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Have you all seen the news?!?!?!?

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mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by Tania

what is there to understand about someone who straps a bomb to their chest and blows themselves up taking innocent people with them......the only thing i understand is this is pure evil......terrorism is not the solution to fight your battles...

What you/we need to understand Dave is why someone would feel the need to do the things they do. Without understanding how are we to stop it?
Stormy
Stormy
Don't waste your breath with Da69ve, he doesn't understand other people in SH, how do you expect him to understand the very complicated reasons an innocent child turns into a terrorist! rolleyes
Dambuster...thank you..........Tania.......as i've clearly stated you are on another planet,i will lose no sleep over your remarks....i am not alone on what i think about you!
Freckledbird
Sex God
Quote by dambuster
What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?

I don't.
I don't know enough about how the security services work to make comment on them.
So I don't make comments on how effective/how poor they are. I leave it to the people who do know and trust that they will make life as safe as possible for my family and I.
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by Freckledbird

What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?

I don't.
I don't know enough about how the security services work to make comment on them.
So I don't make comments on how effective/how poor they are. I leave it to the people who do know and trust that they will make life as safe as possible for my family and I.
I think too many people watch too many spy films....just let the security services get on with their jobs i say..... wink
Unknown User
Quote by dambuster

Stormy
Don't waste your breath with Da69ve, he doesn't understand other people in SH, how do you expect him to understand the very complicated reasons an innocent child turns into a terrorist! rolleyes

Tania, I personally think those words of yours are far too personal and derogatory, but I'll leave da68ve to answer them, in the hope he'll actually treat your comment with the contempt I believe it deserves and not do so.
But with them, you've raised a question in my mind that I now ask of you, and others.
Do you "understand the very complicated reasons an innocent child turns into" the sort of person that is willing to put their life in very real danger of death ?
or willing to take the lives of people based on the information given to them by others ?
in the full and clear knowledge that possibility exists that the lives of some innocent people may also be taken in the process ?
so that you, me and countless others can go about their daily business with as much freedom as possible ?
To others that appear to be pouring scorn on the intelligence services, police - of what ever level, nomenclature or status - and the public actions taken recently, I have a couple of very simple questions.
Did someone fly a number of commercial aircraft into building in the US ?
Did someone explode IEDs in London ?
Straight Yes or No.
What exactly is the price you are willing to pay - in short term loss of liberty and freedom, and in the very unfortunate loss of innocent life - in order to prevent such atrocities ?
What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?
:thumbup:
My answer to the last point/question is ....... dunno
All I do know is the effects of doing nothing are far more complicated than people care to think about.
Whatever it truly is that makes a person decide to kill themselves in the name of whatever (and truly believe they are righteous for taking innocent lives) did not happen over night. The preparation of distorting that persons mind didn't happen over a couple of weeks or months. The extremist groups have been preparing their people with their version of proper gander (I say 'their version' as the media/political groups/governments in various other parts of the world will have their own versions) from birth in many cases. They accept what they are told from their peers, elders, leaders, society and form their values and beliefs - just as we do. It may be the most evil thing we can think of - to strap a bomb to yourself and walk into a busy market place... killing mothers, children, people going about their daily business... because it is our societies values and our beliefs which we judge against.
Those who think talking is the way forward... have you ever tried to convince a Vicar that God does not exist?
You would more likely have greater success at convincing you next-door neighbour that the world is in fact flat than convince a person that their religion, values and beliefs (which they have held so passionately for their whole lives) is a pile of pants.
Firelizard
Sex God
Quote by dambuster

Stormy
Don't waste your breath with Da69ve, he doesn't understand other people in SH, how do you expect him to understand the very complicated reasons an innocent child turns into a terrorist! rolleyes

Tania, I personally think those words of yours are far too personal and derogatory, but I'll leave da68ve to answer them, in the hope he'll actually treat your comment with the contempt I believe it deserves and not do so.
But with them, you've raised a question in my mind that I now ask of you, and others.
Do you "understand the very complicated reasons an innocent child turns into" the sort of person that is willing to put their life in very real danger of death ?
or willing to take the lives of people based on the information given to them by others ?
in the full and clear knowledge that possibility exists that the lives of some innocent people may also be taken in the process ?
so that you, me and countless others can go about their daily business with as much freedom as possible ?
No I don't understand why ANYONE would or would want to hurt another LIFE for whatever reason.
To others that appear to be pouring scorn on the intelligence services, police - of what ever level, nomenclature or status - and the public actions taken recently, I have a couple of very simple questions.
Did someone fly a number of commercial aircraft into building in the US ?
Did someone explode IEDs in London ?
Straight Yes or No.
What exactly is the price you are willing to pay - in short term loss of liberty and freedom, and in the very unfortunate loss of innocent life - in order to prevent such atrocities ?
I don't want to pay a price, I just want the killing to stop! ALL of it whether it's forces, police or terrorists or the ordinary man in the street. IT IS NOT A RIGHT TO TAKE ANOTHER LIFE!
What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?
I can think of no realistic peaceful alternatives and just think it's such a shame that we are on this planet for an average of say 70 years each and we have to waste the experience with all the crap people put each other through
We can't do without the forces, we can't do without the police or any of the other services similar but I think it's a shame that they have to both be killed and kill!
Love a very sad Fire xxxx sad
Calista
Sex God
Quote by Scandal
For me, there is no distinction between the consequences of individual suicide bombers and those who fly planes carpet bombing everything below them.

:thumbup: unfortunately it's not the fault of those named but of the political parties!
Since when, in the history of the world, did "retaliation" ever lead to a peaceful resolution? All it leads to is an escalation of violence!!
Cx
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by Scandal
For me, there is no distinction between the consequences of individual suicide bombers and those who fly planes carpet bombing everything below them.

For me neither.
How come some condone war on the Middle East, and yet condemn individual (relatively speaking) terrorists? We do a whole lot more damage than they do, when you think about it, and principally to innocent people.
And for the record DB, yes, Twin Towers was blown up - but how come the UK had to immediately jump onto the terrorist hunt with Bush when at the time they hadn't targeted UK?
What happened once we did?
How many other peaceful countries follow Bush into the Middle East?
Why do we have to provoke these terrorists?
I don't knock the security system - just the fact that we have to fight the US' wars, and therefore put ourselves at a lot more risk than we need to. The world is a sick enough place without putting ourselves on the firing line.
Tania
Orgasminator
Quote by Scandal
What exactly is the price you are willing to pay - in short term loss of liberty and freedom, and in the very unfortunate loss of innocent life - in order to prevent such atrocities ?
What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?

Stop giving people the motivation.
People can not be ground into the dirt, piling oppression on top of oppression always has the same consequences.
Change UK foriegn policy.
Educate our children to the similarities to the rest of the worlds population not the marginal differences.
Ditch the nations education of a small minded xenophobic view of the world for a more balanced enlightened one.
For me, there is no distinction between the consequences of individual suicide bombers and those who fly planes carpet bombing everything below them.
:thumbup:
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda

For me, there is no distinction between the consequences of individual suicide bombers and those who fly planes carpet bombing everything below them.

For me too.
How come some condone war on the Middle East, and yet condemn individual (relatively speaking) terrorists? We do a whole lot more damage than they do, when you think about it, and principally to innocent people.
And for the record DB, yes, Twin Towers was blown up - but how come the UK had to immediately jump onto the terrorist hunt with Bush when at the time they hadn't targeted UK?What happened once we did?
How many other peaceful countries follow Bush into the Middle East?
Why do we have to provoke these terrorists?
I don't knock the security system - just the fact that we have to fight the US' wars, and therefore put ourselves at a lot more risk than we need to. The world is a sick enough place without putting ourselves in the firing line.
maybe......because there was British Citizens in the Towers at the time......just like there was alot of other nationalities in the Towers at the time along with US Citizens!
for the record....67 British citizens died in that attack of the world trade centre....more than on 7/ from Ninety other countries were also murdered that day....
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by da69ve
[
maybe......because there was British Citizens in the Towers at the time......just like there was alot of other nationalities in the Towers at the time along with US Citizens!
for the record....67 British citizens died in that attack of the world trade centre....more than on 7/7.

So therefore we are justified in going over to bomb the living daylights out of innocent Afghanis, whilst 'searching for Bin Laden'?
How many other countries went in search of revenge, because some of theIr citizens were murdered in the towers?
TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT - AND NEVER WILL
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda

So we just stand back and take it......very easy for us to say that....but it doesn't work that way......and it never will.
fabio
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda
And for the record DB, yes, Twin Towers was blown up - but how come the UK had to immediately jump onto the terrorist hunt with Bush when at the time they hadn't targeted UK?
What happened once we did?
as an aside to these two do you know the number of U.K citizens killed in the 9/11 attacks..... 67... to put that into context the most people killed in any single IRA attack...29 (the omagh bombing) that may be some of the reason as to why...

How many other peaceful countries follow Bush into the Middle East?
Why do we have to provoke these terrorists?

you are right...... 2nd time gulf war round......in the original gulf war it was under the auspice of the united nations everyone did...
Australians were targeted in the bail bombing because they had the audacity to help out in east timor again under the auspice of the united nations (26 U.K citizens died in that attack..) america foreign policy has rightly been critized in the past... but the only thing i can see this doing is making america more insular... and it is insular enough as it is......
.

sean
Unknown User
Quote by Scandal
What exactly is the price you are willing to pay - in short term loss of liberty and freedom, and in the very unfortunate loss of innocent life - in order to prevent such atrocities ?
What realistic alternatives do you have to the way things are done now ?

Stop giving people the motivation.
People can not be ground into the dirt, piling oppression on top of oppression always has the same consequences.
Change UK foriegn policy.
Educate our children to the similarities to the rest of the worlds population not the marginal differences.
Ditch the nations education of a small minded xenophobic view of the world for a more balanced enlightened one.

So when we change our policy... how many extremists will ditch the distorted interpretation of the Koran... where it is the ultimate act of faith to die if your death brings about the death of non-believers?
It is far too easy to be idealistic and say - "yes, there is the solution - doesn’t it sound perfect. All we need to do is opt for peace and education and the world will harmonise".
But we don't live in a perfect world.
May be we should keep out of something’s - as long as you don't mind the odd act of genocide happening else where - such as repeats of the 100 days of slaughter, Rwanda, 1994.
But it is easy to ignore the mass graves when it has no impact on your daily life. You still eat, sleep, work, have heat, drive your car and have the medical resources to meet the vast majority of your needs.
The path to utopia is easily written but harder to walk.
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by da69ve
So we just stand back and take it.......

That would be more honourable and dignified than going in all guns blazing, yes. And a whole lot safer for our nation, in the long run.
If we fight back, we are as bad as the terrorists, if not worse - 67 killed in the Twin Towers? How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?
How many children in this country have been bombed this year?
How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?
Unknown User
Quote by BerryBelinda

So we just stand back and take it.......

That would be more honourable and dignified than going in all guns blazing, yes. And a whole lot safer for our nation, in the long run.
If we fight back, we are as bad as the terrorists, if not worse - 67 killed in the Twin Towers?How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?
Not as many as Saddam had already killed in the name of power!
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda

So we just stand back and take it.......

That would be more honourable and dignified than going in all guns blazing, yes. And a whole lot safer for our nation, in the long run.
If we fight back, we are as bad as the terrorists, if not worse - 67 killed in the Twin Towers? How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?
How many children in this country have been bombed this year?
How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?
well i came up with a figure about the twin towers.....now why don't you do the same about "the innocent people who have been killed by the British Armed Forces this year"....
our children are out their fighting.....remember that......why don't you start praising our soldiers rather than slagging them off!
no one says anything when a group of MP's are murdered by a bloodthirsty crowd....but when one person is shot for running a check point everyone is up in arms....i don't get it!
Unknown User
Quote by BerryBelinda
How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?

We could take that stance - I woulder what would have happened if we as a nation had taken that stance in 1939?
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by da69ve
How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?

Not as many as Saddam had already killed in the name of power!
So we are back to square one. It's okay for us to kill, but not okay for others....
If we are killing in the name of peace, how is that any better than in the name of power? How is it going to make the terrorists stop trying to attack us? Killing is killing - war is war. We should leave well alone and let others fight Bush's battles. Our country has enough problems without making more, and pissing a whole lot of people off in the process.
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by PoloLady

How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?

We could take that stance - I woulder what would have happened if we as a nation had taken that stance in 1939?
we would all be speaking German.....and every single Jew would have been wiped off the face of the earth!......how easily some people forget!
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by PoloLady

How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?

We could take that stance - I woulder what would have happened if we as a nation had taken that stance in 1939?
WW2 is another story. One we should have learned from - that war is ugly.
The question was directed specifically at Da69ve - who has two sons. I wondered how much of a warmonger he would be if his kids were forced to go to fight tomorrow.
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda
How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?

Not as many as Saddam had already killed in the name of power!
So we are back to square one. It's okay for us to kill, but not okay for others....
If we are killing in the name of peace, how is that any better than in the name of power? How is it going to make the terrorists stop trying to attack us? Killing is killing - war is war. We should leave well alone and let others fight Bush's battles. Our country has enough problems without making more, and pissing a whole lot of people off in the process.
you refer eveything in the "we"........so remember that someone as a son or daughter fighting.....
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by da69ve
every single Jew would have been wiped off the face of the earth!......how easily some people forget!

I never forget Dave.
But how is fighting more wars making things any better?
Unknown User
Quote by BerryBelinda

I am struggling to see how you could write that.
These people didn't sign up just to go and kick some ass in a sandy country. They signed up to protect you - so you too could be safe and sound and very comfortable.
Are you trying to imply we should have no armed forces?
After all if they are no valid reasons for us to be involved in any war - why do we need them?
Would you feel comfortable if the Army was scrapped?
Jags
Sex God
I'm still watching and consider the word 'warmonger' abusive in its perjorative form.
Dictionary
war·mon·ger (wôr'mŭng'gər, -mŏng'-) pronunciation
n.
One who advocates or attempts to stir up war.
warmongering war'mon'ger·ing adj. & n.

I very much doubt that Dave is one of those given the definition.
rolleyes
Unknown User
Quote by da69ve
every single Jew would have been wiped off the face of the earth!......how easily some people forget!

Yes - but they were not killing Jews on our doorstep - so that is OK - we should have stayed out of that one.
mr__powers1
Sex God
Quote by BerryBelinda

How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?

We could take that stance - I woulder what would have happened if we as a nation had taken that stance in 1939?
WW2 is another story. One we should have learned from - that war is ugly.
The question was directed specifically at Da69ve - who has two sons. I wondered how much of a warmonger he would be if his kids were forced to go to fight tomorrow.
i'm not a warmonger........but i won't take an attack on me lying down....and assume the enemy wants to talk now.....in all honesty if my son's were called up i don't know how i would react......but i'll tell you this.....i'd be pissed that they would be going to fight for ungrateful people like yourself.
Firelizard
Sex God
Quote by da69ve

Let me ask you a question, If the bombing had been successful and massive civilian casualties had occurred. Would you if you had the power, order the retaliatory bombing of a city believed to be the base of the bombers, knowing that you would also cause massive civilian casualties as well?
Would You be angry enough to take the lives of the innocent, just to get revenge for our dead?
In Edit, dont take this personally it’s not a nasty post aimed at anyone.

yes...if i had the power i would take the nessessary action needed.....it would beyond talking now.....it would not be revenge for the dead but justice for them.......terrorists are very good at hiding amongst innocent civilians......just goes to show how high they regard life......these people cannot be reasoned with.......they want evrything and they want it there way....
Then How Dave are you any different from the Terrorists themselves? dunno
If the lives of innocent people including women and children have no meaning to you, why do you expect them to have meaning to a Terrorist? :dunno:
I understand Anger and I understand fear, I understand revenge and justice, but I don’t understand how eviscerating a 4year girl with a 1000 lb bomb equals either justice or revenge. :dunno:
If bombing a bus full of civilians in London is Terrorism, What is dropping a bomb on an Ambulance in Lebanon? :dunno:
From their perspective, It looks like “We want everything and we want it our 
Storm
fabio
Sex God
berrybelinda
whenever the subject turns round to war and soldiers this is my bog standard answer..
"i support the troops wholeheartedly......but doesn't mean i have to support the people who send them there!!!"
it might be something worth thinking about before this conversations starts sailing very close to the territory of "godwins"
Jon
Orgasminator
Quote by BerryBelinda

So we just stand back and take it.......

That would be more honourable and dignified than going in all guns blazing, yes. And a whole lot safer for our nation, in the long run.
If we fight back, we are as bad as the terrorists, if not worse - 67 killed in the Twin Towers? How many innocent people have the British Armed Forces killed this year alone, I wonder, in the name of peace?
How many children in this country have been bombed this year?
How would you feel if the UK Government decided to make us all sign up to fight? Would you be happy for your children to be given guns and sent to fight - in the name of peace - - because some terrorists dared to attack our green and pleasant lands?
This roundabout you list as your location - is a fucking magic one? Because your statements are pure fucking comedy!
I am an ex Royal Marine, my brothers (3) were also Royal Marines, and one went on to the foriegn legion serving in the 2em REP in Lebanon, Chad and Djouboti (sp) amongst other places. My son also served in the armed forces. Most of the male members of my family have served in the armed forces for several generations (like the last 200 years).
I (and my brothers) served in Ulster and the Falklands, as well as UN duties in Cyprus, Former Rhodesia and several west African states amongst others. My Son served in the Balkans.
Some of my very best friends died so people like you can live the life you choose, and I'm sure the remainder of the armed forces will have nothing but good words to say about people with attitudes like yours, especially while their oppos are being killed amd maimed about them, while serving with inadequate support and equipment..
Sit back and take it - yeah fucking right, let any terrorist organisation from PETA to Al Qada do as they wish - how many dead and maimed do you want the population to suffer before we do anything about it?
What a load of arse.
I just wish I could say what I REALY think about your posts. mad
BerryBelinda
Warming the Bed
Quote by Jags
I'm still watching and consider the word 'warmonger' abusive in its perjorative form.
rolleyes

I apologise for my 'definition'. I mean that he is pro-war, where I am anti.
Quote by PoloLady
I am struggling to see how you could write that.
These people didn't sign up just to go and kick some ass in a sandy country. They signed up to protect you - so you too could be safe and sound and very comfortable.
Are you trying to imply we should have no armed forces?
After all if they are no valid reasons for us to be involved in any war - why do we need them?
Would you feel comfortable if the Army was scrapped?

No of course I would not feel happy if the Army was scrapped, but I don't see why I should take Dave's advice and praise the soldiers, when I don't agree with this particular war they are involved in. I don't believe in war fullstop. There must be another way - but as long as the world is armed, and power-hungry men are in possession of these arms, war will continue, and there is little I can do about it, unfortunately.
If the soldiers refused to fight in the Middle East, we wouldn't be able to get involved, and some other country would have to follow Bush around in his search for oil and power.
I care not if I am the only one here who thinks this Middle East war is wrong. I have my opinions, others have theirs.
All I want is peace, and a clear conscience. How can I be proud to be British when our Army is out there fighting power-hungry wars, and when we have more than a whole lot of other people in the world.? Can we not just take a back seat and let others fight?