David Beiber has been convicted of killing PC Broadhurst and is to serve a FULL life sentence.
Is this the start of more punitive sentences for murderers all round, or is the fact that he killed a policeman coming into the equation?
I am glad he's going to spend the rest of his days behind bars, but he does seem to have been treated differently to other murderers.
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Life Means Life?
I thought that life was 25 years?
I been told that when people are convicted and given life they wait to hear back from the courts what is the minimum sentence they have to serve.
Perhaps i have got this all mixed up?
Why should he get more for killing a police man?
We are all still humans at the end of the day!
I been told that when people are convicted and given life they wait to hear back from the courts what is the minimum sentence they have to serve.
Perhaps i have got this all mixed up?
Why should he get more for killing a police man?
We are all still humans at the end of the day!
Quote by Happy Cats
Where there is no doubt as to someones guilt - eg Hindley West etc they should be hung, why should we fund their continued existence?
That I do feel strongly about, when there is no doubt at all, why should we the tax payer fund criminals to stay behind bars with no council tax or income tax to pay, 3 square meals a day and playing ping pong or watching telly. This guy should be killed very painfully and slowly and allowed to suffer the way that policeman suffered before that brutal bastard murdered him. Hes got the easy life now as far as Im concerned.
All this about realising the error of his ways and feeling sorry for what hes done is total crap, he should never be forgiven for what hes done.
Sex God
The unusual thing about this case is that if Bieber had been found not guilty, he would have immediately been deported to the USA, where he is wanted on two charges of homicide. If found guilty of either of those, he would have faced the death penalty over there. So you could regard him as having got off lightly here...
Mike.
Mike.
Quote by Happy Cats
Where there is no doubt as to someones guilt - eg Hindley West etc they should be hung, why should we fund their continued existence?
I have to admit I agree with that.
And all this nonsense they spew about human rights :bs: when they themselves have shown a total disregard of others
LET THEM SWING
Sex God
Quote by Libra-Love
Where there is no doubt as to someones guilt - eg Hindley West etc they should be hung, why should we fund their continued existence?
I have to admit I agree with that.
And all this nonsense they spew about human rights :bs: when they themselves have shown a total disregard of others
LET THEM SWING
Totally in agreement with this.
A member of Jon's family was murdered by her husband four years ago and her body has never been found.
Reckon anyone in the family would be happy to pull the rope around his neck :x
Tracy-Jayne
On the deeper point of a death penalty, it is an option, but sorry I don't trust the government with it, or the courts. Now I not saying anything is corrupt, just that every now and then, even with the checks and balances we get it wrong.
Ok so the without any doubt case, there never is one. Always the possibility that something was missed. In jail yes we pay for them to exist, and yes they don't deserve it, but that is part of life in a society I suppose.
Also personally I think it is harder to spend the rest of your life being watched, having your free will corrupted, and never being trusted or free. That is worse than just being killed. So for those who want punishment it is there, for the odd mistakes at least we can let them out, downside is we do have to pay for them.
Ok so the without any doubt case, there never is one. Always the possibility that something was missed. In jail yes we pay for them to exist, and yes they don't deserve it, but that is part of life in a society I suppose.
Also personally I think it is harder to spend the rest of your life being watched, having your free will corrupted, and never being trusted or free. That is worse than just being killed. So for those who want punishment it is there, for the odd mistakes at least we can let them out, downside is we do have to pay for them.
Sex God
Quote by tallnhairy
Also personally I think it is harder to spend the rest of your life being watched, having your free will corrupted, and never being trusted or free. That is worse than just being killed. So for those who want punishment it is there, for the odd mistakes at least we can let them out, downside is we do have to pay for them.
Punishment? What when you've got your own room, three meals a day, free board and lodgings, all amenities, including sports facilities, further education and endless supplies of hobbies at your finger tips, never having to worry if you've got enough money to pay your bills etc?
Sorry, I don't buy it. It may be acceptable to society as a whole, but to those of us on the other end of a murderer's crime, it's not now and never will be enough punishment :cry:
They may have lost their liberty up to a point, but once they get used to the idea, and most of them do eventually, they live reasonably content lives
Whereas, we now have three motherless young children all aged under 10 years living with foster parents because their mother was killled by their father
Tracy-Jayne
Quote by RedHot
Also personally I think it is harder to spend the rest of your life being watched, having your free will corrupted, and never being trusted or free. That is worse than just being killed. So for those who want punishment it is there, for the odd mistakes at least we can let them out, downside is we do have to pay for them.
Punishment? What when you've got your own room, three meals a day, free board and lodgings, all amenities, including sports facilities, further education and endless supplies of hobbies at your finger tips, never having to worry if you've got enough money to pay your bills etc?
Sorry, I don't buy it. It may be acceptable to society as a whole, but to those of us on the other end of a murderer's crime, it's not now and never will be enough punishment :cry:
They may have lost their liberty up to a point, but once they get used to the idea, and most of them do eventually, they live reasonably content lives
Whereas, we now have three motherless young children all aged under 10 years living with foster parents because their mother was killled by their father
Tracy-Jayne
Exactly the point I raised earlier, and what makes it worse? We are paying for it through taxes!
Sex God
Quote by manofmuchfun
Sorry, I don't buy it. It may be acceptable to society as a whole, but to those of us on the other end of a murderer's crime, it's not now and never will be enough punishment :cry:
and I am also on the recieving end as an ex partner of a murderess, I see and hear the pain everytime she writes , but I have a new life, that too hurts her , never mind the comforts its the insanity of it that will drive her mad !
Tough! is my opinion to all murderers. The old saying "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" springs to mind . . .
Murderer's will always have far more victims that the one they actually killed. If you are the friend/lover/neighbour or whatever of a murderer, your perception of their crime will not be the same of those of family/friends of the person who was murdered.
Not gonna pursue this further. My opinions are my own and if they differ from someone else's who may be hurt by them, I don't want to cause un necessary pain.
Victim's families and friends are all in the same boat, but depending on their assocciation with the murderer, the perception will be different.
T-J
Sex God
This is far too close to the bone for me right now as two weeks ago my cousin was killed. I am usually compassionate but I have a great mistrust of the justice system. I question whether prison works in terms of correcting behaviour or treating that which might have caused the crime. I have conflicting thoughts and emotions about this as it is too soon after my cousin's death to say how I really think and feel. Greif can be an all consuming emotion which affects rational thought.
Part of me says a crime is a crime and one of the worst things you can do is to disrespect another person with violence or by harming them mentally. Killing is one of the worst things someone could do to another next to torture. The darker side of me agrees with the "eye for an eye" philosophy.
In contrast to that I believe in forgiveness and that the person will be judged by a higher being, whoever or what ever that is, and karma will come and bite them on the bum someday for what they have done. So I might as well concentrate my energy on making the world a place full of love not hate so my children have something to look forward to when they have their own children.
It is difficult to say what should and shouldn't be done but corruption and deceit are two things I will never be able to understand or tollerate.
Part of me says a crime is a crime and one of the worst things you can do is to disrespect another person with violence or by harming them mentally. Killing is one of the worst things someone could do to another next to torture. The darker side of me agrees with the "eye for an eye" philosophy.
In contrast to that I believe in forgiveness and that the person will be judged by a higher being, whoever or what ever that is, and karma will come and bite them on the bum someday for what they have done. So I might as well concentrate my energy on making the world a place full of love not hate so my children have something to look forward to when they have their own children.
It is difficult to say what should and shouldn't be done but corruption and deceit are two things I will never be able to understand or tollerate.
Quote by pinkbubble(mr&mrs)
Exactly the point I raised earlier, and what makes it worse? We are paying for it through taxes!
Personally, I'm proud that my taxes are being used to punish criminals and administer justice.
I'm not in favour of the death penalty as sufficent punishment. We're all going to die; it's the one certainty in life. Once someone is dead, they pass beyond our reach, and we cannot punish them anymore. Maybe, depending on your belief-system, God punishes them forever. Or maybe God forgives them and they go to Heaven. Or both. Or maybe nothing happens whatsoever. But either way, we can't punish them anymore. So I think it's imperative that we keep serious criminals in this world for as long as possible, so we can punish them as much as possible.
Imprisonment is the removal of one of the most fundamental human rights of all: liberty. We are, after all, meant to be proud to be free men and women (a status which previous generations fought and died to bestow upon us). I think it says very worrying things about our society if we don't regard removal of freedom as a very serious punishment.
P.S. Not having a go at pinkbubble; I know lots of other people who feel the same way as you and I'm sure all of us had this same discussion many times before, with our friends and families.
Quote by roger743
Imprisonment is the removal of one of the most fundamental human rights of all: liberty. We are, after all, meant to be proud to be free men and women (a status which previous generations fought and died to bestow upon us). I think it says very worrying things about our society if we don't regard removal of freedom as a very serious punishment.
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I feel that we overlook the most important and fundamental aspects all too often...to me, honesty and trust, being trustworthy and trusted, being responsible for our own actions and being given freedom and choices all add up to making us proud and worthy individuals, giving us a sense of self worth...once we have been mistrusted, it damages our self esteem, once we have been deiceitful, we have to live with that knowledge; others being dishonest and untrustworthy around us, erodes our values and innocence.... its the small things which make big impact that get overlooked....they can and do make massive impacts on all our lives.
this is the age of dna so if you have been found guilty of murder you derserve to be hung but we live in a country that for some reason this scum should live in our overcrowded prisons at our expense and then let out on the quiet as little as 8 yrs later .hang em i say and so do the majority but then when did any government listen to the people that elected them :x :x
:x :x Quote by RedHot
Punishment? What when you've got your own room, three meals a day, free board and lodgings, all amenities, including sports facilities, further education and endless supplies of hobbies at your finger tips, never having to worry if you've got enough money to pay your bills etc?
And knowing that this is your existence for decades to come. For me, death would be a welcome release.
Years ago when we had the death penalty in this country, there were many cases where it was considered there was no doubt whatsoever. And some of these people have been proved to be innocent as a result of the cases being reinvestigated, new evidence, or new technology.
If Derek Bentley had been tried in the present day, his mental state would probably have been fully recognised & he would only have served a short sentence, yet at the time the government were hell bent on showing that they were standing up for law & order, so he went to the gallows. It was considered to be a "cast iron" case at the time, but not now.
Quote by pleasure40070
this is the age of dna so if you have been found guilty of murder you derserve to be hung but we live in a country that for some reason this scum should live in our overcrowded prisons at our expense and then let out on the quiet as little as 8 yrs later .hang em i say and so do the majority but then when did any government listen to the people that elected them
Are you quite sure it's the majority..............? any polls / surveys to back that up?
I certainly don't want ot live in a society where state killings are permisable.
Would we then not sink to their levels?
Also your point about DNA - is this evidence as concrete as we are all led to believe - it is a relativly new sceince, and as is for all new sceinces mistakes do and will happen.
Sex God
i'm a bit shocked at the suggestion that the state should take up murder as an option to save taxpayers a few quid? seems we would be lowering ourselves to the same base human instincts we condemn there for the worst possible reasons?
murder's either wrong absolutely, in which case it's wrong for society to kill too, or it is not always absolutely wrong, in which case you're justifying some kinds of murder, and saying some murders are less murderous than others? you can't have it both ways.
life sentences are based on an initial recommendation from the judge, depending on severity and mitigating circumstances, which is then reviewed by the Home Sec who sets the tariff. the tariff will state a minimum period before parole can even be considered. once the tariff's been served, it's up to the parole board to pass the convict fit for parole. there's no automatic right of release, and life can mean life even with a low tariff if the parole board judge release to be unsafe. in this case it was such an unneccessary, cold blooded murder, that life probably should mean life. not all murders are that clear cut.
there was a case in leeds a few years back, where a woman snapped after years of systematic abuse from her partner, involving and sexual torture with broken bottles and electrodes. every time she tried to leave he made her family's life hell, tracked her down, and she went back with the fear of god in her. eventually when trying to escape to go to her new lover, in desperation she killed him. i'm sure the life sentence she got has been a living hell for her. what must it be like living inside her head?
and i'd like to assure people claiming that jails are a cushie number that Cat A prisons are not nice places to be. we're not talking open prisons. we're talking dangerous, violent men, armed robbers, rapists, killers and paedophiles for company 24/7 for 15 years plus. hardly a holiday. remember, anyone in jail has effectively lost their life and family too, and has to live with that and the knowledge of the suffering they caused for years to come. and would you really want to put the murderers family through anymore than they too suffer already? they've committed no crime, but would have similiar consequences to those of the victim's family to bear.
neil x x x ;)
murder's either wrong absolutely, in which case it's wrong for society to kill too, or it is not always absolutely wrong, in which case you're justifying some kinds of murder, and saying some murders are less murderous than others? you can't have it both ways.
life sentences are based on an initial recommendation from the judge, depending on severity and mitigating circumstances, which is then reviewed by the Home Sec who sets the tariff. the tariff will state a minimum period before parole can even be considered. once the tariff's been served, it's up to the parole board to pass the convict fit for parole. there's no automatic right of release, and life can mean life even with a low tariff if the parole board judge release to be unsafe. in this case it was such an unneccessary, cold blooded murder, that life probably should mean life. not all murders are that clear cut.
there was a case in leeds a few years back, where a woman snapped after years of systematic abuse from her partner, involving and sexual torture with broken bottles and electrodes. every time she tried to leave he made her family's life hell, tracked her down, and she went back with the fear of god in her. eventually when trying to escape to go to her new lover, in desperation she killed him. i'm sure the life sentence she got has been a living hell for her. what must it be like living inside her head?
and i'd like to assure people claiming that jails are a cushie number that Cat A prisons are not nice places to be. we're not talking open prisons. we're talking dangerous, violent men, armed robbers, rapists, killers and paedophiles for company 24/7 for 15 years plus. hardly a holiday. remember, anyone in jail has effectively lost their life and family too, and has to live with that and the knowledge of the suffering they caused for years to come. and would you really want to put the murderers family through anymore than they too suffer already? they've committed no crime, but would have similiar consequences to those of the victim's family to bear.
neil x x x ;)
yes i agree that all murders are not cold bloodied evil acts ie abbused woman killing there tomenter but in my previous post i was talking about child muderers and random killers etc sorry if that was not clear before .the question about poles about bringing hanging back i know there have been many over the yrs and they are in favour of bringing capitol punishment back but its of no relevence as it will never happen .having said that if someone u loved was murdered by someone for no reason and u could have them jailed for life or hung what would you choice ?????????.i'm sure this debate could go on and on for ages but its not a nice subject
Sex God
The victims sentence has always been death . No reccomendations , no statutes no time off for good behaviour . Perhaps we should compare the two sentences before deciding what is just.
yes i agree that all murders are not cold bloodied evil acts ie abbused woman killing there tomenter but in my previous post i was talking about child muderers and random killers etc sorry if that was not clear before
The problem then is if they are all convicted of the same crime why don't they get a similar punishment.
.the question about poles about bringing hanging back i know there have been many over the yrs and they are in favour of bringing capitol punishment back but its of no relevence as it will never happen .
I honestly don't remember seeing a poll in favour of capitol punishment. Not saying the majority aren't in favour of capitol punishment but i've never seen anything to really back that up
having said that if someone u loved was murdered by someone for no reason and u could have them jailed for life or hung what would you choice ?????????.
I agree when a loved one is involved it is very very easy to go down the eye for an eye line, and yep i would probably for for the hanging option because it is then a personal matter. But is society not about rising above mob / vigilanty action where decisions are based on a objective and unbiased debate?
i'm sure this debate could go on and on for ages but its not a nice subject
well we agree on one thing
The big argument agaist the Death Penalty for my is, is it an effect deterant? The answer has to be no - just look at countries who do practise the death penalty people,- Murder rates any lower than here? In a word no.
Sex God
In the countries where it is practised as a death penalty and not a life sentence involving a hundred appeals the answer is generally yes actually.
We often only make the comparison with the USA which of course doesnt have death penalty as a given .
As far as effectiveness goes I suppose that is the major issue if your view only takes in that modern ethos of criminal justice , and not the purely punitive aspects that old fashioned views hold. An old friend of mine once listened to myself and another fella having the debate about child murderers - what is worse a true life sentnce (ie prison til youre dead) or a death sentence . His view at the end of the chat was that neither was sufficient punishment and he put forward the view that what we should do is give them twenty years and tell them at the beginning of the sentence that after the twenty years were up we are going to hang them .
Of course effectively thats pretty much what the yanks do in many cases.
We often only make the comparison with the USA which of course doesnt have death penalty as a given .
As far as effectiveness goes I suppose that is the major issue if your view only takes in that modern ethos of criminal justice , and not the purely punitive aspects that old fashioned views hold. An old friend of mine once listened to myself and another fella having the debate about child murderers - what is worse a true life sentnce (ie prison til youre dead) or a death sentence . His view at the end of the chat was that neither was sufficient punishment and he put forward the view that what we should do is give them twenty years and tell them at the beginning of the sentence that after the twenty years were up we are going to hang them .
Of course effectively thats pretty much what the yanks do in many cases.
Adolf Hitler and his henchmen were responsible for millions losing their lives. Prison for the rest of his life would not have been justice. The fact that the rest of his life in prison was not pleasant would not have been justice. There are/were genuinely evil people for whom only death would be justice.
Sex God
Isn't it strange that the citizens of this Country can be given a referendum about a highly complex issue such as the Single Currency (euro) or Local Assemblies, but our leaders will not allow a referendum on capital punishment, fox hunting, leagalising brothels, leagalising drugs and many other topics. (For the record, if asked we would be against, against, for , against).
Even the "referendum party" only wanted to know if we should pull out of Europe, no mention of having referndums on any thing else.
Why can't we be more like Switzerland where the people have many referendums.
Wonder what would happen if one of the smaller political parties made their manifesto in the next election "we will give the people a referendum for all matters which affect their lifestyle" such as the items above. Their slogan could be "we don't ask you to trust us, we will trust you"
John & Shel
Even the "referendum party" only wanted to know if we should pull out of Europe, no mention of having referndums on any thing else.
Why can't we be more like Switzerland where the people have many referendums.
Wonder what would happen if one of the smaller political parties made their manifesto in the next election "we will give the people a referendum for all matters which affect their lifestyle" such as the items above. Their slogan could be "we don't ask you to trust us, we will trust you"
John & Shel
Sex God
having said that if someone u loved was murdered by someone for no reason and u could have them jailed for life or hung what would you choice ?????????
for the record . . .
my auntie was savagely beaten by 3 girls and left for dead, sustaining a fractured skull. she survived the attack after weeks in hospital, but 6 months later she died of a massive brain haemorrhage. as far as we're concerned the one caused the other, and she was to all intents and purposes murdered. the police and CPS say not. we've had nothing that could be described as justice beyond a short jail term for assault.
my cousin disappeared 4 years ago on her way to a new life with a partner in blackpool. there's been no trace of her since. her bank accounts haven't been touched, and no benefit claims etc. we know she's dead, and suspect she was probably murdered along the way. without a body we'll never know who or what happened to her. but if ever we do? i'd be happier knowing he'd rot in jail.
i agree that life should mean life without parole for the worst cases absolutely, but i still wouldn't want to see the death penalty under any circumstances. hate and vengeance aren't places i particularly want to visit, and a civilised society has to rise above those desires.
neil x x x ;)
