What is it that makes you uncomfortable about men working with children?
I personally don't have a problem with blokes working in childcare, I think it's just the case that there are fewer blokes drawn to the career that may make it seem a bit "odd" to some people.
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Male childminders
Hi Flower
Please dont take this personally but I have to say i'm rather sad reading your post, a report made by NCH the childrens charity and now called action for children show a decrease in men volunteering in the childrens sector, this has meant Beavers/cubs/scouts have been forced to close as well as schools being unable to provide male mentoring to male children and young adults.
Have a look at this link a summery of the report by the times
I may be wrong and this is only my opinion but I belive that part of the problem our sociaty has with young male adults including gangs, knife crime, the hoody culture and teenage pregnices are that there are very few men in the child and young adult socal area, this includes the usual clubs as mentioned above and the social worker careers,
as we know there are some poor parents out there and there are are young people who have trouble communicating with there parents, if they have somebody to talk to outside of there parents then maybe some of the above would be stopped, after all very few girls would talk openly about there initial puberty/sexual changes with a man so do we expect the boy to talk to a women and be open and honest, I dont think so because of the embaresent factor.
Anyway i think i'm starting to ramble a bit so I will sign off, but after alot of thinking and typing, I will also say a cracking post to start the debate.
Regards
Reacher
Please dont take this personally but I have to say i'm rather sad reading your post, a report made by NCH the childrens charity and now called action for children show a decrease in men volunteering in the childrens sector, this has meant Beavers/cubs/scouts have been forced to close as well as schools being unable to provide male mentoring to male children and young adults.
Have a look at this link a summery of the report by the times
I may be wrong and this is only my opinion but I belive that part of the problem our sociaty has with young male adults including gangs, knife crime, the hoody culture and teenage pregnices are that there are very few men in the child and young adult socal area, this includes the usual clubs as mentioned above and the social worker careers,
as we know there are some poor parents out there and there are are young people who have trouble communicating with there parents, if they have somebody to talk to outside of there parents then maybe some of the above would be stopped, after all very few girls would talk openly about there initial puberty/sexual changes with a man so do we expect the boy to talk to a women and be open and honest, I dont think so because of the embaresent factor.
Anyway i think i'm starting to ramble a bit so I will sign off, but after alot of thinking and typing, I will also say a cracking post to start the debate.
Regards
Reacher
Master of Sex
Quote by Reacher359
Hi Flower
Please dont take this personally but I have to say i'm rather sad reading your post, a report made by NCH the childrens charity and now called action for children show a decrease in men volunteering in the childrens sector, this has meant Beavers/cubs/scouts have been forced to close as well as schools being unable to provide male mentoring to male children and young adults.
Have a look at this link a summery of the report by the times
I may be wrong and this is only my opinion but I belive that part of the problem our sociaty has with young male adults including gangs, knife crime, the hoody culture and teenage pregnices are that there are very few men in the child and young adult socal area, this includes the usual clubs as mentioned above and the social worker careers,
as we know there are some poor parents out there and there are are young people who have trouble communicating with there parents, if they have somebody to talk to outside of there parents then maybe some of the above would be stopped, after all very few girls would talk openly about there initial puberty/sexual changes with a man so do we expect the boy to talk to a women and be open and honest, I dont think so because of the embaresent factor.
Anyway i think i'm starting to ramble a bit so I will sign off, but after alot of thinking and typing, I will also say a cracking post to start the debate.
Regards
Reacher
what a great post. repsect to you
Flower you are not the only one that feels that way.
My son who is 18 now said at 15 he wanted to work in a nursery, it was very much frowned upon by many. A lot of people asked why would a teenager want to work with young children.
I thought this would have been a good job for him as he has younger twins siblings and has always shown patience, caring, great nature towards and thought for younger children than himself. I think growing up to help care for them gave him the qualities needed.
But he was scared away from following that dream, on the back of how others would view him.
My son who is 18 now said at 15 he wanted to work in a nursery, it was very much frowned upon by many. A lot of people asked why would a teenager want to work with young children.
I thought this would have been a good job for him as he has younger twins siblings and has always shown patience, caring, great nature towards and thought for younger children than himself. I think growing up to help care for them gave him the qualities needed.
But he was scared away from following that dream, on the back of how others would view him.
I don't work with children but I work in the 'care' sector...
so this may be related.
I have come across many restrictions as to how and with whom male staff can work, particularly solo with some sections of my particular field. These restrictions are layed down on behalf of those whom may be cared for, but who may not be able to make or express particularly well informed preferences on thier own behalf. They also nearly always go against the male workers.
Where a female lone worker has restrictions on whom she may work with solo, it usually comes from direct and ingformed choice from those who she might work with. She will rarely find herself restricted in the same way as male workers as mentioned above.
Now then... I'm sure there are 'statistics' which can back up such stipulations, though it does leave this particular male worker feeling quite 'tarred', know what I mean?
Back on track with the 'childrens' sector though: Bleurgh!
lp
so this may be related.
I have come across many restrictions as to how and with whom male staff can work, particularly solo with some sections of my particular field. These restrictions are layed down on behalf of those whom may be cared for, but who may not be able to make or express particularly well informed preferences on thier own behalf. They also nearly always go against the male workers.
Where a female lone worker has restrictions on whom she may work with solo, it usually comes from direct and ingformed choice from those who she might work with. She will rarely find herself restricted in the same way as male workers as mentioned above.
Now then... I'm sure there are 'statistics' which can back up such stipulations, though it does leave this particular male worker feeling quite 'tarred', know what I mean?
Back on track with the 'childrens' sector though: Bleurgh!
lp
Sex God
I often visit nursery schools, ie under 5, and some of the nurseries do employ male child cares, I am sure all the same checks / training needs are made as female cares.
Is it vaguely possible that the lack of "activity" leaders such as Scout Masters, Beaver leaders etc stems from the now highly regulated arena of Children and Young People legislation 
I realise that the need for checks on candidates is paramount these days but is it stifling opportunity?
It's even more difficult these days for schools to arrange activity holidays (such as skiing) for the kids in their care following a few high profile accidents over the past few years. Teachers are frightened stiff of the implications so are unwilling to put their head above the parapet.
Shame though; the only way to get an activity holiday these days is to be a bad person and get sent off at public expense to mend the error or your ways!
I realise that the need for checks on candidates is paramount these days but is it stifling opportunity?
It's even more difficult these days for schools to arrange activity holidays (such as skiing) for the kids in their care following a few high profile accidents over the past few years. Teachers are frightened stiff of the implications so are unwilling to put their head above the parapet.
Shame though; the only way to get an activity holiday these days is to be a bad person and get sent off at public expense to mend the error or your ways!
Quote by __random_orbit__
Where a female lone worker has restrictions on whom she may work with solo, it usually comes from direct and informed choice from those who she might work with. She will rarely find herself restricted in the same way as male workers as mentioned above.
lp
:thumbup: Being a lone worker ( and female to boot honestly! ) I've never found myself in a situation where a male patient is uncomfortable with a female nurse. I have a of male colleagues that has been restricted because the female patient has requested another female rather than a male.
I see it as more than a privacy issue which I completely understand from a patient's point of view
I personally believe that the reluctance on men being involved in childcare is the poor social status and commensurate salary given with that. Put that status alongside the stigma of 'all men being potential abusers' and it takes a brave men to step into the fray.
I personally believe that if childcare and child development were given the support it deserves and people really understand that 'Give me the child till the age of seven and I will show you the man" we would be more supportive of parents who are intending to raise healthy human beings, by staying at home, investing in good quality childcare, by putting children first and supporting those who do etc. In changing our attitude to children and young people we will only then go some way to drawing a firm line between between abuse, potential abuse and those who are passionate about improving 'things' in any care setting.
My son had a male childminder because he was the one who did the most 'stuff' as a childminder. His childcare abilities were what drew me to him and his passion for young people.
I personally believe that if childcare and child development were given the support it deserves and people really understand that 'Give me the child till the age of seven and I will show you the man" we would be more supportive of parents who are intending to raise healthy human beings, by staying at home, investing in good quality childcare, by putting children first and supporting those who do etc. In changing our attitude to children and young people we will only then go some way to drawing a firm line between between abuse, potential abuse and those who are passionate about improving 'things' in any care setting.
My son had a male childminder because he was the one who did the most 'stuff' as a childminder. His childcare abilities were what drew me to him and his passion for young people.
sometimes i think we are all guilty of judging a book by its cover, i always thought the "perfect" childminder was a married woman in late 30's early 40's with kids of her own, i then got a state registered childminder who was a woman early 40's around 20 stone covered in tattoos and a lesbian lol she lived with her lesbian lover. but she was probably the best childminder my kids ever had so on this one i would say i certainly wouldnt mind a male childminder at all
Sex God
Quote by splendid_
I personally believe that the reluctance on men being involved in childcare is the poor social status and commensurate salary given with that. Put that status alongside the stigma of 'all men being potential abusers' and it takes a brave men to step into the fray.
I personally believe that if childcare and child development were given the support it deserves and people really understand that 'Give me the child till the age of seven and I will show you the man" we would be more supportive of parents who are intending to raise healthy human beings, by staying at home, investing in good quality childcare, by putting children first and supporting those who do etc. In changing our attitude to children and young people we will only then go some way to drawing a firm line between between abuse, potential abuse and those who are passionate about improving 'things' in any care setting.
My son had a male childminder because he was the one who did the most 'stuff' as a childminder. His childcare abilities were what drew me to him and his passion for young people.
Great post Splendid. As always, hitting the nail squarely on the head.
This subject is close to home for me. I can work with children, I have the qualifications & up to date police check (that tells you something for a start). I choose not to do so, partly because I am able to earn my living another way and be there for my children when needed, but also because I am terrified of many peoples perception's of men (and also women) who want to work with children.
Here's a little test:-
In a nursery class, there are is a class of 30 children with a male nursery assistant and a female nursery teacher. One child comes home complaining that their pants were taken down and they were slapped twice on the behind with a ruler. What would you do if this was your child?
Go in on the bounce to sort it yourself face to face? Call the school and demand their immediate sacking? Call the police? Call the local thug to come round to school with his baseball bat? Tell other parents of the kind of things that happen in "that" nursery? These are understandable reactions for many and an easy one to understand for parents hugely protective of their children, so you may do any number of the above things to protect your child, and others from the monsters. Or you may not and risk letting a beast abuse your child and get away with it.
And then it turns out that it was another child that did it, or that it didn't actually happen, they just made it up because they knew that they could "get back" at the teacher or assistant because they'd not allowed the child to get away with inappropriate behaviour.
But it is too late, the damage is already done. The accusation thrown, the mud slung, the reputation sullied. The suspicion in place. Could you work at your place of work if all your colleagues even had the slightest thought that you may be abusing the most vulnerable people in society? Then imagine that and spending all your working day with the people you supposedly "abuse", wondering if everything you do is being seen in that light? Every smile, pat of reassurance, positive remark, is seen less as increasing a child's confidence and motivation, but as a sick sinister act of "grooming"? of some kind.
The phrase "all men are potential abusers" sums it up perfectly. It is that attitude which keeps me from doing the job I would love, and would be good at. I've done it before, I've got the reports to say I am good at it, which quite frankly are worthless to me, I've had the kids come up to me at the end of my time at a place wishing I could stay, which means everything.
But until it is safe for me to give a crying child a hug and tell them it is ok and not to worry, we can fix their cut knee, without worrying if a parent walking by will see this and construe it as something sinister, then it is not an area I will venture into.
Reachers post is also entirely accurate and well put. Children need positive male role models in all aspects of their life, other than "dad" (and there is no guarantee dad will be a perfect role model for many) from an early age and in today's society they are in increasingly short supply.
I'm not saying make it easy for the sick and perverted, but this concept of generalisation is one of the great failings within our society. Is every Muslim a terrorist? Is every male who works with children a potential abuser? Is every black guy well endowed? Is every Italian great in bed? Every asylum seeker unjustly here in the country? Every person of foreign race we see out in the streets trying to steal "our" jobs? Do the French smell and hate England? Is every Conservative MP a Hitler acolyte? Every Labour MP a politically correct, sandal wearing tree-hugger with no idea of how to serve the electorate?
So Flower, you're comment about men working with kids not being "quite right" is probably about right. Certainly as society views it. As someone who brought up his kids from when they were tiny babies, I am well aware that this is not a man's domain. From every trip to the shops when I needed to change nappies, and would have to take the child into the disabled toilet to do so, or bring a female with me so they could go and do it if required in the baby-changing facilities, which are often inside the women's toilets, to looking at the "coffee morning for mums" with kids, and realising I didn't have the right wedding tackle to attend.
The problem isn't in the people, it is in the implicit generalisation of the horrible intentions of the very few, over the entirely honourable intentions of the very many. We believe we are protecting the children, but in doing so, you are alienating an entire section of society without foundation, based on supposition and generalisation making their position almost untenable.
It also has something to do with the " social conditioning ",most of us have had.
Childcare has always been seen as a female role, in the same way that typists, were always seen that way.
Mrs777 was in childcare for a number of years, and very rarely saw a male in her line of work. We have teachers don't we? Cannot see the difference between childcare and teaching to be honest.
IF the person is good at their job, it should not make one jot of a difference, if they are male or female but.....because of that " social conditioning ", a lot still think it a bit strange why men would want to get into that line of work.
I don't think I would have had a problem when my kids were young, but I would have thought it a bit odd, a guy would want to do it. But then again my kids were kids many years ago and things have changed.
Childcare has always been seen as a female role, in the same way that typists, were always seen that way.
Mrs777 was in childcare for a number of years, and very rarely saw a male in her line of work. We have teachers don't we? Cannot see the difference between childcare and teaching to be honest.
IF the person is good at their job, it should not make one jot of a difference, if they are male or female but.....because of that " social conditioning ", a lot still think it a bit strange why men would want to get into that line of work.
I don't think I would have had a problem when my kids were young, but I would have thought it a bit odd, a guy would want to do it. But then again my kids were kids many years ago and things have changed.
what people need to remember is that, unfortunatley, women can and are abusers - just like men can be
We need CRB checks in place for people that are going to work with our children - regardless of gender
And the results speak for themselves - give a child, again any gender, a positive male rolemodel - teacher, carer, parent, uncle, whoever - and that child will fare much better than those without a postive male role model in their life
Males within education & caring roles throughout the Early Years professions has dramatically declined over the recent years - and in part IMHO it is because of this perceived 'males more likely to abuse' attitude (again in IMHO pushed and backed by the media)
As far as i've seen - women are just as likely if not more so in some circumstances - to be the abuser
We need CRB checks in place for people that are going to work with our children - regardless of gender
And the results speak for themselves - give a child, again any gender, a positive male rolemodel - teacher, carer, parent, uncle, whoever - and that child will fare much better than those without a postive male role model in their life
Males within education & caring roles throughout the Early Years professions has dramatically declined over the recent years - and in part IMHO it is because of this perceived 'males more likely to abuse' attitude (again in IMHO pushed and backed by the media)
As far as i've seen - women are just as likely if not more so in some circumstances - to be the abuser
Mikes son wanted to work in a child care nursery 15 years ago, he was strongly advised against it, by his teachers at that time.
I used to put my kids in a gyms child care facility regularly when they were younger, only one man worked there, the kids flocked to him like bees around a honey pot, he was amazing with the kids!
More men should be encouraged to work with children, and it not be seen to be deemed not the right thing to do!
As most men, may end of as the main providers in a relationship though, when they end up having children themselves, the pay is not that good, so maybe thats why more are not seeking that type of work.
I would be happy to of had a man care for my children, and often had friends sons to baby sit for ours when they were young.
Lucys post.
I used to put my kids in a gyms child care facility regularly when they were younger, only one man worked there, the kids flocked to him like bees around a honey pot, he was amazing with the kids!
More men should be encouraged to work with children, and it not be seen to be deemed not the right thing to do!
As most men, may end of as the main providers in a relationship though, when they end up having children themselves, the pay is not that good, so maybe thats why more are not seeking that type of work.
I would be happy to of had a man care for my children, and often had friends sons to baby sit for ours when they were young.
Lucys post.
Sex God
I would quite happily leave my son with a male child minder if he could do the job well, Actually if I had to leave him in the care of a child minder now I would definitely think about looking for a man more so than a women at this point.
All kids can benefit from having male and female input in their lives and at the age my son is a male influence would probably do him good.
Any males wanting to go into childcare I say go for it :thumbup:
All kids can benefit from having male and female input in their lives and at the age my son is a male influence would probably do him good.
Any males wanting to go into childcare I say go for it :thumbup:
Sex God
Quote by kentswingers777
It also has something to do with the " social conditioning ",most of us have had.
Childcare has always been seen as a female role, in the same way that typists, were always seen that way.
Mrs777 was in childcare for a number of years, and very rarely saw a male in her line of work. We have teachers don't we? Cannot see the difference between childcare and teaching to be honest.
IF the person is good at their job, it should not make one jot of a difference, if they are male or female but.....because of that " social conditioning ", a lot still think it a bit strange why men would want to get into that line of work.
I don't think I would have had a problem when my kids were young, but I would have thought it a bit odd, a guy would want to do it. But then again my kids were kids many years ago and things have changed.
There's certainly a degree of that "social conditioning" you mentioned contributing towards it Mr K, I agree with you there. However it is different to see a man doing a job which you would "expect" to be done by a woman and thinking "He's doing that? How strange!" to thinking "He's doing that? Why? Why does he want to be near children? That's not quite right is it?" I think over the past 10 or 20 years, the gap between those two ways of thinking has shrunk enormously and the leap between the two is now far easier to make for many.
As for the difference between Childcare and teaching, I think with childcare the primary focus is on the care aspect. In education it is on the care and education of the child. That does a great disservice at times to many superb practitioners in the field of childcare who often provide wonderful learning opportunities for children. Something which, at long last, seems to be being recognised by the powers that be. Long overdue as it is. In addition to the professional differences in terms of qualifications, probably the only difference I can see is that childcare can be less structured than the learning environment within school. I am speaking here of childcare groups, pre-school nurseries, after school clubs. Of course for individuals who look after children, they have their own standards of Ofsted criteria to pass, but the onus is on the welfare and safety of the child, with only a cursory glance towards the educational aspect with no remit to be questioned upon why children have "failed" under your care. Teachers are under that pressure on a day to day basis. So I think in that situation it differs quite considerably. That is not to say it is not a hugely worthwhile and rewarding job that impacts positively on a great many children and should be actively encouraged and rewarded accordingly.
As you say, in an ideal world it should not matter who does the job, other than the right person. Be them Male, Female, Black, White, Asian, Welsh, Italian, Belgian etc. However in some fields of work who you are puts you under added scrutiny through no fault of your own. That isn't the fault of the worker, but rather the assumptions made, often quite wrongly, about them.
Just remembered something.....
Some friends of mine 20 years ago, came around to our house, my little 5 year old cutie daughter sat on his knee and they were happy, just chatting and having fun, he adored her and she him.
When I went out of the room, I heard his wife say, you shouldn't do that, it doesnt look right!!
That as 20 years ago, a different world to the one we live in today.
Of course, me being me, went straight in and said, I dont have any problems!
What a world!!
Some friends of mine 20 years ago, came around to our house, my little 5 year old cutie daughter sat on his knee and they were happy, just chatting and having fun, he adored her and she him.
When I went out of the room, I heard his wife say, you shouldn't do that, it doesnt look right!!
That as 20 years ago, a different world to the one we live in today.
Of course, me being me, went straight in and said, I dont have any problems!
What a world!!
i work in childcare/education and i feel the main reason very few men work in nurseries is the low pay, i am experienced and have quailifications yet i only earn £11,000 a year and i work in one of the highest paid establishments in the local area !!
there does seem to be a stigma attached to men working in some areas of childcare/education tho which is a shame
my own children were looked after my me and their dad mostly with grandparents helping at times but i used a childminder for a few hours a week for a short time and i would have been happy for them to go to a male childminder if he was the best person for the job at the time
there does seem to be a stigma attached to men working in some areas of childcare/education tho which is a shame
my own children were looked after my me and their dad mostly with grandparents helping at times but i used a childminder for a few hours a week for a short time and i would have been happy for them to go to a male childminder if he was the best person for the job at the time
Sex God
Quote by Reacher359
Hi Flower
Please dont take this personally but I have to say i'm rather sad reading your post, a report made by NCH the childrens charity and now called action for children show a decrease in men volunteering in the childrens sector, this has meant Beavers/cubs/scouts have been forced to close as well as schools being unable to provide male mentoring to male children and young adults.
Have a look at this link a summery of the report by the times
I may be wrong and this is only my opinion but I belive that part of the problem our sociaty has with young male adults including gangs, knife crime, the hoody culture and teenage pregnices are that there are very few men in the child and young adult socal area, this includes the usual clubs as mentioned above and the social worker careers,
as we know there are some poor parents out there and there are are young people who have trouble communicating with there parents, if they have somebody to talk to outside of there parents then maybe some of the above would be stopped, after all very few girls would talk openly about there initial puberty/sexual changes with a man so do we expect the boy to talk to a women and be open and honest, I dont think so because of the embaresent factor.
Anyway i think i'm starting to ramble a bit so I will sign off, but after alot of thinking and typing, I will also say a cracking post to start the debate.
Regards
Reacher
Fantastic post!
Quote by danne-gary
i work in childcare/education and i feel the main reason very few men work in nurseries is the low pay, i am experienced and have quailifications yet i only earn £11,000 a year and i work in one of the highest paid establishments in the local area !!
there does seem to be a stigma attached to men working in some areas of childcare/education tho which is a shame
my own children were looked after my me and their dad mostly with grandparents helping at times but i used a childminder for a few hours a week for a short time and i would have been happy for them to go to a male childminder if he was the best person for the job at the time
That is a valid point but....I could use the secretary or personel PR. Most of those jobs fall to women, and the pay is much better.
I do not know of a high powered business man, who has a male secretary, who does the typing. Anyway women are so much better at " dicktation " I feel.
Orgasminator
As long as my child was being looked after how they should be, I wouldn't care if the childminder was male or female
Great post!!!
I work in the youth service and am the senior member of staff responsible for my youth club. We have had so many challenges in the 18 months of opening that has led to the club being closed for 3 months. These challenges coming from boys aged 14+. we have now found a new venue and I still have the same staff who are determined to 'win the battle' with me. This in itself leaves a problem. The 'boys' are extremely aggressive and determined to damage everything in their path hence why we have had to find a new venue. Including myself, I have a staff of 3 which are all female. I have asked for a male worker as many of the young people we work with have no male role models in thier lives. Can I get a male worker..hell no!!! There no sich thing in the youth service. Men are just not applying for the jobs and if they do, they have little experience. As it happens, my line manager now has to work with us as the RISK ASSESSMENT says I cannot open without a male worker.
20 years ago when I was going to youth clubs, most of the leaders were male and it would be very rare to see a female worker especially in the part time service. How times have changed. I would not even say it is the wages that turns men away as in my organisation the minimum pay is £10/hr.
But as the saying goes can't live with a man but can't do without them either lol
Mich
I work in the youth service and am the senior member of staff responsible for my youth club. We have had so many challenges in the 18 months of opening that has led to the club being closed for 3 months. These challenges coming from boys aged 14+. we have now found a new venue and I still have the same staff who are determined to 'win the battle' with me. This in itself leaves a problem. The 'boys' are extremely aggressive and determined to damage everything in their path hence why we have had to find a new venue. Including myself, I have a staff of 3 which are all female. I have asked for a male worker as many of the young people we work with have no male role models in thier lives. Can I get a male worker..hell no!!! There no sich thing in the youth service. Men are just not applying for the jobs and if they do, they have little experience. As it happens, my line manager now has to work with us as the RISK ASSESSMENT says I cannot open without a male worker.
20 years ago when I was going to youth clubs, most of the leaders were male and it would be very rare to see a female worker especially in the part time service. How times have changed. I would not even say it is the wages that turns men away as in my organisation the minimum pay is £10/hr.
But as the saying goes can't live with a man but can't do without them either lol
Mich
