Do diabetics swing?

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Peanut
type 2 here as well, and can guarantee we still have loads of fun :-)
If ya want any advice, my PM box is always open. And as for listening to doctors, it's probably the worse thing you can do :x

as a type 1 diabetic and a specialist practitioner in general practice specialising in chronic disease i refute this listen to those that kinow what they talk about and have experience of the disease dont listen to fable fiction pre concieved ideas but fact.
refute all you like, but the fact is, the general advice given to type 2 diabetics is so profoundly wrong it's bordering on criminal negligence. The dietary recommendations given from the UKDA and ADA is more likely to cause the complications then solve them. I take no medications, and rarely raise my bs above 5. easy to do with correct information, not easy if ya follow docs advice.
This may be the case for you, but it is not the case for all T2s.
All the medical folks I've been in contact with my diabetes have been professional, caring (in many cases more than I am about myself) and knowledgeable. There is no way I could survive without medication regardless of how much exercise I took or how much care I took with my diet.
It's one thing to advise experienced diabetics that there are ways to deal with it but it's totally irresponsible to advise a neophyte to ignore their doctor's/DSN's advice and self treat.
no and you won't. they might be proffesional and caring, it does not mean they know what they are talking about. i have spoken to diabetics all over the world and to a person, agree that the advice is wrong. i tested my blood sugars to obssesive levels, every 30 mins in some cases and i know for a fact, the standard diet is crap. if anybody wants advice on how to manage diabetes properly give me a shout, if you want to manage it the nhs way and lose legs and sight, and kidneys go for it. and i come from a background of a father in law who died through diabetes and a mother who is blind and one leg through diabetes, believe me i studied it.

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
sod em all
the standard medical advice is so wrong.
type 2 is genetic, you didn't cause it. fact
since govermental advice changed in the 70s to say low fat was good for you diabetes increased. fact
the complications from T2 diabetes comes from high blood sugars. fact
high blood sugars are caused by eating sugars and starchy carbohydrates . fact
what do docs reccomend you eat. sugars and starchy carbohydrates. fact
every single doctor should be force fed into an education, because what they are doing now is causing diabetics to lose life and limbs for no bloody good reason apart from their predetermined doctrine of fat is bad for you. I hate doctors to death, and all it takes is a modicom of scientific research and mathematical knowledge to know your average gp is thick as the proverbial porcine poop.

None of the above "facts" have been made to me by any of my DSNs or the diabetic centre in Manchester. Their dietary advice is basically all things in moderation. They do NOT advise to eat predominantly carbohydrates and starchy foods, neither do they insist on a low fat diet. In fact the other day I got a bollocking for telling them I had half a pint of Tropicana orange juice in the morning.
I'm afraid your dislike for GPs and the like have damaged any objectivity you may have had.
None of the 'advice' you have given is safe for a newly diagnosed patient and given that this is exactly what the OP is I recommend that you recuse yourself from this thread as your advice could be dangerous.
PS Type 2 can be genetic and hereditary, it isn't in all cases. Also I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has been told that they "caused" their own diabetes. Having said that, obesity can be and is a common causative factor.

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Peanut
sod em all
the standard medical advice is so wrong.
type 2 is genetic, you didn't cause it. fact
since govermental advice changed in the 70s to say low fat was good for you diabetes increased. fact
the complications from T2 diabetes comes from high blood sugars. fact
high blood sugars are caused by eating sugars and starchy carbohydrates . fact
what do docs reccomend you eat. sugars and starchy carbohydrates. fact
every single doctor should be force fed into an education, because what they are doing now is causing diabetics to lose life and limbs for no bloody good reason apart from their predetermined doctrine of fat is bad for you. I hate doctors to death, and all it takes is a modicom of scientific research and mathematical knowledge to know your average gp is thick as the proverbial porcine poop.

None of the above "facts" have been made to me by any of my DSNs or the diabetic centre in Manchester. Their dietary advice is basically all things in moderation. They do NOT advise to eat predominantly carbohydrates and starchy foods, neither do they insist on a low fat diet. In fact the other day I got a bollocking for telling them I had half a pint of Tropicana orange juice in the morning.
I'm afraid your dislike for GPs and the like have damaged any objectivity you may have had.
None of the 'advice' you have given is safe for a newly diagnosed patient and given that this is exactly what the OP is I recommend that you recuse yourself from this thread as your advice could be dangerous.
PS Type 2 can be genetic and hereditary, it isn't in all cases. Also I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has been told that they "caused" their own diabetes. Having said that, obesity can be and is a common causative factor.
you are wrong peanut, simple is not a cause, it' an effect, same as a lot of problems with diabetes, it's effects, not causes, simple thing to do is keep ya blood sugars low and most do sort themselves out.

22 Nov 2008

just remember, doctors issue statins, statins are scientifically proven to be completely worthless and cause more problems than they solve. hence docs are twits (with an a )

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
you are wrong peanut, simple is not a cause, it' an effect, same as a lot of problems with diabetes, it's effects, not causes, simple thing to do is keep ya blood sugars low and most do sort themselves out.

I said "causative factor" quite deliberately. On it's own yes you are right, but in conjunction with other factors is quite another matter.

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
just remember, doctors issue statins, statins are scientifically proven to be completely worthless and cause more problems than they solve. hence docs are twits (with an a )

Hmmm, amazing how my cholesterol went from 9.6 to 4.2 within a month of starting on simvastatin (with no other changes in my diet). It has stayed lower ever since too.
What a coincidence then eh?

22 Nov 2008

yea, your cholesterol will come down with it, that's what the drug is designed to do. what it doesn't mention or address is why your cholesterol was high in the first place. it was high due to fluctuating blood sugars, cholesterol came along to help cure it and doctors came along to dump cholesterol. hence and this is a fact, check with the prescription advice, there is no difference in mortality rates between those who took statins and those that took placebos. as i say again, anybody that listens to docs is on a downward slope to oblivion

22 Nov 2008

I read this thread with great interest, not because I have diabetes (at least not that I know of) but because I know someone who had it for many years from an early age (8) but eventually died of it. It was the most serious kind of diabetes, but he did live a good life.
I had tried to post a ful reply just now but I guess it was to long a response and I was logged out when I went to post it. So when I sent it, it went into the ether.
So to cut a long story short, my recommendation to anyone is let your close friends know. Might sound drastic, but they might one day be able to save your life if they know what to do if you go hypo.
As Jaq-kryps suggests, find your own way of dealing with it, no one case is the same. And GP's who generalise on conditions and cannot write a prescription that is in code that only bletchly park can decipher, are not to be taken seriously. Believe me, every time I go to a GP they say it's in the mind, son, it's all in the mind.
Something to do with money I say!!

22 Nov 2008

what my point was, a properly controlled type 2 diabetic, and thats all of them, need not go onto medication or injections, it's the doctors advice that force them on to it because their advice is so wrong. you do not tell somebody with a peanut allergy to eat peanuts, because it will kill them, along the same lines you don't tell t2 diabetics, which have a carbohydrate intolerance to eat carbohydrates.

22 Nov 2008

So it is their (i.e Doctors) a total lack of prefessionalism and understanding of the wider picture that irks you then?
I find they know what's wrong, but don't want to admit it for fear of repercussions or the bill!

22 Nov 2008

Quote by niceguysdoexist
Guys ...I'm going into this with a completely open mind and am grateful for everyone's opinion. I will work with the professionals and be led by them as I learn about my body , it's condition and its reaction,to the various treatments.
When I know what I am dealing with then I I may consider alternative therapy's and see if tey wqork for me .
I am sure we are all individuals and different treatments work for different folks .
So ...my next question is ...how do you test your own sugar levels and do I have to buy the kit , if so , how much ?
I am sure some one recommended ebay??
:shock:

welcome to the finger pricking club easy and almost pain free but you have to know wot ur bloods doing a doctor or nurse or even a clinic should sort you out your kit or kits you will need and should be free of charge words stick in my mind is balance pm me if you need anything good luck xx

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
yea, your cholesterol will come down with it, that's what the drug is designed to do. what it doesn't mention or address is why your cholesterol was high in the first place. it was high due to fluctuating blood sugars, cholesterol came along to help cure it and doctors came along to dump cholesterol. hence and this is a fact, check with the prescription advice, there is no difference in mortality rates between those who took statins and those that took placebos. as i say again, anybody that listens to docs is on a downward slope to oblivion

If the drug is doing what it is supposed to do then it can hardly be described as "completely worthless" now can it?
Now I as I think I've made clear in past postings I have very little confidence in or liking for GPs, but specialists are different. I never do anything or take anything or buy anything without doing lots of research, it's the geek in me. And yes I've seen all the information you are referring to, and frankly I think most of it is dangerous and tree-hugging fringe theories.
Having said that I admit I am generalising so my negativity to what you are saying does not mean that I think you are right or whether I think you are wrong. You do whatever you feel is right to for you.
What I do think is incredibly dangerous and frankly, quite a stupid thing, is for an unqualified layperson to tell someone, anyone, to ignore their doctor's advice, bearing in mind that most diabetics aren't treated for it by their GPs. Especially when that person is about to be diagnosed with something like diabetes.
There are places for discussions like this, but to masquerade as advice to nervous and unknowing patients is well and truly over the line.

22 Nov 2008

Just out of curiosity Jaq-kryps, have you got any medical training or qualifications that prove you know the correct way to treat diabetes or is this just what you have learnt through life experiences dunno

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
type 2 here as well, and can guarantee we still have loads of fun :-)
If ya want any advice, my PM box is always open. And as for listening to doctors, it's probably the worse thing you can do :x

as a type 1 diabetic and a specialist practitioner in general practice specialising in chronic disease i refute this listen to those that kinow what they talk about and have experience of the disease dont listen to fable fiction pre concieved ideas but fact.
refute all you like, but the fact is, the general advice given to type 2 diabetics is so profoundly wrong it's bordering on criminal negligence. The dietary recommendations given from the UKDA and ADA is more likely to cause the complications then solve them. I take no medications, and rarely raise my bs above 5. easy to do with correct information, not easy if ya follow docs advice.
very poor advice to give a newly diagnosed diabetic! and also slanderous! All diabetics wether diet controlled, orally controlled or insulin controlled should adhere to a healthy diet but those with more sever diabetes will need medication to both remain alive and free from complications. If your blood sugar does not rise above 5 question the diagnosis! Most medical practitioners give exerlent advice. Some of us actually live with the disease and know both the scientific and the psycological problems. Listening to fable and peoples unqulaified comment cost lives!

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
sod em all
the standard medical advice is so wrong.
type 2 is genetic, you didn't cause it. fact
since govermental advice changed in the 70s to say low fat was good for you diabetes increased. fact
the complications from T2 diabetes comes from high blood sugars. fact
high blood sugars are caused by eating sugars and starchy carbohydrates . fact
what do docs reccomend you eat. sugars and starchy carbohydrates. fact
every single doctor should be force fed into an education, because what they are doing now is causing diabetics to lose life and limbs for no bloody good reason apart from their predetermined doctrine of fat is bad for you. I hate doctors to death, and all it takes is a modicom of scientific research and mathematical knowledge to know your average gp is thick as the proverbial porcine poop.

22 Nov 2008

i have never heard so much irresponsible bollox talked in here. Your opinions are biased and come frome an awful attitude.
If you cant get on with your doctors nurses and other professionals who go on regular training and up dates then you have a problem - they cant all be wrong!. The venum is not helpful to a new diabetic and what do u hope to achieve?
Thank God your not one of my patients.
Most health professionals are only to happy to share their knowledge and experience with a receptive patient and work form a basic possition of wanting to help people. If my car breaks down i go to a mechanic and follow his experience knowledge and advice i dont ask the kid down the road. similarly if my body breaks i ask a medic. I have every right to disregard their advice and do my own thing but then when i have a heart attack from not taking my medication i can blaim only myself.
please listen to your doctors ask several professionals advice read around the subject, listen to advice of those with diabetes but be sure they give unbiased advice with your best intentions at heart not just passing on a grudge. But only when u have the full picture can u make an informed decision.

22 Nov 2008

If i took my car to the garage, i would expect them to fix it as well, or pass it on to somebody who could. Not pretend they know what they're talking about and bodge it. I'm sorry, but the track record is not good for diabetics. You cannot argue with the fact that the prospects for diabetics in this country is very poor. So why is that?

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Dawnie
Just out of curiosity Jaq-kryps, have you got any medical training or qualifications that prove you know the correct way to treat diabetes or is this just what you have learnt through life experiences

Can you put me out of my misery please and answer this question.

22 Nov 2008

no, just the ability to read and absorb information. O and the ability to test myself. So I know for an absolute fact that the dietary advice given as standard is wrong. Plus just read Dr Bernstein, I might not have the "knowledge" but he certainly does.

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
If i took my car to the garage, i would expect them to fix it as well, or pass it on to somebody who could. Not pretend they know what they're talking about and bodge it. I'm sorry, but the track record is not good for diabetics. You cannot argue with the fact that the prospects for diabetics in this country is very poor. So why is that?

The prospect for diabetics in this country is proportional to how well they manage their diabetes based on common-sense eating and behaviour.
You keeping your sugar at 5 without treatment means two things, 1) you are eating correctly and 2) you are borderline diabetic at most.
For the rest of us (and in my case my pancreas has given up the ghost totally and does not produce any insulin) trying to survive purely with diet and exercise is most likely a death sentence.

Written by a doctor I see...
...now what was it you were saying about doctors?

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
no, just the ability to read and absorb information. O and the ability to test myself. So I know for an absolute fact that the dietary advice given as standard is wrong. Plus just read Dr Bernstein, I might not have the "knowledge" but he certainly does.

I thought that would be the case rolleyes

May I politely suggest that you don't advise others not to listen to their doctors!
It is fine to suggest books they can read to help them understand what is going on with their BS but bear in mind none of us are the same, some will need medication where as others can manage with diet.
I strongly suggest everyone listens to doctors and specialst and then finds the best way to deal with their BS.

22 Nov 2008

just check out these forums then.

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
no, just the ability to read and absorb information. O and the ability to test myself. So I know for an absolute fact that the dietary advice given as standard is wrong. Plus just read Dr Bernstein, I might not have the "knowledge" but he certainly does.

So in other words you are totally unqualified and ill-equipped to offer advice to anyone other than yourself and your own particular circumstances?
It's nice to know should I go in that direction that reading a single book is all it takes to give objective and qualified advice to diabetics the world over and ignore 'time served' professionals. rolleyes

It's no wonder GPs hate aspects of the internet which has opened up the world of self treatment and made their jobs so many times more difficult.
Sorry but I'd rather take the advice of a qualified doctor or DSN over that of someone who is unqualified, embittered and prone to believing fringe theorists.

22 Nov 2008

Just to add fuel to the fire. 'Doctor' in the U.S isn't as heavily protected a title as it is here. So, I would be wary of quoting any U.S Dr as fact anyway. rolleyes

22 Nov 2008

Quote by Jaq-kryps
just check out these forums then.

Nope, I don't know who has posted anything on that forum and if any of the people are trained or sufferers or just someone taking the piss.
Sorry but I will still be sticking to qualified doctors and specialist nurses for my advice and so should most other people :thumbup:

22 Nov 2008

At the very least you have to take what your told by the doctor as a baseline to work from..
The medication prescribed may not be totally to your liking and the routine may not suit you quite right but its a good base from which to start surely dunno

22 Nov 2008

anyway, to answer the original question. we're going out swinging lol

22 Nov 2008

hahahahahahhahahahhaha laughable

23 Nov 2008

Well I did want a frank and expansive collection of views and thats exactly what I got lol

My cholesterol has been drifting up over the past few years ...about 5.7 last time I had it measured about 18 months ago, but that wasn't a fasted result.I had no idea that cholesterol levels were in way associated with diabetes.
The doctor mentioned 4 drugs I would probably have to take . They sort of flew over my head at the time but I think 1) Metaformin(or whatever it was called ) 2) some form of statin 3 ) Aspirin, and I have no recall of the 4th dunno

Am a pretty slim fella but have loved my sugar(maybe too much) by way of 2(and a bit smile

) in my tea and one or two chocolate bars a day ..instant energy and sometimes lunch substitute in a high presure commercial world. Maybe thats brought me to where I am today in which case let it serve as a warning to others.
Look out for me on Tuesday folks when I know what battles I got to fight. :sparring: :sparring:

23 Nov 2008

Quote by niceguysdoexist
Well I did want a frank and expansive collection of views and thats exactly what I got
My cholesterol has been drifting up over the past few years ...about 5.7 last time I had it measured about 18 months ago, but that wasn't a fasted result.I had no idea that cholesterol levels were in way associated with diabetes.
The doctor mentioned 4 drugs I would probably have to take . They sort of flew over my head at the time but I think 1) Metaformin(or whatever it was called ) 2) some form of statin 3 ) Aspirin, and I have no recall of the 4th
Am a pretty slim fella but have loved my sugar(maybe too much) by way of 2(and a bit ) in my tea and one or two chocolate bars a day ..instant energy and sometimes lunch substitute in a high presure commercial world. Maybe thats brought me to where I am today in which case let it serve as a warning to others.
Look out for me on Tuesday folks when I know what battles I got to fight. :sparring: :sparring:

Aha, we have the first (and usual) urban legend of diabetes. Eating sugar, whether it is in chocolate or not, is most definitely NOT a cause of diabetes, especially if the patient is not obese.
The most likely reason you are possibly diabetic is due to what's called "insulin resistance". This is the most common reason for Type 2 diabetes wherein your pancreas is producing normal amounts of insulin yet for whatever reason your body is unable to utilise that insulin. Insulin is the hormone that allows cells to absorb energy (in the form of glucose - all food ends up as glucose eventually but carbohydrates get there quicker). If the body is unable, in varying degrees, to absorb this glucose it ends up floating round unused in your blood stream which is why you end up with high blood sugar levels. This free floating glucose attaches itself to things like nerves and ends up having a detrimental effect on them.
The other reason for being a T2 is that the pancreas produces a less than ideal amount of insulin which has a similar effect on the body. Ultimately the reason for the diabetes is unimportant as the treatment is just the same.
Whilst the above is a very simplified and as such maybe not 100% accurate description of the mechanics of diabetes it's a good starting point and gets the point across... well hopefully anyway redface

The most common reason for either of the above is hereditary genetics. Most likely you have a family member from within the last two generations above you who had diabetes.