Welfare Reform II - the new outline

29 May 2010

The current Benefit system is complex (the Handbook runs to 1,784 pages).
Mr. Duncan Smith's organisation (The Centre for Social Justice) think tank, has produced a 372 page report that is downloadable from their Website. It proposes a new "Dynamic Benefit" system that is more flexible to get people back to work without them being worse off, whatever their circumstances. There will be just two components, a brief outine follows:-
UNIVERSAL WORK CREDIT, for those out of work or on very low wages. This will combine: Job Seekers Allowance (JSA), Income Support (Income Support), Incapacity Benefit(historic)/Employment and Support Allowance (IB/ESA).
UNIVERSAL LIFE CREDIT, to cover additional living expenses for those on low incomes. This will combine Housing Benefit (HB), Council Tax Benefit (CTB), Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Working Tax Credit (WTC) and Child Tax Credit (CTC).
Since 1974 (to my knowledge) a number of people have advocated radical change, but in different forms. The most recent notable one was Frank Field for New Labour before they came to power in the late 90s, but in my view Tony Blair double crossed him (and me, because I voted for them on balance on this issue. :twisted smile

Now that Mr. Duncan-Smith is in office, he is keen to try to implement this vision. To be fair to David Cameron and his LIB DEM allies, they are giving him the rope he needs.
Plim :thumbup:

24 Jun 2010

My personal feeling is that the benefit system needs to change in this country. The time has come to get those who are fully capable of working but instead choose to collect benefits off of the system. I know there are many who feel getting those off of benefits into work is a bit harsh especially if it means they will loose money. Reality is the system is meant to be a temporary measure to help people to re-establish themselves, not be a way of life. In addition it creates a massive expense on the government and forces the government to become more reliant on non-EU immigration. Bill Clinton in the US changed the system and gave those on "benefits" in the US a route off of them. By doing that he was able to balance the budget, create a budget surplus, and bring about economic growth to the US while ensuring people do not suffer an economic hardship while transitioning from "benefits" to work. At least from my perspective I feel such a change is needed.

24 Jun 2010

Yes.
But the US has a plethora of jobs.
The Uk has exported most of its production and large areas remaining are dependent upon things like roads etc.
Getting people working has a nice ring to it.
Getting people off things like "sick-pay" (by whatever name it has this/next week) is a noble intention.
Those with "bad backs" can get jobs digging holes (except we have suspended hole digging while "we" look at the costs)
Of course, those who HAVE bad backs cannot dig holes...and the doctors that say they can are not even doctors, but "health professionals" (AKA Occy_Health therapists) (in fact...FACT...most of the health professionals that decide whether a person is fit for work (by the governments private health companies) are neither nurses or doctors...and in many cases their "advice" pays no attention to the facts of the case that are provided by PRIMARY health professionals (doctors or nurses).
Another minor problem coming to the fore is this: Companies do not like to hire people with health related problems. Apart from the not-being-able-to-work-as-hard-as-the-rest there are problems with insurance. Then there is the training aspect to getting back to work. The law requires people operating equipment to be trained in its safe use, and that the employer provide that training (free) and any subsequent provision of protective equipment has also to be free.
Employers prefer to hire those already trained.
Of course, the government has already said that it is looking at relaxing large areas of H&S (which it will be in conflict with the EU over)
But then, if you are not going to have "sick-pay" it makes no difference if people get injured........................
The reason we are "reliant" on immigration is because we are having less children. And we are training less people. So we poach those already trained.
Edit: just noticed this:

Now, the appointment of C-list TV presenter Kris Murrin, dubbed the ‘stir-fry psychobabbler’ by delighted tabloids, shows that the Lib-Con coalition wants to continue the trend of inviting eccentric advisers into the corridors of power. In fact, Murrin is more than an adviser – she has been appointed to the higher echelons of the Civil Service as head of prime minister David Cameron’s ‘implementation unit’, on a salary rumoured to be close to £150,000. Her appointment has reportedly left some at Whitehall ‘bewildered’. That is hardly surprising: an overview of her career so far suggests she is a rather bewildering individual

The negative reaction of the public was a welcome riposte to Murrin’s hectoring. In one episode, a man from Boston, Lincolnshire shouted at her angrily: ‘I’ve worked all my bloody life for what I’ve got there. I’m not going to let some toffee-nosed twit tell me what I can do and what I can’t do.’ The only things lower than Murrin’s opinions of the British public were the ratings for her anti-car TV show.

24 Jun 2010

I have a bad back. It's really feckin sore actually. I can honestly say it has changed my life. Telling you that for no reason other than some people REALLY do have bad backs.
However.......
Do I work? Yes, because I am lucky that I am able to work at home if I feel unwell. I am a higher rate tax payer and I will be worse off after yesterday. However, if I did not have a job that allows me to work at home when I am unwell I would have no choice but to go off sick and take the consequences. I am assuming that would be lose my house, live on benefits, and be poor for the rest of my life. I am not planning on becoming poor any time soon, so if I have to crawl to work, I will do.
That said, there are people who would love to have a job to crawl to, but they don't. There are many people who genuinely cannot work, or cannot find work, for many reasons. Don't lump those that cannot work with those that WILL NOT work. There is a massive difference. I am sure everyone who is reading this appreciates that.
Having said all that, the benefits system does need to change. But that change needs to be fair. Medical assessments for DLA -- fine... provided those medical assessments are done by qualified medical professionals who are experts in the conditions they are assessing. I assume that will be the case, will it? And if so, how much will that cost exactly?
If I was in charge... you would all love that hehehehehehe..... I would make ALL benefits means tested including cold weather payments for the elderly and child benefit. My dad is quite well off, he got a cold weather payment last year. Why? Isn't that just a waste of money? It seems fair to me to give benefits to those who need them, not those who don't.
And I am all for making benefits harder to claim, PROVIDED there are jobs there for people who want to work. That isn't the case though, at the moment, is it?
My point? I don't really have one. Just don't slag off people with bad backs, or I'll come and kick ya :-)))

24 Jun 2010

Dunno what is like round your way but round here there are more people than jobs. I spose we could make the poor even poorer or keep these things as they are or make the more wealthy less wealthy. Thats all benefit systems are yaknow a method of redistributing wealth to the less well off.

24 Jun 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Dunno what is like round your way but round here there are more people than jobs. I spose we could make the poor even poorer or keep these things as they are or make the more wealthy less wealthy. Thats all benefit systems are yaknow a method of redistributing wealth to the less well off.

Again I agree with Ben, but I have to say the system needs fine tuning to reduce the false claims, or over payments. Sometimes I get upset when I see people out of work having a better standard of living than those working hard

24 Jun 2010

Having said all that, the benefits system does need to change. But that change needs to be fair. Medical assessments for DLA -- fine... provided those medical assessments are done by qualified medical professionals who are experts in the conditions they are assessing. I assume that will be the case, will it? And if so, how much will that cost exactly?

You may well ask.
At the moment assessments are carried-out by private occupational health companies.
The NHS has an excellent occupational health service.

24 Jun 2010

i think all benefits should be stopped to everyone. that would make some fuckers wake up and realise what is really going on. close hospitals, schools, meals on wheels, stop housing benefit, unemployment benefit, disabled benefit, black benefit, white benefit, foreigner benefit and pay the banksters bonuses. oh, and increase taxation for those who cant go offshore and fiddle the books. and let those on the gravy train decide who should have and those who should not.
to big to fails and too small too save. ffs, wake the fuck up !

24 Jun 2010

Quote by flower411
If the jobs are not there, why do so many people come from other countries to work ??
Of course the jobs are there !! It`s just that some people don`t want to do them when they can sit at home watching the shopping channel on the tele while their bills are paid by the people who work.

the jobs people come over here to do are farm fruit packers and restaurant workers, most earn little over £3 per living on £65 per week dole,then tell me people dont want to work!!.most of us live in the real world,where do you live ?.

24 Jun 2010

Quote by Bear69
If the jobs are not there, why do so many people come from other countries to work ??
Of course the jobs are there !! It`s just that some people don`t want to do them when they can sit at home watching the shopping channel on the tele while their bills are paid by the people who work.

the jobs people come over here to do are farm fruit packers and restaurant workers, most earn little over £3 per living on £65 per week dole,then tell me people dont want to work!!.most of us live in the real world,where do you live ?.
What is wrong with farm work, fruit packing, restaurant work? I think they are wider employed than that, holiday camps like Butlins employ many, builders, fitters and cleaners, etc
I thought the minimum wage was more than £3 per hour dunno

24 Jun 2010

Quote by Bear69
the jobs people come over here to do are farm fruit packers and restaurant workers, most earn little over £3 per living on £65 per week dole,then tell me people dont want to work!!.most of us live in the real world,where do you live ?.

Are you really being serious by suggesting those are the only jobs they do?
I live in the real world.....where do you live? lol

There are plumbers and electricians...check the stats for how many foreign workers are working on the Olympic site for starters.
We employ two Poles and one South African, the other units where mine is employ Nigerians and Poles and an Iraqi and three Pakistanis, and there are others too. The jobs they do have nothing whatsoever to do with your two professions that you have mentioned above.
A stereotypical outlook on what foreign workers do. But so far away from the real truth.

24 Jun 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
A stereotypical outlook on what foreign workers do. But so far away from the real truth.

Agreed.
I work on the railways, and I have worked on the Stratford (London) station redevelopment, and there were a number of Asians on site, and I was told they all lived in one house, were bought to site via minibus, and got a pitifully low wage - the house and minibus were taken out of their wages by the employer, who arranged the house and minibus.
This is just one site where this happens, on a lot of projects, especially civils rather than rail based, there are lots of low paid foreign workers.

24 Jun 2010

Quote by essex34m

A stereotypical outlook on what foreign workers do. But so far away from the real truth.

Agreed.
I work on the railways, and I have worked on the Stratford (London) station redevelopment, and there were a number of Asians on site, and I was told they all lived in one house, were bought to site via minibus, and got a pitifully low wage - the house and minibus were taken out of their wages by the employer, who arranged the house and minibus.
This is just one site where this happens, on a lot of projects, especially civils rather than rail based, there are lots of low paid foreign workers.
Surely Essex they are covered by the minimum wage IF they are working on a station redevelopment scheme?
I know the minimum wage is low but is a lot more than 3 quid an hour as someone suggested they earn?

24 Jun 2010

Quote by kentswingers777

A stereotypical outlook on what foreign workers do. But so far away from the real truth.

Agreed.
I work on the railways, and I have worked on the Stratford (London) station redevelopment, and there were a number of Asians on site, and I was told they all lived in one house, were bought to site via minibus, and got a pitifully low wage - the house and minibus were taken out of their wages by the employer, who arranged the house and minibus.
This is just one site where this happens, on a lot of projects, especially civils rather than rail based, there are lots of low paid foreign workers.
Surely Essex they are covered by the minimum wage IF they are working on a station redevelopment scheme?
I know the minimum wage is low but is a lot more than 3 quid an hour as someone suggested they earn?
But who would ensure these people would get a fair deal? You want to get rid of the "clipboard carrying waste of space" as they do nothing of any good........or do you only think they should be in place if you agree with the legislation?
Dave_Notts

24 Jun 2010

Etc
Etc
Quite common. Most are just glad to get anything.
Loads do "self employed" work, as van drivers, pizza delivery etc (ignoring the revenue who generally don't allow this sort of self employment)
I'd do it myself....except for the 1300 quid for the insurance to deliver fast-food....and the minor problem of having to declare self employment...and then having to pay estimated earnings...and NI.
If I could pee-off back to poland I may consider it.....Oh, and they also get working tax credit if they have kids...even if they do not live here....
As it is, I do temp jobs for employment "agencies" (I don't actually work for anyone.....I have to provide my own PPE and get turfed-out at notice)...if I'm lucky the agency will pay my deductions to the revenue....oh, and the max length of "employment" is 12 weeks....otherwise there are problems with the funny-people having to pay holiday money.
And LOADS of foreigns "work" for agencies.....try the largest company for books in the uk.....6-day shifts of 10 hours-per-shift (rotating) walking 12 miles a day fetching and carrying...own boots...own hi-viz.....no parking (PT only)(and none after midnight)no holiday pay and bye-bye if sick, all for
Employment laws ?
Do we have any, and if we do, do we have anyone who pays any attention to them ?
Not in the agency jobs.
And if they don't pay the deductions you're fucked....you are still liable for them...

25 Jun 2010

Quote by kentswingers777
the jobs people come over here to do are farm fruit packers and restaurant workers, most earn little over £3 per living on £65 per week dole,then tell me people dont want to work!!.most of us live in the real world,where do you live ?.

Are you really being serious by suggesting those are the only jobs they do?
I live in the real world.....where do you live? lol

There are plumbers and electricians...check the stats for how many foreign workers are working on the Olympic site for starters.
We employ two Poles and one South African, the other units where mine is employ Nigerians and Poles and an Iraqi and three Pakistanis, and there are others too. The jobs they do have nothing whatsoever to do with your two professions that you have mentioned above.
A stereotypical outlook on what foreign workers do. But so far away from the real truth.
The lack of adequate, affordable family housing in the south east means that jobs on the olympic site are only accessible to single men willing to live in poor housing conditions. That's why there are so many young Poles, and other migrant workers there.

25 Jun 2010

looks like the so called cheap labour`s going home

25 Jun 2010

Quote by awayman
The lack of adequate, affordable family housing in the south east means that jobs on the olympic site are only accessible to single men willing to live in poor housing conditions. That's why there are so many young Poles, and other migrant workers there.

There are plenty of British people living everyday in the same conditions you describe.
They have no choice....nobody forces anyone to come and work here.
Surely they cannot leave their home land to come here to work, for shit living conditions and three quid an hour? If they did they would be mugs.
Many people who were born here cannot afford housing in the South East.....their choice to do so.

25 Jun 2010

Quote by bluexxx
I have a bad back. It's really feckin sore actually. I can honestly say it has changed my life. Telling you that for no reason other than some people REALLY do have bad backs.
However.......
Do I work? Yes, because I am lucky that I am able to work at home if I feel unwell. I am a higher rate tax payer and I will be worse off after yesterday. However, if I did not have a job that allows me to work at home when I am unwell I would have no choice but to go off sick and take the consequences. I am assuming that would be lose my house, live on benefits, and be poor for the rest of my life. I am not planning on becoming poor any time soon, so if I have to crawl to work, I will do.
That said, there are people who would love to have a job to crawl to, but they don't. There are many people who genuinely cannot work, or cannot find work, for many reasons. Don't lump those that cannot work with those that WILL NOT work. There is a massive difference. I am sure everyone who is reading this appreciates that.
Having said all that, the benefits system does need to change. But that change needs to be fair. Medical assessments for DLA -- fine... provided those medical assessments are done by qualified medical professionals who are experts in the conditions they are assessing. I assume that will be the case, will it? And if so, how much will that cost exactly?
If I was in charge... you would all love that hehehehehehe..... I would make ALL benefits means tested including cold weather payments for the elderly and child benefit. My dad is quite well off, he got a cold weather payment last year. Why? Isn't that just a waste of money? It seems fair to me to give benefits to those who need them, not those who don't.
And I am all for making benefits harder to claim, PROVIDED there are jobs there for people who want to work. That isn't the case though, at the moment, is it?
My point? I don't really have one. Just don't slag off people with bad backs, or I'll come and kick ya :-)))

I do agree with all of that. But there are some people who find it such good sport to slag off everyone and everything that doesn't fit into their world, and sometimes things they know bugger all about. Makes me sick to be honest.

26 Jun 2010

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Dunno what is like round your way but round here there are more people than jobs. I spose we could make the poor even poorer or keep these things as they are or make the more wealthy less wealthy. Thats all benefit systems are yaknow a method of redistributing wealth to the less well off.

how well informed on the social security system you are ben i guess your some sort of expert i`d hate to argue but i do believe hard working everyday people who also struggle contribute considerably to keeping some from having to get out of bed a do some work them selves
those who should be looked after are starved of resources by to many slackers
there is an invention called the bus also one called the motor car and a new thangled thing called a train many people use to travel to work ben. wink

living in an area that has more people than work is not much of an excuse for holding your hand out for dole and i do believe that dwp will reimburse and also contribute towards first weeks travel costs dunno

and with more workers leaving than entering the uk there will be a glut of good jobs for the likes of those who state their not qualified so such tasks as making beds, hoovering and picking apples cabbages etc will suit them just fine
knowing how well your versed with accountancy ben if your ever in need we do employ a full time book keeper you know every little helps processing petrol bills and like just generally claiming everything that`s tax deductible corporate gifts being one of my favorite wink

26 Jun 2010

**Chart** taken from HM treasury COMPLETE BUDGET report 2010, text from BBC news economics.
Regardless of what has been/is being said: Taken as a whole the "ringfencing" of the NHS means that the rest of the services are going to have much higher costs-reduction than would otherwise be the case.
I do not see how the economic model can be made to work by ignoring one of the highest-spending institutions. In fact I consider it inevitable that the promise to protect the NHS will be another broken promise: Quite soon as well.

Regardless, it's clear that the worst off will be hit worse by these changes than the middle classes, primarily because of the rise in VAT, which is only very slightly offset by the income tax cut. That is probably because relatively few people at this point in the income distribution earn enough to be paying income tax now

Quotes from

10 Jul 2010

Quote by Plimboy
The current Benefit system is complex (the Handbook runs to 1,784 pages).
Mr. Duncan Smith's organisation (The Centre for Social Justice) think tank, has produced a 372 page report that is downloadable from their Website. It proposes a new "Dynamic Benefit" system that is more flexible to get people back to work without them being worse off, whatever their circumstances. There will be just two components, a brief outine follows:-
UNIVERSAL WORK CREDIT, for those out of work or on very low wages. This will combine: Job Seekers Allowance (JSA), Income Support (Income Support), Incapacity Benefit(historic)/Employment and Support Allowance (IB/ESA).
UNIVERSAL LIFE CREDIT, to cover additional living expenses for those on low incomes. This will combine Housing Benefit (HB), Council Tax Benefit (CTB), Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Working Tax Credit (WTC) and Child Tax Credit (CTC).
Since 1974 (to my knowledge) a number of people have advocated radical change, but in different forms. The most recent notable one was Frank Field for New Labour before they came to power in the late 90s, but in my view Tony Blair double crossed him (and me, because I voted for them on balance on this issue. :twisted
Now that Mr. Duncan-Smith is in office, he is keen to try to implement this vision. To be fair to David Cameron and his LIB DEM allies, they are giving him the rope he needs.
Plim :thumbup:

And this is the same dickheads who have just told someone in watchet>>>> in somerset for the tory fuckwits.... who is needing a liver to live that he is not intitled to income support..
Wake up and smell the coffee beans about time theese arseholes got a reality check and find all theese jobs for all or shut up and be privatised like the rest end of

10 Jul 2010

Ignoring the fact that it ended some years ago and was replaced with employment support allowance....never mind.
When they get the 2.4 million back to work.....if.....maybe the jobs have been hiding....
Maybe they could also get around to simplifying the tax regulations.

12 Jul 2010

From the age of 16 I work right up until 6 years ago when I had my son who was born with disabilities. I had a mortgage on a 5 bedroomed house at the time and had a good life style.
I had to give up my career as a Director for a Computer Company sell my 5 bedroom house as I couldnt keep up with the mortgage and needed the money from the house sale to buy specialist equipment for my son.
I now spend on average 122 hours a week caring for my son and yet I only get a week thats an hour I get 46 hours off every 12 days. I have to live in a private rented house which costs £700 a month as the local council have a 12 year waiting list for a council house, yet how come some of the local council houses have been allocated to people from none European Countries.
The benefit system is so wrong they give more to the people who dont need the money and less to those that do. I know of several families who are having to try and raising money to be able to get their disabled children wheel chairs as the governement and other organisation who are ment to help just dont do anything. I'm currently need £3000 for specialist equipment for my son.
Each new government has said they want to change the Welfare System and nothing happens so I guess in another few years we will be getting the same from the next government.

13 Jul 2010

Quote by Sweet22couple
The current Benefit system is complex (the Handbook runs to 1,784 pages).
Mr. Duncan Smith's organisation (The Centre for Social Justice) think tank, has produced a 372 page report that is downloadable from their Website. It proposes a new "Dynamic Benefit" system that is more flexible to get people back to work without them being worse off, whatever their circumstances. There will be just two components, a brief outine follows:-
UNIVERSAL WORK CREDIT, for those out of work or on very low wages. This will combine: Job Seekers Allowance (JSA), Income Support (Income Support), Incapacity Benefit(historic)/Employment and Support Allowance (IB/ESA).
UNIVERSAL LIFE CREDIT, to cover additional living expenses for those on low incomes. This will combine Housing Benefit (HB), Council Tax Benefit (CTB), Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Working Tax Credit (WTC) and Child Tax Credit (CTC).
Since 1974 (to my knowledge) a number of people have advocated radical change, but in different forms. The most recent notable one was Frank Field for New Labour before they came to power in the late 90s, but in my view Tony Blair double crossed him (and me, because I voted for them on balance on this issue. :twisted
Now that Mr. Duncan-Smith is in office, he is keen to try to implement this vision. To be fair to David Cameron and his LIB DEM allies, they are giving him the rope he needs.
Plim :thumbup:

And this is the same dickheads who have just told someone in watchet>>>> in somerset for the tory fuckwits.... who is needing a liver to live that he is not intitled to income support..
/quote]
The point of this is not relating to those who cannot work because of illness, but to those who can work but cannot get off benefits due them paying more than low paid work.
Plim

13 Jul 2010

Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread. We will just have to see if the proposals are actually introduced by the new government and if so, to what extent they work in practice.
Plim

Are you sure?