the person in your story, sorry i mean answer. you live in France and have done for a number of years now so how you know the working of how Britain works now, as far as migrant workers goes i cannot imagine.
from MY experience of working amongst over 18 poles and 7 south african asians, i can assure you that my story is much nearer fact than your is.:notes: they earn minimum wage as even they admit that there own fellow workers, have under cut all of them in some way or another, until the wages for them are at rock bottom, and many are now returning home.

Quote by GnV
I can only speak as I find. Without the Poles and their work ethic, Britain would be more on it's knees than it is now.

there is your problem GNV, you found a polish worker, a single polish worker where you live...great. in the real world they have come to the UK as there was no or very little work in there own countries. over here if a polish bricklayer earned £1000 a month, he could still afford to send £400 of that money back home to his family, and they do. what british worker can survive on £1000 a month in the real world of rent and rates? very few as they cannot possibly compete with migrant workers crammed 20 to a house and paying no rates per month either. they share everything and that is a major factor as to why they can under cut british workers so easily.

Quote by GnV
Regrettably, it's the significant numbers of others which lets the side down.

you read to many newspapers GNV. have you any evidence of this at all, that you would like to share with us all? as i stated previously, typical sniping comments from an ex employer, who has done alright it seems out of there employees, or were you just very lucky to have got some of the very few good british workers? rolleyes