Check In Desk!

22 Mar 2007

Quote by jaymar
Of course it does, but you have to admit, as does everyone, newbies often get a raw deal (even after they've had initial welcomes) - some just simply haven't a clue what it's all about and will run like frightened rabbits, I know this because I nearly did that! But I can name a handful of members that encouraged me back then and I will always remember that.

Jaymar
Just to put things in to perspective it's not just newbies who feel like that.
Earthy has written that she sometimes feels like she's ignored and she's not a newbie.
Sometimes people just don't know what to say.
Sometimes I miss a post that somebody's written asking me a question because I've gone to make a cup of coffee/put some washing in.
Sometimes I'm perving the ads/looking at other sites
I have never ever purposely ignored anyone, but I'm sure somebody at some point may have thought I have - be that a newer member or someone who's been on the forum for years.
There is an element of difficulty getting to the point where you feel like you "belong", but that's just natural. If you start a new job you probably won't feel like you're everybody's best friend on day one- it takes time to build up a rapport with people and the forums mirror real life in that respect.

Quote by blueandpink
I did want to reply to various people's points but I still haven't worked out how to quote multiple times in a reply!
pink x

You'll get there. I'd never been on a forum before I used this site and it took me a while to learn some of the basics.
If someone had done something I couldn't do e.g. multi-quote, I'd press the quote button next to their post to see how they'd done it.
If you want a practice at it, do a post and press the preview button to see what it looks like.
At first I used to have to press the preview button 5-6 times before I got it right and sometimes I never submitted the post because I just wanted to practice trying to do stuff.
Give it a try :thumbup:

22 Mar 2007

Quote by Miss_Kiss
Whilst the number of "you post isn't worthy/intersting/valid" people are about than new people things will carry on the same.

Remember the recent steam room storm, when one or two of us posted in there followed by an analogy during a few days of complete disheartenment over the loss of what probably (in my humble oppinion) would have been the best Munch this site has seen so far...
and it was taken completely out of context, proclaimed as being a 'they dont think we're posting up to standard' rant ? and the ensuing onslaught?
where the fook did that come from? dunno

It stunned me, and disappointed me into simply not being able to post a reply at the time! But your point above has reminded me of it.
Because it comes from this increasing 'regulars vs newbies' divide that is being created imo, and is almost tangible at the moment. And its bollox!
I'm really quite tired of having to be nice all the bloody time, encouraging pink fluffiness and feeling like I cant post what I think in case it upsets or offends anyone, and instead am limited to all this 'come come, everybody get involved, come on in the water's lovely' shite. And I do think that when the 'good old days' are spoken of, folk do have a point, because they've seen how good the forum can be.
did that sound like I have a million and one things going round and round in my head and they're all trying to come out at once? lol

22 Mar 2007

Quote by Darkfire
did that sound like I have a million and one things going round and round in my head and they're all trying to come out at once?

No I just thought Dark's getting a bit tired after carrying the "come post in the forum" sandwich board round for 2 weeks :giggle:

22 Mar 2007

The mear fact that this thread has rumbled on for so many pages shows how committed people are to the forum. biggrin

I am not one for to much introspection or navel gazing as I do this way to much in the real world confused

but I couldn't help noticing that of all the people who have posted on this thread recently the smallest post count was 600. This means that only old hands are posting or are concerned about the state of the forum.
Why is this?
Well, here's a theroy. Everyone posting here has gone through several phases in their forum life.
Nervous Newbie trying to work out what to say, an intial excitement when people respond to their posts
Settled in You've mastered the format, you're well known. You feel comfortable and happy with the medium
Old lag Been there, read that posted the t-shirt. It all seems a bit old hat now, there's no excitement and you begin to wonder why. You haven't changed so it must be the forum.
Truth you've changed and grown and the forum is the same. :D

22 Mar 2007

Quote by keeno
I couldn't help noticing that of all the people who have posted on this thread recently the smallest post count was 600. This means that only old hands are posting or are concerned about the state of the forum.
Why is this?

ready for a bit of controvesy?
because we give a shit.
This thread wasn't just for 'old lags' to post in, it was for everyone, because its not just the old hands who are missing from the forum, the banter and the posts.
But you do raise an interesting point about who has been posting in here & checking in..and those who havent bothered with it wink

22 Mar 2007

Quote by Miss_Kiss
So what if some people want to boost their post count? I think 99% of people agree it means f*ck all! What harm does it do?

I've been pretty outspoken on those types of threads in the past, but this is the only site I've done that.
Does is do any harm? Yes & No.
No if there are a mixture of funny/serious/pervy/flirty threads going on.
The problem is when the forum is slow like it is now. When the threads don't "take off".
It's all to easy to think "I want to boost my post count" and just post in that 1 thread.
People then reading the forums then think "Ah that threads really popular. It's on 12 pages - I'll start one of those".
Before you know it people are coming on the forums and that's what they see and think that's all the forum's about. They've got a post count of 1000 and never spoken to anyone.
OK I'm over exagerating the current situation, but people do try to "fit it" and so they join in with what they see in front of them.

Quote by Miss_Kiss
So what if a question has been asked before? Some people weren't here before. Don’t answer the thread!

Agreed, but to a point. If there are 6 "Cock size threads on page 1 then somethings wrong"
If there's a 20 page thread from a year ago then yes I think that warrants a new thread

22 Mar 2007

No flower, I meant that your sarcasm was unwarranted, you read far more into it than was actually there, and by doing so and posting it, you put that seed of thought into other people's heads. wink

22 Mar 2007

Quote by Darkfire
No flower, I meant that your sarcasm was unwarranted, you read far more into it than was actually there, and by doing so and posting it, you put that seed of thought into other people's heads.

Just give him a smackbottom

and get it over with lol

:wink:

22 Mar 2007

Personally I havent really followed this thread... as I too had a feeling it may well have been for the folk of longer-standing to shre thier own views anout good old days and such like... >just my *feeling*, I cant say that anyone has actually stated this<
so, this may have been asked....
when exactly were the good old days/
and what were they like?
were there still pit ponies, and gas light?
or are we talking about a time more recent... colour tv perhaps?
Ive only been in and out of these forums for a little while, and the post count doesnt really reflect that.. only having risen more recently... though I feel also that niether time nor count have me feeling I belong in anyway... thats more personal I guess.
what, generally, is so differnet now in comparisson to the good old days?
lp

22 Mar 2007

Quote by LondonPlaything
Personally I havent really followed this thread... as I too had a feeling it may well have been for the folk of longer-standing to shre thier own views anout good old days and such like... >just my *feeling*, I cant say that anyone has actually stated this<
lp

fook it I give up smile

I've clearly said what this thread was for, and in the first few pages it was running exactly as I'd hoped - the forum is quiet, so just check in and say why you're not here. It worked perfectly in that there were no 'ohhh i'm sorry to hear that :therethere:' follow-ups or 'ohhh woe is me' type posts - people did what i indended them to do and that was pm their friends and rekindle a few conversations while still letting us all know they're still around and havent deserted us completely. That was it, pure and simple.
Then it all kinda went to pot with a few misinterpretations and digs.....
but, I dont care, people are posting nowarnt they! :bounce: :bounce: :P so I'm off out for coffee..its all yours :thumbup:

22 Mar 2007

oh I see, sorry.
well... errrm
lp

22 Mar 2007

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
So what if some people want to boost their post count? I think 99% of people agree it means f*ck all! What harm does it do?

I've been pretty outspoken on those types of threads in the past, but this is the only site I've done that.
Does is do any harm? Yes & No.
No if there are a mixture of funny/serious/pervy/flirty threads going on.
The problem is when the forum is slow like it is now. When the threads don't "take off".
It's all to easy to think "I want to boost my post count" and just post in that 1 thread.
People then reading the forums then think "Ah that threads really popular. It's on 12 pages - I'll start one of those".
Before you know it people are coming on the forums and that's what they see and think that's all the forum's about. They've got a post count of 1000 and never spoken to anyone.
OK I'm over exagerating the current situation, but people do try to "fit it" and so they join in with what they see in front of them.

Quote by Miss_Kiss
So what if a question has been asked before? Some people weren't here before. Don’t answer the thread!

Agreed, but to a point. If there are 6 "Cock size threads on page 1 then somethings wrong"
If there's a 20 page thread from a year ago then yes I think that warrants a new thread
Hi HLB,
I don't disagree with anything you have said. But in a nutshell I think that if there was perhaps a seperate area for the 'b*ll*cks' and the 'pointless' maybe, just maybe some people may feel able to take part in the more serious debates.
I'm not suggesting that 6 threads on cock size is going to benefit anyone but it's up to the site to organise things better IMHO. Having only 1 'chit chat' area that has no sub sections or structure makes things very difficult to search for.
I also think that if the 'post counters' (and really WHO are they? I really haven't seen anyone get any real kudos from their post count!) are allowed a section to do their own merry thing, then those who are offended by it don't have to see it.
I just think something is needed to bring in fresh blood, I just don't know what.

22 Mar 2007

Quote by Miss_Kiss
Hi HLB,
I don't disagree with anything you have said. But in a nutshell I think that if there was perhaps a seperate area for the 'b*ll*cks' and the 'pointless' maybe, just maybe some people may feel able to take part in the more serious debates.

I'm not sure a separate forum is the best way to go. When there are very few users on line already, splitting the forums just reduces the diversity even more

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I'm not suggesting that 6 threads on cock size is going to benefit anyone but it's up to the site to organise things better IMHO.

Yep agreed.
I do think that repeating threads is sometimes good as new people can take a thread in a totally different direction.
But in cases such as "cock size" "chatroom not working" I think you have to put a link in to the last one, merge them together etc

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I also think that if the 'post counters' (and really WHO are they? I really haven't seen anyone get any real kudos from their post count!) are allowed a section to do their own merry thing, then those who are offended by it don't have to see it.

Oh they are. Only last week I was listening to a conversation between 3 people discussing how they'd posted "any old bollox" just because they wanted to get to the 1000 milestone.
And I think we all have to take a responsibility for people thinking that this is of some importance.

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I just think something is needed to bring in fresh blood, I just don't know what.

I agree, but I don't think it's anyone thing. But I don't think people posting 1 word posts actually achieves anything.
In order for people to get to know each other on here they have to interact.
I do see that some threads help people to join in, but I think it's how they join in that counts. e.g. Post count/game threads - not my thing, but I do think there are different types e.g.
Word Association/Clock Thread - no interaction, boring to read.
Desert Island Discs/Shoot, shag or marry - light hearted, but allow people to offer their personal preferences and a bit of interaction.
Now like I said I do have concerns about the forum being overrun with these, but of the two types I'd definately prefer the latter.

22 Mar 2007

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
I'm not sure a separate forum is the best way to go. When there are very few users on line already, splitting the forums just reduces the diversity even more

I wasn't suggesting in a divisive way so to speak. More like sub sections to help people navigate.
I know a huge majority of SH's member don't use the forum but I'm guessing that with a possible 686,419 members (give or take a few 1000 for various reasons) The Cafe isn't set up to encourage large numbers of postings.
Yes there used to be 300 members posting and not 30 but I still think expanding the forum and adding sub-section categories is the way to go.

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I'm not suggesting that 6 threads on cock size is going to benefit anyone but it's up to the site to organise things better IMHO.

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
Yep agreed.
I do think that repeating threads is sometimes good as new people can take a thread in a totally different direction.

I feel too that yes some people come to 'learn' about various things but also just to connect and strike up some contact, hence why I think certain obvious questions keep cropping up - not because people don't know the answer but because they are trying to break the ice. Sometimes reading the old thread isn't going to satisfy.

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
But in cases such as "cock size" "chatroom not working" I think you have to put a link in to the last one, merge them together etc

:tumbup:

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I also think that if the 'post counters' (and really WHO are they? I really haven't seen anyone get any real kudos from their post count!) are allowed a section to do their own merry thing, then those who are offended by it don't have to see it.

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
Oh they are. Only last week I was listening to a conversation between 3 people discussing how they'd posted "any old bollox" just because they wanted to get to the 1000 milestone.

Why am I so disturbed by this? confused

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
And I think we all have to take a responsibility for people thinking that this is of some importance.

Definitely. I'd be up for doing away with post counts in general. To me they serve no purpose.

Quote by Miss_Kiss
I just think something is needed to bring in fresh blood, I just don't know what.

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
I agree, but I don't think it's anyone thing. But I don't think people posting 1 word posts actually achieves anything.
In order for people to get to know each other on here they have to interact.
I do see that some threads help people to join in, but I think it's how they join in that counts. e.g. Post count/game threads - not my thing, but I do think there are different types e.g.
Word Association/Clock Thread - no interaction, boring to read.
Desert Island Discs/Shoot, shag or marry - light hearted, but allow people to offer their personal preferences and a bit of interaction.
Now like I said I do have concerns about the forum being overrun with these, but of the two types I'd definately prefer the latter.

I don't want the Cafe being over-run with any one particular type of thread, hence I'm back to the subsectioning idea.
Ho hum! lol

22 Mar 2007

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde

In order for people to get to know each other on here they have to interact.
I do see that some threads help people to join in, but I think it's how they join in that counts. e.g. Post count/game threads - not my thing, but I do think there are different types e.g.
Word Association/Clock Thread - no interaction, boring to read.
Desert Island Discs/Shoot, shag or marry - light hearted, but allow people to offer their personal preferences and a bit of interaction.
Now like I said I do have concerns about the forum being overrun with these, but of the two types I'd definately prefer the latter.

I don't want the Cafe being over-run with any one particular type of thread, hence I'm back to the subsectioning idea.
Is there anything you do like? :shock:
These are all just your vies HLB, no disrespect but there are plenty out here who enjoy the threads you have highlighted as not being 'your cup of tea'.
I acknowledge your perception is you don't want the forum to be overrun with one type of thread, but actually others may well enjoy them. lol

-

22 Mar 2007

Popular threads live biggrin

Unpopular threads die :cry:
This is a pretty ruthless system on topics but forum users do get to choose what the they read by posting on threads they like.

22 Mar 2007

Quote by jaymar
Of course it does, but you have to admit, as does everyone, newbies often get a raw deal (even after they've had initial welcomes) - some just simply haven't a clue what it's all about and will run like frightened rabbits, I know this because I nearly did that! But I can name a handful of members that encouraged me back then and I will always remember that.

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
Jaymar
Just to put things in to perspective it's not just newbies who feel like that.
Earthy has written that she sometimes feels like she's ignored and she's not a newbie.

Um... I don't need it putting into perspective. It's true new people do OFTEN get a raw deal and it's true some other members get a raw deal also. I wasn't just putting new people on a pedestal you know!

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
Sometimes people just don't know what to say.
Sometimes I miss a post that somebody's written asking me a question because I've gone to make a cup of coffee/put some washing in.
Sometimes I'm perving the ads/looking at other sites
I have never ever purposely ignored anyone, but I'm sure somebody at some point may have thought I have - be that a newer member or someone who's been on the forum for years.

Is this for my benefit or others? I haven't mentioned ignoring have I? confused

I happen to think you are fine as you are

Quote by HornyLittleBlonde
There is an element of difficulty getting to the point where you feel like you "belong",

Sorry, disagree here, I'm not here to feel like I "belong", I'm here because I enjoy it and because I like the banter, I'm not wanting to be part of a club..I'm just me and if noone likes that, tough titty basically (whoaaaaaaaa waits for the stampede!)

22 Mar 2007

Quote by anais
:thumbup: Anais
its funny you should say that actually, I've noticed the same stop start stop start absence of anything substantial thing too with other 'group' & community type stuff I'm involved in in the vanilla world...

Great stuff, my fav subject :thumbup:
I specialised in community studies (fascinating stuff) at Uni. As part of my studies I once did an assignment on virtual and real communities (my arguement was they would be basically be the same). I found that the majority of stuff etc that happen in the real world, happen online too.. mmmm must dig it out again, re-read it and see if I still agree with it all!
Very interesting subject "virtual communities" …… $ spent in the last 24hours in Second Life (a virtual world). People buy virtual property, virtual cars, and virtual clothes from virtual shops with real sponsors paying money to advertise in a virtual world!!!!!!!! !
Ive spent a lot playing monolopy etc confused

:lol:
I was wondering ……. in the context of "monopoly" what could the "etc" mean? .... cludo maybe, or buckaroo or maybe something more sinister?? :shock:

22 Mar 2007

Quote by jaymar
Is there anything you do like? :shock:

The last time I looked, the only thing I said I didn't like was post count bump threads with no interaction

Quote by jaymar
These are all just your vies HLB, no disrespect but there are plenty out here who enjoy the threads you have highlighted as not being 'your cup of tea'.

Yep
That's why I've mentioned the need for diversity of people and threads and that my I wouldn't want to see the forum overum with any one type of thread wink

And as you quite rightly stated it is my personal opinion and my thoughts. I don't expect everyone to agree with it. If we all thought exactly the same way, the forum would be very dull indeed biggrin

22 Mar 2007

Quote by earthchild
:thumbup: Anais
its funny you should say that actually, I've noticed the same stop start stop start absence of anything substantial thing too with other 'group' & community type stuff I'm involved in in the vanilla world...

Great stuff, my fav subject :thumbup:
I specialised in community studies (fascinating stuff) at Uni. As part of my studies I once did an assignment on virtual and real communities (my arguement was they would be basically be the same). I found that the majority of stuff etc that happen in the real world, happen online too.. mmmm must dig it out again, re-read it and see if I still agree with it all!
Very interesting subject "virtual communities" …… $ spent in the last 24hours in Second Life (a virtual world). People buy virtual property, virtual cars, and virtual clothes from virtual shops with real sponsors paying money to advertise in a virtual world!!!!!!!!
……… and back to the thread; I opine that the site does what it says on the tin, it puts like minded people together for sex. It’s working for us!3
sorry but for a lot of us this site is far more than just sex
earthchild ... I do appreciate that to a lot of people this site is many things and I was in no way knocking that fact. My point (albeit one I possibly understated) was simply that it is predominantly a swinging site and that most people joining the site will be doing so for the sex element (be that real or virtual) and hence as the site membership numbers grow the ‘sex’ element is bound to grow disproportionately to the ‘other’ interests element. Also until you have been on the site for a while I don’t think you appreciate that there is an under/ultra/outer society based around those ‘other’ interests and now, possibly due again to the membership numbers involved, I think it’s difficult to nurture relationships in the same way as maybe it was as part of a small(er) group.
Although mrs cuk and me have been members of the site for several years (way before the change over) we have only been to one party and one munch(NW), both of which were in the last 12-months, and my grand total of threads started in the forums is 1 (which got replies) … but nonetheless I do chip in to others’ threads when possible, so whilst I am not generally using the site in a “vanilla” social context I do appreciate that others are. However, I don’t rule out doing so, so if any of ‘you’ see me at the Wigan munch please befriend me and chat about walking and camping and how the guitar lessons are coming on (just don’t mention work or DIY) xx
smile

22 Mar 2007

Quote by cukman
:thumbup: Anais
its funny you should say that actually, I've noticed the same stop start stop start absence of anything substantial thing too with other 'group' & community type stuff I'm involved in in the vanilla world...

Great stuff, my fav subject :thumbup:
I specialised in community studies (fascinating stuff) at Uni. As part of my studies I once did an assignment on virtual and real communities (my arguement was they would be basically be the same). I found that the majority of stuff etc that happen in the real world, happen online too.. mmmm must dig it out again, re-read it and see if I still agree with it all!
Very interesting subject "virtual communities" …… $ spent in the last 24hours in Second Life (a virtual world). People buy virtual property, virtual cars, and virtual clothes from virtual shops with real sponsors paying money to advertise in a virtual world!!!!!!!!
……… and back to the thread; I opine that the site does what it says on the tin, it puts like minded people together for sex. It’s working for us!3
sorry but for a lot of us this site is far more than just sex
earthchild ... I do appreciate that to a lot of people this site is many things and I was in no way knocking that fact. My point (albeit one I possibly understated) was simply that it is predominantly a swinging site and that most people joining the site will be doing so for the sex element (be that real or virtual) and hence as the site membership numbers grow the ‘sex’ element is bound to grow disproportionately to the ‘other’ interests element. Also until you have been on the site for a while I don’t think you appreciate that there is an under/ultra/outer society based around those ‘other’ interests and now, possibly due again to the membership numbers involved, I think it’s difficult to nurture relationships in the same way as maybe it was as part of a small(er) group.
Although mrs cuk and me have been members of the site for several years (way before the change over) we have only been to one party and one munch(NW), both of which were in the last 12-months, and my grand total of threads started in the forums is 1 (which got replies) … but nonetheless I do chip in to others’ threads when possible, so whilst I am not generally using the site in a “vanilla” social context I do appreciate that others are. However, I don’t rule out doing so, so if any of ‘you’ see me at the Wigan munch please befriend me and chat about walking and camping and how the guitar lessons are coming on (just don’t mention work or DIY) xx
smile

bollox have just sat and typed a huge reply and deleted it by mistake feck!!!
in brief, yes people do use the site for just sex, only do the ads etc, but by using the forums chat rooms etc they already join in the social side of things.
unless these mediums of the site are used people generally wont find out about socials n munchs etc
for me this is my lifestyle and i have spent the time on forums munchs and socials making some damn fine friends and using them as a good networking tool also for meeting potential playmates and seeing if we click.
as i dont intend sodding off anywhere i want to make long term friendships and swinging relationships, as i tend not to do one night stands unless i am in the chat room and extremely horny lol i like to meet people more than once i certainly dont use the site for 'vanilla' purposes although some do and thats cool too.
of course i'll come say hello at wigan the britlliant thig about this site is that people use it for lots of different reasons, with lots of different opinions and we can all go about it in an adult manner.
my first response was much better and i am such a tw*t for hitting the wrong button mad

Earthy xx

23 Mar 2007

cukman<<<<<<<<< wipes sweat from brow after reading first word in Earthchild's resonse
after further reading biggrin

23 Mar 2007

Hello!!!

23 Mar 2007

Quote by Happy Cats
Hello!!!

shit, who left the cat flap open it was supposed to be nailed down,
HC passionkiss

23 Mar 2007

Quote by earthchild
Hello!!!

shit, who left the cat flap open it was supposed to be nailed down,
HC passionkiss

I sneaked in, my only motive to liven up the forums for both oldies and newbies alike
My work is done
lol

23 Mar 2007

Quote by Happy Cats
Hello!!!

shit, who left the cat flap open it was supposed to be nailed down,
HC passionkiss

I sneaked in, my only motive to liven up the forums for both oldies and newbies alike
My work is done
lol

and we are just all so grateful that
you fooked off again
:lol:

23 Mar 2007

Quote by blueandpink
The major thing (for me) that brought previous cycles, full circle were the people. But many of them are no longer here, and/or, have changed.

To Dammie
Are you saying that us newer folk are less interesting? confused

Because that's how it reads to me and if that's what you meant then that is a little one sided saying that members past are mourned for being more interesting than current posters. dunno

Not sure if that sits with me well.
pink x
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.
What I'm saying is . . . . . . .
The major thing (for me) that brought previous cycles, full circle were the people. But many of them are no longer here, and/or, have changed.

23 Mar 2007

dont understand why people getting thier knickers in a twist over this, this forum is for fun and enjoyment with lots of informative bits.
im still new to a certain extent yes i know says joined sept 2006 but was lurking till december last year and yes i have got over 600 posts :shock: where did that come from. dont give 2 hoots if i reach 1000 or 2 its all about fun.

23 Mar 2007

Quote by Ukwineman
dont understand why people getting thier knickers in a twist over this, this forum is for fun and enjoyment with lots of informative bits.
im still new to a certain extent yes i know says joined sept 2006 but was lurking till december last year and yes i have got over 600 posts :shock: where did that come from. dont give 2 hoots if i reach 1000 or 2 its all about fun.

:thumbup:
My Grandma used to say to me "You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. You cannot please all people all of the time but you can please some people some of the time..."
How right she was. lol

23 Mar 2007

dont understand why people getting thier knickers in a twist over this, this forum is for fun and enjoyment with lots of informative bits.
im still new to a certain extent yes i know says joined sept 2006 but was lurking till december last year and yes i have got over 600 posts :shock: where did that come from. dont give 2 hoots if i reach 1000 or 2 its all about fun.

:thumbup:
My Grandma used to say to me "You are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. You cannot please all people all of the time but you can please some people some of the time..."
How right she was. lol

Wow that phrase haven't heard in a while Winey, and Jaymar - Grandma's do speak much wisdom so to this I say "Onwards and upwards". smile

pink x