you just woke up on average £200 worse off

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Max777

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
[The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

Im H.A.P.P.Y....I know I am, I'm sure I am....... :sad:

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Max777

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.
I wont labour the point Max .... I don't think that the argument as a whole is in any way dependant on the reading of that sketch,so I shan't be strolling up that particular blind alley with you

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.
I wont labour the point Max .... I don't think that the argument as a whole is in any way dependant on the reading of that sketch,so I shan't be strolling up that particular blind alley with you
I'll take that as an admission you're wrong then Stagger.....I'm sure the hints are there
wink

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Max777

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.
I wont labour the point Max .... I don't think that the argument as a whole is in any way dependant on the reading of that sketch,so I shan't be strolling up that particular blind alley with you
I'll take that as an admission you're wrong then Stagger.....I'm sure the hints are there
wink

you may take it however you wish Max .....as I said the argument does not depend on a comedy sketch

8 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.
I wont labour the point Max .... I don't think that the argument as a whole is in any way dependant on the reading of that sketch,so I shan't be strolling up that particular blind alley with you
I'll take that as an admission you're wrong then Stagger.....I'm sure the hints are there
wink

you may take it however you wish Max .....as I said the argument does not depend on a comedy sketch
Maybe not but the way in which you view the comedy sketch is indicative of your argument.

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The roots lie much deeper than that .....see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

sorry staggers but i think you need to look at the British people for the failings in the the British industrial economy
in order for a strike to work and especially one such as the miners strike you need the backing of the people
to hold the government to ransom over something they plan to shut! then you just help the matter along that much quicker
if the miners and scargill had got the support of other unions and the British people on his side then thatcher would have been defeated it was that simple
now if the British were as British as the french are french then we would still have pits and a steel industry and BL cars, that's our fault not thatchers
scargill lost because he wasn`t cleaver enough to defeat thatcher he was to hasty
and this is why you cannot blame one person or a group of people for our lack of British manufacturing
by not backing the miners the British people nailed its own industrial coffin shut
the job of getting that backing was scargills I'm afraid and as stated before his ego got in the way and he just wasn`t up to the job

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob

The roots lie much deeper than that .....see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

sorry staggers but i think you need to look at the British people for the failings in the the British industrial economy
in order for a strike to work and especially one such as the miners strike you need the backing of the people
to hold the government to ransom over something they plan to shut! then you just help the matter along that much quicker
if the miners and scargill had got the support of other unions and the British people on his side then thatcher would have been defeated it was that simple
now if the British were as British as the french are french then we would still have pits and a steel industry and BL cars, that's our fault not thatchers
scargill lost because he wasn`t cleaver enough to defeat thatcher he was to hasty
and this is why you cannot blame one person or a group of people for our lack of British manufacturing
by not backing the miners the British people nailed its own industrial coffin shutthe job of getting that backing was scargills I'm afraid and as stated before his ego got in the way and he just wasn`t up to the job
Scargill was to blame, the public could never back such underhand tactics as he employed. The miners had quite good public support at the start, but this was to be lost over time. I some times wonder if he cared anything for the miners at all, or whether he was in it to make a name for himself and line his pockets

9 Apr 2011

He continued to screw the miners long after the strikes and the memory faded.
Just like a third world dictator, he installed himself as a lifelong president of the NUM and continued to draw significant amounts of money from the pot to fund a very gracious lifestyle until recently discovered and dumped very unceremoniously.
His agenda was clearly for himself and not for the selfless service of those unfortunate enough to have suffered so terribly during those austere years on his watch.

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB

The roots lie much deeper than that …..see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

You mean this one from the Frost Report?

I don't see any of the things that you speak of in that sketch. We must view it differently? dunno

That's the one .... mistook the program ...... perhaps that's why I couldn't find it ..... It is I'll admit not entirely as I remember it but I still believe there are hints there
Maybe because that's what you want to believe? No such hints as far as I can see.
I wont labour the point Max .... I don't think that the argument as a whole is in any way dependant on the reading of that sketch,so I shan't be strolling up that particular blind alley with you
I'll take that as an admission you're wrong then Stagger.....I'm sure the hints are there
wink

you may take it however you wish Max .....as I said the argument does not depend on a comedy sketch
it probably would have done if you had not been proved wrong i feal.
if it does not depend on that sketch then why bring it up at all :dunno:

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob

The roots lie much deeper than that .....see messrs Corbett,Barker and Cleese on, that was the week that was, in the 60's....there is in that sketch the realisation of the middle classes loss of power,of financial and political clout ...there is (if you can find it anywhere) the quiet sound of the worm turning in the background. You can follow in the media from the late 60's onwards the working classes transformation from salt of the earth to scum of the earth. I don't and wouldn't go as far as to shout conspiracy, but there is purpose and the Thatcher government were the zenith of that purpose

sorry staggers but i think you need to look at the British people for the failings in the the British industrial economy
in order for a strike to work and especially one such as the miners strike you need the backing of the people
to hold the government to ransom over something they plan to shut! then you just help the matter along that much quicker
if the miners and scargill had got the support of other unions and the British people on his side then thatcher would have been defeated it was that simple
now if the British were as British as the french are french then we would still have pits and a steel industry and BL cars, that's our fault not thatchers
scargill lost because he wasn`t cleaver enough to defeat thatcher he was to hasty
and this is why you cannot blame one person or a group of people for our lack of British manufacturing
by not backing the miners the British people nailed its own industrial coffin shut
the job of getting that backing was scargills I'm afraid and as stated before his ego got in the way and he just wasn`t up to the job
I agree with everything but the bit in bold Rob....British industry was being undermined long before the miners strike or the abandonment of British products by the public, and the British class system had everything to do with it

Quote by GnV
He continued to screw the miners long after the strikes and the memory faded.
Just like a third world dictator, he installed himself as a lifelong president of the NUM and continued to draw significant amounts of money from the pot to fund a very gracious lifestyle until recently discovered and dumped very unceremoniously.
His agenda was clearly for himself and not for the selfless service of those unfortunate enough to have suffered so terribly during those austere years on his watch.

Can you think of any other people this may apply to G or is a little greed and self service the sole preserve of Arthur
N.B. look back at the miners strike thread I am and haven't been for a long long time a supporter of Mr Scargill......There was and remains one important fact about him though, he was spot on in his assessment of the Tory governments plans for his industry

Quote by starlightcouple

you may take it however you wish Max .....as I said the argument does not depend on a comedy sketch

it probably would have done if you had not been proved wrong i feal.
if it does not depend on that sketch then why bring it up at all dunno

No it was an attempt to find a contemporary illustration of my argument.....it was I admit a poor one...memory is not always quite the accurate tool we hope.
If you'd like to address the arguement rather than sitting on the sidelines sniping I would be more than happy to try and prove my case. It is just an idea I have about the sweep of our history and it would be interesting to test it

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
I agree with everything but the bit in bold Rob....British industry was being undermined long before the miners strike or the abandonment of British products by the public, and the British class system had everything to do with it

im not sure what you mean by undermined ???
do you mean the fact we could buy coal and transport it to the uk cheaper than we could produce it our selves
the addition of gas fires and central heating added to a real drop in demand for coal.
was what happened with the closure of the pits not inevitable and for some already well overdue
so my question would be "would his assesment of torys and his industry not just be common sense or simple logic" as he would be privy to far more information than your average miner dunno

meanwhile
BL was leaking cash in the millions in the 70`s.
when up against it they came up with the................. allegro and austin princess(otherwise known as the wedge ) and wait for it the morris ital ffs its no wonder fords made a killing in the 70s and 80s
the more i look at it Thatcher had a pretty fucking poxy job
like Cameron following brown
Thatcher had to do the job the previous labour government were to spineless to do

9 Apr 2011

The Allegro and Princess are near perfect examples of the middle class university boys failing miserably to understand the desires of their working class customers = undermined
And by the mid/late 70's that was their customer base enabled by the accelerating ascendency of the working class in the previous 60 years
This I believe is one of the factors in the realisation that they had (thus far at least) lost
Margaret Thatcher was the high water mark of a long turned tide, one that I think/hope is about to turn again

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Staggerlee_BB
The Allegro and Princess are near perfect examples of the middle class university boys failing miserably to understand the desires of their working class customers = undermined
And by the mid/late 70's that was their customer base enabled by the accelerating ascendency of the working class in the previous 60 years
This I believe is one of the factors in the realisation that they had (thus far at least) lost
Margaret Thatcher was the high water mark of a long turned tide, one that I think/hope is about to turn again

So why did they continue to buy Issigoni's creation without a hatchback option in droves, rather than the Ford and VW offerings which had far better practicality for the ascending working man who needed something to carry his kit around in? (which they did do later, of course).

9 Apr 2011

Wasnt the mini as cheap as chips compared to real cars?

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Wasnt the mini as cheap as chips compared to real cars?

An Issigonis success story, if there ever was one.

9 Apr 2011

Quote by Lizaleanrob
im not sure what you mean by undermined ???
do you mean the fact we could buy coal and transport it to the uk cheaper than we could produce it our selves

The reason coal was cheaper from abroad was because it was being subsidised by their government. They used to subsidise the coal industry to what believe in Poland accounted to about £100 a miner a week. The idea being..that they then produced coal that could be sold. The other option was to stop the subsidy, close the pits, and pay the £100 out in unemployment beniefit !!...with no coal to sell !!!
The same happened to our steel industry. Closed down, and was told can get in cheaper from abroad. And now we are now held to ransom on price, and delivery from China who continued with the production.

10 Apr 2011

dean. We were either held to ransom on price from abroad or from all too powerful unions who had other agenda. A bit like being between a rock and hard place really.
If you can buy a sack of spuds to feed the family with 50p cheaper down the road than the shop you usually buy from, which one are you going to use?

10 Apr 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Wasnt the mini as cheap as chips compared to real cars?

what do you mean by real cars ben ??
also is the mini still being produced as compared with its rivals of the time in fact its probably one of the few great success story's of British engineering of its time

10 Apr 2011

Wasn't it sold at a loss for most of its production run?
By real car I mean one that can accommodate 4 full sized adults comfortably.

10 Apr 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
Wasn't it sold at a loss for most of its production run?
with over million sold (for a loss)its a perfect example as to why another of our failed industry`s needed to be sold to to the Germans
so that they could then make a success of what we could not :doh:
mini and land rover i believe are making record sales even in this economic climate
and to add a little salt to the wound so is jaguar

By real car I mean one that can accommodate 4 full sized adults comfortably.
really not sure how a car needs to have 4 seats, (large ones at that) to be real but then i would Be a little bias as Liza`s new car is only a 2+2 and her first 4 seater for 6 years

10 Apr 2011

The alternatives to the venerable mini could accomodate 4 adults.
Im not sure how the use of the brand by current manufacturers relates to the viability of the original design.
In my view it was a pretty fine solution to peoples needs in the early 60s but was hawked way beyond its sell by date.

10 Apr 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
The alternatives to the venerable mini could accomodate 4 adults.
Im not sure how the use of the brand by current manufacturers relates to the viability of the original design.
In my view it was a pretty fine solution to peoples needs in the early 60s but was hawked way beyond its sell by date.

but, it's sell by date has not passed... the new owners of the brand have surpassed all expectations and created another cult car with a significant following dunno

It still is a pretty fine solution to peoples needs!

10 Apr 2011

Quote by Ben_welshminx
The alternatives to the venerable mini could accomodate 4 adults.
Im not sure how the use of the brand by current manufacturers relates to the viability of the original design.
In my view it was a pretty fine solution to peoples needs in the early 60s but was hawked way beyond its sell by date.

currently with petrol prices at an all time high, parking problems and rising car tax etc etc i would have though the 850cc mini would be more viable than ever
i know it was a stuggle but they did manage to hawk a million + of them

10 Apr 2011

Quote by deancannock

im not sure what you mean by undermined ???
do you mean the fact we could buy coal and transport it to the uk cheaper than we could produce it our selves

The reason coal was cheaper from abroad was because it was being subsidised by their government. They used to subsidise the coal industry to what believe in Poland accounted to about £100 a miner a week. The idea being..that they then produced coal that could be sold. The other option was to stop the subsidy, close the pits, and pay the £100 out in unemployment beniefit !!...with no coal to sell !!!
The same happened to our steel industry. Closed down, and was told can get in cheaper from abroad. And now we are now held to ransom on price, and delivery from China who continued with the production.
its the price we pay i`m sorry to say dean
supermarkets will and are doing the very same thing with regards to the local butcher /or fruit n veg, off licence etc etc you name it they sell it and who`s to blame ????

11 Apr 2011

The jaguar land rover story

i think there is a sign that says 11 years 15 days since our last strike in the plants somewhere bolt