Vive la France

23 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I find the correlation deeply disturbing too. Which is why I think it needs to be voiced. Taking offence is the prerogative of the individual of course especially when none is offered.

so what would you do with them bengy ??

23 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I find the correlation deeply disturbing too. Which is why I think it needs to be voiced. Taking offence is the prerogative of the individual of course especially when none is offered.

With the greatest respect Ben, are you saying that the French should not be aloud to enforce their laws upon these persons?

23 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I find the correlation deeply disturbing too. Which is why I think it needs to be voiced. Taking offence is the prerogative of the individual of course especially when none is offered.

In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

23 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV
In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

It will indeed be interesting to see if that is against the AUP.

23 Aug 2010

Quote by northwest-cpl

In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

It will indeed be interesting to see if that is against the AUP.
Indeed, I had it in writing only today from Admin. Privacy rules of course probably prevent me from posting the full content of the PM wink

23 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV

In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

It will indeed be interesting to see if that is against the AUP.
Indeed, I had it in writing only today from Admin. Privacy rules of course probably prevent me from posting the full content of the PM wink

That's good then because there are a lot of deliberately inflammatory posts that are intended to be offensive that might need to be reported. :wink: I can see admin being kept busy if that is the case.

23 Aug 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
I find the correlation deeply disturbing too. Which is why I think it needs to be voiced. Taking offence is the prerogative of the individual of course especially when none is offered.

so what would you do with them bengy ??
bump lol

23 Aug 2010

I would punish law breakers in accordance with local custom. A sentence of transportation for begging seems a little old fashioned and dracconian.

23 Aug 2010

Quote by northwest-cpl
That's good then because there are a lot of deliberately inflammatory posts that are intended to be offensive that might need to be reported. icon_ I can see admin being kept busy if that is the case.

That is of course your opinion, but thankfully it is not your opinion that matters, but the site owners.
What one person finds offensive another will not, it is all about perceptions...is it not?
The politically correct brigade is alive and well on the www.

23 Aug 2010

Dunno what the big deal is here????
The French have always done what is right for France and sod everyone else. Meanwhile we Brits worry far too much about what others might think of us and therefore end up with fudged compromises.
Nothing new here.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Too Hot
Dunno what the big deal is here????
The French have always done what is right for France and sod everyone else. Meanwhile we Brits worry far too much about what others might think of us and therefore end up with fudged compromises.
Nothing new here.

:thumbup::thumbup:

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I would punish law breakers in accordance with local custom. A sentence of transportation for begging seems a little old fashioned and dracconian.

and the organised crime part ??
its lawful in most country's and often practiced that visitors who break the law are deported
so that's sorted then :thumbup:

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I would punish law breakers in accordance with local custom. A sentence of transportation for begging seems a little old fashioned and dracconian.

In most of Europe, to settle in a Country which is not your place of birth but one you are entitled to freedom of movement, you need to prove that you will not be a burden on the State and that you will be paying taxes and contributions to the State health system, amongst other things. In France, there are single taxation treaties with the UK (so you only pay tax once) and those not contributing to healthcare system need to have appropriate insurance in place or evidence that they have sufficient funds to cover their stay. That's the Law.
So, in accordance with local custom, those who are unable to provide sufficient provenance will be removed from the country - not as a draconian measure but as a fully up-to-date modern society would expect and entirely within the rule of Law. Unlike the UK, healthcare in France is not free at the point of delivery. You have to pay for it. The fees are recovered from the State provided you have paid into the pot and the amount you get back depends on a number of factors. In many cases you only get back between 60% and 80% of the amount actually paid against the statutory tariff set by the Government, the remainder from insurance. This can often mean that unhealthy habits in illegally set up quarters can mean the rapid spread of disease placing the rest of the populace at considerable risk. It is right and proper that Governments act to protect those who are legally entitled to be resident and operate within the rule of Law.
Add to that then considerable illegal activity of certain factions (robbing banks, child prostitution rings etc) and you should not have much difficulty in seeing that the French are entirely within their rights to take effective legal action to protect their citizens.
How should things be different?

24 Aug 2010

Quote by GnV
I would punish law breakers in accordance with local custom. A sentence of transportation for begging seems a little old fashioned and dracconian.

In most of Europe, to settle in a Country which is not your place of birth but one you are entitled to freedom of movement, you need to prove that you will not be a burden on the State and that you will be paying taxes and contributions to the State health system, amongst other things. In France, there are single taxation treaties with the UK (so you only pay tax once) and those not contributing to healthcare system need to have appropriate insurance in place or evidence that they have sufficient funds to cover their stay. That's the Law.
So, in accordance with local custom, those who are unable to provide sufficient provenance will be removed from the country - not as a draconian measure but as a fully up-to-date modern society would expect and entirely within the rule of Law. Unlike the UK, healthcare in France is not free at the point of delivery. You have to pay for it. The fees are recovered from the State provided you have paid into the pot and the amount you get back depends on a number of factors. In many cases you only get back between 60% and 80% of the amount actually paid against the statutory tariff set by the Government, the remainder from insurance. This can often mean that unhealthy habits in illegally set up quarters can mean the rapid spread of disease placing the rest of the populace at considerable risk. It is right and proper that Governments act to protect those who are legally entitled to be resident and operate within the rule of Law.
Add to that then considerable illegal activity of certain factions (robbing banks, child prostitution rings etc) and you should not have much difficulty in seeing that the French are entirely within their rights to take effective legal action to protect their citizens.
How should things be different?
i take it that those citizens are constructed of many religions and other minorities GnV
wink

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Lizaleanrob
snip...
i take it that those citizens are constructed of many religions and other minorities GnV

In France there is no concept of ethnicity. You are either French or you are not. If you are not French and you choose not to respect the enormous hospitality offered by this great State, you can expect to be leaving tout de suite!!
And quite rightly so!

24 Aug 2010

Sounds to me GNV that the French do things very well.
Britain could learn a thing or two from them.
Our NHS and our schools and most other public services are in many areas so over run, purely because of the ammount of extra people here.
I get sick to the back teeth of Johny Foreigner coming here and contributing nothing, yet getting all the benefits for free.
France seem to have things down to a tee and I believe that you should contribute something BEFORE you are allowed to get something from the system.
One of the many many reasons why this country is skint, and also is a laughing stock.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
That's good then because there are a lot of deliberately inflammatory posts that are intended to be offensive that might need to be reported. icon_ I can see admin being kept busy if that is the case.

That is of course your opinion, but thankfully it is not your opinion that matters, but the site owners.
What one person finds offensive another will not, it is all about perceptions...is it not?
The politically correct brigade is alive and well on the www.
As usual you only highlight part of a post and take that part out of context. I've taken the liberty of highlighting the part to which I was replying. It seems, according to GnV's pm from admin that it is against the AUP to deliberately post things that the poster knows will offend people. If the pm is correct then it is not merely 'my opinion' but the site owner's opinion.

Quote by GnV
In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

Quote by GnV
Indeed, I had it in writing only today from Admin. Privacy rules of course probably prevent me from posting the full content of the PM

24 Aug 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
snip...
France seem to have things down to a tee and I believe that you should contribute something BEFORE you are allowed to get something from the system.
One of the many many reasons why this country is skint, and also is a laughing stock.

Don't get me wrong.. there are bad points about France as much as there are anywhere else in the world but this quote from the English translation of the President's book Testimony sums up the French resolve..
"With this book, I would like to explain that nothing is impossible for who dares to try, for who dares to undertake. In a changing world, nothing could be worst for our country as well as for all the French than maintaining the status quo.
I like to build up, to act, to solve problems. Nothing ventured, nothing gained and every effort pays off. That is what I believe in. That is why I am in politics, and why, according to me, it is worth conquering the greatest responsibilities. That is what I want to tell you.”

24 Aug 2010

Quote by northwest-cpl
snip.. (for clarity)
As usual you only highlight part of a post and take that part out of context. I've taken the liberty of highlighting the part to which I was replying. It seems, according to GnV's pm from admin that it is against the AUP to deliberately post things that the poster knows will offend people. If the pm is correct then it is not merely 'my opinion' but the site owner's opinion.

Quote by GnV
In this case, the intended recipient is offended and thus, under SH rules your comment is against the AUP.

That of course is true, but the point I actually made earlier in the thread is "it's how it's received by the intended audience/recipient that makes a remark offensive". In other words, the poster may not necessarily intend to offend but may do so nonetheless.
I then added to that by confirming that I was indeed offended (and still am) by the remark about the French exterminating people which has not been retracted by the poster and which I shall now formally raise as a complaint.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by northwest-cpl
from admin that it is against the AUP to deliberately post things that the poster knows will offend people

How does one know what things will offend what people?
There are always people that will be offended by ANYTHING,and on that basis you would not be able to say anything on here.
I am sure that admin get swamped by a few members everyday over something that THEY deem to be offensive.
I post what I post because that is how I see things, I get sick and tired of all this hatred crap that I get accused of. The leftys PC attitude.
It is just another way of trying to shut people, no different to calling people racists purely because they object to immigration issues....it has now become societys way of shutting people up.
Admin will decide what is acceptable on here, not someone who has nothing better to do than to complain about everything on here, just because someone does not like what someone posts.
Running to headmaster every five minutes is childish in the extreme, and proves that an arguement cannot be won by the usual means.
As I have said before, it is all about perceptions as to what someone means when they write something, and the persons perception of how they read something, and everyone has different perceptions.
I see no hatred on here only strong opinions, and that is what free speech is all about.
Complaining constantly is tiresome and quite frankly laughable.
:thumbup:

24 Aug 2010

I still think France is cocking a snoop at the freedom of movement inherent in EU legislation by using a loop hole. It will never go to court of course because the oppressed minority don't have a voice.
It was ever thus.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
I still think France is cocking a snoop at the freedom of movement inherent in EU legislation by using a loop hole. It will never go to court of course because the oppressed minority don't have a voice.
It was ever thus.

I can't agree with you there Ben. Romania enjoys membership of the EU and its voice is entitled by European Law to be heard all over Europe and beyond. And it is.
When a section of society disenfranchises itself from the body which gives it Legality, they may well lose certain rights. This is certainly the case with the Roma who seek to pursue lawlessness in their host Country, France.
There is no loophole. It is enshrined in EU Law, and so it should be, that the right to freedom of movement is forfeit in the event that an individual or group of individuals shows such disregard for the Rule of Law as to make such action inevitable.
A "loop hole" if memory serves, is where the Rule of Law is silent on an issue and thereby open to exploitation/interpretation. That is NOT the case here.
The Roma who conduct their lives in France in accordance with the Rule of Law have nothing to fear from the French. The Executive have already said that they retain the right to freedom of movement in France, rightly so.
I'm trying desperately to understand why you are apparently so anti-French.

24 Aug 2010

Anti French? What a ridiculous accusation.
"There is no loophole. It is enshrined in EU Law, and so it should be, that the right to freedom of movement is forfeit in the event that an individual or group of individuals shows such disregard for the Rule of Law as to make such action inevitable. "
Are you sure? I don't think it is. However I would agree that the european constitution did little to recognise the rights of indigenous itinerant peoples.

24 Aug 2010

Are their rights not forfeited by shooting policemen? dunno

24 Aug 2010

The point I'm making here is that from what i gather, the Roma that are being deported are the ones who are occupying illegal camps. The indiginous folk that are living by the law of the land are not being 'vitimised' and kicked out.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Anti French? What a ridiculous accusation.

If I could cut and paste all your anti French postings, like the one in this thread about the French exterminating the Roma, I don't think the server could bear the surge in bandwidth despite SH's best efforts in having new servers installed. wink

Quote by Ben_welshminx
"There is no loophole. It is enshrined in EU Law, and so it should be, that the right to freedom of movement is forfeit in the event that an individual or group of individuals shows such disregard for the Rule of Law as to make such action inevitable. "
Are you sure? I don't think it is. However I would agree that the european constitution did little to recognise the rights of indigenous itinerant peoples.

Perhaps you have a source of reference to disprove what I have said?
As for the apparent lack of recognition for the plight of indigenous itinerant peoples, have you consulted anyone about this as you seem to feel so strongly about it? I'd be interested to hear what positive action you have taken to improve and create a better life for them.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
Declaring that they are from one country or another is also not particually useful.

Is that not the whole point of this thread, or have I missed something?
It IS the most prevalent of things.
Jeeze.

24 Aug 2010

You may wish to withdraw these further allegations about ME.

Quote by GnV
Anti French? What a ridiculous accusation.

If I could cut and paste all your anti French postings, like the one in this thread about the French exterminating the Roma, I don't think the server could bear the surge in bandwidth despite SH's best efforts in having new servers installed. wink

Quote by Ben_welshminx
"There is no loophole. It is enshrined in EU Law, and so it should be, that the right to freedom of movement is forfeit in the event that an individual or group of individuals shows such disregard for the Rule of Law as to make such action inevitable. "
Are you sure? I don't think it is. However I would agree that the european constitution did little to recognise the rights of indigenous itinerant peoples.

Perhaps you have a source of reference to disprove what I have said?
As for the apparent lack of recognition for the plight of indigenous itinerant peoples, have you consulted anyone about this as you seem to feel so strongly about it? I'd be interested to hear what positive action you have taken to improve and create a better life for them.

24 Aug 2010

Quote by vampanya
The point I'm making here is that from what i gather, the Roma that are being deported are the ones who are occupying illegal camps. The indiginous folk that are living by the law of the land are not being 'vitimised' and kicked out.

:thumbup:
Yes that is correct, and just how I read it
*QUOTE* President Sarkozy has ordered the police to break up 300 illegal Roma camps, and there are plans - starting today - to deport 700 of them.
I see no problem with this situation, people are breaking the law and must be stopped from doing so. They must live within the French law just as the French must!
Or are we to say certain people can flout the laws?

24 Aug 2010

Quote by Kaznkev
snip...
As i said it is hard for us to understand a very different idea towards nationhood.i suppose an analogy could be drawn(very loosely)with the Jewish of Jewish maternal descent can move to Israel and become a national of that country,the cultural/religious definition overides you have Ethiopians and Russian far right skin heads both claiming to belong to the same nation.
Nationhood is a very complex thing,the idea of a nation state even more might make a good thread for someone to start.

This one is serving quite well in that respect if the OP agrees but it would be a shame for someone to come along with an alternate agenda causing it to be locked or withdrawn. :sad:
The concept of cultural/religious definition overriding nationality is an interesting one.
Could this mean that if a nation is predominately of one definition, it might be the source of disagreement leading to civil disorder. I'm no expert in this area but I'm sure others might have a more informed view about how this might (or not) relate to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict since you mention Israel and the Jewish Diaspora. Is it a factor?
For my part, I prefer a multi-cultural/religious mix where religious definition or ethnicity is of no consequence to the inhabitants. Can this can lead to a more harmonious lifestyle? It certainly seems to work in France.