Condom Logic #3

28 Nov 2004

The condom collectors of Swingingland all wear special condoms in their buttonholes to identify themselves as members of the collector clan. Some wear green condoms and some wear orange ones. When asked a yes/no question, the wearers of green condoms always tell the truth, while those who wear orange condoms always lie.
Shortly after the recent raid on the Munch (Condom Logic #1), the leader of the condom collectors, who wears a green condom, learns that an irate Muncher has disguised himself as a condom collector in order to get into the condom dealer's shop (Condom Logic #2) without arousing suspicion, and stolen 100 condoms in an act of revenge. The shop's surveillence tape reveals that the thief has forgotten to wear a buttonhole.
The leader sends out two agents to capture the thief. One agent wears a green condom, the other wears an orange one. The agents soon track the thief down and arrest him. However, in the ensuing scuffle, the agents lose their buttonhole condoms, so the identity of the thief is now in doubt. The three suspects are brought before the leader, who makes the following decree:
"I will ask each of you in turn a yes/no question, and I will stop questioning as soon as any one of you is proved to be either agent or thief."
Of the three suspects, we know that one will lie, one will tell the truth, and one - the thief - may lie or tell the truth as he chooses.
The Leader asks the first suspect "Are you the thief?" and the man gives his answer.
The leader then asks the second suspect "Is the first man lying?" and the second suspect gives his answer.
Then the leader asks the third suspect "Are you the thief?"
On hearing the third suspect's answer, the leader convicts one of the men as the thief.
Which one did he convict?

28 Nov 2004

The second one??? dunno

28 Nov 2004

The one identified from the CCTV!
Mal
cool

28 Nov 2004

Quote by mal609
The one identified from the CCTV!
Mal

In which case no questions would have been asked. :P

28 Nov 2004

Lateral thinking!! lol

Mal

28 Nov 2004

sooooo 1st Q to the liar
Are you the thief = yes
2nd Q to the truthful
Did he just lie = yes
3rd Q to the maybe true maybe lies
Are you the thief = yes
they all answered yes :shock: :shock: :shock:
How can you tell from that????????????????? :confused: dunno

28 Nov 2004

Quote by MISSCHIEF
sooooo 1st Q to the liar
Are you the thief = yes
2nd Q to the truthful
Did he just lie = yes
3rd Q to the maybe true maybe lies
Are you the thief = yes
they all answered yes :shock: :shock: :shock:
How can you tell from that????????????????? :confused:

Who told you they all answered yes? If they did all answer yes, what would that tell you? What other possible combinations of answers are there? What combinations of answers are not possible? Which combinations of answers guarantee a conviction after exactly three questions?
Come on, you didn't think this would be easy did you? :twisted:

28 Nov 2004

Answers to questions are yes, yes, yes
Therefore_
Truthteller must be number two as he would not answer yes to Q 1 or 3
Therefore as he said number 1 was lying the thief must be number 3. (The thief would have been telling the truth to Q 1.)
.............
Also works with answers no, yes, no with reverse logic. (Thief still number 3 but liar is no 2)

28 Nov 2004

Okayyyyyyyyyyyyy sooooo
If we done the scenario again
Q1 to maybe truth maybe lies
Are you the thief = yes/no
Q2 to Truthful
Did he just lie = yes/no (depending on how 'maybe' answers)
Q 3 to liar
Are you the thief = yes
Or put 'maybe' in the middle
Q1 to truthful
Are you the thief = no
Q 2 to maybe
Did he lie = yes/no
Q3 to liar
Are you the thief = yes
OK Ice ............ does this guy just ask one question to each person? and then guess the thief?
Or does he swap em about and ask the same questions?

28 Nov 2004

Ice please tell me if I'm reading this wrong somewhere!!!!! Did he just ask the set of Qs once, or loads of times in different order?

28 Nov 2004

Ice you're not answering me ........ I can feel another phone call coming on :fuckinghell: banghead

28 Nov 2004

I think you are reading more into it than you need to Missy.
Because the answers were yes yes yes - then he was able to make a deduction about who it was. If it had been a different set of answers then he would have had to ask more questions.
I think

28 Nov 2004

Quote by celticq
I think you are reading more into it than you need to Missy.
Because the answers were yes yes yes - then he was able to make a deduction about who it was. If it had been a different set of answers then he would have had to ask more questions.
I think

That is my reasoning as well, and as far as I can tell the logic works with the answers No, Yes, No as well. Either way the thief must be number 3.
Also with different answers he would stop at question 2, not becuse he knew who the thief was but because he would know number 3 was an agent. If I am reading the following right.

"I will ask each of you in turn a yes/no question, and I will stop questioning as soon as any one of you is proved to be either agent or thief."

28 Nov 2004

Quote by celticq
Because the answers were yes yes yes

Were the answers yes yes yes? That was just me doing a scenario, which would only happen if you asked in in this order Liar, Truthful, maybe ............... hold on a min
got a thought comin :shock:

28 Nov 2004

Quote by MISSCHIEF
got a thought comin :shock:

Oops, false alarm - it was a burp :undecided:

28 Nov 2004

Did you phone him yet? Did you? Did you?
I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear you burping down the line at him!
I personally think if I was the agent I'd have choosen better questions!!!!!

28 Nov 2004

Nope, not phoned yet.......... but have just noticed that I have put all the wrong anwers to the scenarios for Q3 rolleyes

think i'm on to something .......... have a horrid feeling that Roger has already solved it, but luckily I couldn't understand what he said, so can carry on with my solving :lol2:

28 Nov 2004

Misschief - do not read is my step by step reasoning:-
Q1 - Answer yes - must be either thief or liar
Q2 - Answer no - must be either truthteller(if 1 is Thief) or thief (if 1 is Liar) Therefore either 1 or 2 must be the thief, therfore no. 3 must be one of the agents
Q2 - Answer yes - would be Liar if No 1 was thief or either thief or Truthteller if No 1 was Liar. (Cannot tell who any of the 3 are so ask next question)
Q3 - Answer yes - must be thief because if No.1 was thief we know no.2 must be the liar in order to answer yes to Q2. (Truthteller would have said no to Q2 and only liar or thief can say yes to Q's 1 and 3)
So answers are Yes, Yes, Yes with Thief being number 3.
Well Ice? am I right?

28 Nov 2004

:lol: :lol: I laughing because the first thing I did was get the Truthful person mixed up with the Thief. So I changed him to Honest person so that I had T, H and L. I notice that everyone else has called him truthful person and wondered how you did not get muddled up in your workings :lol: :lol: :lol:

28 Nov 2004

Have also concluded I am the saddest git on this site - since this has certainly been a busy weekend with all the beautiful or pervy or just plain swinging folk off having fun - the only entertainment I've had for the weekend is solving puzzles set by a fingerbob :P
: : Note to self - Get a life : :

28 Nov 2004

LOL I've called my thief 'Maybe' cos he answers either way! :shock:
CQ, not only am I a saddo for doing nowt sexy all weekend, but also have scored second to last on the 'how fuckable are you' quiz :shock:
anyway ............. Roger, the last thing you should put is 'don't read this' in big writing!!! smackbottom

It might have been a secret that you were trying to make me not see!!! :shock:
sooooooooo Roger, the anwers could have been
Yes/no (by maybe) Yes/no (by truthful, depending on maybes answer) and Yes (by liar)
So might not have answered yes yes yes, could've said no yes yes ....... or no no no if you swap truthful and maybe over :shock:

29 Nov 2004

Ok this is in my head so explanation is a bit messy.
It is not possible to have the answer Yes No Yes
If they all say Yes Yes Yes
Q1 liar says yes
Q2 truth says yes
Q3 thief says yes
There is no other way to get all three saying yes apart from that order.
If the three men answer in any other order then there are other sequence of answers but more than one sequence of men to get those answers and so more questions are needed.
i think rolleyes

29 Nov 2004

Quote by cplonamission
Ok this is in my head :

Ha your head must be fingerbob shaped too then
mad

:x
Yeah yeah I did them all in my head too! There are no bits of paper all over the place, no flip charts - no nothing like that. Honest guv lol

Ha - cplonamission right - a mission to flippin flip me right flippin off :lol:
Just jealous rolleyes

29 Nov 2004

Sorry Celticq,
Anything i can do to cheer you up lol

29 Nov 2004

Quote by cplonamission
Ok this is in my head so explanation is a bit messy.
It is not possible to have the answer Yes No Yes
If they all say Yes Yes Yes
Q1 liar says yes
Q2 truth says yes
Q3 thief says yes
There is no other way to get all three saying yes apart from that order.
If the three men answer in any other order then there are other sequence of answers but more than one sequence of men to get those answers and so more questions are needed.
i think

ok add to what i said earlier
if the answers are
1)yyy
2)nyn
3)nny
4)nnn
then there is only one possible combination for the men to be in for those answers (and i did need a bit of paper for this)
for 1) it is the third man
2)the third man
3)the second man
4)the first man
that better be it.

29 Nov 2004

Quote by Ice Pie
Which one did he convict?

Obviously depends on the judicial system in this land, but I would say none, as conviction is the job of the judge.

29 Nov 2004

OOOh - good one marmalaid!! i agree with you!!!

29 Nov 2004

Phew!
Some of you have got it partly right, some have got it all right, some have explained your answers, some haven't... I'm exhausted analysing all your answers, but here goes - answers to everyone in one very long post that'll bore the tits off anyone who chooses to read on against their better judgement. ;)

Quote by MISSCHIEF
OK Ice ............ does this guy just ask one question to each person? and then guess the thief?
Or does he swap em about and ask the same questions?

He asks each suspect one question each as described, then he stops because he knows who the thief is.
___________________________________

Quote by MISSCHIEF
Because the answers were yes yes yes

Were the answers yes yes yes? That was just me doing a scenario, which would only happen if you asked in in this order Liar, Truthful, maybe ............... hold on a min
got a thought comin :shock:
If the answers were YYY then your analysis would be correct. However, that is not the only possible set of answers that would cause the trial to end after exactly three questions.
___________________________________

Quote by celticq
I think you are reading more into it than you need to Missy.
Because the answers were yes yes yes

Are you assuming those were the answers, or do you have a reason for thinking they were?

- then he was able to make a deduction about who it was. If it had been a different set of answers then he would have had to ask more questions.
I think

If the answers were YYY, what deduction would he have made?
___________________________________

Quote by rogerthedragon
I think you are reading more into it than you need to Missy.
Because the answers were yes yes yes - then he was able to make a deduction about who it was. If it had been a different set of answers then he would have had to ask more questions.
I think

That is my reasoning as well, and as far as I can tell the logic works with the answers No, Yes, No as well. Either way the thief must be number 3.
Also with different answers he would stop at question 2, not becuse he knew who the thief was but because he would know number 3 was an agent. If I am reading the following right.

"I will ask each of you in turn a yes/no question, and I will stop questioning as soon as any one of you is proved to be either agent or thief."

Correct on all counts. :thumbup:
The only possible sets of answers to those particular three questions which would result in a definite conviction are YYY and NYN, and in both cases the third man would be identified as the thief. I'll explain the reasoning fully after I've answered everyone else's posts. biggrin

___________________________________

Quote by MISSCHIEF
Because the answers were yes yes yes

Were the answers yes yes yes? That was just me doing a scenario, which would only happen if you asked in in this order Liar, Truthful, maybe ............... hold on a min
got a thought comin :shock:
Yes, but that's not the only solution. Roger has found the other solution. smile

___________________________________

Quote by rogerthedragon
Here is my step by step reasoning:-
Q1 - Answer yes - must be either thief or liar
Q2 - Answer no - must be either truthteller(if 1 is Thief) or thief (if 1 is Liar) Therefore either 1 or 2 must be the thief, therfore no. 3 must be one of the agents
Q2 - Answer yes - would be Liar if No 1 was thief or either thief or Truthteller if No 1 was Liar. (Cannot tell who any of the 3 are so ask next question)
Q3 - Answer yes - must be thief because if No.1 was thief we know no.2 must be the liar in order to answer yes to Q2. (Truthteller would have said no to Q2 and only liar or thief can say yes to Q's 1 and 3)
So answers are Yes, Yes, Yes with Thief being number 3.
Well Ice? am I right?

Yes, you have correctly analysed this particular scenario, but there is another which gives the same result.
___________________________________

Quote by MISSCHIEF
sooooooooo Roger, the anwers could have been
Yes/no (by maybe) Yes/no (by truthful, depending on maybes answer) and Yes (by liar)
So might not have answered yes yes yes, could've said no yes yes ....... or no no no if you swap truthful and maybe over :shock:

NYY is possible but would not lead to a definite conclusion after only 3 questions, and NNN is not possible for reasons I'll explain shortly.
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Quote by cplonamission
Ok this is in my head so explanation is a bit messy.
It is not possible to have the answer Yes No Yes
This is true.
If they all say Yes Yes Yes
Q1 liar says yes
Q2 truth says yes
Q3 thief says yes
There is no other way to get all three saying yes apart from that order.

Correct. :)
However...

If the three men answer in any other order then there are other sequence of answers but more than one sequence of men to get those answers and so more questions are needed.

Not true. :twisted:
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Quote by cplonamission
ok add to what i said earlier
if the answers are
1)yyy
2)nyn
3)nny
4)nnn
then there is only one possible combination for the men to be in for those answers (and i did need a bit of paper for this)
for 1) it is the third man
2)the third man
3)the second man
4)the first man
that better be it.

1) Correct
2) Correct
3) Wrong. NNY is impossible.
4) Wrong. NNN is impossible.
___________________________________
Here's the full explanation:
Firstly, we can rule out the answer to the second question being NO, because that would mean that the first two suspects are either both telling the truth or both lying, meaning one of them must be the thief and so the third suspect would be acquitted on the second question. (Remember, the questioning stops when anyone is proved guilty OR innocent.) So, all the sequences ?N? are ruled out.
Next, note that the first and third answers must be the same because YYN and NYY don't lead to a definite conclusion:
In the case of YYN the suspects could be either (Liar, Honest, Thief) or (Thief, Liar, Honest) and so the second suspect would be acquitted because he's definitely an agent.
If the answers were NYY, the suspects could be (Honest, Liar, Thief) or (Thief, Honest, Liar) and again the second suspect must be an agent. (Remember, the trial actually ended when somone was convicted, not acquitted.)
So the only remaining possible sets of answers are YYY and NYN.
If the answers are YYY, then the second suspect must be Honest because he wouldn't say he was the Liar. If he is Honest, then his answer identifies the first suspect as the Liar, which leaves the third suspect as the Thief.
If NYN then the second suspect must be the Liar, because if the Liar were the first or second suspect, he would have answered Yes to being the Thief. If the second suspect is the Liar, then he falsely accuses the first suspect, so the first suspect must be Honest because if the first suspect were the Thief, the Liar would have answered No, so again this leaves the third suspect as the Thief.
Conclusion
There are two possible sets of answers that would lead to a conviction after three questions - YYY and NYN - and in both cases the third suspect is proved to be the Thief.
Roger wins for being the first to correctly identify both solutions, although he didn't explain the second solution I'm sure it was reasoned and not guessed.
Well done all. :bounce:

29 Nov 2004

Being a Dragon - he will not need a hovercraft! So could I have it instead!
And when will you be suitably recovered for the next one?

29 Nov 2004

I sort of missed the bit on stop questioning as soon as any one of you is proved to be either the agent or thief. i was just looking for the thief....never mind.
so is there going to be another one or is that it?
(note to self - don't read questions in the early hours of the morning, you will miss something)