A Short Stay In Switzerland...

26 Jan 2009

Did anyone watch this last night?
If you missed it, it's based on a true story and well worth a watch but make sure you have tissues handy! :cry:
A Short Stay In Switzerland
Anne Turner's story was tragic. She watched her husband die from motor neuron disease and had hardly recovered from his funeral when she exhibited the first symptoms of supranuclear palsy, a very similar condition but slightly worse, for its early stages affect your balance, physical and mental. As a doctor, she knew what the diagnosis meant, and that robbed her of hope. Yet it is said that knowledge is power and that the truth can set you free. Against some odds, Turner's case proved no exception. She took power over her destiny and chose euthanasia. Having in real life summoned BBC News to record her last day and make a plea for legalisation, she would, her family must have concluded, been pleased that her story would now be sanctified as primetime drama starring Julie Walters.
After being at a funeral on Saturday and then watching that last night it's really made me think today. :undecided:
I'm not sure I can go into great depth about my feelings on it other than to say that I totally agree that we should have the right to make that choice because given the same circumstances I'm fairly sure that I would make the same decision.
Would you?

26 Jan 2009

I did a thread about this some time ago, as a conversation came up when my mum took ill, but she is doing fine at the moment fingers crossed.
I believe people should have a choice, but that choice should be made when the person is able to give their wishes.
My mum didn't want to get to a stage whereby all her basis needs were dependant on others, she wanted to keep some dignity.
It is a shame that to choose for this to happen we have to go abroad and then possiblily suffer the consciences on return.
Lucky for us this hopefully has been put off for a while, but feel, for the people that have no other options.

26 Jan 2009

I am afraid that I didn't watch the programme last night, so I can't comment on that, however the issue of rights is fair game.
It seems somewhat ironic that in a society which now advocates rights for almost everything under the sun, the one inalienable right we should have, the right to live or die, is still legally in the hands of ministers, doctors and solicitors.
If I was ever to be in a situation like that poor woman was, then I would like the chance to be able to make a decision on my own future without having to worry about the legal ramifications for the people I would leave behind. It is going to be hard enough on them as it is. Sadly the law prevents that.
It seems odd we take terminally ill animals to the vets to be put to sleep humanely, and yet we cannot afford the same rights to each other.

26 Jan 2009

I've not seen the prog though i am anti-euthanasia as I think that it raises far more issues than it solves. With the best palliative care that society can give to those that require it I think that the right to die has no place. I know the arguements and though i can feel and understand those who wish to change things I still feel the same way.

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Resonance
It seems odd we take terminally ill animals to the vets to be put to sleep humanely, and yet we cannot afford the same rights to each other.

I think it's odd too. It certainly sounds odd the way you put it...
I think there is something in the overall method of treatment of ill humans that is more humane than "putting things to sleep".
By that I mean emergency procedures, pain relief, intensive care, hospitalization etc... surely that is humane ? i think attempts to preserve life are more humane than giving people a fatal dose of whatever they give to kill you.
I have to say that I'm not against giving people the right to choose in specified circumstances, such as this lady and the many who have sought out medical practitioners to help assist them .... what i would be against is others making decisions for people which are pro-termination.
I would prefer to see life saving than life taking.

26 Jan 2009

Perhaps I didn't put my arguments into context as I should have done, apologies.
When I say I am for the right to have choice, I do not mean that as soon as you are diagnosed with something, you immediately accept your fate.
I wholeheartedly agree on the notion of treatment and hospitalisation as the first recourse and of course I would never state that by following this treatment would make it inhumane. Far from it, it is the sensible, strong and intelligent option to take.
I feel the choice to die would only ever be the final recourse. When all treatment, palliative care, drugs, transplants etc have failed and when the patient faces nothing more but a slow, lingering, often pain filled death. I think then and only then should people have the option and it would only be an option. Some I have no doubt would choose to fight on, some may have no fight left. I know my father in law didn't in his last few weeks and I know my wife and mother in law found it very painful to only be able to see in his eyes what his body and mouth could not express and I have no idea what he was going through.
And I totally agree with Deecee on her final point, the decision could only ever be taken by the patient themselves, never by a third party.

26 Jan 2009

i am against euthinasia.
i have reserched this topic and no matter how hard i try and see the side for i never can.
i watched my stepmum die of MN and my dad cancer.
they were given excellent palative care, pain relief and there was never a right time to administer the lethal injection.
the problems that euthinasia brings are horrific, scary and i hopenever happen in the uk.
while there are countries that do allow this then go there.
so many people will oppt for this to save their family time money worry. i couldnever choose a time to call it a day. mental ill health steals enough good people from this earth, i understand when diagnosed with a terminal illness you may not make the objective desisions to not take this route.
xx fem xx

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Resonance
And I totally agree with Deecee on her final point, the decision could only ever be taken by the patient themselves, never by a third party.

Thanks for agreeing with me.... but i have to point out that I am , infact, a bloke :shock:

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Resonance
And I totally agree with Deecee on her final point, the decision could only ever be taken by the patient themselves, never by a third party.

:giggle: Sorry lol

On a more serious note, I've watched my Grandad deteriorate over the last 3 years with Alzheimers and Parkinsons disease. He's gone from a 6 foot tall, well built man, to a tiny skeleton with skin on, barely able to speak, and doesn't recognise any of us when we visit him :cry:
This is a man I looked up to my whole life (both literally and metaphorically) and now the best conversation I can hope for from him is the sound of his "nom nom" as I feed him mashed banana whilst he lies in a bed he'll not leave until they put him in a box.
My Grandad was a proud man, a fit man, a leading member of the local Ramblers Association who walked miles over hill and dale every weekend for as long as I can remember. I know that lying there in that bed now, in his (admittedly few and far between) moments of lucidity, his heart is breaking over his quality of life now. I can honestly say that if I had a choice - or even if he'd had the choice before the ilnesses progressed too far for it to be a decision he was capable of making - Euthanasia would be a serious consideration. I do not say that lightly :cry: :cry:

26 Jan 2009

Quote by DeeCee

And I totally agree with Deecee on her final point, the decision could only ever be taken by the patient themselves, never by a third party.

Thanks for agreeing with me.... but i have to point out that I am , infact, a bloke :shock:
ooops!
I do apologise Miss... I mean sir!
Your avatar fooled me somewhat! Not the first time that has happened either this week!
Apologies!

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Resonance

And I totally agree with Deecee on her final point, the decision could only ever be taken by the patient themselves, never by a third party.

Thanks for agreeing with me.... but i have to point out that I am , infact, a bloke :shock:
ooops!
I do apologise Miss... I mean sir!
Your avatar fooled me somewhat! Not the first time that has happened either this week!
Apologies!
It's fine....
There is a caption under the pic that says " your dirty mind"!!!
well, as they say, if the cap fits , wear it lol wink

26 Jan 2009

one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

26 Jan 2009

Quote by fem_4_taboo
one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

That's a very good point. I guess the only answer can come through discussion beforehand, while things are not so bad. A sort of "worst case scenario" talk... It sends me cold just thinking about this...
But even then, what is to say that the person suffering, may not have changed their mind since?
I didn't mean to sound like Doctor Kevorkian in my posts. I agree there should be choice... I also agree that getting there is probably the most difficult thing legally, and also emotionally. There are many moral, social, religious and ethical issues to consider and the more you feel you unravel one, the tighter the knot the others tangle themselves into.
It's a difficult and thought provoking issue and there is no easy answer. I can see perfectly acceptable and rational arguments for both sides. It is the shades of grey in between which make it so complex.

26 Jan 2009

Quote by fem_4_taboo
one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

I've had this conversation with my mum on a number of occasions. Her mother had dementia and was in a home for 12 years. She had no idea who any of us were. Her quality of life was nil and eventually she "fell" out of a chair and broke her hip. She died shortly after.
Whilst I appreciate what you're saying Fem, and I totally understand that there is a level of care which we would all like to hope that our relatives get, the simple fact is that they don't always receive that sort of care.
I can't speak for my mum, although she feels the same way as I do, but I can speak for myself and I know that were I to find myself in the position of Dr Turner or in fact my gran, I would absolutely, without a shadow of doubt, wish to save my family from the heartache (along with all the other things be it financial or time or anything else) and make the choice to end my life prematurely. There comes a time, with dementia or similar, when that choice would disappear and I would like the opportunity to make that choice while I was still lucid enough to do so. I have no desire to spend the latter years of my life having someone care for me in a way you would care for a child because I am unable to care for myself.
I believe that is my right.

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Dirtygirly
She had no idea who any of us were.

When my mum was ill, I would visit her at the hospice, the medication was so strong, as well as her treatment, that the last conversation we had involved her asking who I am, what I did for a living, how did I know my stepdad, had I ever met her before.
She died shortly afterwards.

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Dirtygirly
one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

I've had this conversation with my mum on a number of occasions. Her mother had dementia and was in a home for 12 years. She had no idea who any of us were. Her quality of life was nil and eventually she "fell" out of a chair and broke her hip. She died shortly after.
Whilst I appreciate what you're saying Fem, and I totally understand that there is a level of care which we would all like to hope that our relatives get, the simple fact is that they don't always receive that sort of care.
I can't speak for my mum, although she feels the same way as I do, but I can speak for myself and I know that were I to find myself in the position of Dr Turner or in fact my gran, I would absolutely, without a shadow of doubt, wish to save my family from the heartache (along with all the other things be it financial or time or anything else) and make the choice to end my life prematurely. There comes a time, with dementia or similar, when that choice would disappear and I would like the opportunity to make that choice while I was still lucid enough to do so. I have no desire to spend the latter years of my life having someone care for me in a way you would care for a child because I am unable to care for myself.
I believe that is my right.
Although I see the humanity in your post and I empathise as much as I can with you and your family. With what you state above therein lies the things are things you want to prevent your family from suffering. But, in a mental state such as Alzheimers who are we the relatives, Dr's or other professionals to determin what goes on in the world that the mind has created?
It is an awful situation for those caring and loving those struck by such illnesses but how awful is it for those inflicted? Maybe we will know one daym, but until we can read minds I think we cannot allow ourselves to go down the euthanasia route.

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Lost
one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

I've had this conversation with my mum on a number of occasions. Her mother had dementia and was in a home for 12 years. She had no idea who any of us were. Her quality of life was nil and eventually she "fell" out of a chair and broke her hip. She died shortly after.
Whilst I appreciate what you're saying Fem, and I totally understand that there is a level of care which we would all like to hope that our relatives get, the simple fact is that they don't always receive that sort of care.
I can't speak for my mum, although she feels the same way as I do, but I can speak for myself and I know that were I to find myself in the position of Dr Turner or in fact my gran, I would absolutely, without a shadow of doubt, wish to save my family from the heartache (along with all the other things be it financial or time or anything else) and make the choice to end my life prematurely. There comes a time, with dementia or similar, when that choice would disappear and I would like the opportunity to make that choice while I was still lucid enough to do so. I have no desire to spend the latter years of my life having someone care for me in a way you would care for a child because I am unable to care for myself.
I believe that is my right.
Although I see the humanity in your post and I empathise as much as I can with you and your family. With what you state above therein lies the things are things you want to prevent your family from suffering. But, in a mental state such as Alzheimers who are we the relatives, Dr's or other professionals to determin what goes on in the world that the mind has created?
It is an awful situation for those caring and loving those struck by such illnesses but how awful is it for those inflicted? Maybe we will know one daym, but until we can read minds I think we cannot allow ourselves to go down the euthanasia route.
I understand what you're saying... I can only speak from my experience and my gran hadn't a clue who we were. She sat in a chair, rocking back and forward humming to herself. I'm aware of what life has to offer. That is not a life I would choose.
If you didn't watch the program last night, then I would ask that you do and then maybe try to understand it from her point of view. I would absolutely do what she did and know that I would have the support of my family, having been through it before and witnessed first hand how it affected everyone involved. I would like my family to remember me for being me, not a shadow of my former self, a burden and who has been left in a strange place to piss and dribble amongst strangers.
My uncle died last weekend. He was 81. He had Alzheimers. He went out for a walk on Saturday afternoon. He died at He had a massive heart attack. He was found at on Sunday morning alone in the street, having fallen into some bushes at the side of the road.
Would his family have wanted that sort of death for him?
Would he?
Would you?
dunno

26 Jan 2009

There can be few harder more emotive subjects than this DG and however anyone feels about it one way or other those feelings come from concern and love so throughout it all we have common ground in that we care.
Quoting Big G "Peace"

26 Jan 2009

Quote by Lost
There can be few harder more emotive subjects than this DG and however anyone feels about it one way or other those feelings come from concern and love so throughout it all we have common ground in that we care.
Quoting Big G "Peace"

I know... I am interested in the pros and cons, there are lots just like in any other emotive topic, I just know that if I were the kids in that particular film I would do exactly as they did and know that I'd done the right thing.
I just wonder if it's a little shortsighted to write it off completely without any consideration?
What happens if you have an accident. You're a vegetable but you're breathing... would you choose to live or would you want the switch flicked?
Am really just thinking out loud... peace is correct! :thumbup:

26 Jan 2009

Quote by fem_4_taboo
one thing ive noticed is when most people talk about being "for" this their reasons are often "I" watched them change "I" saw how they couldnt do anything.
"I" felt helpless to do anything.
this is my concern that it would be done because the person wouldnt want their family to have to watch them go through this.
if they are unaware or not in pain, but unavle to communicate that how do you know they would actually then want this? and the look in the eyes isnt just wishing for one more day ?
xx fem xx

I do see what you're saying Fem, and I've re-read my post trying to be objective. Perhaps what I should have also added is that my Grandad, the proud business man, company owner, Patriarch of our family, leader and friend to his fellow ramblers and a strong, loving man, would have hated to be in the situation he's in now. He's gone from being all of those things to lying in the same bed in a nursing home, being fed pureed food and having his nappy changed x amount of times a day.
It's not so much about what "I" see, as what he would feel about the difference in his situation now, to maybe 10 years ago.
As DG said, I know I wouldn't want to exist like that, and given the choice, I'm sure Grandad wouldn't either.
"Peace" is a good sentiment here though. It's too raw for me to argue over, that's certainly not what I'm trying to do. Just trying to explain my view on a very difficult subject smile

26 Jan 2009

Long time since I cried so much from a program sad

I think how it stands at the minute and how shown in the program is how it should be. It needs a sound mind to make a decision like that and yet that does not help those who are "to far gone" and can not help themselves.
I think I would yes in the same situation

28 Jan 2009

I watched this last night, I have never cried so much to a tv program :cry: :cry: :cry: .
The scary thing is this could happen to any of us and I for one would not like to live a life where I have no quality of life at all. I would want to spare my family the pain and the burdun of caring for me. I am pro euthanisia and would support any of my family if it was also their wish to die a digified death.