Having been here for over 3 years now (though most of the first year being spent lurking in the chatroom) I have seen (albeit only in post form) opinions and popular beliefs on a number of subjects turn, change, progress and even in some cases regress.
One such subject which has moved and swayed with time is swinging itself, or at least the essence of swinging… views about sex.
I recall the troubled times, when people feared the worst and Swinging Heaven would become nothing more than a sex site. Yet over a year on, I actually find myself occasionally shaking my head, rolling my eyes and sarcastically thinking “god forbid anyone is actually meeting people and having sex” (however, the way the chatroom has evolved is a different matter and may be a subject for a different thread).
On the forum I have seen increasingly more frequent comments implying a number of views which were rarely seen on this site in years gone by or if they were seen, they certainly received a different response, for example (the wording has been changed in the follow comments to protect the innocent):
- You should only fuck me if you think I am good enough to be your real life partner.
- Sex for the pure simple pleasure of sex with someone I like is not enough.
- Sex without commitment makes me feel used.
I appreciate swinging means different things to different people, but surely it has to have one common denominator and surely that is something to do with recreational sex.
I also appreciate the softer approach which is often adopted in some threads to avoid upsetting the poster… that is… sometimes people don’t always say what they think when it is going to be directed at an individual.
So, maybe a general discussion thread rather than replying to a person posting to express their own situation will bring out some more interesting points to debate without fear of it becoming personal.
Do you think more people are expecting something beyond recreational sex?
Have we become so open to sex in all forms that sex with strings is becoming an acceptable expectation?
Do you worry or have any concerns when you see certain types of posts regarding expectations?
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Expectations for bedtime?
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Sex God
Quote by PoloLady
I appreciate swinging means different things to different people, but surely it has to have one common denominator and surely that is something to do with recreational sex.
Define sex
Sure you can come up with all sorts of opinions on that one, hell the Americans couldn't even agree on it.
Why do we have to attempt to analise everything. If it feels good and works for you then do it.
Is attempting to define swinging or what constitutes swinging as anal as all the attempts at trying to define sexuality with labels??
Maybe it's just me (maybe its not) but I'm really fed up with the worlds need to define, analise and then, just when you thought it couldn't get more confused, re define and re analyse.
It is what it is to you.
Sorry PL xx
Hey, I resemble that remark!
Im sure i recognise a few things in there PL. I am by nature an analitical person(not anal) and want to understand the meaning of each and every word, cos we all know words have two meanings.
Im not a hard person either, in fact im way too sensitive(contrary to any impression you may have formed due to seeing me in the chatroom a few days ago) so my views on many things here arnt necessarily going to dovetail with the majority of swingers.
I guess in in the smallest minority here too.....single predominantly gay female.
As i have discovered from several posts ive made, its all too easy to speak ones mind and get shot at, so this often deters me from adding my views at times.
Im sure i recognise a few things in there PL. I am by nature an analitical person(not anal) and want to understand the meaning of each and every word, cos we all know words have two meanings.
Im not a hard person either, in fact im way too sensitive(contrary to any impression you may have formed due to seeing me in the chatroom a few days ago) so my views on many things here arnt necessarily going to dovetail with the majority of swingers.
I guess in in the smallest minority here too.....single predominantly gay female.
As i have discovered from several posts ive made, its all too easy to speak ones mind and get shot at, so this often deters me from adding my views at times.
Quote by PoloLady
Do you worry or have any concerns when you see certain types of posts regarding expectations?
When i read posts about expectations I have concerns about all those endangered bunnies.
Our expectation of swinging partners would be that they've had a wash, are reasonably competent at sex and know that we're already in a relationship but like to shag other people and that's what they'll get from us. Swinging isn't dating and does involve sex.
Sex God
Quote by northwest-cpl
Swinging isn't dating and does involve sex.
*This is in no way a dig*
It is many things to many people and can you define sex or just give your own definition of it???
It's not really down to you, me or any number of posters on here who seem to go with the "my way (whatever that way is) is the right way"
Each to their own and all that.
Quote by the_Laird
Why do we have to attempt to analise everything...
Is attempting to define swinging or what constitutes swinging as anal as all the attempts at trying to define sexuality with labels??
Maybe it's just me (maybe its not) but I'm really fed up with the worlds need to define, analise and then, just when you thought it couldn't get more cofused, re diefine and re analyse...
There actually is no suggestion to analyse and define anything - just to discuss and debate changes in expressed expectations.
You say "If it feels good and works for you then do it." - but you have seen where it goes when someone expects more than recreational sex and I have certainly seen the aftermath that is the result of people pretending it feels good.
Perhaps a sterner word of caution or an open debate about mismatched expectations would have prevented a few "I can't believe I was so stupid" or "he's a bastard" posts (which seemed to pop up elsewhere more frequently.
What is wrong with openly talking about recreational sex and expectations? Why does that mean it is an analysis? It is called discussion.
Surely a frank and open discussion can only provide yet another resource for those who are considering whether it is for them or not?
PS – as for defining sex … I’ll show you my definition later
Sex God
Quote by PoloLady
There actually is no suggestion to analyse and define anything - just to discuss and debate changes in expressed expectations.
Two replys in and we have our first "definition" i.e.
Swinging isn't dating and does involve sex
Quote by PoloLady
You say "If it feels good and works for you then do it." - but you have seen where it goes when someone expects more than recreational sex and I have certainly seen the aftermath that is the result of people pretending it feels good.
I have. But define recreational sex? For some it's a quick shag found perusing the ad section for others it's intimacy with people they have gotten to know as friends. Where do you draw the line of recreational sex?
Marriage proposals are slightly different
Quote by PoloLady
Perhaps a sterner word of caution or an open debate about mismatched expectations would have prevented a few "I can't believe I was so stupid" or "he's a bastard" posts (which seemed to pop up elsewhere more frequently.
Now you really dont believe that do you?? All the step-by-step beginners guide to swinging for dummies type debates / discussion in the world wont stop people getting themselves into situations that could have been avoided.
Where's the individuality and maturity in being able to swing without a checklist?
Quote by PoloLady
What is wrong with openly talking about recreational sex and expectations? Why does that mean it is an analysis? It is called discussion.
Wooosh........there goes the sarcasm bit as well
Quote by PoloLady
Surely a frank and open discussion can only provide yet another resource for those who are considering whether it is for them or not?
Indeed, and I reckon my views and contribution are as valid.
Quote by PoloLady
PS – as for defining sex … I’ll show you my definition later :wink:
If you're a good girl :wink:
Quote by the_Laird
...stuff...
So what really if someone has written and opinion that looks like a definition
The worst that can happen if people do that is the thread actually proves your point - it means different things to different people.
It may even show that it means completely different things from one person’s view to another and show the dangers of assuming people all think roughly the same.
That can't be a bad thing… can it?
Sex God
Quote by PoloLady
...stuff...
....more stuff in reply.....
being proved right is never a bad thing
Sex God
These days there's certainly an increasing amount of LMU posts, ads, and people's expressions of what they want, on this site which would seem to fit better on a dating site than a swinging site.
Sex God
Just to echo what Lairdy said, I agree that it is for the individual to decide what "swinging" means to that person, whether it's those that are looking for a warm body to jump, or those that become life-long friends that share a bed from time to time. It's both ends of the same continuum. People just decide which little bit they're most comfortable in/with.
TBH I feel this is a separate debate as (in my experience) this is usually a result of lies. Lies about being single, lying to the "partner" about how deep they feel the relationship is, lying to themselves about what the relationship actually is, it all comes back to lies.
Oh and Polo and Lairdy......... get a room FFS.
:P
Quote by PoloLady
Perhaps a sterner word of caution or an open debate about mismatched expectations would have prevented a few "I can't believe I was so stupid" or "he's a bastard" posts (which seemed to pop up elsewhere more frequently.
TBH I feel this is a separate debate as (in my experience) this is usually a result of lies. Lies about being single, lying to the "partner" about how deep they feel the relationship is, lying to themselves about what the relationship actually is, it all comes back to lies.
Oh and Polo and Lairdy......... get a room FFS.
:P I come in here because I love the banter, I love the topics. I rarely chat in the chatroom, but my hubby does now and then. Our profile is very forthright and we don't hide anything. Our expectation is swinging and sex. I don't need to define sex as that is what we do. We have met some great people and have swung with them and will continue to do so.
I'm not scared of replying to threads in fear of upsetting people, if I don't like what I see I'll reply to that effect likewise if I agree I will do the same.
Everyone has their own reasons for being in here and that doesn't bother me one iota and the weekend Jay and I have just had makes it all worth while!
I'm not scared of replying to threads in fear of upsetting people, if I don't like what I see I'll reply to that effect likewise if I agree I will do the same.
Everyone has their own reasons for being in here and that doesn't bother me one iota and the weekend Jay and I have just had makes it all worth while!
Sex God
Over the years I have at times shared sexual pleasure with people I actually knew little of as people, I just know they gave of themselves to me and I to them during those encounters.
Some I have met again, some not, some I still have contact with, some of that contact has even been about things other than sex!
Either way if it was a mutual joy to do at the time and always remembered with a smile then that's all to the good or nothing more can stem from it afterwards accordingly.
Some I have met again, some not, some I still have contact with, some of that contact has even been about things other than sex!
Either way if it was a mutual joy to do at the time and always remembered with a smile then that's all to the good or nothing more can stem from it afterwards accordingly.
I've only been here 6 months and I've seen a full range of "requirements" and/or "prerequisites" in adds. I'm not bothered by this as this is only to be expected as everyones take on what swinging is will vary as will their particular requirements.
I don't see any requirement to put restrictions on this or are we angling for some sort of Swinging Standard that you must pass before you are allowed in here?
The shift you have detected I would attribute to larger membership = more people who are more on the fringe for want of a better phrase. I'm a good example of this btw I came here to find out more about the lifestyle and the people who follow it and see if I fitted in somehow.
I'm not a swinger, I've never met anyone in person from this site and I don't profess to be one. I have found here confirmation that people here are open minded on the whole and have broader experience relating to sex than me. This for me has been a good thing to find out as I was getting very worried that my disatisfaction with my sex life to date was something aberrant about myself.
I have recently met someone (not via here) who also has this refreshing openness and for the first time have someone I can talk openly about sex with, they are much better at this than I am I have to confess.
I have also updated my profile to I'm here socially as I haven't felt the time is right yet to broach the subject of my membership here ... I need to know this person a bit better before we go there but at some point fairly soon go there we shall!
I agree with the open debate idea wholeheartedly the more opinions you get the more informed you will be (hopefully and usually in the Cafe you are) but I hope in the end there is still room for all of us.
Oh and swinging to me is consenting sex with or without the strings as mutually agreed by both/all parties. Dating is more the process of forming/building a relationship where this may lead to sex as part of the relationship although it can also cover many other scenarios.
Online communities are by their nature organic and will evolve and ebb and flow based on their composition ... the open debate would just be another part of this process I guess...
Am I more cautious about what I post err yes over time I have become more careful but I still try and post what I think and accept that not everyone will agree
Damn I've rambled again
prehaps I need a PL lesson in focused thread answering !!
:)
I don't see any requirement to put restrictions on this or are we angling for some sort of Swinging Standard that you must pass before you are allowed in here?
The shift you have detected I would attribute to larger membership = more people who are more on the fringe for want of a better phrase. I'm a good example of this btw I came here to find out more about the lifestyle and the people who follow it and see if I fitted in somehow.
I'm not a swinger, I've never met anyone in person from this site and I don't profess to be one. I have found here confirmation that people here are open minded on the whole and have broader experience relating to sex than me. This for me has been a good thing to find out as I was getting very worried that my disatisfaction with my sex life to date was something aberrant about myself.
I have recently met someone (not via here) who also has this refreshing openness and for the first time have someone I can talk openly about sex with, they are much better at this than I am I have to confess.
I have also updated my profile to I'm here socially as I haven't felt the time is right yet to broach the subject of my membership here ... I need to know this person a bit better before we go there but at some point fairly soon go there we shall!
I agree with the open debate idea wholeheartedly the more opinions you get the more informed you will be (hopefully and usually in the Cafe you are) but I hope in the end there is still room for all of us.
Oh and swinging to me is consenting sex with or without the strings as mutually agreed by both/all parties. Dating is more the process of forming/building a relationship where this may lead to sex as part of the relationship although it can also cover many other scenarios.
Online communities are by their nature organic and will evolve and ebb and flow based on their composition ... the open debate would just be another part of this process I guess...
Am I more cautious about what I post err yes over time I have become more careful but I still try and post what I think and accept that not everyone will agree
Damn I've rambled again
prehaps I need a PL lesson in focused thread answering !! :)
Sex God
Quote by Angel Chat
I personally feel that my expectations of swinging change on at least a monthly basis. To me, there are so many aspects to it that I can pick and choose which particular aspects I feel most comfortable with at any given time.
When I first arrived (3 years ago) I wanted a) to explore my bi side and b) experiment with casual sex (yep, I was one of the "quick shag brigade") and 3somes and moresomes. Not long after that I ended up in a relationship (from here, but not a swinging relationship as far as I'm concerned - although I did play with a couple of girlies, in his absence but with his permission)
I also ended up doing one of those "Omg I can't believe I was so stupid" posts, and then went on to do some more exploring of 3 and moresomes. I could go on, but I'm sure anyone reading this is bored by now.
Basically, for me, my views, fantasies, expectations, desires and general ideas of swinging have changed over the last 3 years. I expect that they'll continue to change though, because what I wanted last week isn't particularly what I'm looking for this week, but whatever I've ever been looking for from swinging, (for the most part) I've been able to find it. That's a pretty good thing as far as I'm concerned
I am not stalking you hun but i similarly agree. I have been on this and other sites for 4 years but only active for the last 2 of them. Now at the moment i am in a single fem mood, which means i would prefer if the opertunity came up (blush) to play with single fems, Now that doesnt mean i wont play with cpls or moresomes just at the moment i am not in that state of mind.
To be honest i do tend to switch, sometimes i will look for cpls sometimes for fems.....sometimes i will be opertunistic.
But i think thats what makes the scene so good is that there is no hard and fast rules of what people always look for. This week i took a few steps to ask people would they be intresed playing, i was very shy in asking so.
Enough of my ramberling
Mike
Quote by PoloLady
Yet over a year on, I actually find myself occasionally shaking my head, rolling my eyes and sarcastically thinking “god forbid anyone is actually meeting people and having sex”
I know I'm a mere lurker, but I totally agree with that snippet.
It's almost as though there's a clique - But in this case, of people who struggle to even show interest in having sex with themselves, and who use the forum to put on a pretence to lure unsuspecting newbies into being ridiculed, judged, baited and finally indoctrinated into the ways of the not meeting anyone for sex.
But then I like conspiracy theories...
Quote by Shambolic
Yet over a year on, I actually find myself occasionally shaking my head, rolling my eyes and sarcastically thinking “god forbid anyone is actually meeting people and having sex”
I know I'm a mere lurker, but I totally agree with that snippet.
It's almost as though there's a clique - But in this case, of people who struggle to even show interest in having sex with themselves, and who use the forum to put on a pretence to lure unsuspecting newbies into being ridiculed, judged, baited and finally indoctrinated into the ways of the not meeting anyone for sex.
But then I like conspiracy theories...
Hello Shambolic - I disagree with this and actually find it quite offensive that you should think people would lure posters to post to be ridiculed and judged!.. Sorry maybe I'm wrong in pulling you on this one but I think you are very wrong to put it.
Also on looking at your past posts you are partial to making comments on "cliques" so maybe this is another?
Quote by flower411
Yet over a year on, I actually find myself occasionally shaking my head, rolling my eyes and sarcastically thinking “god forbid anyone is actually meeting people and having sex”
I know I'm a mere lurker, but I totally agree with that snippet.
It's almost as though there's a clique - But in this case, of people who struggle to even show interest in having sex with themselves, and who use the forum to put on a pretence to lure unsuspecting newbies into being ridiculed, judged, baited and finally indoctrinated into the ways of the not meeting anyone for sex.
But then I like conspiracy theories...
Blimey ... you confusing the hell outa me !!
How would you go about luring "unsuspecting newbies" into being ridiculed...and then not meeting for sex ?????
:eeek: I know!
if anything I've been meeting for more sex! More recently than in the past there seems to be a compassionate concern for the poster who expresses their need to feel something more from another person with whom they have started or are about to start a sexual relationship.
Seeing people express their feeling of being ‘used’ by their realisation that a sexual relationship (and I use the word ‘relationship’ as defined by the social sciences) is not leading to a more formal committed and exclusive relationship, tends to make me feel most uncomfortable.
I understand the comments of “each to their own”, “it’s their choice” and the attitude of “well it’s their problem”, but it is not just this person’s ‘own’ problem once a wheelbarrow loaded with guilt is dumped on some other person’s doorstep.
It is not just one person – no matter how fancy you dress it up in clichés. There has to be more than one person as this person is having sex with someone else. Yet we rarely see any concern for the unnamed person who was innocently going about their business (or rather pastime) having what they thought was mutually enjoyed sexual experiences… only to have it all turned into something sour and unsavoury by hearing 3 little words…”you used me”.
May be I feel uncomfortable because I have been on the end of one of those late night phone calls. A phone call from a person I thought was meeting to share sexual pleasure and create fond memories of shameless lust, only to find out that what I thought was pleasurable now turns out to have caused emotional pain. A phone call that turns everything around and everything you thought was fun now turns out to be tainted with sorrow and guilt. Regardless of how open you have been, when another person pours their heart out at you and you know it is through the sexual encounters which you shared they are now in this emotional state … you cannot help but feel some form of guilt or ownership that you were part of the cause.
I can only speak for myself, but I do not have sex with people so sometime down the line I can hear them cry and my inability to return the feelings to be blamed for their distressed state.
It is almost a ‘no win’ situation… cut all of the links and you have abandoned them… continue and you prolong the pain. The one thing they want is the one thing you cannot give and never once implied you could.
I have felt what leaving “each to their own” can feel like and sadly seen far too many other people feel it’s effect too – and all in a place where it shouldn’t have been a problem.
“Surely there is room for everyone here” – yeah sure there is… but just don’t come crying when someone you arranged to meet for recreational sex actually just wants to have recreational sex…. Sorry but that is my honest opinion.
I know you cannot always help what feeling you develop over a period of time… best intentions and all that. But some people know what will happen before it does. Some have even said they pretty much know it will be that way before they even start. People tend to know from their other life experiences whether they are prone to rapidly growing feelings of attachment, jealousy, possessiveness – be honest with yourself.
If you can’t enjoy sex without feeling used, without needing to feel a commitment, without accepting this person may just be also having sex with someone else or without some other form of emotional hang-up – then may be you should at least face the facts - This is a swinging site… recreational sex happens here. Don’t be so f*cking surprised when someone actually wants recreational sex without being told how they are f*cking you up.
Seeing people express their feeling of being ‘used’ by their realisation that a sexual relationship (and I use the word ‘relationship’ as defined by the social sciences) is not leading to a more formal committed and exclusive relationship, tends to make me feel most uncomfortable.
I understand the comments of “each to their own”, “it’s their choice” and the attitude of “well it’s their problem”, but it is not just this person’s ‘own’ problem once a wheelbarrow loaded with guilt is dumped on some other person’s doorstep.
It is not just one person – no matter how fancy you dress it up in clichés. There has to be more than one person as this person is having sex with someone else. Yet we rarely see any concern for the unnamed person who was innocently going about their business (or rather pastime) having what they thought was mutually enjoyed sexual experiences… only to have it all turned into something sour and unsavoury by hearing 3 little words…”you used me”.
May be I feel uncomfortable because I have been on the end of one of those late night phone calls. A phone call from a person I thought was meeting to share sexual pleasure and create fond memories of shameless lust, only to find out that what I thought was pleasurable now turns out to have caused emotional pain. A phone call that turns everything around and everything you thought was fun now turns out to be tainted with sorrow and guilt. Regardless of how open you have been, when another person pours their heart out at you and you know it is through the sexual encounters which you shared they are now in this emotional state … you cannot help but feel some form of guilt or ownership that you were part of the cause.
I can only speak for myself, but I do not have sex with people so sometime down the line I can hear them cry and my inability to return the feelings to be blamed for their distressed state.
It is almost a ‘no win’ situation… cut all of the links and you have abandoned them… continue and you prolong the pain. The one thing they want is the one thing you cannot give and never once implied you could.
I have felt what leaving “each to their own” can feel like and sadly seen far too many other people feel it’s effect too – and all in a place where it shouldn’t have been a problem.
“Surely there is room for everyone here” – yeah sure there is… but just don’t come crying when someone you arranged to meet for recreational sex actually just wants to have recreational sex…. Sorry but that is my honest opinion.
I know you cannot always help what feeling you develop over a period of time… best intentions and all that. But some people know what will happen before it does. Some have even said they pretty much know it will be that way before they even start. People tend to know from their other life experiences whether they are prone to rapidly growing feelings of attachment, jealousy, possessiveness – be honest with yourself.
If you can’t enjoy sex without feeling used, without needing to feel a commitment, without accepting this person may just be also having sex with someone else or without some other form of emotional hang-up – then may be you should at least face the facts - This is a swinging site… recreational sex happens here. Don’t be so f*cking surprised when someone actually wants recreational sex without being told how they are f*cking you up.
By 'eck Polo lass, yer givin it sum right wellie this morning!
Some very focussed thinking there as usual. A well presented case.
But if you were to meet someone who you know is dabbling in the swinging world, but is a bit green, and who is irresistibly gorgeous, would you still do them? Then deal with the aftermath? After all, one would also have to deal with oneself as well.
Surely doing someone like that at a public venue reduces a direct assault on your private life, as they don't have enough details to stalk you, or easily conduct some follow up process of bitterness etc. Consequently one could pick and choose when to apply this type of involvement.
Also how do the inexperienced learn about the finer practices of swinging without having to go through such situations? That is the training, as it were.
I think its just like life. There is always an intake of people learning on the job, acquiring skills as they go. Some become polished performers, others struggle as they come to terms with various life problems.
Also there are various expectations which most people have acquired either through, upbringing, experience or education, which leads them to believe thay can covet their new partner and attain 'rights', having had sex. I think a lot of this is confusing even in the conventional/vanilla world.
Its a lot to dismantle if they don't have the nsa streak in the first place.
I think it will always go with the territory. If the pangs of guilt and bitterness strike at one, then one is not so accomplished as one thinks, and has to accept that more time and experience will have to occur before considering oneself master of one's own emotions.
Some very focussed thinking there as usual. A well presented case.
But if you were to meet someone who you know is dabbling in the swinging world, but is a bit green, and who is irresistibly gorgeous, would you still do them? Then deal with the aftermath? After all, one would also have to deal with oneself as well.
Surely doing someone like that at a public venue reduces a direct assault on your private life, as they don't have enough details to stalk you, or easily conduct some follow up process of bitterness etc. Consequently one could pick and choose when to apply this type of involvement.
Also how do the inexperienced learn about the finer practices of swinging without having to go through such situations? That is the training, as it were.
I think its just like life. There is always an intake of people learning on the job, acquiring skills as they go. Some become polished performers, others struggle as they come to terms with various life problems.
Also there are various expectations which most people have acquired either through, upbringing, experience or education, which leads them to believe thay can covet their new partner and attain 'rights', having had sex. I think a lot of this is confusing even in the conventional/vanilla world.
Its a lot to dismantle if they don't have the nsa streak in the first place.
I think it will always go with the territory. If the pangs of guilt and bitterness strike at one, then one is not so accomplished as one thinks, and has to accept that more time and experience will have to occur before considering oneself master of one's own emotions.
Sex God
Excellent post Polo - deserves to be very widely read here. :thumbup:
