attached men swinging alone

21 Apr 2008

Quote by de_sade
Well, well, well...So because my personal values are different from plumfabios I am now officially "Holier than thou".
What a condescending generalisation.
If a couple are in a relationship built on love, trust and mutual respect then honesty will be second nature. In that kind of a relationship if you can't be honest, move over and let someone else love your partner the way they deserve to be loved...Openly and honestly. Don't do anything to anyone that you would not like done to yourself.
Can I add as a footnote...What goes around, comes around...three-fold. :thumbup:
P.S. If plumfabio is afraid that folk on here might not think he has any balls perhaps he could show just how ballsy he actually is by being honest and telling his wife exactly what he does behind her back...

De_Sade, that must have to be the most confrontational, appalling post I've ever seen posted in here.
You have publically attempted to humiliate Plum with your opinions, which you have a right to have, but should be kept to yourself or in a PM!
Your thread is actually a condescending generalisation based upon your own beliefs. It is no other than bullying!
There was no need to put the "what goes around" blah pap, it's uncalled for.
I've said until I'm blue in the face, will people in here let others do what they want to do and get on with their own lives? I've had the balls to say leave people to their own devices now... flame me!
This thread is the exact reason why we should do that.
I'm taking some time out of this one before I say something I'll regret! mad

21 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar
Please everyone, we've all got our morals and ideas, I would never ever play away and cheat on Jay, but we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it.
By the way has anyone in here stopped to think what we're doing by swinging is 'consented adultery'. It's most certainly not in our marriage vows is it? Are we as swingers in a position to get on our high horse and be all moralistic in the first place?
Unless we know the people and the facts, I say :gagged:

You say "we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it" but you have commented more than anyone else. You are of course entitled to your opinion that cheats should not be judged, but that right also extends to those people who do wish to judge cheats as people they do not wish to play with.
I do not judge anyone's reasons for cheating, they are neither my business nor of any interest to me. Where I know someone is cheating I don't automatically judge them to be 'bad people' but I don't want to play with them. A bigger issue is those who don't say up front that they are playing behind their partner's back, and I'd guess that they are in the majority. They are taking away choice from those they play with by being dishonest, and IMO honesty and having choices is much more important than not being judgmental about cheats.

21 Apr 2008

Quote by Unc

Please everyone, we've all got our morals and ideas, I would never ever play away and cheat on Jay, but we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it.
By the way has anyone in here stopped to think what we're doing by swinging is 'consented adultery'. It's most certainly not in our marriage vows is it? Are we as swingers in a position to get on our high horse and be all moralistic in the first place?
Unless we know the people and the facts, I say :gagged:

You say "we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it" but you have commented more than anyone else. You are of course entitled to your opinion that cheats should not be judged, but that right also extends to those people who do wish to judge cheats as people they do not wish to play with.

and? dunno

so... Unc, my only crime is what? Have I said I agree with it? um no, have I said I disagree with it.. um yes.
what has been the passion behind my posts? I'm not just saying, and I use your quote, 'cheats' should not be judged, I'm saying... no one should be judged.
I speak for a few members in here who are, as you put it, 'cheating' and all I'll say in closing is that if you knew who they were and knew the reasons behind it you'd be as gobby as I've been.
I've had PM's from people agreeing with what I've said, pity I'm the only one who's said it outright. Quite simply I just want people to be allowed to do whatever they want, swing, play, stay faithful, cheat if they want, and I think my intentions have been misinterpreted so I'll say no more.

21 Apr 2008

you could start a whole new thread , snip
oh sod it i will

21 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar
and?
so... Unc, my only crime is what? Have I said I agree with it? um no, have I said I disagree with it.. um yes.

Your 'crime', to use your over-emotive word, is to suggest that other people's opinions have less of a place in this thread than your own.

Quote by jaymar
what has been the passion behind my posts? I'm not just saying, and I use your quote, 'cheats' should not be judged, I'm saying... no one should be judged.

It isn't my quote, I used cheat because it was what you said you would never do. Everyone makes judgments every day, it's normal and natural. Everyone has a choice in deciding what is acceptable to them, and if not playing with someone who is playing behind their partners back, whatever their reasons, is unacceptable to someone, what right have you to say they shouldn't express that opinion?

Quote by jaymar
I speak for a few members in here who are, as you put it, 'cheating' and all I'll say in closing is that if you knew who they were and knew the reasons behind it you'd be as gobby as I've been.
I've had PM's from people agreeing with what I've said, pity I'm the only one who's said it outright. Quite simply I just want people to be allowed to do whatever they want, swing, play, stay faithful, cheat if they want, and I think my intentions have been misinterpreted so I'll say no more.

If those members are honest with those they are playing with I have no issue with them. If they are not being honest, and taking away the right to choose from others then I believe that is unacceptable. You may believe differently, and have every right to say so. You do not have a right to suggest I cannot give my opinion in this thread, which is what you have suggested.
What you are saying is you want people to be able to be dishonest and not be criticised for it, and as that is something I could never agree with, we'll have to agree to differ.

21 Apr 2008

Quote by Unc

and?
so... Unc, my only crime is what? Have I said I agree with it? um no, have I said I disagree with it.. um yes.

Your 'crime', to use your over-emotive word, is to suggest that other people's opinions have less of a place in this thread than your own.

Quote by jaymar
what has been the passion behind my posts? I'm not just saying, and I use your quote, 'cheats' should not be judged, I'm saying... no one should be judged.

It isn't my quote, I used cheat because it was what you said you would never do. Everyone makes judgments every day, it's normal and natural. Everyone has a choice in deciding what is acceptable to them, and if not playing with someone who is playing behind their partners back, whatever their reasons, is unacceptable to someone, what right have you to say they shouldn't express that opinion?

Quote by jaymar
I speak for a few members in here who are, as you put it, 'cheating' and all I'll say in closing is that if you knew who they were and knew the reasons behind it you'd be as gobby as I've been.
I've had PM's from people agreeing with what I've said, pity I'm the only one who's said it outright. Quite simply I just want people to be allowed to do whatever they want, swing, play, stay faithful, cheat if they want, and I think my intentions have been misinterpreted so I'll say no more.

If those members are honest with those they are playing with I have no issue with them. If they are not being honest, and taking away the right to choose from others then I believe that is unacceptable. You may believe differently, and have every right to say so. You do not have a right to suggest I cannot give my opinion in this thread, which is what you have suggested.
What you are saying is you want people to be able to be dishonest and not be criticised for it, and as that is something I could never agree with, we'll have to agree to differ.
Have I said that? I want EVERYONE to be able to do what they want without PUBLIC critiscm, that's what I want...
oh whatever Unc, you're always starting barnies anyway so I ain't gonna rise to your posts when you've just appeared out of the blue!
Yes, agree to differ that's about the best of this now. Good day to you wink

21 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar
I think you've misinterpreted me Dawnie, my comments weren't directed at you personally but at the thread as a whole.

You quoted my comments and I felt the need to reply again dunno

If I got the situation wrong, I apologise :kiss:

Quote by jaymar
I speak for a few members in here who are, as you put it, 'cheating' and all I'll say in closing is that if you knew who they were and knew the reasons behind it you'd be as gobby as I've been.

I know some married swingers well, I am very close to a couple. However, I still wouldn't shag any of them whether I knew their reasons or not. In all honesty, I am happier not knowing their reasons so I can't pass judgement on why they are here.

21 Apr 2008

I've locked this thread for a while. It does seem to me like it is getting a little heated and I would rather not have to remove it.
I'll open it up again later so you can all reply with some calm thoughts :thumbup:
In edit - I'm going to open this back up but don't any of you forget the AUP please
http://www.swingingheaven.co.uk/main/aup.html

21 Apr 2008

Two vegetarians marry. Being vegetarian is very important to both of them. They have several children, a mortgage and all the trappings of married life. They are blissfully happy. A few years down the line they are still blissfully happy but one of them discovers a previously unknown lust for meat. Should she go to a friend’s house to eat a beefburger, knowing that her partner would be very upset if he found out. Should she lead the rest of her life meat free but feeling unfulfilled. Or should she just divorce him and take up with a carnivore? Wouldn't a white lie would be acceptable in this case?
Cheating is a very emotive word. Hands up anyone who hasn’t lied to a partner (ie cheated) about anything. Should be working late but down the pub? Scratch on the car? New shoes hidden at the bottom of the cupboard? Gambling the wages away? Shagged the neighbour? All cheating if not owned up to.
It’s funny that on a swinger’s site people get so wound up about a sexual act. In my view there are plenty of ways of cheating your partner that are far worse than rubbing two bits of epidermis together, but straight society views adultery as the worst of all. I have always felt that I would be far more upset at finding mrs northwest having an intimate but non-sexual dinner date without me knowing than her shagging behind my back.
Live and let live and leave the moralising for the clergy – they are paid to do it.

21 Apr 2008

A cliche perhaps, but...
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.
Wouldn't the world be a happier place?

21 Apr 2008

Quote by northwest-cpl
Two vegetarians marry. Being vegetarian is very important to both of them. They have several children, a mortgage and all the trappings of married life. They are blissfully happy. A few years down the line they are still blissfully happy but one of them discovers a previously unknown lust for meat. Should she go to a friend’s house to eat a beefburger, knowing that her partner would be very upset if he found out. Should she lead the rest of her life meat free but feeling unfulfilled. Or should she just divorce him and take up with a carnivore? Wouldn't a white lie would be acceptable in this case?

She could ask him, there is the posibility that he's thinking the exact same thing.
H.x

21 Apr 2008

Quote by H-x
Two vegetarians marry. Being vegetarian is very important to both of them. They have several children, a mortgage and all the trappings of married life. They are blissfully happy. A few years down the line they are still blissfully happy but one of them discovers a previously unknown lust for meat. Should she go to a friend’s house to eat a beefburger, knowing that her partner would be very upset if he found out. Should she lead the rest of her life meat free but feeling unfulfilled. Or should she just divorce him and take up with a carnivore? Wouldn't a white lie would be acceptable in this case?

She could ask him, there is the posibility that he's thinking the exact same thing.
H.x
Maybe she has discussed it and he's said no. What does she do? Divorce him over a beefburger or tell the white lie or live the rest of her life unfulfilled? Many on here would offer divorce as a solution if they are being consistent - would that be a reasonable solution to a beefburger lust if everything else in the marriage is perfectly ok?

21 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar

Please everyone, we've all got our morals and ideas, I would never ever play away and cheat on Jay, but we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it.
By the way has anyone in here stopped to think what we're doing by swinging is 'consented adultery'. It's most certainly not in our marriage vows is it? Are we as swingers in a position to get on our high horse and be all moralistic in the first place?
Unless we know the people and the facts, I say :gagged:

You say "we cannot comment or condem people who do because we do not know what is going on in their lives that are making them do it" but you have commented more than anyone else. You are of course entitled to your opinion that cheats should not be judged, but that right also extends to those people who do wish to judge cheats as people they do not wish to play with.

and? dunno

so... Unc, my only crime is what? Have I said I agree with it? um no, have I said I disagree with it.. um yes.
what has been the passion behind my posts? I'm not just saying, and I use your quote, 'cheats' should not be judged, I'm saying... no one should be judged.
I speak for a few members in here who are, as you put it, 'cheating' and all I'll say in closing is that if you knew who they were and knew the reasons behind it you'd be as gobby as I've been.
I've had PM's from people agreeing with what I've said, pity I'm the only one who's said it outright. Quite simply I just want people to be allowed to do whatever they want, swing, play, stay faithful, cheat if they want, and I think my intentions have been misinterpreted so I'll say no more.
Jaymar we judge people every day of the week. Be it on here or in the " real world ". Thats what humans do...judge others, because everyone is different, so we judge peoples morals and beliefs and behaviours...human nature. :shock:
Even though we would not play with people who " cheat " that is just our opinion. Others have different ones which is fair play. I feel the fundamental no1 thing in any relationship is TRUST. There is no trust if you can cheat, that is not meant to sound judgemental. It is a fact of life that the cheated party will always say the trust has gone.
I also feel some of the comments on this thread have been harsh and really near the mark but....it is a strong subject that will always give way to strong comments on both sides.

21 Apr 2008

oh goodness me,
what on earth is happening?
I find myself actually agreeing with kentswingers.
>splendid goes to finish a bottle of whisky to get some sense in her head<

21 Apr 2008

Quote by splendid_
oh goodness me,
what on earth is happening?
I find myself actually agreeing with kentswingers.
>splendid goes to finish a bottle of whisky to get some sense in her head<

:shock: :shock: Well that MUST be a first splendid?
I am in shock that you agree with me. lol

We cannot disagree on everything though surely? :lol:

21 Apr 2008

Quote by kentswingers777
oh goodness me,
what on earth is happening?
I find myself actually agreeing with kentswingers.
>splendid goes to finish a bottle of whisky to get some sense in her head<

:shock: :shock: Well that MUST be a first splendid?
I am in shock that you agree with me. lol

We cannot disagree on everything though surely? :lol:
I thought we could.
gosh, is nothing sacred anymore? rolleyes

21 Apr 2008

Quote by Whipsnspurs
i personally find comparing cheating sexually to eating a beefburger rather insulting.

Personally, I didn't view it as a comparison but as a simplified analogy (and not a bad one).
Pom & I don't plan on getting into deep philosophical hand-wringing about the state of a person's marriage and their reasons for wanting / needing to play away from home or what the consequences could be, any more than my local newsagent does every time he sells a packet of cigarettes to someone. By doing so, he could be assisting in that person developing a fatal disease leaving behind a bereft & devastated family. Mr Cigarette seller doesn't even enquire as to whether the smoker's family knows about his / her potentially fatal habit. He just sells cigarettes.
In an ideal world, couples would complement each other sexually and be totally fulfilled. Secondary to that, if there was an imbalance, one could smile sweetly to the other and say 'Darling, I know you're completely vanilla but I have a burning desire to have a bi experience ... that ok with you?' to which they would get a cheerful nod of approval. In the absence of either of these, what then?
It would be naive to think that, just because 'you' can talk about any and every aspect of sex to your partner, everyone can.
Now s'cuse me whilst I don my asbestos pants smile

21 Apr 2008

wow... okay I have been wondering whether to say anything in this debate, whether to say anything for fear of hurting some of the closet people i am too online....
I too got a pm from the person with regards to the situation and it did make me think a whole lot about the entire subject... i thanked them for their honesty in the matter and I respect them so much as a person that has never changed..... and I still love and respect that person to bits....
a lot of people who have been here in the forum will also remember the situation with regards to a specific member who use to be on this site..... really respected member of the site, of the forums, I don't think a bad word had ever been said about this person, was liked at munches and socials alike......
no one knew this person was married..... we had all been at a party with them one saturday night, getting an e-mail on the monday morning asking me if they had been drinking (to which the answer was no, drinking water and coffee all night) and then to find out this person had died in a road accident after they left...
then their "partner" found out about SH..... came on and wrote things in the forums that will stick with me for as long as I am around....the pain, the anger, the loss of someone who meant a lot to them.....
and it is at times like that, that within our own little "swinging world" that you do realised there are other people that are affected,
I am not going to judge anyone, its not my place to.. i don't know peoples lives... peoples motives.... but the one thing that will stick with me is a sense that people out there can be hurt by others actions, directly or indirectly.... and that is no part of what I want from my life, or the scene, or the world in general.....
sean xxxxxxxxxxxx

21 Apr 2008

Quote by Whipsnspurs
sugar, as i said, purely my way of seeing what was said. you see it another way fine. but maybe because you see it from the oposite side of the coin to me?

My side of the coin is far from absolute ...
But hey, differing opinions expressed in a reasonable way is what prevents life from becoming a tedious bore.
Diversity and debate ... society's adrenalin rush! :)

21 Apr 2008

Quote by Whipsnspurs
i personally find comparing cheating sexually to eating a beefburger rather insulting.

Quote by Sugar-n-pom
Personally, I didn't view it as a comparison but as a simplified analogy (and not a bad one).

Quote by Whipsnspurs
sugar, as i said, purely my way of seeing what was said. you see it another way fine. but maybe because you see it from the oposite side of the coin to me?

Quite why you should find it insulting I don't know since it was, as Sugar-n-pom have said, a simple analogy and not directed personally at you. Why is cheating over sex so much worse than cheating over anything else? I make no judgement over cheating, for or against, but ask the question, on a swinger's site why is sexual cheating seen as the ultimate sin? If we lie to our partner over anything we cheat.
I can understand that the non-swinging partner of a 'cheat' would likely view sexual cheating in the traditional 'nothing could be worse' way. I ask why so many 'sexually liberated' people on this site do the same. I would see alcoholism, drug addiction or gambling addiction to be 3 ways of cheating that are far more destructive to a relationship than playing away.

22 Apr 2008

Its beginning to sound like the main difference between cheaters and genuines is that:
Cheaters are recklessly willing to make fuck ups and suffer the consequences. Which involves a certain amount of risk and error.
Genuines are more protectionist and on their guard aginst making or finding themselves in a fuck up. Which involves more method and calculation in finding the assurances they need.
I don't suppose there is anything else but the two things to choose from, when organising sex. But good enough reasons to cause serious argument apparently.

22 Apr 2008

I was unsure if I should post my thoughts on this topic for fear or recrimination.
I have decided to.
Hubby and I thought long and hard about if we would consider meeting attached men. I questioned myself on my own level of forgiveness and come to this conclusion.
But first would just like to say I have been married for 21 years and yes have been cheating on (if that’s what you want to call it) 16 years ago. I forgave as I know it was about lack of sex at the time, and I wasn’t about to split a marriage and children up over a stupid fling with a girl at work.
My thoughts on this are, if my hubby over the years had met a couple for sex, then I would see it that he was looking for just sex, if he met a single I would be wondering what else he was looking for.
As a couple meeting a married man we are no threat to his life or his relationship, but in a funny kind of way could be helping to hold his marriage/ relationship together, also married men I find to be more loyal to us as we like to meet regular guys.
I don’t have guilt about doing this as at the end of the day they are consenting adults, but I would never meet a married man on this site that I know come on here with their wives or partners behind their partners back.
Hope this all makes sence!
I await the thrashings!

22 Apr 2008

Hi Minx
I was 'with you' up to the last bit then got a bit confused ... so you will play with a married guy but only with his partner's consent?
I agree with you that, somehow, an attached guy seeking an experience he couldn't reasonably get with his wife (3sum, bi encounter etc) indicates he's looking for something other than a sexual 'fling' - to itch a scratch that can't be satisfied in his vanilla relationship. Although me & Pom wouldn't rule an attached guy out altogether as a possible play partner, I wouldn't see one if I were unattached myself and playing alone.

22 Apr 2008

The last bit meant I chat to couples on the site as friends, I will banter and have a laugh with them, but I would not meet the men without their partners consent. I would a married man playing alone! And I agree with you I would never meet a married man if i was single.

22 Apr 2008

Quote by northwest-cpl
Why is cheating over sex so much worse than cheating over anything else? I make no judgement over cheating, for or against, but ask the question, on a swinger's site why is sexual cheating seen as the ultimate sin? If we lie to our partner over anything we cheat.
I can understand that the non-swinging partner of a 'cheat' would likely view sexual cheating in the traditional 'nothing could be worse' way. I ask why so many 'sexually liberated' people on this site do the same. I would see alcoholism, drug addiction or gambling addiction to be 3 ways of cheating that are far more destructive to a relationship than playing away.

Perhaps, at least for some, it is because they are sexually liberated. They have been through the process of realising they want more sexual variety than convention suggests they should have, discussing it with their partner, and by whatever route arriving here. They maybe feel that since they have done it, so should anyone else be able to.
For others it is about trust and being open. For many swinging isn't just about fucking other people, it's about the freedom to be themselves with other like-minded people in a world that often isn't nice to minorities. They may well think that someone who isn't honest about their sexual behaviour doesn't fit their view of what 'the scene' is about.
Yet others have been cheated on in the past and know the hurt it can cause, and therefore would not be a party to possibly being involved in inflicting that pain on the partners of cheats.
There are many other reasons, and many different views on the subject, and each one is right for the person that holds it. IMO the only wrong in this is when someone tries to tell everyone else that their view is the right one and that no other opinion should be expressed.

22 Apr 2008

We do,on occasion, meet single guys and to be honest if they are married or not is no concern of ours...
We are not here to act as anyones concience to be quite honest...
If we like the look/sound of the guy then we arrange a meeting.....

22 Apr 2008

Quote by Unc
There are many other reasons, and many different views on the subject, and each one is right for the person that holds it. IMO the only wrong in this is when someone tries to tell everyone else that their view is the right one and that no other opinion should be expressed.

Third dig... :roll:
I have never ever in my life tried to change someone's opinion - I just wouldn't do that, I'm very much for everyone having their own opinion (um my hundreds of previous posts indicate that).
My only downfall in this thread was 'attempting' to make people see that we shouldn't judge people PUBLICLY and my attempt was in vain because people got hurt by the end of yesterday's run. I do however acknowledge that people want to comment on their views on this matter.
Maybe my wording was wrong yesterday, maybe I was protecting two people I know who have a different slant on things, I don't know :doh: but those WHO KNOW ME know that I'm not the type to attempt to sway people's thinking. I'm very open minded and very non judgemental, again maybe that's my downfall? dunno

And on that note I'm going to disappear cool

22 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar

There are many other reasons, and many different views on the subject, and each one is right for the person that holds it. IMO the only wrong in this is when someone tries to tell everyone else that their view is the right one and that no other opinion should be expressed.

Third dig... :roll:
I have never ever in my life tried to change someone's opinion - I just wouldn't do that, I'm very much for everyone having their own opinion (um my hundreds of previous posts indicate that).
My only downfall in this thread was 'attempting' to make people see that we shouldn't judge people PUBLICLY and my attempt was in vain because people got hurt by the end of yesterday's run. I do however acknowledge that people want to comment on their views on this matter.
Maybe my wording was wrong yesterday, maybe I was protecting two people I know who have a different slant on things,I don't know :doh: but those WHO KNOW ME know that I'm not the type to attempt to sway people's thinking. I'm very open minded and very non judgemental, again maybe that's my downfall? dunno

And on that note I'm going to disappear cool

Its not a downfall but a most endearing feature :thumbup:

22 Apr 2008

Quote by jaymar

Third dig... :roll:

Mar, it wasn't a dig, though I can see why you think it is. Just as you feet strongly about the issues in this thread, I feel strongly about freedom of speech, and what appear to be attempts to stifle it. I never argued with your opinion on the thread subject, just with the fact that more than once you said those who believe 'cheating' is wrong shouldn't say so.

Quote by jaymar
I have never ever in my life tried to change someone's opinion - I just wouldn't do that, I'm very much for everyone having their own opinion (um my hundreds of previous posts indicate that).
My only downfall in this thread was 'attempting' to make people see that we shouldn't judge people PUBLICLY and my attempt was in vain because people got hurt by the end of yesterday's run. I do however acknowledge that people want to comment on their views on this matter.
Maybe my wording was wrong yesterday, maybe I was protecting two people I know who have a different slant on things, I don't know :doh: but those WHO KNOW ME know that I'm not the type to attempt to sway people's thinking. I'm very open minded and very non judgemental, again maybe that's my downfall?
And on that note I'm going to disappear

IMO there is nothing wrong with trying to sway someone else's opinion, as long as it's done in an acceptable, non-bullying way. After all an opinion is what you believe to be right, and it's by open discussion that people test and revise their opinions. If that didn't happen we'd never learn to see other points of view, or indeed learn that what we thought was cast in stone perhaps isn't.
Hopefully we both understand the other's standpoint a bit better and can discuss other topics in the future with that understanding.

22 Apr 2008

Quote by Unc

Third dig... :roll:

Mar, it wasn't a dig, though I can see why you think it is. Just as you feet strongly about the issues in this thread, I feel strongly about freedom of speech, and what appear to be attempts to stifle it. I never argued with your opinion on the thread subject, just with the fact that more than once you said those who believe 'cheating' is wrong shouldn't say so.

well i think cheating is wrong and i openly and shamelessly admit that and nothing anyone can say will change my opinion on that lol