My knowledge of the law is a bit dated now, but;
second hand testimony is in the main not excepted in court. A report of a suspect can be excepted if it is by the person who heard the suspect say it.
Likewise the same is true if a witness makes a dieing statement, that can normally be retold in court by the person who heard the die person make it.
Sometime the character of a witness can be attacked, this is rare.
Anything extracted for the forum would have to be proved to be written the victim for it to be used as a defence in a case.
Let us say that a man thinks that he can fuck a woman and 'no' does not mean no. Perhaps 'Banana' means no. If he can persuade a jury that he did not he, then under the law, he did not her.
I know I could put that better, but I hope you get the gist.
Travis
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A legal question
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I had a look at the chatroom page as I was going into chat......
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/chatroom/user-rules.html
So, I guess the answer is yes, the CPS could use comments from the site
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/chatroom/user-rules.html
Before you can access the chat room and associated features relating to it you need to agree to and fully understand the legal aspects and rules relating to the use of it. You should be aware that the owners of this site hold chatroom logs for at least 30 days in case of investigating complaints or legal matters caused by the mis-use of this site or its chatroom.
So, I guess the answer is yes, the CPS could use comments from the site
If this thread refers to SH and someone has said something of a criminal nature in chat and it was repeated in the forum - use the report button! It is then up to Admin to take any necessary action!
I'm not sure where this thread is meant to be going! Perhaps you can enlighten a moderator or Admin?
I'm not sure where this thread is meant to be going! Perhaps you can enlighten a moderator or Admin?
So my knowledge of the law is limited,i blame Micheal Zander for telling me i couldn't do Jurisprudence cos i would scare the law students but something has been niggling recently .
If someone says something in chat,perhaps jokingly e.g sheep shagger jokes directed at our welsh friends or ,a flippant,yes i am loaded i did the brinx matt robbery.
Or seriously,e.g i was beaten last night by my Master and he left excellent bruises,
and these comments are then posted by someone to the forum,could these comments be used by the cps for a prosecution?
i have also been thinking of the recent thread where a victim was not listened to because of evidence from msn that she was interested in LFTyCCv9RUGO7avk someone said in chat they found non consensual play a turn on,and then this was quoted in the forum as xxxxx wants to be ,would this be allowed,and would the fact the forum is open to nonmembers not place this person in a dangerous position?
Comments from those better informed than me would be appreciated
OK, let's try and pick this apart to see where we go.
First off, Michael Zander wasn't that bright, and certainly not a first division teacher of jurisprudence; however, he is a very good popularizer of legal systems and legal studies, although, in the battle to be the press's favourite leal studies professor he may have been eclipsed by the superbly named Gary Slapper.
If you think about remarks in passing, like a bit of casual racism or the 'I robbed Brinks Mat' jokes - no-one would create a legal duty to report such stuff - it's be impossible to police - can you imagine how many complaints there'd be over the Daily Mail forums? Things said in forums certainly have been used in evidence - a couple of case sup here involving white supremacists have involved evidence from forums, but it's supporting evidence against people charged with serious offences, not with casual racism.
Now, significant question one - would it be prima facie evidence of a criminal offence if someone posted that they had received significant bruises as a result of a beating from their master? On the face of it, I would say no. The conflicts in law between R vs Brown, R vs Wilson and other cases suggest there is no legal appetite to extend the reach of r v. Brown beyond its specific circumstances.
However, would the existence of things said on this forum be evidence to be used in a case? In the case you mention, I've never sorted out in my own mind whether the evidence presented (about the contents of MSN chat logs stored on the victim's computer) went to prove a point about the victim's character, or about the veracity of the victim's claim not to have consented. At best, I think it's possible to say they were evidence, not that something happened, but evidence about what the accused might reasonably and honestly believed.
So I'd say yes, it is possible to argue that things said here might be used as evidence in court, but it would only be to support an existing case, not to originate a case.
well one only has to consider the incidents where paedos have been trapped and busted by police using known sites. also extreme pay sites for torture etc. would by their nature consist of people who are complicit in what they do. so for the casual internet user who gets themselves 'lost' in a sexual fantasy, and suffers an unfortunate outcome; would presumably be treated differently to hard core enthusiasts.
Sex God
Quote by Trixie_D-Lish
i didnt realise the forum was open to nonmembers??? thought it was just part of SH ???
If you visit the SH site, you can see the forum. That is why we consider it a public part of the site and don't allow personal contact details etc to be posted in it.
Good Post Awayman...
but regarding the below:
I believe KaznKev is posting not of a specific incident, and so not seeking advice about what to do relating to a specific incident, but are posting from a "what if" position.
I have seen on other boards quite a lot of concern regarding how the law holds us regarding our sexual proclivities, and how that is/may be interpreted in the light of current changes.
So I suppose that once again (in my interpretation of the OP) this could easily related back to a recently raised point about descretion, only in these instance with a higher level of consequence should a piece of information be taken from a closed/private medium (EG: Chatroom) to an open fourm, where anyone can read, posibly out of context to.
Which is why I find this:...
If you visit the SH site, you can see the forum. That is why we consider it a public part of the site and don't allow personal contact details etc to be posted in it.
... a little odd on a couple of levels.
Considering the nature of the site (sex based, and members only) we the members are quite restricted in the nature of the material we can post.
(Im not refering just to personal phone numbers and email addresses)
Material of a 'adult nature' is not allowed, from our avatars, to pictures in the forum.
If the forum were viewable to members only (who by their nature of being members have specifically stated that they are over the legal age, and consenting) and not just any old passing transient, might we not have a little more freedom, and not be so restricted?
Though of course, descretion, and the safeguarding of information and reputaion in context should still be paramount.
lp
but regarding the below:
I believe KaznKev is posting not of a specific incident, and so not seeking advice about what to do relating to a specific incident, but are posting from a "what if" position.
Quote by anais
If this thread refers to SH and someone has said something of a criminal nature in chat and it was repeated in the forum - use the report button! It is then up to Admin to take any necessary action!
I'm not sure where this thread is meant to be going! Perhaps you can enlighten a moderator or Admin?
I have seen on other boards quite a lot of concern regarding how the law holds us regarding our sexual proclivities, and how that is/may be interpreted in the light of current changes.
So I suppose that once again (in my interpretation of the OP) this could easily related back to a recently raised point about descretion, only in these instance with a higher level of consequence should a piece of information be taken from a closed/private medium (EG: Chatroom) to an open fourm, where anyone can read, posibly out of context to.
Which is why I find this:...
Quote by noladreams
i didnt realise the forum was open to nonmembers??? thought it was just part of SH ???
If you visit the SH site, you can see the forum. That is why we consider it a public part of the site and don't allow personal contact details etc to be posted in it.
... a little odd on a couple of levels.
Considering the nature of the site (sex based, and members only) we the members are quite restricted in the nature of the material we can post.
(Im not refering just to personal phone numbers and email addresses)
Material of a 'adult nature' is not allowed, from our avatars, to pictures in the forum.
If the forum were viewable to members only (who by their nature of being members have specifically stated that they are over the legal age, and consenting) and not just any old passing transient, might we not have a little more freedom, and not be so restricted?
Though of course, descretion, and the safeguarding of information and reputaion in context should still be paramount.
lp
I know nothing of the law.
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
Quote by Ben_welshminx
I know nothing of the law.
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
I think that's a really good point.
I think the Photo Ads. by far would make the best marketing portal for the site (for non-members I mean).
And yes, the 'Googlebrity' thing shocked me when somebody pointed it out a few years back.
Quote by __random_orbit__
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
yes indeed... consider that site owners. posibly not the best commercial strategy?
lp
Ooo, we've all just agreed - how nice on this sunny, sunny day! ;)
Quote by BIoke
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
yes indeed... consider that site owners. posibly not the best commercial strategy?
lp
Ooo, we've all just agreed - how nice on this sunny, sunny day! ;)
Unheard of... where's the Controversy Button when you need it?
lp
Sex God
Originals?
*back to thread*
The main thing I don't like with this kind of thing is the site reset and restore function.
A while back I went through nearly all of my back catelogue of posts and deleted/edited those I didn't want in the 'public domain' anymore. However, when the site goes on reset or has updates (which is every other time I log in these days) all my edited deletes/removal of certain information are updated and restored. So I wasted my time editing my content, yet again.
Does anyone know how long it takes to read and remove information from a few thousand posts? A long bloody time.
I certainly don't think this 'restoring' is acceptable in light of allegedly being able to be taken to court on the basis of someone fishing for some personal information about me on the internet. I may have thought what I posted relevant at the time but those old posts no longer stand. Especially some of the threads contributions I've made that are over a year old. I should have the right and the abilty to delete/edit and have it remain so. Especially in light of possible legal consquences. :?
*back to thread*
The main thing I don't like with this kind of thing is the site reset and restore function.
A while back I went through nearly all of my back catelogue of posts and deleted/edited those I didn't want in the 'public domain' anymore. However, when the site goes on reset or has updates (which is every other time I log in these days) all my edited deletes/removal of certain information are updated and restored. So I wasted my time editing my content, yet again.
Does anyone know how long it takes to read and remove information from a few thousand posts? A long bloody time.
I certainly don't think this 'restoring' is acceptable in light of allegedly being able to be taken to court on the basis of someone fishing for some personal information about me on the internet. I may have thought what I posted relevant at the time but those old posts no longer stand. Especially some of the threads contributions I've made that are over a year old. I should have the right and the abilty to delete/edit and have it remain so. Especially in light of possible legal consquences. :?
Quote by __random_orbit__
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
yes indeed... consider that site owners. posibly not the best commercial strategy?
lp
But then some of the other forums such as, LMU, Dogging, chatroom, holiday, just for fun, club meets or even current affairs could be a good advert for the site :thumbup:
I know LMU showing socials, munches, parties and meets sure would encourage me to use SH :twisted:
Orgasminator
Having been involved with something like this at work recently, this was the direction from our legal department:-
“If someone says something in chat, perhaps jokingly e.g sheep shagger jokes directed at our welsh friends or ,a flippant, yes Ii am loaded I did the brinx matt robbery.”
If someone complained about this, it is covered by the site T&C (racist or defamatory comment) and the first point of contact should be to report this to a Moderator for the forum or a Chat Op if this occurred in the Chatroom, failing a satisfactory resolution (which must be given in writing to the complainant within 21 days - this covers the site in the event of a court case - (active moderation)) this could then be escalated to a legal action under the Race Relations Act via an official complaint to the Police or the IRR. Here it is important to define the ‘context’ of its use – eg. If it is a general comment regarding the Welsh then the complaint stands more chance of successful prosecution if you are a Welsh national or is the comment is directed personally e.g. Mr/Mrs xxxxx is a ‘sheep shagger’ would constitute ‘liable’ and can be prosecuted civilly.
The Brinx Matt comment would not be seen as anything other than a lie/boasting and would not attract Police attention unless it formed part of a criminal investigation and the suspect was actually a member of SH, in which case the Police would approach the site owners directly for the evidence of this comment.
“Or seriously, e.g. i was beaten last night by my Master and he left excellent bruises.”
The Police would interpret this as ‘adult consensual play’. The comment is in the ‘first person’ and BDSM is not illegal.
“I have also been thinking of the recent thread where a victim was not listened to because of evidence from msn that she was interested in play. If someone said in chat they found non consensual play a turn on, and then this was quoted in the forum as xxxxx wants to be , would this be allowed, and would the fact the forum is open to non-members not place this person in a dangerous position?”
is illegal in any context if the act is non consensual. If the person uses their real name, photo, address etc and advertises for ‘play ’ then a prosecution is unlikely to succeed as this constitutes ‘consent’ to the act of within the context of ‘rough sex’ / ‘stranger sex’. If the comment is placed by a 3rd party (e.g. husband – wife wants play) then this is illegal and the 3rd party would also be prosecuted as an accessory to if a complaint was made by the ‘partner’. Again, the Police would approach the site for any supporting evidence in a criminal case.
Any reference to an illegal sexual act – / etc. should be deleted by the forum Moderators, and/or action taken against a member for breach of both common law and the site T&C/AUP. Failure to do so leaves the ‘site’ open to a criminal prosecution by the Police as an accessory unless due-diligence can be shown to have been applied – just stating that there is a ‘policy’ or ‘rule’ would not be a defence – the site has to show ‘active’ Moderation and Controls are in-place to capture and delete illegal posts / chat / adverts / pictures etc. For a ‘live’ site eg chatroom / IM etc if a complaint is made for ‘illegal’ content then this must be ‘removed’ from general view within a ‘reasonable’ time and that consequential actions are taken against the ‘poster’ of such material.
“If someone says something in chat, perhaps jokingly e.g sheep shagger jokes directed at our welsh friends or ,a flippant, yes Ii am loaded I did the brinx matt robbery.”
If someone complained about this, it is covered by the site T&C (racist or defamatory comment) and the first point of contact should be to report this to a Moderator for the forum or a Chat Op if this occurred in the Chatroom, failing a satisfactory resolution (which must be given in writing to the complainant within 21 days - this covers the site in the event of a court case - (active moderation)) this could then be escalated to a legal action under the Race Relations Act via an official complaint to the Police or the IRR. Here it is important to define the ‘context’ of its use – eg. If it is a general comment regarding the Welsh then the complaint stands more chance of successful prosecution if you are a Welsh national or is the comment is directed personally e.g. Mr/Mrs xxxxx is a ‘sheep shagger’ would constitute ‘liable’ and can be prosecuted civilly.
The Brinx Matt comment would not be seen as anything other than a lie/boasting and would not attract Police attention unless it formed part of a criminal investigation and the suspect was actually a member of SH, in which case the Police would approach the site owners directly for the evidence of this comment.
“Or seriously, e.g. i was beaten last night by my Master and he left excellent bruises.”
The Police would interpret this as ‘adult consensual play’. The comment is in the ‘first person’ and BDSM is not illegal.
“I have also been thinking of the recent thread where a victim was not listened to because of evidence from msn that she was interested in play. If someone said in chat they found non consensual play a turn on, and then this was quoted in the forum as xxxxx wants to be , would this be allowed, and would the fact the forum is open to non-members not place this person in a dangerous position?”
is illegal in any context if the act is non consensual. If the person uses their real name, photo, address etc and advertises for ‘play ’ then a prosecution is unlikely to succeed as this constitutes ‘consent’ to the act of within the context of ‘rough sex’ / ‘stranger sex’. If the comment is placed by a 3rd party (e.g. husband – wife wants play) then this is illegal and the 3rd party would also be prosecuted as an accessory to if a complaint was made by the ‘partner’. Again, the Police would approach the site for any supporting evidence in a criminal case.
Any reference to an illegal sexual act – / etc. should be deleted by the forum Moderators, and/or action taken against a member for breach of both common law and the site T&C/AUP. Failure to do so leaves the ‘site’ open to a criminal prosecution by the Police as an accessory unless due-diligence can be shown to have been applied – just stating that there is a ‘policy’ or ‘rule’ would not be a defence – the site has to show ‘active’ Moderation and Controls are in-place to capture and delete illegal posts / chat / adverts / pictures etc. For a ‘live’ site eg chatroom / IM etc if a complaint is made for ‘illegal’ content then this must be ‘removed’ from general view within a ‘reasonable’ time and that consequential actions are taken against the ‘poster’ of such material.
Quote by little gem
Originals?
*back to thread*
The main thing I don't like with this kind of thing is the site reset and restore function.
A while back I went through nearly all of my back catelogue of posts and deleted/edited those I didn't want in the 'public domain' anymore. However, when the site goes on reset or has updates (which is every other time I log in these days) all my edited deletes/removal of certain information are updated and restored. So I wasted my time editing my content, yet again.
Does anyone know how long it takes to read and remove information from a few thousand posts? A long bloody time.
I certainly don't think this 'restoring' is acceptable in light of allegedly being able to be taken to court on the basis of someone fishing for some personal information about me on the internet. I may have thought what I posted relevant at the time but those old posts no longer stand. Especially some of the threads contributions I've made that are over a year old. I should have the right and the abilty to delete/edit and have it remain so. Especially in light of possible legal consquences. :?
very good points here, I like your thinking.
I wonder if there is a legal responcibility on the part of the site owners/administration to keep records?
And if so, for how long?
I know that in my profession, we have a lot of legal records that have to be stored for varying lengths of time. However, those records are very sensitive regarding the nature of the people on whom's behalf the records are kept.
Some are a year, three to five years, and a very few are indefinate.
I can't imagine the legal requirement for social website(which I would think this broadly is) would be that stringent. (perhaps our Admin can inform?)
So I might suggest a usefull time for forum post/data storage of two years once a thread becomes inactive? (IE: a dead-thread, not having been posted in/updated for that period of time?)
For instance, I'm sure I said somewhere once upon a time that I would happily kill the Queen for a tin of tuna...
... and I would not be happy if The Royal Highness were to be topped and I were found wandering the streets of Old London Town with a loaf of crusty bread and a Prince's Finest in my pocket only to be dragged off to the tower.
It would be even worse if HRH were brained WITH a canned fish projectile.... just imagine!
lp
Sex God
ROLP, With all due respect, I want the ability to choose which ones I delete/edit and for them to remain deleted/edited, not for a blanket timebomb destruction on all posts dated before two years previous to today!
Although, if I'd have threatened high treason with a tin of tuna I might be slightly more worried!
;)
Orrrrr, make anything over two years old only searchable to the owner of the post? Would that be a more workable option of something which surely must have a huge plethora of options to be snuffled through!
LG. x
Although, if I'd have threatened high treason with a tin of tuna I might be slightly more worried!
;)Orrrrr, make anything over two years old only searchable to the owner of the post? Would that be a more workable option of something which surely must have a huge plethora of options to be snuffled through!
LG. x Quote by little gem
ROLP, With all due respect, I want the ability to choose which ones I delete/edit and for them to remain deleted/edited, not for a blanket timebomb destruction on all posts dated before two years previous to today!
Although, if I'd have threatened high treason with a tin of tuna I might be slightly more worried!
agreed.
I was trying to think of an approach that might be automatic in relation to the 'life' of the information.
But Yes, if you delte or adjust your own material, it should stay that way.
adendum:
Long Live the Queen.
I don't like tune, Prince's or otherwise.
lp
EDIT: TUNA!
Tune Essence never came into my thinking. Does he like tuna... how is he on his stance about the royals... I'll bet it was HIM!
Quote by Kaznkev
I know nothing of the law.
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
Thank you to all who have explored this and have more knowledge than i.
Away and Gu,thanks for taking the time to go into detail.
ben , i have quoted your post cos i am interested in hearing what you mean,do you mean if you put some user names into google you can trace back to real names?You know me and the interweb,an explanation in easy to understand words would be appreciated.
Well I must say there are a lot of ' 's out there.
Orgasminator
Quote by Kaznkev
I know nothing of the law.
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
Thank you to all who have explored this and have more knowledge than i.
Away and Gu,thanks for taking the time to go into detail.
ben , i have quoted your post cos i am interested in hearing what you mean,do you mean if you put some user names into google you can trace back to real names?You know me and the interweb,an explanation in easy to understand words would be appreciated.
I just Googled kaznkev and i found this:-
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/view-topic.html?topic_id=302638&view=previous
Quote by Gufuncouple
I know nothing of the law.
I have always been alarmed that a simple search on google for the screen names on here can bring up some material which frankly isnt great to have in the public domain. Particularly when some folk use long held email addresses as screen names.
Just my thoughts but there u go. Given that a lot of forum material is hardly the best advert for the site might it not be better to keep it out of the public domain?
Thank you to all who have explored this and have more knowledge than i.
Away and Gu,thanks for taking the time to go into detail.
ben , i have quoted your post cos i am interested in hearing what you mean,do you mean if you put some user names into google you can trace back to real names?You know me and the interweb,an explanation in easy to understand words would be appreciated.
I just Googled kaznkev and i found this:-
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/swingers-forum/view-topic.html?topic_id=302638&view=previous
...and this
...but it is a good idea, I must try to be in the Park.
Orgasminator
OMG!
I've just Googled my own SH account name - the result is frightning!!!!
Our SH 'events' (this info has to come from SH as it's the only site we use for hosting events) appear on a Russian web site.....
Our SH profile details appear on a website hosted in Hungary.....
Our SH profile details appear on a transgender website as an 'account'.....
Although we use a 'common' name across other 'swinging sites' we make subtle changes in each account so we can identify the 'original' source, in the above the 'source' info came from our SH profile/forum postings/events. :sad:
It pays to be careful - luckily I've not been able to link our account 'name' back to our 'real' identities - YET!!! but i'm working on it! :twisted:
I've just Googled my own SH account name - the result is frightning!!!!
Our SH 'events' (this info has to come from SH as it's the only site we use for hosting events) appear on a Russian web site.....
Our SH profile details appear on a website hosted in Hungary.....
Our SH profile details appear on a transgender website as an 'account'.....
Although we use a 'common' name across other 'swinging sites' we make subtle changes in each account so we can identify the 'original' source, in the above the 'source' info came from our SH profile/forum postings/events. :sad:
It pays to be careful - luckily I've not been able to link our account 'name' back to our 'real' identities - YET!!! but i'm working on it! :twisted:
Sex God
Quote by Gufuncouple
OMG!
I've just Googled my own SH account name - the result is frightning!!!!
Our SH 'events' (this info has to come from SH as it's the only site we use for hosting events) appear on a Russian web site.....
Our SH profile details appear on a website hosted in Hungary.....
Our SH profile details appear on a transgender website as an 'account'.....
Although we use a 'common' name across other 'swinging sites' we make subtle changes in each account so we can identify the 'original' source, in the above the 'source' info came from our SH profile/forum postings/events. :sad:
It pays to be careful - luckily I've not been able to link our account 'name' back to our 'real' identities - YET!!! but i'm working on it! :twisted:
Very frightened now! guarding the coast from a Hungarian and Russian alliance attack on UK swingers.
